And so it* begins...
* it = twentyfive having a brilliant time watching certain TUSCL posters write 10,000 word treatises** explaining what Donald J. Trump is doing!
** 10,000 word treatises with footnotes linking readers to InfoWars and images scanned from their original medium (crayon on Chick-fil-a wrapper)
This is just plain unbelievable, I never in my lifetime thought I’d see a president of the United States defer to an such an obvious adversary. He shamed us all, this is a disgrace.
You mean our president standing next to Vladimir Putin and at a press conference, praising Putin, criticizing the FBI and ranting on about Hillary, who's just a private citizen at this point. Despite the fact that Trump appointed Rosenstein. And despite the fact that both Rosenstein and Meuller are life-long Republicans with impeccable credentials.
Balless Republicans in congress right now.
I actually have enjoyed Trump as president, I would vote for him again today. One of the most enjoyable things recently is watching the democrats heads explode. I have a college buddy that I believe literally sucked Obamas dick every day for 8 years and now every day he predicts the apocolypse with Trump.
Nicole1994 should have been elected over trump fa sho and will steal a Senate seat one day bc the art of poltics is not something that is merely my hobby to engage in, but something i have thrived doing since day 1. Have a nice day ppl.
So what should our President have done? Dragged out the indicted Russians? Really? TDS is running deep in the Democratic Party. He at least is proud of the USA not like our last President and the majority of the Democrat party in office right now. MAGA.
Whatever it was must have looked terrible for the Democrats. They haven't freaked out this hard since the best-ever black unemployment results were released a couple of months ago.
I see so standing on foreign soil with the head of state of our main adversary and criticizing our intelligence services is a good look according to you jackasses, sorry guys you are wrong and this is as disgusting as can be.
You can wrap a turd in colored paper but the package still smells like shit.
Stop with the equivalency bullshit, this man is now in the White House, I’m not talking about any one else, you faggots are just afraid to face the truth, this president needs to be held accountable. Stand up for what is right.
Honestly I hope the Russians did help Trump win, I hope they help every Republican win for the next 100 years to keep the whinny little faggot douchebag hippy liberals out of office until they all die off.
Oh no, McCaine who is old as fuck and a brain cancer retard, that no Republican wants in our party, said trumps an ahole, oh God, what will we do?
Suck my cock liberals, we'll keep winning, you keep crying yourself to sleep. Russia helping trump was the most patriotic thing a communist has ever done for this country, and we had 8 years of a communist fuck right before Trump took over.
The truth? The truth is that Trump is a joke... and so was the previous guy. But at least Trump is funny. That's the truth.
Listen, you don't have to convince me. After Trump took out Mark Sanford last month, my mind is totally made up. I say Trump can't be trusted, and I won't vote for him in 2020. Period. (As if my vote matters.)
But Trump's assault on the US intelligence community is really to be expected at this point. It's nothing new. Here's the headline: Lowlife from Queens tries to cover his own ass. In other news, dog bites man. Who exactly is surprised by this?
But what's truly remarkable is the level of hypocrisy shown by both sides, and that's what's really sickening. If Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama had been accused of half the things that we've witnessed Trump doing over the past few years, Sean Hannity would be frothing at the mouth and Lou Dobbs would have launched himself into orbit by now... and meanwhile the Democrats would be defending "their" president to the death. This is a truly disgusting display of human indecency. People are flawed frightened little creatures, but never more so than when they run for office or support a candidate. You can see this with your own eyes every time we talk about politics here on TUSCL. The trolls here on TUSCL are sadly representative of the country at large.
@Burlington's non-stop shtick: "If you're critical of anything Trump does, I'll dig up something that proves you're a hypocrite."
@Burlington, I do predict that you'll be a bachelor for the rest of your life. Better take good care of that 401K, because when you do get sick, you won't have a spouse or society help with your pre-existing condition. You'll die a miserable death and shrivel up into a corpse -- but at least you can champion your Libertarian gibberish to your very last breath.
Both McCain and Ryan are coming down on Trump and many other are just merely silent. Part of McCain's statement:
"Today’s press conference in Helsinki was one of the most disgraceful performances by an American president in memory. The damage inflicted by President Trump’s naiveté, egotism, false equivalence, and sympathy for autocrats is difficult to calculate."
Coming close on the heels of President Trump’s bombastic and erratic conduct towards our closest friends and allies in Brussels and Britain, today’s press conference marks a recent low point in the history of the American Presidency. That the president was attended in Helsinki by a team of competent and patriotic advisors makes his blunders and capitulations all the more painful and inexplicable. “No prior president has ever abased himself more abjectly before a tyrant. "
One of the interesting things about the Trump cheering section, is they mainly use sucking coke as a way to refute what we are say, not sure if that’s a deep repressed desire on their part to Suck Putin’s Cock or if it’s the fact that there’s a pee tape where D Trump is the star, in Putin’s jacket pocket.
@RandomMember,
That's very hurtful LOL. Not that you aren't probably correct. But your post proves that you have Trump Derangement Syndrome. If you've been reading all my posts, you would see that I frequently point out the hypocrisy in people who criticize Obama and Clinton, too. I don't see where I'm biased in Trump's favor. I criticize that Doritos-colored retard every time we talk about him. Just read my last post if you don't believe me.
All I'm asking for is a little consistency. And it would be great if people would stop acting as though everything is so unprecedented. I don't think that's too much to ask. The difference between me and everyone else here (and on planet earth) is that I can remember things that happened before the last election cycle. I guess that's my super power.
^ "this president needs to be held accountable. "
Needs to be held accountable?
For what, making America great again?
Are you advocating for him to be reelected?
So, there’s a sociopath with a Napoleon complex that you need to persuade. If you succeed, you can end wars and save hundreds of thousands of lives. You can either
1. Flatter him in public while being frank in private about how you can find common ground.
2. Insult him in public and call him a liar.
Which of these approaches during a first meeting will persuade him to work with you ? The majority of voters understand this. It’s common sense.
Incidentally, this analysis applies to both Kim Jung Un and Putin.
We just assume if you are a liberal, you're more likely to be gay and suck cocks than a Republican. Most gays are liberal, and 50ish % of women are liberal, thus cock sucking is likely. Also 25, u like sucking cocks, so that adds to the cock sucking comments. Hope u get ass cancer u fucking douch.
Here’s a prediction. Ending the war in Syria would benefit everyone but Iran.
Within one year, we will reach a peace agreement giving the Kurds territory in eastern Syria, the Israelis a more secure border, Russians with a presence and port in Western Syria ( leaving Assad in nominal control), give Turkey a little territory, and keep a safe zone in central Syria so refugees can return. Iran would be forced to remove its troops from Syria and end support for Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in Gaza.
This will all be traced back to today’s “horrible” summit.
This character has done what I thought no one could do.... embarrass the United States in Foreign Policy even more than W. I'm actually amazed at how he continues to stand out among all the world leaders who came before him.
The Russians are our enemy. Period. Have been since WW2. Kissing the ass of that despicable piece of shit slob Putin was an embarrassment. How about some of you try being fucking Americans for a change? Just because progressives suck is no excuse to put up with this spineless bullshit. Fuck you Donald. Pussy and traitor.
@mark94,
"If you succeed, you can end wars and save hundreds of thousands of lives."
I know I've only asked you this about a dozen times, but why should the United States be trying to end wars and save lives in foreign countries? And if Trump wants to end the war in Syria and leave Assad in control, then why did he bomb Syria twice already?
Mark you’ve made a bunch of predictions, none of them have been correct yet, I especially enjoyed your stock market predictions how your portfolio now ?
There were rumors that part of a grand peace deal in Syria would be pulling all our troops out of Syria.
Trump’s plan, in Asia, the Middle East, and elsewhere is to form regional alliances that would take over for us in keeping the peace.
If, through negotiation, we can cause stability and peace throughout the world, at no cost in blood to the US ( present or future), that’s worth the diplomatic effort.
maybe Trump is doing the right thing, he completely understands that the US has not won a war since WWII. We arent that big and mighty, thats why illegal immigration scares us , we have to play nice now. Vietnam War, was a failure, Iraq Was a failure. When you pull out of a war, it used to be called "Retreat." Trump is sacrificing himself to save American lives in order to avoid another war.
@ Salty this bullshit about illegal immigration is just a distraction, you know where there is very little illegal immigration, that’s right Russia, as a matter of fact there are a few Russians here illegally. Bet you a bunch actually.
@txtittyfag,
I really hope you don't do a job that requires reading comprehension or a good memory. Barack Obama also intervened in foreign countries, including Lybia, Yemen, Somalia, 100,000+ troops in Afghanistan, drones over Pakistan, special forces in Pakistan and West Africa, etc. I was totally against it then and I'm totally against it now. America doesn't need an empire. As long as it doesn't directly affect us we should just let the chips fall where they may. Also, I'm actually a registered Republican. In fact, I voted for your homestate senator, Ted Cruz, in the primary two years ago.
Trump, Pompeo, Mattis, Bolton, and Haley are playing 3 dimensional chess on the world stage, cleaning up the mess that the last 4 presidents gave us. It will probably take Trump both his terms to clean up 30 years of mistakes.
In the Middle East, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, Kurdish regions, and Israel are allied against Iran. Trump is now working to convince Russia to oppose Iran. The Iranian economy is in shambles and there are protests against the Ayatollahs nightly. We see the broad outlines of a peace deal that will take place in the Middle East once the ayatollahs fall from power.
Something similar is taking shape in Asia, with Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, and other nations serving as a counter balance to China. There are signs of a slowing Chinese economy as capital flows out of China. The government is trying to get the underground banking system under control before bad loans cause a collapse on a massive scale.
Today’s meeting with Putin, flattery and all, was just one more step in this grand, multi-year, plan.
I gotta say I'm a bit shocked that the libtards who are always advocating for socialistic ideals now have an issue with Russia. Even though there is no evidence of collusion on Trump's part, it is the hate for him that has the libs all confused.
@mark94,
It feels like more of the same. More neoconservatism, more picking winners and losers, more intervening in the affairs of other countries.
And I haven't seen any evidence that Iran is worse than Saudi Arabia. So why should we support Saudi Arabia against Iran?
And if you're so against multilateral trade deals, then why would you support multilateral diplomatic deals? If one of these deals fails we might be obligated to go to war, or else look weak (remember the "red line" in Syria?). It would be no different than Nato.
I'm not listening to the news. However about every day I hear democrats complaining about trump
Same story another day. Every other day they complain about the Russians
Obama blew the Russians off saying The Russians and weren't going to have any significant impact on elections. Obama was right. The people voted and Russia did not electronically change any votes Confine complaining.
Rare, good post from @SkiBirther and the criticism of Trump's behavior should be bipartisan. And it is bipartisan for the most part. Chief of Staff Kelly (who lost a son in Afghanistan) should take this as an opportunity to resign. He was probably going to resign anyway, and this would send the right message.
Every President since FDR has met with the Soviet Leader, for good reason. Between us, we have 90% of the world’s nuclear weapons. A relationship is necessary to prevent Armageddon.
But, the media says that when Trump meets with Putin, it’s treason. Just one more sign of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
After the 2018 election, I hope Trump fires the top 3 layers of the Federal bureaucracy in the State Department, DOJ, FBI, CIA, IRS, ..... It’s the deep state that is committing treason.
Drain the swamp.
^^ as usual, you are complete idiot @Mark93. In the simplest possible terms, Trump went on TV and told the world that he trusts Vladimir Putin more than out own FBI. What a dipshit.
One thing is very clear, the Trump supporters here never knew Ronald Reagan, President Reagan had a sense of humor and some class, these guys really don’t have a clue. This is disheartening and sad.
^ And the Trump bashers don't remember the hate that the libtards felt towards Reagan during his Presidency. It was almost as bad as it is for Trump now. Time will tell.
^ You are partially right but Mr Reagan, handled them easily, he knew how to be a POTUS, and as a result this country was better for his Presidency. He saw the USA as a shining coy on a hill, Trump sees this country as something for him to put a bumper sticker with gold plated letters on.
Are people forgetting about how Obama went on an "apology tour"..... So how is what Trump did anything different.
1. He didn't apologize. But said he believes in what Putin is telling him. So trying to make peace or open dialogue.
2. He is throwing shade on the whole Collusion BS. What I mean is he is saying he didn't do anything wrong. Did you also notice how Putin will "co-operate" with finding the indited individuals. So they can be questioned. I know they will never step on US soil. But maybe this will get them to be questioned. Is that Progress??
3. I totally dont agree with Trump saying our intel. agency's are BS or how ever he worded it. That is wrong for him to do.
Same shit different day.
He could announce his plan to end world hunger and his critics would say he was destroying America. He could get on TV and shit on the flag and his supporters would say he's making America great again.
@Burlington: "You're absolutely right, that basically sums it up"
-------------
No, not really. I think it's fairly easy to demonstrate bipartisan condemnation, with some of the most powerful GOP leaders like McCain, Ryan, and McConnel giving support to the FBI. You'll always get some emasculated GOP congressmen willing to take any amount disgusting behavior from Trump if it means getting tax cuts or conservative appointments to the Supreme Court.
Wouldn't be surprised if Mueller wraps things up before the midterms. Trump's campaign manager Manafort is in jail and there's a good chance that Michael Cohen will flip on Trump. Cohen's very close to Trump and probably knows his dirtiest secrets. Let's see what happens in the next month or two. If nothing comes out of it, then fine -- we move on.
Last Friday’s indictment of 12 Russians made it clear that no American was involved in any way. They handed these indictments off to the Counter Intelligence division of the DOJ, which has no ability to bring criminal charges against Americans.
After 18 months, Mueller has found nothing against Trump. The indictments he got against Manafort and others have nothing to do with the campaign. This fantasy of impeaching Trump is going away fast.
On the other hand, it’s clear Hillary broke all sorts of laws. And, now that Trump has buddied up with Putin, the Russians may turn over the evidence, including the 30,000 missing Hillary emails and the contents of the DNC server.
The resistance has begun to panic. That explains the faux outrage over Helsinki. Trump is here to stay.
Marks point is that Trump was not a co conspirator with Putin in meddleing in the 2016 US election. However, the Russians did meddle in the US Election, but as long as Trump is clean, who cares about the United States. i think people are upset about knowing that the russians interfered and Trump not saying anything yesterday. Instead he attacked US Law Enforcement. He should have said something like we will get to the bottom of this and hold everyone accountable.
@RandomMember,
"If nothing comes out of it, then fine -- we move on."
What do you mean 'move on'? You mean you'll stop believing there was collusion? Or you'll stop caring whether the Russians intervened? I doubt it. You know, you and the Trumptards have one thing in common: you both want to play by the same old set of rules.
The rules say that foreigners can't participate in our elections. But why? Have you ever even bothered to ask yourself this question? Shouldn't the Russians be entitled to express their opinions and to lie about things on the internet, just like everyone else does?
I'll never understand the mentality that says that it's perfectly ok for Russians to move to America, and it's perfectly ok for Russian-Americans to express their opinions in America, and it's perfectly ok to hire Russian-Americans in America... but don't you dare hire Russians in Russia to work on your campaign because that's treason! It just seems so ridiculous to me.
If Putin had moved to Brighton Beach to write a blog about the 2016 election, no one would try to stop him. But a bunch of trolls in Russia write some nonsense online and everyone completely loses their shit over it. Maybe Trump broke the law, maybe he didn't. But THESE ARE STUPID LAWS!
It's amazing, I can't even get Trump supporters to agree with me about this, because A) they have an irrational prejudice against foreigners to begin with, even when the foreigners appear to be helping their silly cause, and B) people have such an ingrained bias in favor of doing things the same way we always have. Everyone shouts about wanting change but then they don't really want to change a single thing, they just want to rearrange the deck chairs a little bit.
At some point, you're going to have to decide how much you really care about democracy. If democracy is so fragile and if people are so stupid that they are susceptible to believing nonsense about Hillary Clinton running a child sex-ring out of a pizzeria (which is what the Russian troll-bots were claiming)... then just admit it, you don't really believe in democracy. You believe people are too stupid to be trusted to vote. It's ok to admit this. This is not an illegitimate position to hold.
Lastly, yes, Ryan and McCain have criticized Trump. But they are not the majority and they are not the base. And most Republican congressmen don't care nearly as much about tax cuts and judges as you might think... they care about getting re-elected. And their base loves Trump and thinks the sun shines out of his ass. If President Dipshit came out in favor of higher taxes and liberal judges tomorrow, his base would still cheer... and any congressman who cares about his career would swallow it or ignore it. Keep watching Trump's behavior after the midterms. If the Democrats take both chambers of congress, Trump's behavior will suddenly turn on a dime and no one will even remember the vaguely conservative policies of 2017. You'll see.
Has no one ever heard the phrase “ praise in public and criticize in private”. Trump said he discussed the hacking at length in his private meeting.
Trump wants to negotiate with Putin on several areas, including nukes and Syria. If he had belittled Putin in public, that would have put an end to any dialogue.
If you didn’t like something your boss did, would the best strategy be to call your boss an asshole in front of his staff, or to talk with him in private ?
@mark94,
You may be accurate... but when Obama did the same exact thing, most Republicans said he was coddling dictators, cozying up to our enemies, and apologizing for America. Is Trump's behavior really any different?
@Burlington, the Russian government hacked into the servers of the DNC and Hillary's private Google email account. Are you really saying that we should sit back and let foreign governments do whatever they want? That's ludicrous. Creating fake stories on social media is far more benign -- but yes we should try to thwart that, too. It's true that voters believe all sorts of horseshit (e.g. birtherism or climate-change hoax) and there's not that much you can do about propaganda, whatever the source.
I doubt very much the Dems will win the Senate, but they presently have a good chance of taking the House:
[view link]
The "generic ballot" currently has the Democrats ahead by 9 percentage points. That sounds like a landslide, but the best statistical models show that Dems need at least 6 percentage points to take back the House ( because of the way districts are dawns and gerrymandering). There's a very detailed analysis of this in the current Economist.
There's plenty of noise in the generic ballot polls, too, and anything could happen by November.
Walking back a statement shows a grand master plan, I don’t know whether to laugh out loud or cry.
You guys supporting this guy are a bunch of marks, if anyone is interested I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale. (Mark 94 is included in bunch of)
The issue for me is this... I do not agree with everything Trump says or does..... I agree with more of it than I did the last fucking jackass in the presidency, Obama cost me a shitload of money and still has his hand in my pocket. My cost of doing business went up by more than 120 thousand dollars per year with his financial regulations (I had to hire one person strictly to deal with the regulations and an increase in the E&O insurance) Next tack on a tripling of health insurance premiums and you can see why I'm pissed with the previous administration.
While I don't agree with Trump on everything I am really tired of the bitching and moaning by people who for the most part contribute very little to society. If you receive more in benefits than you pay in taxes (with the exception of retirees) then you should not have a say in the way money is spent.
So keep on whining like a little bitch, its funny to me
@Dadillac I am sure that Obama cost you a bundle, wait till the bill gets here from Trump, between the Tariffs, the unpaid for tax cuts, and the millions thrown off health care, that’s gonna blow a hole in the budgets down the road that we may never recover from. I hope I’m wrong but I don’t think so.
BTW I pay as much in taxes as anyone here, receive no benefits at all, next year I’ll be eligible for Medicare, but I intend to defer my SS till I’m 70, 5 & 1/2 years from now.
The majority of my income is based on how well the stock market is doing, so while the market was doing poorly obama added a ton of expenses, kinda like a double whammy.... and those expenses were industry specific. I can see that there will be increased expenses post trump but they will be shared by all of us, certainly high income earners will pay more but nothing like the shit I just went through.
Imagine cutting your income by 40% and increasing your expenses by 120k per year. and that still does not include Health insurance that went from 800 a month to 2300 a month with a huge deductible.
I hated what he did to this country and me specifically.... So when I looked at Hillary I saw 4 more years of that bullshit. And now the anti trump people are bitching about every fucking thing
As for you, I'm sure you do pay your taxes and I will listen to you but the people just suckling the government tit, fuck them
^market is imploding lately, every time it starts to get a foothold and climb out of this mess he opens his fucking mouth and as a result it seems like I’ve given back more than half of of last years gain.
If you can do well in this market fill me in on what I’m doing wrong.
So year to date the S&P 500 is up 3%... if in fact your accounts are "imploding" it has very little to do with the market. So I would guess if you are losing then you are probably trading often and emotionally not based on fundamental or technical analysis because if you were in an index etf you would be up 3 %
Damn! Democrats still crying over the election! I am not too sure many will survive when our President gets re-elected! TDS is going to wipe them all out. Must be a sad life to wake up everyday so bitter. MAGA!
Not trading very much actually, I have reduced my exposure from 75% equities to a 50/50 mix over all I’m + net 2% but it’s becoming difficult the market is losing ground every time he opens his mouth, I hate to say this, but I’m not sure of the moves I’m making lately, I’m thinking of buying in some commercial Real Estare, I already own the building my business is in and collect rent from a dozen other tenants, ranging from 3-7000 square feet warehouse and have the opportunity to buy another 80000 shuare foot building, not really sure if I want to head into retirement as a landlord but I may have to.
@RandomMember,
- "the Russian government hacked into the servers of the DNC and Hillary's private Google email account."
You're right, they did hack the DNC and hacking is a crime. But A) the end result of their hacking was only to reveal the "bad" things that the Democrats said and did in private. Any time a politician's private thoughts and motives are revealed to the voters, that's a good thing in my opinion. So you're not going to get me to feel sorry for Hillary Clinton and John Podesta. While we're at it, perhaps we should also find and prosecute the person who leaked the Access Hollywood Tape, too. It was a private conversation after all, and Trump didn't seem to know he was being recorded.. But whoever leaked it also did the American people a real service, if you ask me, just like the Russians did.
B) There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that this hacking swung the election. In fact, Hillary Clinton was still leading Trump in the polls by double digits AFTER multiple hackings and document dumps. (The only thing that seemed to make a dent in her poll numbers was when Jim Comey reopened the server investigation at the very last minute.)
C) And besides, what should we do about this anyway? Should we go to war every time somebody hacks a server? Should we apply more sanctions? You do realize that sanctions can only hurt the citizens of Russia, not Vladimir Putin himself, right? Does this seem fair to you?
- "Creating fake stories on social media is far more benign -- but yes we should try to thwart that, too."
Really? You want to make it illegal to tell tall tales on the internet? You want to try to stop people from speaking ill of a politician? Good luck with that. I guess you better start by repealing the First Amendment... and then we'll have to lock up half the morons on TUSCL.
- "I doubt very much the Dems will win the Senate, but they presently have a good chance of taking the House"
If the election were held today, I give it 100% odds that the Democrats would win the House and 50% odds that they would win the Senate. As I told mark, I've been watching six key Senate seats that have 50% or greater odds of flipping. Three are currently held by Democrats (Missouri, Indiana, and North Dakota) and three are held by Republicans (Arizona, Nevada, and Tennessee).
Believe me, I would love to unseat Sherrod Brown and Ben Nelson, too, but that's probably not going to happen. It would also be great if we could somehow unseat Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, but that's just a fantasy, it's not even possible. Hell, even my own loathsome homestate Senator Bob Menendez will probably squeak by in November. Lots of things can happen between now and then, of course.
The most likely outcome is for Arizona, Nevada, and North Dakota to all flip, which means the chamber would be split exactly 50-50. With McCain out sick and Pence being needed for every single vote, that would give Democrats de facto control until McCain can be replaced.
I blew by the comments by LittleMember, SirSploogeInHisPantsALot, and the other pseudo-intellectuals so this post might not be exactly on target, but it is my 2 cents.
If I'm not mistaken, the only reason Trump's cronies are in trouble is for making contradictory statements during the witch hunt. Never would have happened without it.
Trump isn't a polished politician, but he is producing.
Trump isn't in this to win popularity contests or to be seen as the coolest guy around. So far his policies have been more targeted to what is best for our country than any president since Reagan.
One thing that benefits Trump is that he is following possibly the worst President in our history.
@twentyfive
having 50 percent in bonds is a death sentence right now. As interest rates climb bond prices fall, giving you a guaranteed loss. You would be better increasing stock exposure or going to an alternative like real estate.
You can always get the indexed cd's also
@Dadillac I only have about 12% in bonds, my 50/50 was meant to be equities and cash equivalents, I do have about 30% in a mix of bonds laddered CDs about maybe 8-10% in cash and a few exotics(private equity and the like) and I’m thinking of liquidating the debentures to raise the cash to buy the property near my own. I’m also a shareholder in two other businesses that one is a former employee and I receive a distribution every quarter from both.
What is all the fuss about? Comrade Trump is doing his job, making Russia great again, which is why Putin put him in office. Everything else is fake news.
I have no idea what is the correct course to take with Russia, but our previous administration did our country no service in their tactical approach, or better explained as to having no approach/strategy at all.
Trump’s tactic is unconventional at best, and reminds me of George Costanza in Seinfeld how doing the opposite of what we think is correct can get better results.
I see a positive in trying to establish a relationship with the Russians because eventually it gets you further as opposed to not making that attempt and fostering contempt. It seems like Trump critics are looking for any excuse to find fault in his ways, even though he’s making more progress than previous presidents.
^ " It seems like Trump critics are looking for any excuse to find fault in his ways, even though he’s making more progress than previous presidents."
Put much more succinctly than I. Thank you.
From a 30,000 feet level, here’s what is going on
1. Democrats were certain that Hillary would win. They wanted to destroy Trump, before and after the election. They spied on, created the phony dossier, and leaked like sieves to friendly journalists.
2. They knew they would never be caught with President Clinton protecting them. In fact, she would promote everyone who had gone after Trump.
3. Holy shit, Trump won. The deep state needed to get him out of office before they were discovered. They maneuvered to have Mueller named as SC. Deep state lawyers in the DOJ convinced Sessions to recuse himself. At the same time, they blocked any request for information that would reveal their crimes.
4. Now, it’s a desperate attempt to stall any investigation in hopes that Democrats win the house and shut down investigations.
If Republicans hold the House and Senate, Trump will begin firing people, starting with Rosenstein. He will put people in place who will reveal all the dirt.
@mark94,
Really? The "Deep State" did all this? Funny, because Mueller was actually appointed by Rosenstein. And Rosenstein was hired by Trump (as was Sessions). So what happened? I thought Trump was going to hire the best people. Is this really the best he can do? I mean, he's being investigated by his own people and he's calling it a witch hunt. If he wants to reveal all the dirt, why didn't he put the right people in place to begin with?
And if Trump is such an outsider, then why is it so easy for the establishment to influence his hiring decisions? If even Trump can be so easily influenced and controlled by the Deep State, then what's the point of having elections in the first place? Oh, I almost forgot... didn't Rosenstein write the memo recommending that James Comey should be fired? I'm having trouble remembering who's supposed to be part of the Deep State and who's supposed to be trying to Make America Great Again.
An even better explanation from the American Spectator
Putin is a bad guy. A really bad guy. He is better than Lenin. Better than Stalin, Khrushchev, Kosygin, Brezhnev, Pol Pot, Mao. But he is a really bad guy.
Here’s the thing: Putin is a dictator. He answers to no one. He does whatever he wants. If there arises an opponent, that guy dies. Maybe the opponent gets poked with a poisoned umbrella. Maybe he gets shot on the street. Maybe the opponent is forced to watch Susan Rice interviews telling the world that Benghazi happened because of a YouTube video seen by nine derelicts in Berkeley and that Bowe Berghdal served with honor and distinction. But, one way or another, the opponent dies.
Trump knows this about Putin. And here is what that means:
If you insult Putin in public, like by telling the newsmedia just before or after meeting with him that he is the Butcher of Crimea, and he messed with our elections, and is an overall jerk — then you will get nothing behind closed doors from Putin. Putin will decide “To heck with you, and to heck with the relationship we just forged.” Putin will get even, will take intense personal revenge, even if it is bad for Russia — even if it is bad for Putin. Because there are no institutional reins on him.
But if you go in public and tell everyone that Putin is a nice guy (y’know, just like Kim Jong Un) and that Putin intensely maintains that he did not mess with elections — not sweet little Putey Wutey (even though he obviously did) — then you next can maintain the momentum established beforehand in the private room. You can proceed to remind Putin what you told him privately: that this garbage has to stop — or else. That if he messes in Syria, we will do “X.” If he messes with our Iran boycott, we will do “Y.” We will generate so much oil from hydraulic fracturing and from ANWR and from all our sources that we will glut the market — if not tomorrow, then a year from now. We will send even more lethal offensive military weapons to Ukraine. We can restore the promised shield to Eastern Europe that Obama withdrew. And even if we cannot mess with Russian elections (because they have no elections), they do have computers — and, so help us, we will mess with their technology in a way they cannot imagine. Trump knows from his advisers what we can do. If he sweet-talks Putin in public — just Putin on the Ritz — then everything that Trump has told Putin privately can be reinforced with action, and he even can wedge concessions because, against that background, Putin knows that no one will believe that he made any concessions. Everyone is set to believe that Putin is getting whatever he wants, that Trump understands nothing. So, in that setting, Putin can make concessions and still save face.
That is why Trump talks about him that way. And that is the only possible way to do it when negotiating with a tyrant who has no checks and balances on him. If you embarrass the tyrant publicly, then the tyrant never will make concessions because he will fear that people will say he was intimidated and backed down. And that he never will do. Meanwhile, Trump has expelled 60 Russians from America, reversed Obama policy and sent lethal weapons to Ukraine, and is pressing Germany severely on its pipeline project with Russia.
More from the Spectator article explaining why the elite think they are smarter than PDT
It really is quite simple. Everyone is smart except Donald J. Trump. That’s why they all are billionaires and all got elected President. Only Trump does not know what he is doing. Only Trump does not know how to negotiate with Vladimir Putin. Anderson Cooper knows how to stand up to Putin. The whole crowd at MSNBC does. All the journalists do.
They could not stand up to Matt Lauer at NBC. They could not stand up to Charlie Rose at CBS. They could not stand up to Mark Halperin at NBC. Nor up to Leon Wieseltier at the New Republic, nor Jann Wenner at Rolling Stone, nor Michael Oreskes at NPR, at the New York Times, or at the Associated Press. But — oh, wow! — can they ever stand up to Putin! Only Trump is incapable of negotiating with the Russian tyrant.
Remember the four years when Anderson Cooper was President of the United States? And before that — when the entire Washington Post editorial staff jointly were elected to be President? Remember? Neither do I.
The Seedier Media never have negotiated life and death, not corporate life and death, and not human life and death. They think they know how to negotiate, but they do not know how. They go to a college, are told by peers that they are smart, get some good grades, proceed to a graduate degree in journalism, and get hired as analysts. Now they are experts, ready to take on Putin and the Iranian Ayatollahs at age 30.
That is not the road to expertise in tough dealing. The alternate road is that, along the way, maybe you get forced into some street fights. Sometimes the other guy wins, and sometimes you beat the intestines out of him. Then you deal with grown-ups as you mature, and you learn that people can be nasty, often after they smile and speak softly. You get cheated a few times, played. And you learn. Maybe you become an attorney litigating multi-million-dollar case matters. Say what you will about attorneys, but those years — not the years in law school, not the years drafting legal memoranda, but the years of meeting face-to-face and confronting opposing counsel — those years can teach a great deal. They can teach how to transition from sweet, gentle, diplomatic negotiating to tough negotiating. At some point, with enough tough-nosed experience, you figure out Trump’s “The Art of the Deal” yourself.
Trump’s voters get him because not only is he we, but we are he. We were not snowflaked-for-life by effete professors who themselves never had negotiated tough life-or-death serious deals. Instead we live in the real world, and we know how that works. Not based on social science theories, not based on “conceptual negotiating models.” But based on the people we have met over life and always will hate. That worst boss we ever had. The coworker who tried to sabotage us. We know the sons of bums whom we survived, the dastardly types who are out there, and we learned from those experiences how to deal with them. We won’t have John Kerry soothe us by having James Taylor sing “You’ve Got a Friend” carols.
The Bushes got us into all kinds of messes. The first one killed the economic miracle that Reagan had fashioned. The second one screwed up the Middle East, where Iraq and Iran beautifully were engaged in killing each other for years, and he got us mired into the middle of the muddle. Clinton was too busy with Monica Lewinsky to protect us from Osama bin Laden when we had him in our sights. Hillary gave us Benghazi and more. And Obama and Kerry gave us the Iran Deal, ISIS run amok, America in retreat. All to the daily praise of a media who now attack Trump every minute of every day.
@mark good post, exactly. Reminds me of a boss i used to have with a mammoth ego. You never ever questioned him in a public or group setting. If you had a disagreement or different perspective, that was handled one on one, mano a mano.
@txtittyfag, Meat72, pistola,
You guys do realize that mark94 didn't actually write that article, right? He says it's from the American Spectator.
@mark94,
Can we all just cut the shit for a second? Maybe Trump is right and maybe he isn't. But how is his behavior towards dictators any different from Bush's and Obama's behavior? If it was disgraceful then, it's still disgraceful now.
If you're all so convinced that Trump has good motives and that kissing a dictator's ass is the best course of action, then you should have felt the same way when Obama did the exact same thing. And yet I'm sure you didn't feel that way. It seems like the only thing that matters to you folks is whether Trump's name is on the deal, not what the deal actually accomplishes.
Obama apologized in public and took no action until the final minutes of his term, just to box in Trump.
Trump is diplomatic in public but tough in private and with actions. Russian diplomats expelled. Two hundred Russian mercenaries killed. Expanded sanctions.
Trump’s approach is completely different from Obama.
Do you really not understand this, or is it Trump Derangement Syndrome kicking in ?
@mark94,
What did Obama apologize for? Are we just talking about Russia? I mean, Trump literally said that America is no better than Russia! Remember when Trump said we kill lots of people, too?
Also, I seem to remember that Obama publicly gave Russia a stupid reset button, but meanwhile he also applied sanctions, expelled their diplomats, seized their property in Maryland and New York, and waged a proxy war with Russia in Syria. And it was under Obama's tenure that the price of oil and gas collapsed, damaging Russia's economy. Trump's policies seem like a continuation of Obama's. And I don't approve of either one.
Are you saying that you want an actual war with Russia? Do you really believe that Putin is so stupid to not know what the US government is doing, only so long as he gets sweet-talked in public? I doubt that an ex-KGB agent can be bought off with cheap flattery.
^ Shit don’t forget Trumps statement a few months back where he said we Americans are killers too, just like Putin, I mean really you Trump apologists just take the fucking cake, you guys are dumber that a sack of rocks.
@mark94,
What am I making up? If you want, I'll post some links to jog your memory. I sometimes don't bother even looking for links because I know no one bothers to read them.
And yes, I do hate Trump. There hasn't been a single president during my entire adult life who I haven't viscerally hated, Trump included. But that doesn't prevent me from acknowledging it whenever he does something that I approve of, or defending him against deranged people who can't seem to remember recent history (both on this forum and IRL).
The thing about Trump supporters is that they seem to delight in the outrage of the media and of their fellow Americans. They think this is striking a blow against the establishment and political correctness somehow. But what they fail to realize is that most of the outrage happens only because Trump supporters behave hypocritically and fail to acknowledge historical accuracy. It may feel gratifying to frustrate your opponents with lies and double-talk, but in the end you are losing potentially sympathetic voters.
When you look up those links, be sure and notice the dates. A lot of the tough action Barack “ Tell Putin I can be more flexible after the election” Obama took was after Trump was elected. He was putting Trump in a box, knowing if he eased the actions, it would support the dossier claims.
Beyond that, he jumped on the sanctions bandwagon after Crimea, but took no further action.
When you look up those links, be sure and notice the dates. A lot of the tough action Barack “ Tell Putin I can be more flexible after the election” Obama took was after Trump was elected. He was putting Trump in a box, knowing if he eased the actions, it would support the dossier claims.
Beyond that, he jumped on the sanctions bandwagon after Crimea, but took no further action.
This will all end soon enough with Trump behind bars. Once he's no longer of any use to Putin, they'll leak the pee tape, which will break the internet.
I’m going to enjoy the next six years of the Trump presidency and the next 20 years of a conservative Supreme Court.
Some of you are going to need some very serious therapy to deal with Trump Derangement Syndrome.
Trump will not be impeached. Trump will not go to jail. He will go down in history as one of the most significant presidents.
@mark94,
Ok, I give up. I know when I'm being trolled. Below are some links. If you skim through them you'll see that most of the action happened long before Trump was elected.
This is on the long-running proxy war between the US and Russia in Syria: [view link]
This is a history of sanctions that the US and its allies have applied to Russia since the invasion of Crimea: [view link]
If you begin with the premise that "I like Trump and therefore I support everything he does," then you're going to end up having to twist yourself into knots trying to defend him. The same can be said of Trump-haters who start with the premise that "I hate Trump and therefore I oppose everything he does." The reason is because most Trump-supporters hate Obama, and most Obama-supporters hate Trump... and yet Trump and Obama have some overlap, especially on foreign policy. So it's easy to start to look like a partisan hypocrite.
You certainly haven't convinced me that Trump's policies represent a major break from those of Obama (or even Bush). This is the petty narcicissm of very small differences. The differences exist but they are small. Overall, I think Trump is a better president than either of those two, but not by much.
And no, he hasn't committed any crimes so I don't think he'll be impeached. In fact, he has a half-way decent chance of getting re-elected. His survival instincts are every bit as good as the average Congressional cockroach. Pity for you, though, because at some point his survival instincts will prompt him to support policies that you won't like. (But then again, as long as it comes from Trump, I guess you'll probably fall in line and learn to love it.)
Ima gonna be civil ask a simple question of the pro Trumpers. Why does he need to meet in secret with Putin, with no close advisors, and no records, transcripts, or anything what secrets do they have in common?
I can tell you this becomes more troubling by the hour, especially since the one thing they have in common is neither one of these men have released their tax returns to the public they serve.
I've learned with Trump to wait a few days/weeks before passing judgement on anything he says----part of it has to do with an understanding the media is going to see the glass as half empty no matter what he attempts to do or accomplishes --their perspective is so blinded by their own agenda at this point--and the other is this is how he has always done things in the private sector and the guy is not going to change.
Do I like it--not really
Did I want him to be president--not really
Did I vote for him---yes I did.
Am I sorry I did--no because the other choice was going to be worse--and yes I mean it ...putting the hildabeast in office would have been an epic disaster on levels Trump can't get to if he tried.
Please keep in mind Obama and Hillary both were kissing Putin's ass just a few short years ago and when Mitt Romney made the statement Russia was our enemy both along with the press roasted his nuts and it in part cost him the election. Obama was even caught on tape whispering to Putin how he would be able to deal with him once he was reelected with no consequences to either man/country..........some people have memory loss......I'm not one of them
It gets more troubling by the hour because you Trump bashers so badly want to see it that way. If it wasn't this y'all would find something else to find fault with him or just call him fat.
He isn't at all tactful or diplomatic. I see where that would ruffle feathers, but it has succeeded for him in the past.
^@flagooner Well lets be fair, is there a legitimate reason for Trump to meet secretly with Putin, let’s put conspiracy theories aside and tell me why his own CIA Director, his own DNI, his own Secretary of State, are all in the dark. I might be able to understand not making the meeting public might be important but really no oversight as to what commitments he might make.
Keep in mind these other Cabinet level appointments are his own people, the leaks are coming from his people or even possibly himself.
One last thing to consider, these people all swore an oath to protect and defend our constitution, not our president.
^ That might be getting into conspiracy theory territory, this is America our government is supposed to answer to us not us to them. Trying to understand where the difference between Trump and Putin lies, so far I see nothing but a petty despot who thinks he’s above the law.
My guess is that Trump isn't being blackmailed by Russia and he isn't a Russian "double-agent." That just seems silly to me. It's more complicated than that.
First, the Republican base has been told for years that France, Germany, England, and Canada are socialist countries whose people hate America. Meanwhile, they were told that Barack Obama was a weak indecisive leader, while Vladimir Putin is a "strongman." So it's a natural progression for a Republican President to oppose our old allies and to be more friendly towards Putin. It was bound to happen eventually - the voters tend to get what they want. Plus Putin absolutely hates Hillary Clinton, and you know the old saying, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Putin clearly preferred Trump during the election, so Trump probably feels *some* sense of gratitude, too.
That doesn't mean that Trump's behavior is acceptable. It's part of a disturbing pattern. I thought it was sickening when Bush held hands with the Saudi Crown Prince; and when Obama was seen laughing and smiling at a baseball game with Raul Castro. It was also really bad when Obama was caught on a hot-mic making promises to Medvedev. And, it's really bad when Trump bowed before a North Korean general and congratulated Putin on his great "election victory." That's all bad stuff and it should never have happened. It proves what a complete joke these three Presidents really are. The USA shouldn't have to soil its hands by getting into bed with these awful countries. We don't need them, so why should we compromise with them?
BUT the good news is that Russia can't do much harm to us. In fact, none of our modern enemies are particularly dangerous anymore. North Korea, Iran, Cuba, and Syria are not serious threats to the US, and we shouldn't be wasting our time with them. And the only reason Russia is even a *small* threat at all is because of all the Soviet-era nukes it still has. Otherwise it would be just another nothing-country. Russia's GDP is roughly the same size as Spain's, and it's actually less than Italy's GDP. Its economy is less than one-tenth the size of ours. That's pathetic. The only thing they can do is nuke us, but then we would nuke them right back. And Putin doesn't need Trump's cooperation for that - he can commit suicide without any help at all.
The whole thing is a joke because Putin clearly has geopolitical ambitions, but he's living in the past. The USSR is gone. Modern Russia can't even fully control it's own territory, and yet it wants more. I say, let Putin have whatever territory he wants. Wake me when he invades New Jersey.
@Warrenboy75,
LOL, I rest my case. It's nice that someone read my "essay." But yeah, I'm told that Hillary Clinton supported anti-Putin separatist movements during her tenure as Secretary of State. And she was among the loudest voices privately calling for sanctions on Russia and arming Ukraine after she left the State Department. Putin probably always prefers the more dovish American candidate anyway, and this time it was Trump.
Ten facts disproving Trump is soft on Russia ( from [view link])
1.) Deployed U.S. Patriot missiles in Poland to counter Russian nuclear-capable intermediate-range weapons, including aircraft and cruise missiles in a “hot war” aimed at Europe. As Newsweek [1] described it July 6, 2017, “in a move set to counter Russia’s reinforcement on NATO’s borders, Poland and the U.S. have agreed that Warsaw will purchase the American-made Patriot air defense missile.”
2.) Repelled an assault by Russian mercenaries on a U.S. position in Syria, killing between 200-300 of them. NBC News [2] reported March 15 that the mercenaries were “employed by a Russian contracting firm, according to three U.S military officials with direct knowledge of the incident.”
3.) Deployed U.S. military forces to the Baltic states on Russia’s border, seriously compromising Putin’s ability to threaten NATO’s northern flank. The Wall Street Journal [3] on Jan. 30, 2017, called it “the largest such deployment since the Cold War, a step aimed at reassuring America’s European allies that Washington remains committed to their defense.”
4.) Trump is targeting Europe’s dependence on Russia for an estimated one-third of its natural gas supplies, encouraging them to instead buy U.S. energy, thus denying Putin critically needed export revenues. “Trump complained Germany is ‘making Russia richer.’ When the NATO secretary general told Trump trade was a separate matter, Trump fired back. ‘How can you be together when a country is getting its energy from the person you want protection against or from the group that you want protection against,’” PBS reported [4] July 11 from the Brussels European Union meeting.
5.) Trump is pushing NATO member nations to double their defense spending to 4 percent of their Gross Domestic Products. The increase will greatly strengthen the military forces confronting any Russian attack on Western Europe. “President Trump wants to see our allies share more of the burden and at a very minimum meet their already stated obligations,” White House press secretary Sarah Sanders said, according to a July 11 CNN report [5].
6.) Trump is implementing a comprehensive modernization of the U.S. military to deter Russia and China. The president’s 2019 Department of Defense (DOD) budget request for $716 billion seeks to upgrade the U.S. nuclear triad (inter-continental missiles, bombers and submarines), add 26,000 troops, buys 10 new ships and boosts “research on research in cyber, electronic warfare, space, artificial intelligence and hypersonics,” according to a February 12 CNBC report [6].
7.) Sixty Russian diplomats, including 12 involved in spying activities, were kicked out of the U.S. by Trump in response to the chemical poisoning of a former Russian spy living in Britain. The AP reported March 26 that “senior Trump administration officials said all 60 Russians were spies working in the U.S. under diplomatic cover, including a dozen at Russia’s mission to the United Nations. The officials said the administration was taking the action to send a message to Russia’s leaders about the ‘unacceptably high’ number of Russian intelligence operatives in the U.S.”
8.) Trump imposed additional sanctions on Russian companies and oligarchs who are Putin allies in retaliation for his digital assaults on American energy firms. “The Trump administration also recently slapped new sanctions on Russian entities and individuals, including two of its top intelligence services, because of 2016 U.S. election meddling and what senior officials described Friday as an ‘ongoing Russian cyberattack on the American energy sector,'” Roll Call [7] reported March 26.
9.) In a move his predecessor conspicuously refused to make, Trump agreed to provide anti-tank weapons Ukraine has sought for years. Ukraine needs the U.S. Javelin missiles to destroy Russian tanks aiding separatists in the eastern sector of that nation. The Chicago Tribune [8] said March 1 that the “Trump administration told Congress on Thursday that it plans to sell Ukraine 210 anti-tank missiles to help it defend its territory from Russia, in a major escalation of U.S. lethal assistance to Ukraine’s military.”
10.) Trump signed an executive order launching a major upgrading of U.S, cyber defenses of its digital and other critical infrastructures. “The order seeks to improve the often-maligned network security of U.S. government agencies, from which foreign governments and other hackers have pilfered millions of personal records and other forms of sensitive data in recent years,” Reuters [9] reported May 11, 2017.
“The White House said the order also aimed to enhance protection of infrastructure such as the energy grid and financial sector from sophisticated attacks that officials have warned could pose a national security threat or cripple parts of the economy.”
^^^
All of this is indisputably true. But so what? Trump's policies on Russia have been a continuation and escalation of his predecessor's policies. Much like Trump, Obama also disingenuously pretended that Russia wasn't a threat in public (such as in the debate with Romney in 2012) but then he did things behind the scenes to counter Russia.
The real question is why would you even *want* a president to be hard on Russia anyway? I for one am glad that the Cold War is over. Don't we ever get to move on from the Cold War? It's great that we now live in a world where our biggest enemy is a country whose economy is less than one-tenth our size. We won. Game over. Why is this shit still necessary at all? At this point NATO is just global welfare, and it's about time that we end it completely. Western Europe can't possibly protect us, so why should we bother to protect them? Who cares how much Slovenia spends on its defense? - at the end of the day, we're still protecting them! We should leave NATO entirely.
Here's a link that mentions that both Clinton and Sanders both argued that NATO members should be paying more for their defense, while Trump argued that maybe NATO shouldn't exist anymore. So basically he's adopted the other side's position and yet you're acting like it's something new and different. This was supposed to be one of the only good things about Trump (rethinking NATO) and he won't even do it:
[view link]
@flagooner,
You know, I really expect so much more from you. At least txtittyfag is funny. Do you even bother to read anything I write? It's ok, my grandfather used to fall asleep whenever he tried to read and write, too. Hopefully when I'm old like you, I'll still have the faculties and energy to post graffiti on a forum, too.
For someone who doesn't read my posts you spend a lot of time responding to them. And you're right, whenever we talk about politics, everyone here just repeats the same old lines again and again. More proof that no one on the internet will ever convince anyone of anything ever. (Granted, you have convinced me that you're an asshole and a waste of time, but unintentionally I'm sure.)
Also I notice that when I argue with liberals like RandomMember, SJG, and PoolyD I get accused of either shilling for the GOP or defending Trump too much. And when I talk to conservatives I get exactly the opposite reaction. Anyone who doesn't choose a tribe is automatically disliked by both sides.
Let's see, what else... Oh yeah, I remember now: I think your wife is a transvestite prostitute who married you for citizenship. Go ahead, prove I'm wrong.
I read and responded because it was addressed to me specifically. I figured this one was for me too, since it followed my response.
Damn, it took you a while to figure out that I'm an asshole. You really aren't very bright.
As for your comment about my wife, that alone justifies my calling you a ball bag.
@flagooner,
You seem to feel the need to read and respond to my posts even though most of them are directed at mark94, RandomMember, and twentyfive. Say what you want about them, at least they’re coherent and on-topic. Anyway, fuck your mail-order wife. I still say she married you for citizenship. And I sincerely hope your kids contract HIV the next time they blow their father.
@txtittyfag ,
“you sure as hell aint no conservative”
You’re right. I ain’t no conservative. I support balanced budgets, deregulation, low taxes, and the second amendment… but I also support abortion, immigration, free speech, free trade, etc. I’m totally against campaign-finance reform, Net Neutrality, the death penalty, and the UN. And I support your right to get gay-married to flagooner whenever you want. That’s not a conservative. That’s a libertarian. There’s a lot of people crawling around TUSCL who call themselves libertarians, but I’m the real deal. I think we’re about done here, amigo.
Clearly, Comrade Trump is scared that his master, Vladdie P, will get pissed at him. The old Trump didn't mind having people pissed at (or on) him, but the new Trump realizes he can't afford to have these instances videotaped.
Interesting perspective ( from RealClearPolitics)
I forcefully denounce a new birtherism, this time from the left via an entrenched and hysterical fixation on Russia and President Trump. Like the Obama birtherism, there are enough fuzzy facts for totally biased people to convince themselves there is some merit to the fanciful concoction. After all, Trump seems unwilling to vigorously condemn Putin’s misdeeds. Trump also was hesitant to enact harsh sanctions against Russia. Perhaps most importantly, he seemed unduly deferential to Putin in the Helsinki press conference, a criticism I myself levied.
But, the leap from “Trump is too soft on Russia” to “Trump is a compromised Russian agent” is indeed a giant one, and illogical as well. According to the new birthers, the total lack of evidence regarding Trump and his supposed fealty to Russia matters little; instead, only their suspicions and mistrust matter, especially since so many media and political elites still have not recovered from so badly missing the tectonic political shift of the 2016 election. Rather than introspection or discernment regarding their own biases, the chattering class of Acela corridor bigwigs would rather create a myth that the president did not really win, at least not legitimately. The new birthers would rather sell us the lie that the Russians altered the vote to install their man in the Oval Office to do Vladimir’s bidding.
^Populism disguised as conservatism. You ain’t a conservative, your just another phony populist.
All of the intelligence services, who’s job it is to know these things, say the Russians interjected themselves into the 2016 election.
Vladimir Putin said it out loud in Helsinki, that he wanted Trump to win.
There is nothing to debate anymore, I just laid out the facts, not the way I see them, not the way I want them, just the way they are.
I don't think there is any doubt that the Russians made attempts to mess with our election. What is in debate is the impact they had. Also, there is no evidence that Trump's campaign or the Republican party had anything to do with it. I don't know if there was even any knowledge, though Obama's administration was clearly aware but chose not to do anything about it.
Influencing another country's elections is unfathomable. We would never do something like that.
^then send a message to your boo, it wasn’t others it was the Russians, why can’t that seem to penetrate, I haven’t said one word about the results of the co-option of our election, I haven’t said one word about Barack Obama, as far as false equivelencies go we can’t have that debate untill we have a few facts that we agree on. If you were truly a conservative, you’d agree that what the Russians do is nowhere near our moral standards. Only an insecure nativist, xenophobic populist makes these kinds of arguments based on whataboutism.
LOL. I never claimed to be a Conservative, though most of my leanings are consistent with them. I look at both sides of an issue and make my own decision.
I don't claim our behavior is anything like the Russians, but we do tend to stand on a podium of self-righteousness.
Only when used as justification for another's actions.
I agree that Russia's actions should be condemned, we just shouldn't act like we are shockey by it.
^I’m far from shocked I expect those immoral thugs to do shit like that, we win when we show the richness of our systems, as imperfect as they are, not when we stoop to their level. Exposure and daylight makes them run and hide, appeasement only emboldens bullies.
@mark94,
I agree with every word of your RCP article. But now I'm just wondering, how did you feel about *real* birtherism back when Donald Trump was still pushing it a few years ago?
Suddenly, the false Russiagate narrative has reached a new level:
Former Director of National Intelligence (DNI) James Clapper admitted in a CNN interview Saturday that former President Obama instigated the ongoing investigations into Donald Trump and those in his orbit.
Speaking with CNN's Anderson Cooper, Clapper let slip:
If it weren’t for President Obama we might not have done the intelligence community assessment that we did that set up a whole sequence of events which are still unfolding today including Special Counsel Mueller’s investigation. President Obama is responsible for that. It was he who tasked us to do that intelligence community assessment in the first place.
Sorry, I stepped right into your Russiagate propaganda. Yes, obviously Obama tried to investigate the Trump-Russia connection. That's what politicians do. They try to win at any cost, but then if their side loses, they'll cry foul and try to deligitimize the other side's victory. Same thing happened with Bush v. Gore in 2000. And then it happened again when the Birthers claimed that Obama wasn't eligible to be president after 2008. And again when Trump supporters shouted "lock her up" and talked about a "rigged election," under the assumption that Trump would lose to "Crooked Hillary." So isn't this just part of a pattern?
Plus in this case, if laws were actually broken, I suppose Obama had a duty to act. Now having said that, I hope you'll agree with me that these are very stupid laws, and I'm personally glad that the Russians hacked the DNC, etc.
^^^
Do you have a particular problem with what I wrote? Because if you do, then why not just argue against it? I find you as obnoxious as you find me, but I mostly just ignore you. My guess is that you disagree with me but you realize that you lack the intellect and the stamina to have a real argument.
Well if he doesn't want someone criticizing him for having an anchor-baby then I guess he shouldn't have had one. Personally, I'm ok with all the illegals staying - I would only deport flagooner's family :)
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