Incels (Involuntary Celibates)

Sorry to break the news to you but there’s several PLs on here that have never and never will be, married. Think about that for a minute, even SJG has been married.

I have a friend of a friend who could be in that group. He’s a decent looking guy, exercises a lot and is in good shape, but one day he flipped, walked out of his job and now he’s 40. Lives in a relatives house that he “inherited” and doesn’t hold a steady job. He’s one of those tools that complains no girl is ever up to his standards. So instead he plays video games all day and complains about everything under the sun.

I first heard of incels after the recent Toronto attack. It seems to me that legal brothels, like FFK clubs in Germany, would help these men. But most involuntary celibates do not become violent crazies. They just go to strip clubs and watch porn.

Getting SJG on their discussion forum is a brilliant idea. He would set them straight and they would join his organization.

I think that’s a great idea. I’m not sure how to convince SJG to make the jump. I’m sure they would appreciate his insights and his lengthy posts about non relevant issues.

Like Jack, I first heard of the term with the recent Toronto incident where the guy was an Incel and mowed down a bunch of people with a van.

A guy perpetually not having access to a woman/women is not gonna be healthy emotionally/psychologically but unfortunately many guys want a real relationship and SCs and brothels may not hold their interest although I think they would help.

^^^That is probably closer to the truth!

Wtf Can’t get laid? Go to SC - with strippers it’s just a matter of money. Money trumps all lol.

Too many video games will do this to you....including the self induced celibracey and learning to live in mom and dad's basement.

And after typing this I went back and read" plays video games all day and complains about everything under the sun". Shailynn's statement.

I think universally this sums it up.

Tittyfag makes a good observation. It’s not voluntary - but there’s a purpose to why they are celibate.

why is it always the man that deserves the blame? if you marry a women she takes have your shit after divorce. if you have kids she keeps them. They arent inteligent, theyll nag you and spend your money on stupid shit. if you cheat on her or while dating dont pay for dinner youre a cheap fuck. if she cheats on you its your fault and you deserve it. wake up...Dunning–Kruger effect on full force. women arent playing with youre outdated playbook on gender relations.

thanks for the link. I'm sure there are women incel orgs too. Perhaps many more. To each its own. But violence cannot be tolerated.

^^^agree, if you need to make a politcal statement against a rigged system. killing inocent people is never okay.

But violence cannot be tolerated.

Neither can it be ignored. That's why one could do better to allow the enemy a route of escape even if one has a superior force.

Am I the only one that when I see that Toronto creep's last name it makes me think of Mamisan? No offense intended Mamisan, I'm not comparing him to you, I just see a similarity between your names. If he visited you for a yanky wanky maybe those innocent people would still be alive.

ppwh - yep prostitution laws fail us here - when Holland and Germany have shown a better working system.

Since these whackos wrote manifestos linked to incel doctrine - it will stereotype peaceful, law abiding incels (majority I'd think) - as violent. These orgs should make a public statement condemning these acts and distancing from this behavior. And another memo internal to the org with the same message - perhaps harsher - just so nobody gets the idea that violence is the answer. Short of this - even I'd begin to suspect the organizations motives as being harmful to society.

Yes, and I see they mention Elliot Rodger. Saying people are crazy or nuts accomplishes nothing, not unless your objective is more killings.

Rodger probably would have been fine if he were in a more mixed environment. UC, and especially in SoCal, is a haven for the children of the wealthy. Now yes, Rodger is also such. But it is a culturally very narrow environment.

After the Rodger incident I talked with someone who is a student councilor at CSU Fresno. A very different and much more mixed sort of environment. Rodger would have been better with part time work, part time school, able to interact with lots of other people.

His actions seem to have in large measure been to make a statement to his father.

SJG

A stripper friend of mine has a regular OTC customer who was a 40 year old virgin. I've met him a couple of times and he clearly has several psychological "issues". Once she and I started talking about swallowing vs spitting in front of him. He got all flustered, went in the next room and returned reading bible verses to us because we were being "dirty". He has very deep pockets and I think she may have orally popped his cherry recently.

I remember when you mentioned this guy when I first joined. Interesting that he is still seeing her.

I think though the OP is talking about a different sort, someone who is not refusing sex because it is "dirty", but someone who has come to believe that they are being shut out.

I cannot say whether this is real or not, but clearly there are some who believe that it is. But the issue starts to diffuse if you look across a broader segment of society, not just at that very strange environ of a prestigious and full time student dominated university campus.

tuscl.net

SJG

A Brief History of the USA youtube.com

Jimmy Smith, Satin Doll youtube.com

Clark Terry youtube.com

I would caution everyone from taking everything the media tells you at face value. If it bleeds, it leads, and scapegoating an unpopular group of people is easy.

@ backslash & Player11

Most of these incels are not looking for just sex, but also the validation and affection that comes from real relationships. A lot of incels turn to prostitution to lose their virginity, and come away with a fleeting sense of satisfaction.

youtube.com

I lived with an incel roommate for nearly 2 years. The first 6 months I barely ever saw him. If it wasn't for the click of keyboard typing, and the faint sound of Japanese coming from his room I wouldn't even know he existed. Eventually he got more comfortable and opened up to me, and introduced me to a whole new world I wasn't previously aware of on the Internet. Most of his personal interactions were done on anonymous message boards like 4chan, or done on chat rooms over IRC. Anime and video games were the most popular topics. Guy was awkward and shy, and painfully insecure, but totally harmless. When it came to numbers and languages, he was whip smart. He teamed up with a Polish university professor, and an American expatriate in Japan to translate Japanese pornographic video games. Raised nearly $10,000.00 over a course of a year in donations, and ran a site with over a million unique visitors, but then gave it all up because he couldn't handle the online attention.

He had a lot of insecurities about his looks, but he wasn't an ugly man, just an average man with bad grooming. Eventually the anxiety he had with his virginity and perceived lack of looks culminated in him disappearing for a few days. The next time I saw him he looked horrible, and smelt worse because he hadn't taken a shower in a week. Apparently, he had flown over to Amsterdam and gone on a 3-day sex and drug-fueled adventure which ended with him having a threesome with a tranny prostitute and a male stranger who tried to introduce him to cocaine. He then spent the remainder of the week locked up in a hotel room hating himself. A lot of these guys are depressed, repressed, and quite frankly are probably on the Autism spectrum. They are much more likely to hurt themselves before hurting anyone else.

He's actually doing better now. He transferred to college, found a group of real-life friends with shared interests, and he has substituted Japanese anime figurines for girlfriends.

@ Salty.Nutz

"women arent playing with youre outdated playbook on gender relations." That's one of the best ways I've heard this idea expressed. Access to vagina is a commodity, and with the destigmatization of female promiscuity more and more women are happy to use their vagina to get what they want. Strip clubs, escort agencies, and dating websites wouldn't exist without that fact. I don't blame women. Human beings on the whole will do what they can get away with, and take advantage when they can. Previous generations have brick-by-brick broken down all the traditional institutions that gave people a sense or order and meaning. Now our generation is stuck in a weird limbo where we have to navigate through life using outdated maps.

@ rogertex

Asking incels to come out arm-in-arm against the behavior of the Toronto killer, would be like asking a particular race, gender, or age group to make a group statement about the behavior of one of their members. Incels are not organized, nor are they centralized. There are millions of them spread out across the world.

People are quick to blame video games, incels, or guns as the root cause of these mass killings, but the one things all of these mass killers have in common are mental issues combined with social isolation. No law can solve it. The only thing that can solve it are families and friends willing to shoulder the burden of helping people who do a poor job of taking care of themselves, which our modern-day society is ill-equipped to do. People are lonely.

philadelphia.cbslocal.com

A big problem with younger guys who started watching porn at a young age is porno creep. It is a condition where a guy gets so jaded by watching too much porn that normal sexual intercourse or women that don't have the looks of pornstars are of no interest to them.

^ I wonder if the same happens to hard core SCers

^ that the avg civie they can get is not good enough?

@PapiChulo - For me the experience was that porn negatively affected how I saw women but SCs were the opposite. I started typing up something to explain but it got long and I think it would make a good article.

I don't think pornography and SCs affect the way a male views a female the same way

Sounds like a bunch of butthurt turds who are lucky that their hand hasn't turned them down too.

"Sounds like a bunch of butthurt turds who are lucky that their hand hasn't turned them down too."

Brilliant!

Lopaw - sadly that’s a good point.

I think there are several good insights made in this discussion. The prevalence of free porn - can contribute to guys having a standard that is too high. This can lead to men being unable to find partners that live up to the standard they have mentally created. They can then become increasingly frustrated - and they can withdraw from society. The more they withdraw - the more dangerous they can become.

I don't think porn has anything to do with this phenomenon, except maybe to crank up the expectation level. Strip clubs, well that means dealing with real people, so the expectation level stays more grounded. For the most part, in my own experience, the women who work in strip clubs are ordinary people, more approachable and relatable, say than the coeds at Elliot Rodger's college.

Thinking about this, the organization I am working to build will use imagery, but that is just to set the aesthetic. It will always be centered on f2f interactions. And this is the only way anyone ever gets into it.

Not intended to promote fantasies disconnected from life experience. IBANEZ SRAS7 ASHULA - SOUNDTEST youtube.com

youtube.com

youtube.com

youtube.com

SJG - porn plays a significant role in the way many incels view potential partners. When a person withdraws - and then starts to pursue solitary activities solely - the images he views provide him with his window on the world.

If one decides to play video games - and view porn - then his view (of the external world) will conform to the images seen onscreen. Whether the women in porn are surgically altered - slender - toned - then his expectations will be based on those images.

It is a pattern of withdrawal and limited human interaction - that leads certain guys to believe porn girls are the norm. If these guys then go to strip clubs periodically - they will think all women conform to a model of sexual beasts who always say yes.

Off the top of my head I kinda see porn as a symptom of the problem vs the cause of the problem.

I think these guys may be socially-awkward and not-good at interpersonal-relationships and I think this may be the root-cause that may or may not lead them to porn but does affect their ability to have relationships.

I imagine there are some dudes for whom porn may be the main-problem when it comes to relationships w/ women - but most of the guys I've seen that have problems w/ women/relationships seem to have issues w/ any kinda relationship and it's often due to their emotional/psychological makeup.

Incel Video, about visiting Elko NV brothel at 3 min. youtube.com

Cashman, I don't agree with you. What is true is that our culture continues to become more sexualized, and so people believe that everyone is having sex. In some cases this is true, in other cases it is not. Porn, it raises the bar. Most American women are accustomed to BJing now, mostly because in 1972 thy watched Deep Throat, Mostly Beethoven, and Behind the Green Door. That made the huge cultural change.

Some people are socially marginalized. But porn and video games, those are part of our culture just like everything else. These persons being called Incels, or I guess calling themselves Incels, eventually they will find their own place and ways to engage more. Universities can be very conformist places.

What experiences they obtain will shape their views.

Most people have insecurities about their looks and about other aspects of themselves, and most are looking for affirmation in intimate relationships.

SJG

I've always said that P4P and Strip Clubs and AMPs are not really a solution to anything. They do communicate an aesthetic of openness, how far they can go so easily with strangers. But you want to take that learning and then manifest it in your ordinary life.

People who want personal relationships with sex workers are extremists.

SJG

This guy in the video, I don't see anything wrong with what he was doing in Elko, or with him.

SJG

speaking for myself... as an old fart i can’t find any interest and attraction with women in my socially approved age range. probably only 1% is attractive and the vast majority of those are way above my economic and social class. maybe this is a problem with some of the incels too. (hence my need of other venues of attractive ladies.)

If Incel's is a self applied label, okay, as there is promise in it. The guy in the above video is just telling it as he sees it. Not anyone else's place to say that he is right or wrong.

But I also say that there are social forces, things like socio economic status which some into play.

Like for example, though the family of Elliot Rodger was rich, likely even more so than most of the others at his college, the cultural narrowness of it all left him marginalized. He never got to see that it is all very contrived and conformist. Though he was just as rich, he was still not like the norm.

And in such schools the Sorority Girls do go out of their way to stand out, mainly through clothes and air head ways of talking to communicate that they are free of all social responsibilities. So people do see them as symbolic.

This was at UC. At CSU and Community Colleges this is far less so, and at private arts schools even less so. But Rodger never got to see that there really was nothing wrong with him. He went off the deep end before he got that chance.

Really good book: amazon.com

She is more talking about high schools, but when a college has people all the same age, it is going to be similar.

Such shootings happen in White Suburbia, like Columbine CO, because they are conformist mono-cultures. And this happens even though such places have a lower crime rate and lower rate of guns in school.

In mixed socioeconomic and mixed race schools, with a higher crime rate, higher guns in school rate, there are still social niches where kids which don't fit the conformist norm can find a place. They are more open culturally.

And justme, there are situations which bring older men into contact with young women, so that they are able to relate to them. Age can be a huge plus, because of the life experience. But one has to find a venue, being retired does not have to mean retired.

SJG

This is just more of the standard bullshit: philadelphia.cbslocal.com

People sometimes feel depressed, and for good reason. If their social and civil standing are being threatened, then it is an evolutionarily developed response to feel anxiety and depression.

About the worst thing one could do is disclose anything to the mental health community because they will try to make you feel that this so called depression is being caused by yourself, rather than by real situations which you are perceiving.

Looking now for the first time at this Toronto incident. news.vice.com

If someone is feeling marginalized and depressed then they likely will be susceptible to the right wing hate speech which underlies the MGTOW, Men's Rights, PUA, and PUA-HATE movements. The results are as you would expect.

SJG

@ EchoPapa - thanks for the insight.

PaulDrake wrote, "All he need to do is explain it to the incels that all it takes is some DFK for anyone to get laid with a super hot stripper!"

Well generally if you can get a girl DFKing, you've then got at least a tentative GF. So if these guys did this, they would not remain celibate, at least not voluntarily so, for too much longer.

OP's article vox.com

“Incel Rebellion”

"Some self-identified incels, as they call themselves, have developed an elaborate sociopolitical explanation for their sexual failures, one that centers on the idea that women are shallow, vicious, and only attracted to hyper-muscular men. They see this as a profound injustice against men like them, who suffer an inherent genetic disadvantage through no fault of their own. A small radical fringe believes that violence, especially against women, is an appropriate response — that an “Incel Rebellion” or “Beta [Male] Uprising” will eventually overturn the sexual status quo."

"incel.me forum"

wehuntedthemammoth.com

en.oxforddictionaries.com

here: incels.me

I'm maybe just starting to understand this a little bit. And yes, it is like Elliot Rodger. He was part of something called PUA-HATE, and I did not know what that was about. As an English major, Rodger would have been above average as a PUA.

And I remember after the indigent, in one interview a sorority girl from another college said that Rodger was, "A reasonably good looking guy."

We have three types of publicly funded colleges:

1. Community Colleges
2. CSU's
3. UC's

But as you go down this list, the average age actually gets younger and younger. So where Rodger went to school, there was a fierce social hierarchy, with sorority girls and their ways of presenting themselves being at the top.

So anywhere else, Rodger would have likely gone over well with girls. Outside of college, all you need to have is a job, and young women are always getting in your face. But a school like the one he went to is different. I don't think he really understood this either.

So they hate PUA's because they see their doctrines as bogus.

I do not go along with their politics and anti-feminism, and all the T-level and Alpha Male stuff. But as far as how to approach girls and to get laid instead of getting a phone number, what they say is obvious.

I remember being college age and feeling that learning how to pick up girls did make me a kind of outsider. But I also know now that the world used to be more conservative. Various types of social groupings would function for matchmaking. Here we have lots of immigrants from the third world, the women are always doing matchmaking.

So, things used to be much more set by normative social institutions.

But the world is different now, and many do not like such institutions, and women seem to go for outsiders. So, you need to pick up on them. If you meet one, some place where you will not automatically be placed in contact with her again, you either act, or you miss the opportunity.

Rodger would have been able to do this, though his college would not have been that favorable of an environment.

So I don't see feminism as in any way part of the problem. Feminism has freed women from the fixed categories. So when you find a fast moving young woman, thank feminism.

I don't think porn or video games are causing any problem.

As far as these incels believing that the world is unfair, in many ways it is unfair.

But I also think that these guys are badly misinformed about some basic things, and that this is coming from the political right.

The real enemy should be the guys who look down upon them and call them losers.

Sex before marriage, especially for women, did not used to be the norm, and in some quarters it is still not accepted.

Also, some guys just want to go slower, not really interested in pushing girls to the bedroom so fast.

SJG

This is interesting: en.wikipedia.org

3 spree shooters, so far.

I do not at all go along with any Male Supremacy movement.

Picking up girls is fine. But not their underlying agenda.

Still don't feel that I understand these guys.

SJG

Curious incels.me

I do go along with the idea that women are not open or honest, they express their preferences and make things go their way by indirect means, and you really cannot argue with them and have no appeal.

But overall, their power has its limits.

SJG

Maybe women are less interested in marriage, but now more interested in fast sex.

SJG

that's fine.

@SJG - Come on buddy! We need you to start posting on their forum! What are you doing wasting your amazing talent on tuscl! Be a hero, this is your calling!

PaulDrake, what is it going to take to seal you asshole up so you are not shitting on this forum? mscdirect.com

Replying to everyone else and this thread, and justme62, less interested in marriage is fine. I think it is great. But that does not mean that these young women are going to come out and say that openly.

They talk about this in Japan, young women who are refusing to marry and are continuing to live with their parents. They don't say they are not going to marry, they just say that this guy is not good enough and that guy is not good enough.

Perhaps this is what the incel guys are encountering?

But also, young women who don't want to marry, they are going to go for ornamental men, posturers,

CONTINUED

posturers, team sports athletes, frat boys. I think this is what Elliot Rodger was saying.

Now I don't go along with the PUA's and their "Alpha Male" and "T-Level" stuff. And there are different groups of young women.

My ex-wife, she swore by marriage, but it was for its external approval factors. In the actual relationship she made it impossible.

So maybe the incels are finding a more extreme version, and so they blame feminism.

But they don't understand that it is feminism which has given women permission to fuck before marriage.

SJG

About the only thing worse than being an incel is being married to a woman who only wants the externals of the marriage, and who really does not want to make it work.

I told someone once that they thing you must never do is give a woman what she says she wants.

SJG

The Japanese are not breeding and having kids. I watched a documentary about it. They call the dudes that don't fuck herbavores or something. The documentary showed some young men trying to hook up with women close to their age. The women were mature, worldly and sexy. In contrast, the Japanese young men came off as nervous, immature and inexperienced. These dudes had no chance. They just play video games and never really grow up. It is huge problem over there.

Like him or hate him, one thing I thought was interesting from Jordan Peterson was the idea that modern women have pressure to get their lives sorted out fast. They have pressure to get their family and careers on track before 30 where a lot of modern guys are happy to live at home and play video games until 40.

SJG - Doesn't seem like the community has a problem with me? But if they did I would definitely quit the forum. I am NOT the kind of person that would stick around to be continually shit on by a community of people.

This comment is unrelated to the discussion.

When I see this topic - I keep thinking its Involuntary Celebrities. I’m sure there are many folks who fit that topic - due to social media postings that have gone viral.

Ok. Now back to kicking SJG in the nuts...

Natural Selection in action. ;)

Incel = euphemism for a guy that can't get laid because he's got no game.

LMAO everything else is just a lame excuse.

PaulDrake, you sound like you are suicidal, seeking your own death.

Yes, in Japan, lots of men and women are declining to conform with previously accepted gender norms. I see this as a big positive.

But remember that the US Incels really believe that their status is involuntary. To try and understand this I did read some of their forum, as I had read about Elliot Rodger earlier.

I do not go along with their anti-feminist interpretations. Some of them, like Rodger, are functioning in very narrow social realms. For him it was the University of California, with a fierce social hierarchy. I believe that he needed to be in a more open environment. Right after his shooting spree I talked about this with someone who was a councilor of students at CSU Fresno. The CSU's are more open environments. Small urban arts colleges are even better.

I feel that standard colleges are often very negative places.

With the video of the man who went to a legal NV brothel to lose his virginity, and with the broader incel movement, I think that there is some truth that young women today are less interested in marriage. They do not come out and say this openly, but they are less willing to make the compromises which women have historically had to make for marriage to work.

But as such, they are more interested in fast sex, and I think they will be inclined to go after ornamental males, guys into posturing, guys who have become more like women.

So the Incel movement, like MGTOW, PUA, PUA-HATE, and Men's Rights, is a reactionary movement, preying on people's discontents and alienation.

Overall, that feminism has resulted in women less marriage fixated, and more into fast sex, should be celebrated.

My ex-wife was not that marriage fixated, but she was also far less willing to actually make the marriage work. But she was not that sexualized, and this is why she was always sexually faithful.

SJG

^ LOL your wife just didn't want to have sex with you because of you.

Everything else you said is just a lame excuse.

Interesting how SJG threatens PaulDrake for his humor. It’s a defensive mechanism - to make SJG feel manly.

^ It's just pent up and exacerbated sexual frustration. From the #1 all time incel himself!

PaulDrake is a shit disturber. He goes on and on on this forum in ways which no one would allow f2f. As such he is just a troll, only here to say the sorts of things no one would allow f2f.

SJG

PaulDrake is one of the nicest TUSCL members that I have ever met.

Here, the first critical discussion I have found of this Right Wing Anti-Feminist "Manosphere / MGTOW / PUA / PUA-HATE / INCEL" movement which I am strongly opposed to and strongly disagree with.

Incel en.wikipedia.org

David Futrelle en.wikipedia.org

We Hunted the Mammoth tracks and mocks the white male rage underlying the rise of Trump and Trumpism. This blog is NOT a safe space; given the subject matter -- misogyny and hate -- there's really no way it could be.

wehuntedthemammoth.com

something against David Futrelle avoiceformen.com

about MGTOW and MRA wehuntedthemammoth.com

Specifically, this blog focuses on what I call the “New Misogyny,” an angry antifeminist backlash that has emerged like a boil on the ass of the internet over the last decade or so. These aren’t your traditional misogynists – the social conservatives and religious fundamentalists who make up much of the far right.

These are guys, mostly, who range in age from their teens to their fifties, who have embraced misogyny as an ideology, as a sort of symbolic solution to the frustrations in their lives – whether financial, social, or sexual.

wehuntedthemammoth.com

Yes, this David Futrelle is expressing my own sentiments, and doing a good job of it.

NYTIMES article about Futrelle

nytimes.com

SJG

Ginger Baker's Air Force (Jazz and Rock, 1970) Full Show youtube.com

WARNING - The following accounts are considered to be forum trolls and may not be trustworthy:

san_jose_guy - commonly referred to as SJG this forum member is usually mocked or ignored, his comments should NOT be taken in any way as legitimate

Incels are always gonna be around. The internet is like their territory. I don't think any amount of SCing could cure an incel. They're full of misogyny and bad feelings

Well it is the misogyny, and the anti-feminism, which tells me that it is wrong.

And of course the involuntary part of it is entirely their own interpretation.

But nevertheless, since the Elliot Rodger incident in 2014, when I first jointed this forum, I have been trying to understand it. And then though I do not agree with his interpretations or actions, I still can identify with his feelings.

Some of it is just how college is, a conformist idiotic hierarchical culture, an extension of adolescence.

And feminism is what lets women do what they want, instead of just trying to get married. It is a big positive, not a negative.

Rodger made things much worse for himself in all the stuff he did. But, I do empathize with the pain and frustration he was feeling.

Thanks there Vantablack,

SJG

When I was the age Rodger was when he went on his spree, I would have rejected strip clubs or anything which seemed to involve money. I would have said that others are getting laid, so one should not have to shell out money.

It was after I was out of college, and then had some money, that I started going to local strip clubs and engaging with the women, and seeing how different they were from the college girls, and then also going to AMPs are partaking fully.

So I don't think Rodger, mental state he was in, would have accepted strip clubs.

SJG

WARNING - The following accounts are considered to be forum trolls and may not be trustworthy:

san_jose_guy - commonly referred to as SJG this forum member is usually mocked or ignored, his comments should NOT be taken in any way as legitimate

Vantablack - possible troll account

This topic is SJG catnip.

I'm not sure if this is super relevant or not, but a few weeks ago I was surfing on the Deep Web looking for sites to visit. I accidentally stumbled upon the Dark Web when I Came Upon a site that was called "The Man Cave". It was a message board, much like this one, of whiny, crybaby Incels. The creepy part was they were describing exactly what they wanted to do to women and in detail. Some of the posts contained photos of women from their social media accounts or photos that were taken in public. Some of the guys explained what they had done to women in the past, and some also used photos to back up their stories. Needless to say, I was only on the site for a few minutes to gather a general idea of what I had stumbled upon and then I left and quickly changed my IP (TOR let's you do that). For the sex workers who do handle Incels, on behalf of all women, thanks for taking one for the team. O_O

The Dark Web is mostly a rat's nest. I'm not even remotely surprised by this.

Brilliant points Vantablack and Waffle.

It seems to me that Incels must not actually want sex. Any guy can get sex if they either "lower their standards" by not imagining that they only women worth bedding look like Jennifer Lawrence or just bit the bullet and pay for it.

Of course, what they don't realize is that without makeup and/or photoshop Jennifer Lawrence doesn't look like Jennifer Lawrence. Well, maybe Jennifer Lawrence is the exception. She's beautiful. I've even advocated putting a photo of her butthole on the $20 and I stand by that position! ;)

But the bigger point is that Incels think beautiful women owe them free sex on the Incel's terms without realizing that nobody gives it up 100% on their parner's terms.

For the person who has accepted this Incel interpretation, I don't think the issue is one of lowering their standards. For someone like Elliot Rodger, it would have have to come out of the UC student body. The fact that some girl who works at fast food wants to go out with him would be irrelevant to him.

And does he even talk once about asking girls out? Does he say what happened? Seems like no.

No, what he does talk about are these social situations where he feels that he is being unfairly ostracized, and then of the things he does, often clearly criminal acts, which make it worse.

Now having said that, these SoCal UC's are very conformist and culturally narrow. In part it is about money. But Rodger's father is richer than most of them. Really it is just about social conformity, and that Rodger is not.

That he is not getting laid is true, but that is the only part of the Incel argument which is true. The idea that he is entitled, or that he is being persecuted by young women is completely untrue. That would be giving the young women credit for more individual agency than they really deserve. It was just a function of the narrow social environment he was in, and then also of the kinds of places he went to high school, and just stuff about how our society is put together.

If Rodger were attending a CSU Campus, say like San Jose State, that is totally different. It is in the center of the downtown of a huge majority non-white city. Most of the students are employed part time. The region is surrounded by homeless people and also some street hookers.

Things are just different about going there.

As it was at UC, Rodger had stopped attending classes, he may not really have been enrolled any more.

As some have pointed out, his father should have made the 100 mile drive and found out what was up, and all the more so when Rodger got injured in this incident with the fraternity boys.

At some kind of a smaller school, humanities school, arts school, he might have done just fine.

Rodger goes on and on about the sorority girls. I have heard that kind of talk myself. It is that way because these girls make themselves into a symbol, really I think it comes down to the conspicuously expensive clothes. But it sounds like Rodger, like most who make that kind of talk, did not actually have much contact with them. Rather, he like others was just seeing them as a symbol.

Well at some smaller arts school they would not have fraternities or sororities.

Either that or just some place else. His father should have sent him to Europe. At little bit of life experience would have made a huge difference.

We have here a makeshift collective of film makers. Maybe that is the direction Rodger would have gone, similar to his father. If he could have at least a part time fledgling career, and part time school, and have lived in an urban area, instead of in a little college town, that would have made a huge difference.

I noticed in some wikipedia pages yesterday that Rodger had said that he also wanted to kill his birth mother, step mother, and some half sibling. But he said that he did not have the courage to kill his father.

No, this Mansophere / Man Cave / Men's Rights Movement is just more nonsense from the Right, every bit as absurd as Libertarianism. Rodger was just vulnerable to believing it. And that likely did move him from just depression and suicidal thougts, to homicide.

But what would have made the difference would just have been for him to have been somewhere else. He really had no reason for being at UC, he just got dumped there. And the target for his written and video messages seemed to mostly have been his father.

Rodger would have made a good play actor.

I'll be getting this new 2018 publication, it has a 16 page chapter about Elliot Rodger, written by someone experienced with things like Columbine.

amazon.com

SJG

Baker Gurvitz Army youtube.com

WARNING - The following accounts are considered to be forum trolls and may not be trustworthy:

san_jose_guy - commonly referred to as SJG this forum member is usually mocked or ignored, his comments should NOT be taken in any way as legitimate

PhayBoy99 - definite troll account

@PhatBoy99 an incel just doesn't have any game with women. Simple as that. And san_jose_creep is a perfect example of one.

WARNING - The following accounts are considered to be forum trolls and may not be trustworthy:

PhatBoy99 - definite troll account

Very well put!

SJG

^^^^ What PhatBoy is saying is very well put.

SJG

WARNING - The following accounts are considered to be forum trolls and may not be trustworthy:

san_jose_guy - commonly referred to as SJG this forum member is usually mocked or ignored, his comments should NOT be taken in any way as legitimate

Phatboy99 - definite troll account

@PhatBoy99 having a low self-esteem and being bitter and misogynistic are all facets of not having a good game with women. Fix any one if those issues around women and your "game" will improve. So yes it is that simple.

And LMAO the only thing san_jose_creep brings to the table is how NOT to be with women.

^^^ Good point.

And also, doesn't moving to P4P, and especially at a young age, somehow mean giving up on the regular social scene?

What Elliot Rodger experienced at UC was tough. If he was in the work place, it would have been totally different. Girls coming at him from every direction.

SJG

WARNING - The following accounts are considered to be forum trolls and may not be trustworthy:

san_jose_guy - commonly referred to as SJG this forum member is usually mocked or ignored, his comments should NOT be taken in any way as legitimate

Phatboy99 - definite troll account

So you don't feel that you are missing anything or making any wrong choices.

I do not think that Elliot Rodger would have gone along with that kind of logic. What he wanted had to come from the normative peer group, and without him having to try very hard to get it.

SJG

Really Good: Mystic Siva - Under the Influence 1969-1970 (FULL ALBUM) [Progressive Rock/ Psychedelic Rock] youtube.com

WARNING - The following accounts are considered to be forum trolls and may not be trustworthy:

san_jose_guy - commonly referred to as SJG this forum member is usually mocked or ignored, his comments should NOT be taken in any way as legitimate

Phatboy99 - definite troll account

I guess it just depends on how you look at it. When younger I would not have gone for P4P, I wanted a GF, as that was held up as the ultimate.

And then also I didn't have any money.

SJG

GFE makes it all real!

How about this, just a food for thought idea.

Say hypothetically you could transition to having a part time job, not just any job, but a first step career building job.

That could well cause girls outside the college to be climbing on you. And also, it just might cause college girls to do the same.

Just an idea to think about.

When it happened once that I had to walk across the Stanford Campus, and I was wearing a suit, I was really surprised to find their women students coming on to me.

You can see that this range of subject matter I find interesting.

SJG

I believe that if Elliot Rodger was able to transition to also having a part time first step career building job, money totally unnecessary, that that could have completely changed his life.

Thought such would have been easier at Community College or CSU, than at UC.

SJG

WARNING - The following accounts are considered to be forum trolls and may not be trustworthy:

san_jose_guy - commonly referred to as SJG this forum member is usually mocked or ignored, his comments should NOT be taken in any way as legitimate

Phatboy99 - definite troll account

I seem to have lost my game. I haven't had any unknown girls come up to me and ask to have sex in several months. I've been super busy though. Might not be giving off the same vibe.

@DC9428,

Thank you for sharing such info. As far as wearing a suit, I was not really suggesting that. As I see it, it is pandering to the worst inclinations in women. I only mentioned it because of that unexpected reception that I got at Stanford. It does work. But I was not really suggesting it.

The reason I mentioned it in conjunction with talk about the outside job, was simply to point out that women respond completely differently to you when they see you as 'employed' as opposed to as a college student.

One who has some history of employment, no matter how they are dressed, will come across differently. Best is not just some way of selling your time to get money. That is never a good deal. Rather, consider a first step in career building. It could be employment, or it could be working for clients. It would mean that you are involved then in the politics of it. And this changes a guy. For one thing, you come to know that you can earn money and support yourself. You also learn, both good and bad, from all the broaded range of people you encounter.

That, more than literally wearing a suit, should change the ways in which women respond to you, in my experience. It would be first out in and around the work environment.

@orionsmith talked about women wanting to have sex with him. I don't know about them saying that exactly. But man, out in the work environment, and especially if you are nicely dressed and have a nice car, and especially in the work environment itself, where your employment is thus verified, women come on to you. What they really seem to want is for you to ask them out on a car keys and wallet date.

I suppose some might be able to get them into a standard hook up mode, like leave for sex, but usually it will be related to either your or her work place, so that is not that likely.

But they are really hurting for car keys and wallet dates. If you ask one of them out on such, be prepared as it will probably last until morning, and you won't have gotten much sleep.

Notice now that I am not saying that any of this is right, fair, or just. I don't think women should be judging men as they do. They themselves really have no such knowledge or experience upon which to base such judgements. But it is as it is. And you can hear this everywhere, even on this forum.

Now about the college, there are many books about this, and I have read some. Generally in college people have gone to the 'hook up' script, which is pretty much instant sex, like having met at a party, alcohol often involved, and then no relationship afterwards.

I guess this is what Elliot Rodger was looking for, but it was not happening.

The 'dating script', which I call 'car keys and wallet dating', according to some authors, developed during the 1930's, at some midwestern colleges, and associated wtih the fraternities and sororities. It was most definitely elitist. And usually these were FS dates. And that dating script was what superseded the victorian parlor courtships.

It is in decades after WWII that at colleges that the hook up script come to supersed the dating script.

Consider, the dating script screens guys, he must be available, usually housed and employed, have a running car, have some cash, etc.

But in a college the people are basically pre-screened, so car keys and wallet dating is not necessary. The hook up script is thus faster.

But then after people leave college and go into the work place, they usually do become more conservative and go more for the car keys and wallet dating script.

I don't expect you to answer this if you don't want to. So if you don't mind my asking?

1. Do you go to parties and try to meet girls? What happens?
2. Do you try and invite girls to go on car keys and wallet dates? What happens?

You talked about dropping out of college and starting your career. Sounded like this dropping out would be necessary. Many feel that college and a career are incompatible.

College has many costs, monetary, years of one's life, and also having to spend those years in what can be a negative place, a negative status, not really being considered an adult.

And I know that this is completely unfair. I am no saying that any of this is fair. And then graduate school only extends and compounds the problem.

Elliot Rodger was at UC, where outside employment is uncommon. And people are always accusing the schools of trying to cram as much as possible into each term, and many programs are impacted so that there are lots of students who have been forced out. The schools hurt many people.

CSU is also competitive, but many students do have outside employment, and this is kind of assumed. Same for Community Colleges.

And then there are all sorts of private schools, some with a special focus, but they usually are expensive.

I wish you the very best. As you feel that you can, please do keep us posted.

FWIW, in the organization I am building all of these problems will have been solved at root. Our stripper grade dolled up hotties will jump you and get your load, any time you just walk into the temple. They will be completely bonobo about it. Then if you want, you can TLN with them and then have lots of talking time in between rounds. And of course they love nothing better than to have their sleep disturbed, and to do morning romps. No car keys, wallets, or suits, ever needed for anything.

Education will be life long, some core seminars, then the rest being supervised independent studies. And this will always be well integrated with appropriate work experience in industries we either own outright or have a great deal of influence over. Then you can continue in our industries, in outside industries, or if you want we will make you into an entrepreneur who has 100% ownership of their ventures.

It continues to impress me just how high the real costs of college are, and the reasons are not necessarily what people would expect.

@PhatBoy99,

Your contributions on these threads are most appreciated. This particular one was started in talking about this Incel phenomenon. And as I know, the first public exposure of this was with Elliot Rodger in 2014, the guy who was shooting people right next to UC Santa Barbara.

He was not able to get laid and he came to blame the women.

From your perspective, what might Elliot Rodger have done which would have changed his situation?

Although this thread was first started by someone trying to troll me. I feel that it has since developed into an extremely good thread.

I will have this book in hand soon, with its 16 page analysis of the Elliot Rodger matter.

Wiley Handbook on Violence in Education: Forms, Factors, and Preventions (2018)

SJG

Ben Franklin (Documentary) youtube.com

BAKER GURVITZ ARMY - Live 1975 youtube.com

san_jose_creep posted -> "I don't think women should be judging men as they do. They themselves really have no such knowledge or experience upon which to base such judgements. But it is as it is."

^ there is irony in this post because earlier san_jose_creep posted ->

"But man, out in the work environment, and especially if you are nicely dressed and have a nice car, and especially in the work environment itself, where your employment is thus verified, women come on to you. What they really seem to want is for you to ask them out on a car keys and wallet date."

^ the irony is that with this post, san_jose_creep is judging women with no knowledge or basis!

LMAO

@PhatBoy99 wrote,

"Blaming women or their surroundings for not being able to have sex is the worst thing a man can do. "

I agree with you that it does not work to blame the young women. I say that that is actually crediting them with more individual agency than they really deserve. But of the environment and the situation, I see that as a different story. But bottom line, he just needed to be elsewhere, or at least to sometimes be rooted in other environments. Travel, work experience, summer programs, anything.

"The first obvious thing is a man has to work on himself. Work on your body to build your confidence. Have different experiences that make you interesting and have shit to talk about. Maybe dress better or in a style thats original and suits you. "

Well, Elliot was certainly rich and had it all so to speak, but he had also had a hard life, one filled with bullying. Certainly that does not negate what you are saying, but there were unresolved issues for him. He did dislike his step-mother, and it seemed to me like with all of his videos and writings, they were mostly being directed at his father. So that was where his head was at.

Of the negative experiences with young women, I don't know that he actually had that many such, other than ones which he decided to escalate, instead of just allowing them to wash off.

I mean, doesn't seem that he was really trying to relate to them, he just expected that things would happen, and they didn't.

And yes, his racism, classism, and sexism were just things he learned in this MRA movement, just stupid hate speech, don't know how much he even believed any of it.

Of the commentators since, some have faulted this MRA / Incel movement, which I agree is completely wrong.

Others talk about mental illness, which means nothing, just a cop out.

Others have faulted his parents for not being more involved, and when it was clear that there were problems. Elliot disliked his step mother. Both she and the father seem to have had a hard time being involved with him. There seem to have been tensions going way back.

Really no one though has been saying that these college environments, where these shootings just like the high school shootings are occurring, do have some problems with them.

My view from right away, which I communicated to the Fresno State councilor I met, was just that things would have been totally different if Elliot were in a different environment.

The high school shootings occur in white suburban / exurban mono-culture schools which have a low crime rate and few guns in the school and few kids with criminal records.

The urban racially and economically more diverse schools which do have a higher crime rate, more guns in school, more kids with criminal records, do not have these shootings.

And so the argument is that such schools have enough social niches that everyone can find a suitable place.

If Elliot Rodger was at an urban CSU like San Jose, San Francisco, or maybe Los Angeles, or some of the others, then things would have worked out. This is my view.

But I have never read of anyone else advancing this kind of a view.

Thanks, SJG

The Jeff Healey Band - While My Guitar Gently Weeps (live) youtube.com

@PhatBoy99,

The kinds of school shootings being talked about here are like Columbine, or like school after school after school. They are not revenge or gang dominance, they have no motive. It's the high school version of Elliot Rodger. These seem to be only White suburban exurban mono-culture shootings.

amazon.com

@DC9428,

Your high school sounds great! I have never even heard of anything like that before.

Hard to believe that if high school was that good for you, then that college would be a disappointment.

Sounds like at parties these college girls are great, super aggressive. Leading with DFKing!

In my experience if you fuck her that can usually flow into MSOG TLN.

But so after that, they don't want relationships.

So what that sounds like to me is:

amazon.com

So the super ambitious career and degree oriented girls, they do not want relationships. Relationships take time and energy. Hook ups don't. And they don't want to get entangled or married.

What they want is to get their diploma and their fast lane career in hand. And then, they will expect that the guy will have the same.

And so what the above authors note, something which did not come easy for them, is that this new delayed marriage hook up culture requires access to contraception and abortion, and for much of the lower income more religious population, it is not that way.

You wrote, "Here people act like wanting to see a girl more than once a week is akin to a marriage proposal."

This fits with the above book, the girls do not want relationships.

I think I was experiencing this in college, I just did not understand what was going on at that time.

The first time I got an outside non-school GF, someone who had already graduated, for her once a week was totally inadequate. She expected far more regular visits, and fuckings, and TLN's.

She was explaining while we were at a movie how once a week was not enough, and ignoring the movie, "I want you to take me home and fuck me."

I was not accustomed to this, and especially the underlying clingyness, and also the unrestrained horneyness, so easily aroused to heavy breathing.

It was totally the opposite of the college girls.

So here it turned out to be me who did not want a relationship. I did not want to be off campus very much, I was totally focused on school work. I poured massive amounts of time, wanting to learn as much as I possibly could. There is no other way to do that either, but working with the books and the paper, and the HP calculator.

So I had to let this off campus girl go.

I believe that you are experiencing something like this, girls who don't want relationships, not enough time for a part time job. You are seeing how demanding standard colleges are for everyone. It really runs people through a ringer.

FWIW, my organization will be nothing like that.

To Be Continued

SJG

Chronic State youtube.com

@DC, the reason one night stands are associated with highly sexualized people is that they are having multiple partners. But the idea is that it is the men who are making it that way, and also a few off the hook women. But so it sounds like, all the girls at your college are "off-the-hook"

But then after these girls are gone.

I'm not going to tell you what to do, but if you get an outside girl friend, it will not be like that. And all the more so if you are at least somehow employed.

Well yes, you've got one night girls. Most guys would love that, or at least they would say they would, as they practice bull shit posturing bravado.

Well, so there are towny civies, and there is P4P, whatever you want.

As far as asking girls out on a date, f2f is far better, far more effective. She will answer.

Telephone is okay, as you still have each other's voices.

But text and email, no way! At least get her on the phone, and f2f is far better.

But sounds like these ambitious college girls do not want that.

GOOD LUCK AND I HOPE ALL GOES WELL AND YOU GET WHAT YOU WANT!

SJG

Chronic State youtube.com

@PhatBoy99 wrote,

"I would also argue that minorities don't have the same gun culture as white Americans. There's not as much access to guns, especially quality guns. The mindset around guns is different."

As can be seen even on this forum, a lot of White Americans are really gun nuts. They see guns as the solution to problems, even when that makes zero sense.

About Coping Skills and Elliot Rodger, I think he was just mad, thinking the world was unfair.

In a way he was right, but he just needed to be elsewhere.

Work places chill people out, because most of the people they deal with are just ordinary people. Even if just for a summer, it would make a big difference.

About high school girls wanting BF's, and if it is the same for college girls, I think you are talking about girls not of elite social privilege.

That difference is covered in the book I have suggested. But these elite ambitious college girls, they want none of that until their diploma and career are in hand.

When I was in high school, the girls from well-off families wanted very controlled, regulated, good boy BF's, but that only. And though the girls would talk about wanting to be married, it was BS. They only wanted college. Taken me a long time to understand this.

The less well-off girls, totally different.

So truth:

Well off girl rejected me so hard, extreme prejudice. Treated me like a piece of dirt.

Not well off girls, throwing themselves at me, but I was not ready for that and could not accept that.

And it is not that I was poor, its just that I did not fit the mold of the well-off. Same for Elliot Rodger.

SJG

Right here:

Katherine S. Newman, on campus safety, 2008 youtube.com

Why 20-Somethings are Moving Back Home youtube.com

Katherine Newman - America's "missing class" presentation youtube.com

Elliot Rodger The Virgin Killer 2014 Isla Vista killings Documentary youtube.com

The Secret Life Of Elliot Rodger 2020 FULL Interview youtube.com

Channel 4 Elliot Rodger The Virgin Killer Full Documentary youtube.com

SJG

DC9428,

I find your observations to be most cogent.

The one night stand guy is seen as highly sexual, against a back drop of people who are married and have very little sex.

That a one night stand, or one time in a strip club, is good, versus waking up in the morning with the girl, is what TUSCLers typically would say, but they have not really looked at the situation. They have not looked at the circumstances which are pressing their choices.

So what I hear you as saying is that a part time job is not really college compatible.

The college girls do not want relationships or car key wallet dating. It all takes time, time they don't have.

What I will say about town girls is that they will be clingy and they will deliver good. But they tend to be short focused. They want jobs, not careers, and they don't understand careers. They see a career as just a "Good Job".

And so really learning much in school, like say as an example becoming a Math Professor, is really swimming against the currents. I does mean an kind of voluntary celibacy, often.

So really it all depends upon you and what you want, where your vision lies for yourself.

Do you agree with me then that colleges can be bad places, like learning to live in a war zone?

High stress. Struggling with assignments and to be ready for exams. That kind of learning is never the best kind. Need more self direction.

Competitive schools, schools focused on certification, rather than education, not good.

And then some people really need to be elsewhere, otherwise it is a kind of self enforced celibacy.

@PhatBoy99,

College has some very high costs, and most of them are not monetary at all, they are social. It really takes over your life, and keeps you in what is usually a negative situation.

The organization I am building is completely different from this.

SJG

I am building an organization which will be nationwide, plus northern Mexico, and maybe more.

Men pay dues, most of the time women pay nothing. Dues pay for our temples and a van fleet, mostly to shuttle the women around. It also pays my salary of $1 per year.

Everyone will have financial, housing, and health care security, plus a life long continuing education.

Everyone will be doing challenging and appropriate types of work, always learning more.

And then there is 365 day per year guarantee, drained dry by stripper grade hotties.

Invitation only, very high standards, especially for the men. A radical left organization.

Right here, prediction of financial hell for millennials.

For those who want it, for those who can meet our standards, the solution will be in my organization.

youtube.com

SJG

^^^ twat

DC9428,

Most interesting. The reason I had mentioned part time job was to avoid being trapped in the college world, and to avoid being seen as immature. None of this really has anything to do with money.

But as you have explained more, I see things differently now.

I don't know if you could set up a first step in career building.

Yes, it does sound like the college is a high pressure environment, you could say like a cult.

I say war zone, as once one gets to a point where they see how screwy the world is, if you want to do anything, you have to adopt a war like posture. For myself, I really am my own private army and my own private CIA combined.

Again, I wish you well. It does all come down to what choices you want to make. There are no norms, except for the insanity of the herd.

I recommend this to everyone, and you do not need the newest edition, the important parts are timeless.

amazon.com

But very few people have actually had the presence of mind to hear what the book is saying.

And then the only book I have ever found which goes deeper.

amazon.com

And both these authors have other books, which are also very good.

FWIW, in my organization, it will never have to be this tough. It would all be worked out before you enter. Any problems along the way, large or small, just let your Advocate known and things will be fixed within hours.

SJG

The Graham Bond Organization

"So like a commune. Nice"

Communalism is one of the main ways of beating Capitalism.

Outer order and inner order. For the former, they live where they want, or where they already do. But many will likely want our people as roomates. Makes things so simple and problem free.

For the inner order, they do live communally on our properties, but that takes longer to set up.

Typically people will be employed in one of 3 ways:

1. Outside employment, as they have now, but our people will be helping them and opening doors and boosting their income. Should more than offset our dues.

2..In our industries, while living on our properties. Just a small cash stipend, but lots of other in kind benefit, and also a generous golden parachute program, so people have the option to leave, are not trapped. Women get 4x what the men get.

1. For those who want, we will make them into entrepreneurs, building the first one or two companies for them, getting their day job money, but letting them have 100% ownership of their companies, while providing everything they need to make sure they are successful.

And never ever will anyone ever hear anything like, "Get a job, be self-reliant, depend on yourself," as these are exactly what we are trying to break down.

SJG

@DC9428 buddy:

I learned early on (15 y/o) that I needed to take the initiative to approach, flirt, and ask out women. Or not even ask them out but tell them we’re going out, depending on how I’m reading her. I’ve found most women, either thru genetics or social conditioning, respond to traditional gender roles. I never found the passive approach to work out as well. Not sure if you have a hang up there or not.

Given any 3 women, 2 usually say yes, or at least 1 does. I’ll take those odds. It’s not like you’re marrying them so the cycle needs to repeat as part of basic socializing or dating. I also met a lot of dates — including Mrs. 77 — through mutual friends. So be sure to let families and friends know you’re open to blind dates.

In the fraternity it’s wasn’t so much the frat per se but everything around it that helped with success. We got out lots, went to the city, around town, or other cities. We did philanthropy work. We had hobbies. And usually went out with a buddy (aka wingman). All which help to make you interesting to the opposite sex. But still, doing and taking the initiative was needed more often than not.

I’ve never had the luxury of not having a job. I’ve worked for cash since 12 and W-2 since 15. I didn’t have the luxury of not working in college despite a full course load of STEM. I usually went out one night a week (where I didn’t study, usually Friday or Saturday) and one afternoon on the weekends. Otherwise I worked on my coursework or research in the lab. I used my contacts through my H.S. talented and gifted program along with my charisma to land a job in one of the college research labs. It only paid $7-8 an hour back in the ‘90s but it was enough to go out and socialize with, food, and books.

PhatBoy99,

My organization has a small handful of people now. But we have no dedicated real estate, dues being paid, or legal incorporations yet.

So much of this is like so many other things, a chicken and egg matter. And also like so many other things, it is going to come down to lawyers. I am also fighting for some political and business victories. Our group is not primarily about money, it is about taking political scalps.

But as it is intended to be funded:

1. Men will pay dues. Women pay nothing in most cases. This money will be strictly accounted for and be used mostly for club houses ( leased, owned, or built from the ground up ), for the shuttle van fleet, and for my annual salary of $1.

2. There will be other money put in by companies I control. This will be accounted for legally and ethically, but it will not be as tied up as the member dues money. It will be used to pay for the other things to make the organization go. It could just as well be money added to may salary, though that would make it taxable. As such though, I do not feel as obligated to be as consensus directed in how it is spent.

3. People in the outer order provide for their own livelihoods and living spaces. But, we will always be opening doors for them and grooming them for their next position. No one is ever expected to face things alone. That is the main point of the group. The Self-Reliance Ethic is completely bogus, and we will be working to take it down.

4. We will run industries which have huge advantages because with in what the law allows, we will be recirculating money internally and as such avoiding most all taxes. And there is not that much need for real estate in the US beyond what will be covered by our religious exemption from property tax.

5. Our people, working together, and being straight as air traffic controllers, and always continuing to educate themselves, will be able to take over and dominate many industries. We will be a major intellectual attack force.

6. What do guys spend money on? On the opposite sex, on impressing the opposite sex, and in paying the opposite sex. Well in our group none of that will ever be necessary. You can just terminate all of it. In the temple everyone is equal.

7. Our women will be extremely well taken care of, and as it suits them, getting the same career building and education benefits the men do. They will also have a very generous golden parachute deal in case they decide to bail out at mid life. This will come via the stock in some of our companies. So once they see first hand how all this works, you can expect that when it is there turn to staff the temple, that they will go total bonobo.

8. Within the tax laws, you are allowed to deduct the costs of a red ink business for some years, from your day job income. You are even allowed for some time and within some parameters to deduct the costs of a zero revenue start up company. We will use all of these in starting our companies and in helping those of our members who seek such. So very little income or build up of equity will ever be exposed to taxation. While this does not create money from nothing, it certainly does help one use what they have well.

9. Not an expert on this and needing to learn more, there is the issue of donating money to a charity, and even donating stock to a charity. So ours will be a religious tax deductible charity. So you can deduct up to a maximum of 50% AIG. But then you really try to avoid ever having straight pay income. Instead you go for Capital Gains. The tax form for such is extremely complex, but roughly it is about 1/2 the tax load.

10. Again, need to learn more and have expert help, but it looks like you can deduct the other 50% of AIG by purchasing land, or rather even having a company purchase land, having a company which is little more than just a land holding company. Then it donates the land to a Certified Nature Conservancy. The land maybe required to stay in agricultural production. So it might be either soy beans for bio-diesel, or tomatoes. So it is simply a matter of building companies and assets, via money from the customers they serve. Then donating shares and really whole companies, they are worth big money, but they cost no real cash to build, just sweat. And then likewise, you never want to own anything, if at all possible. Anything you own had to have been purchased with taxable funds.

11. This may all sound complex, but it is just part of living in our world. The only people who really get a raw deal in our society are those who actually work for a living. We will never be doing this.

12. And then it is out of these same types of actions, companies which were built with sweat, but virtually no cash, backing the generous golden parachutes for the women, and 25% that much for the men. Luring the women out of sex work is not a big deal. The real issue will always be luring them out of marriage. We hope they stay. When they do their allocated shares get sold to build more residence halls. But seeing that that legally enforceable parachute is there should help them feel better about the whole thing.

Thank you PhatBoy99 for asking.

SJG

The Urban Agenda: Katherine S. Newman on the low-wage labor force
youtube.com

In hand now, Bizet, by Winton Dean, so I can finally read some about the opera Carmen amazon.com

Giuseppe Verdi en.wikipedia.org

Aida, 1871 en.wikipedia.org

It will work, if people want it to work. And I know that once they see it, they will want it. Though harder to recruit the men than the women.

Fairly autocratic at the top level during my life time. But set up to be more democratic by those who succeed me.

I studied long and hard why monasticism has always depended on celibacy. Could there be a sexual monastery? And when it comes to women, don't sex and money always seem to the two sides of the same coin?

Well, I have thought long and hard about all of this, and looked at all the examples I could find.

One of the most interesting examples of a sexual monastery would be the Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh. Now his group had its short comings, and it really only worked in Puna India, never when it moved to the US. It was though that many of the MBOT dancers were with his group, working some of the week, then flying up to Oregon, each week.

But the Rajneesh group showed that at least some people want to live in a very different sort of a world.

And I am also inspired by the German Fraunhofer Society en.wikipedia.org

And then also the British Arts and Crafts Movement en.wikipedia.org

And then Marx and Engels said that they wanted to abolish the family. Though they did not say much about what this would look like. But Alexandra Kollontai, Lenin's first minister of Women's Affairs, definitely wanted to abolish marriage and the family. Her writings are usually included in feminist anthologies. en.wikipedia.org

SJG

@Dominic77,

What is being said now is that the women in elite colleges do not want BF's, relationships, or car keys and wallet dates. This is consistent with what @DC9428 is reporting. But they will initiate make out sessions with him at parties, and make a hook up. @DC9428 is actually not doing so badly.

But then the next morning the girl no longer wants to see him. This is why they are so aggressive and initiate at parties, so that they can be the ones in control.

This is actually all explained here:

amazon.com

Marriage prospects have stratified. Most women now don't want to marry a man who is not part of the elite, meaning degree from elite school and fast lane career. They know that if they marry someone who does not have that, odds are, it will go to divorce, due in part to the man having occupation and income troubles. And the woman knows that there is a huge risk of having to split a nest egg with him.

So then at the elite colleges, the ambitious women want hook ups, but not marriage prospects.

It is only after they have their own degree and their own fast lane carrier, but only with a man who has the same. They are delaying marriage. And what these authors are saying, a position they did not come to easily, was that this requires access to contraception and abortion, and that those in Red areas often have no sex education, only abstinence education and religion.

What you are telling him about assertiveness is of course correct. When dealing with women off campus, that will have a very high success rate. But with these new elite college women, no.

@DC9428,

It sounds like with the aggressive girls at parties, and with your P4P women, you are actually doing okay. Maybe a P4P woman can be turned into a GF?

Otherwise maybe you just have to be patient until you are in a position to engage with off campus women.

When I was in college there was no way in the world I would have considered anything like P4P, just no way I could have had the money. And also, there is no way I would have been receptive to the idea that P4P was the best way, or that what I wanted should not come from within the college community.

Like I explained, a good key for Elliot Rodger breaking out of the crazy world of college, might have been a part time job. But sometimes this is completely impractical.

Well, I have seen lots of people start washing out of impacted programs, they just can't keep their grades up. The course work is very demanding. Then they are out of the department, but still trying to get back in. Sometimes they will go for a job, but usually that makes it that much less likely they will get back in. More likely than not they will end up dropping out of college all together.

And then also those who never were in the impacted program, but are trying to get in. Still the same difficulties.

And then at the start of each school year, the Dean giving a little talk and explaining that these are all "Full time programs", meaning that you really are not supposed to have a job.

This is really tough! Community Colleges and CSU's not like this, at least not as much, but UC is!

So my point is that in dealing with these college girls, and perhaps with your own affairs, you are dealing with the ramifications of college being really competitive, more about that than actual education.

And then also, if you want that female aggressiveness at the parties, I suspect that you still need to be seen as one of the herd, someone who basically goes along with it all. Otherwise you will be denied, and this is where Elliot Rodger found himself.

So for me, college was the first time in my life where I met adults who actually used their brains. It was the first time I met people who actually knew things which were worthy of an adult. I saw this in a portion of the faculty members. It was not all. And it was in various departments. Most of the time it came down to a mathematically based understanding. I was impressed with how these faculty members were able to marshal this, and with how they continued to apply it in their publications. And it came across in their lectures and in the classroom discussions.

So I floated the idea in a previous post, suppose someone wanted to become a Math Professor. This not really a money or status based decision. It instead is just that one wants to use their intellect and master and stay current in a challenging body of knowledge.

Does this mean one would be cut out from the hook up girl friendliness?

To really get an education does one need to become a Voluntary Celibate (Vocel) ?

People from when I was in college had told me that it was not compatible with having a GF. And one roommate did end up washing out, mostly tied to spending time with a GF.

I'm glad that this thread has expanded now beyond the OP's intent, and that it continues to draw in more people. I become ever more convinced that traditional colleges have serious limitations, and that for many people they really do need other alternatives. Cost, pressure, and just a negative social environment are only some of the reasons.

The organization I am building is intended to remedy all of this.

SJG

The Urban Agenda: Katherine S. Newman on the low-wage labor force youtube.com

Katherine Newman - America's "missing class" presentation youtube.com

Elliot Rodger The Virgin Killer 2014 Isla Vista killings Documentary youtube.com

IV Deli Mart google.com

Move around the streets, then turn back to maps and keep zooming out to see where this is: google.com

Watching this video now, I feel that the commentators have absolutely no insight. Its all just, "Bad pathetic guy did something bad."

Let me again emphasize that I find the Elliot Rodger case extremely intersting, but I do not agree with his interpretations, or with his actions.

Soon I will have in hand the 2018 book with the 16 page chapter about Rodger in hand!

King Crimson Live in Frejus,1982 youtube.com

@DC9428,

Reflecting on what you have said, I believe that if you approached a girl and asked her out, the odds should be good. Sounds like you are accustomed to FWB arrangements, so you must be quite laid back, easy going. So probably, you can get more of the same.

Also reflecting on the very sound advice Dominic77 gave about how to do itome of the girls only wnat those party hooks up which they initiate, fine. But you should probably not have much trouble getting a girl to go out with you.

You might ask the girl to go on a car keys and wallet date, or you might pick something simpler and more confined to the campus environment. I don't think you'll find any problem.

Now, about Elliot Rodger, only having watched this for the first time last week, the interview with his father Peter,

youtube.com

I think the real issue was always between Elliot and Peter. Somewhere Elliot had said that he wanted to kill his mother, step mother, and some step sibling, but that he was afraid to kill his father.

So listening to Peter, I say that this really always was about his father. He just wants his father to finally listen and hear what he is saying. But no, Peter is calling Elliot a liar.

So then of all the Incel stuff and MRA and Anti-Feminist stuff, that really is just fluff. The people at UC and Isla Vista, this never really was about them anyway. The really don't even count as spear carriers in Elliot's drama. They are more like flora and fauna, or wild life. Elliot wanted his father to finally listen and to hear what his life is like. He wouldn't, so he finally put a message out the only way he thought he could.

I don't go along with this Incel interpretation. But I do see though, that there may be another issue, the need to become Vocel

Vocels (Voluntary Celibates) tuscl.net

SJG

Baker Gurvitz Army youtube.com

Barbara Dennerlein (1984) - The lady is a tramp youtube.com

Wersi concert youtube.com

youtube.com

Indiana University

Carmen, part 1, might only work on Mozilla purl.dlib.indiana.edu

part 2 media.dlib.indiana.edu

@DC9428 posted: “And that is why it has been so difficult to wake up the next morning, text the girl, and get told she was only looking for a one time thing. “

I also think that the communication the next day needs to be a phone call (voice!) or f2f. Text or email is no good. It’s too impersonal, too casual. Hearing her voice on the other end and her hearing your voice is key. It’s different in her mind. Hearing a deep, masculine voice does different things in her head. It can help build lust. You cannot do that over text.

Plus calls or f2f build little heart palpitations. Is her gonna call? Oh shit he’s calling! What should I say? Play it cool … Hello?

You’re missing all of that nuance and emotion. It’s part of the chase. Text kills that completely. Sterilizes it. Sanitizes it.

I ALWAYS f2f or phone call. She generally KNOWS I’m serious and knows I want to make her pick up. Especially if I call twice. This is never a problem, because I make it fun for her and let her know what I expect. Most oblige.

@DC9428 posted: “2. I do ask them out on dates, usually they just don't respond.”

The first ever girl I asked out, I asked her out. I was an anxious ball of nerves, even though I knew she would say yes. She said yes. At that point, I made a decision. I would never ask a girl out again. I would tell her I taking her out. I grew the confidence then and there. ‘I didn’t want to give her a 50/50 to said no.

No one gave me this advice. I don’t think people gave advise on this sot of thing. I was just a teen figuring this out on my own as I stumbled along.

I’ve generally got good feedback from telling them we’re going out or telling them I’ll pick them up. The feedback from most was the confidence (of my voice or body language) was intoxicating. And they wanted go out with me just to see if I could back it up.

Here’s another story to help convince you. One girl, I think she was another cheerleader or some other “it” girl, I was flirting with her. I joked with her that I was going to pick her up tonight at 8 PM and we would go/do ‘X.’ She joked, “no, you’re not.” I said, “oh yes I am.” . this went back and forth a little bit … I countered, “Oh you will, because you’ll have on something nice.” she said, “Well, you can come to by house at Eight all you want, but it won’t matter, because I won’t be ready.” She was laughing playfully with each response, i.e, can you believe the gall this guy has.

I didn’t think about it much until I got home. I really didn’t think it would actually work I quickly threw something on. For some reason, said fuck it. I just drive by the house to prove to myself it didn’t work. I arrived a few minutes before 8, slowed down a few houses before hers. See the lights weren’t even on! She’s probably not even home. I pulled into the dark driveway to turn around and head back. The front lights came and just she gave out, said good bye to her parents, waved to me, and started to lock her door.

I was completely it fucking worked. Completely. Stunned. I forget to even get out and open the door for her. She just jumped in and set in the passenger seat excited. I felt like the king. I still feel the heart in my chest as a recount this story today.

Most Every girl is approachable. There’s maybe the right way to do it. Part of it is investing in yourself. Part of it is persistence. Part of it is skill in talking to her. Part of it is challenging her if she doesn’t accept. Part of it is social proof (i.e., seeing you with your buddies and how you carry yourself). If you’re in shape, tall, have a handsome face, and a deep voice .. you are half way there.

@SJG posted: “really no one though has been saying that these college environments, where these shootings just like the high school shootings are occurring, do have some problems with them.”

To question that I think upsets the enclave of these neighborhoods and schools that the parents helped to create. They crave the monoculture, thinking they are immersing their children with the best for learning. So say that these schools have issues — not present in mixed environment schools, like an urban school — is to say the “inferior” school is preferable attributes to the “superior” schools. For parents that build an identity around this, it proposes that somehow “they were wrong.”

The collective parents and conforming children of these parents (and educators and administrators and LE) would rather people like Elliot be made into a scapegoat.

@phatboy99 posted: “I think the parents could have invested more in him and help him work on his coping skills. “

Yes. No doubt the environment was no good for him. Part of his coping skills would be to just deal with it. But the other side would be for Elliot to know that they environment was not good for him and take himself out of it or work with his parents to do so. sometimes I worry that people (or parents to a child) may keep themselves in a bad situation to save face. Which isn’t healthy nor wise.

@SJG posted: “The kinds of school shootings being talked about here are like Columbine, or like school after school after school.”

Columbine was different than the others. Dylan and Eric had (or believed to have had) more in common with serial killers or mass murderers than the school shootings that followed Columbine. I think Eric Harris was a unique sort of killer and he played off of and complimented Dylan Klabold in a way that fueled one another. Maybe if perhaps the two of them weren’t in the environment, as one without the other certainly could have changed the dynamic.

I can see where you are saying the environment was no good, and if you take them out, that changes the outcome. But with the Columbine kids, we would need to go a step farther and isolate them from one another, as well. I like free association, but sometimes it is best for everyone’s good. I’m not sure know should be making these decisions though. Ideally it should be someone who can spot this (the kind himself, a parent, the kid’s mentor, etc. .. not a bureaucrat. They are not qualified and don’t really know the kid well enough and may just be trying to cover their asses (CYA). That solution (CYA) is no good. Too much centralized power, too.

@DC9428 posted: “I actually did end up falling for one of them at the end of my junior year though, didn't go well, she wasn't looking for that but I don't feel that it crushed me either. “

That’s young love. But it is best to not get to emotionally attached too soon. Not unless you are on the same page and think you might propose. You live and learn. I say, if you are 100% sure you won’t propose and marry, and you are catching close feelings like that, you may need to cut back, or cut her lose (as backwards as that sounds!). It make no sense to love someone that can’t or won’t love you back.

I’ve been there a couple times. One of them was because of a flaw in me. I sort of knew that at the time. Not as perfect as what I have now. But with more maturity, experience, and having grown up, I would have made one of those work, all the way to marriage. But it was not to be. Right girl, wrong time. Wrong me. So I’m glad it worked out that way. Still painful at the time. Live and learn. I had to make lots of mistakes first. Not even I have all the answers. I still don’t.

@phatboy99 posted: “And I think white America's gun obscession is a root of many problems. There are people who believe guns are a god given right but dont believe health care or housing is a human right.”

It’s part of the collective white Protestant Ethic present in this country from day one. I share this, as SJG will tell you. I could explain it to you, sometime. But I doubt I’ll convince you. And I doubt you’ll convince me otherwise. But rights are freely given from God or arise from nature itself. You aren’t given rights. You keep your rights by arming yourself. This just won’t be a productive debate, so I will disengage.

@DC9428 posted: “One guy fucked 30 girls in a single year, and had sex a total of 30 times. Another guy, had one girlfriend that he had sex with every day over the course of a year, so 365 times. Why is the first guy seen as the highly sexual one despite the other having over 12 times as much sex? Why are so many people more concerned with the number of people they have sex with than they are with the frequency with which they get to have sex? It makes no sense to me.”

Loyalty. The one-guy or the one-girl wins in society’s mind. Always.

Also, always allow a girl to save face in a one-night stand. Give her that. It plays into loyalty and slut shaming. It’s unfortunate. But its what we have.

But, what purpose does a long term (more than 1 year?) girlfriend serve, if you won’t commit to marriage with her? Are you looking for serial short term girlfriends? I don’t think, except for cases iike @twnetyfive writes about long term FWBs, that a single girlfriend, so say, 9 years (like larryfishman) solves for anything. If anything it stunts ones growth in dating and meeting new partners.

I think there exists a happy medium between the two extremes. One end is one night stand hookups. On other end is girlfriends for 9 years. I think you may be looking for something like this. I know I was until I committed.

@SJG posted: “What is being said now is that the women in elite colleges do not want BF's, relationships, or car keys and wallet dates. This is consistent with what @DC9428 is reporting. But they will initiate make out sessions with him at parties, and make a hook up. @DC9428 is actually not doing so badly.”

Ah, ha! That make sense.

In some ways, I would have been better served had I approached the last 2 years of H.S. and ALL of college/university in this manner. Either just marry. Or. Just aggressive one-night hookups. Almost like voluntary celibacy. Getting sex like that, 3 Friday’s a month or 3 Saturdays a month could have worked out.

Back then in the ‘90s we were still of the mindset “when are we getting married? Are we getting married? Sex outside of marriage is a sin!”

I think I would have been a better student in the environment DC9428 finds himself in. But that is a 40 y/o looking back at it with the mind and experience of a 40 y/o. I’m not a 20 y/o any more.

Maybe this changes everything? Hmmm. Forget GFE. You can get that later. Just hookup. Be single. Study motherfucking hard. Get a couple degrees. Internships. Research studies. Get a graduate degree, maybe PhD. When, and only then, worry about GFE.

Because a male with all of those is a real catch. A guy like that will be having to swap away GFE girlfriends or potential wives with a barbed wire bat. That guy is a catch.

This really changes the whole calculus. I most ponder this …

@SJG posted: “So then at the elite colleges, the ambitious women want hook ups, but not marriage prospects. It is only after they have their own degree and their own fast lane carrier, but only with a man who has the same. They are delaying marriage. “

I am not sure I want one of these women. I would rather, if I were in those shoes, get a young 18-25 woman, who has not gone to college, who has a H.S. degree, who is more traditional. That is, if I wanted a family with children. But this preference is unique to me. I don’t push this on others.

@SJG posted: “Well, I have seen lots of people start washing out of impacted programs, they just can't keep their grades up. The course work is very demanding. Then they are out of the department, but still trying to get back in. Sometimes they will go for a job, but usually that makes it that much less likely they will get back in. More likely than not they will end up dropping out of college all together.”

This is correct. I huge problem with my education was the needing to work. Working in the research labs were I did my undergrad research was ok and did me some good. But it was bone crushingly hard and stunted my academics to work alongside going to school. This is the life of the non-traditional student.

Where a traditional student goes to UG from 18-22, does not work, then gets a masters in 1-2 years or PhD in 4-8 years. Especially for PhD, taking a vow of poverty to learning to serve academia is almost a must. I wish I would have done this path instead of the one I undertook.

Part of this was I had been non-stop distracted by girls from 15 on. It was fun. I question if it was worth it or worth what I traded for it.

@DC9428 posted: “I do have a hangup there, I'm scared to death of initiating. I can ask girls out but I'm very scared of making physical moves. “

Is this in any way related to the #METOO movement? Or to #CONSENT or #RAPECULTURE in general? I guess what are you scared of? Say I was a dead ringer for your ATF and I am at a college party. You approach me and initiate.

No imagine 2 or 3 of the worse case scenarios happen. Tell me about them. Let’s start there…

@DC9428 posted: ”I’m actually worse now than I was when I was a teenager because I was more impulsive and really kind of reckless back then”

Me too.

@DC9428 posted: ”but now its like running into a mental brick wall. I always tell myself I can do it, then I actually hang out with a girl, and I can’t.”

You’re eye contact, smile, height, and the sound of your voice are the ice breakers. As is speaking up and not softly. I don’t know if its genetic or social conditioning. It’s like us men looking at her tits, the curve of her ass, or her feminine qualities (short statue, higher voice, subcutaneous fat, slender).

Usually a little about yourself, “man I had a long day. Bone crushing hard mechanics P454 exam.” Work in maybe something funny. Then get her to vent to you or maybe get to know a couple things about her. Or maybe intro about something shared in front of you, like the music or the band playing. Get a connection going, it’s light hearted. If she tells you a couple things, remember 2 of them. Then work them back into conversation. It tells her that you listened to her.

Let her know early on that your find her Sexy. Let your intentions be known. Own it. Don’t hide it. Otherwise you are stuck in friend zone because you weren’t in the Goldilocks zone of 1) aggressive enough and 2) not too aggressive or creepy. Most any girl likes you know men (you) find her sexy. It makes her confident and she calms down a little.

1. you find her physically attractive (sexy)
2. you find her intelligence sexy (who she is, what she’s about, her skill, whatever is going on in her life.)

When you have #1 and #2 connection, you show her that you are interested (love?) the whole her. #1 is almost right away. #2 takes about 9 minutes of convo (BTW, notice how strippers do this? Hmm. 2-3 songs .. then SELL the dance? Same thing).

The girl sort of decides #1 about you (sleep with your physically) either immediately or in 30-60 seconds. The girl sort of decides #2 about you (are you interesting? social proof? connection?) either in 60 seconds or 9 minutes.

It’s something like that. I’m just guessing, but that’s my gut feedback and intuition from flirting with girls and it working out. or striking out. Sometimes you can save it. But it takes a shit load of confidence and literally not taking no for an answer. Some girls like the challenge and will let you back in, if you show you are up for the task.

But really it’s mostly, can you do a ice breaker. Either direct and forceful, for some girls. Or laid back and take your time. But with either approach, you let her know that you find her Sexy or attractive. Only “nice guys” hide that. The nice guy approach never worked for me.

Some girls who at first said no , playfully. Wanted to see how bad I wanted it. Would I pursue her and challenge her? She’s pre-disqualifying losers and weak men. She wants to see if you can back it up. Sort of a stupid social dance/joust. But there you are.

I think you have to reach down into your gut .. down low .. reach deep. And just fake it before you make it. The confidence from #1 girl, let’s you get #2. And #2 gets you #4,5,&6. It’s a snowball.

Plus if girls look around and see you talking to other guys or girls. They get interested. But not it you talk to all of the girls or every girl. Obviously that is creepy and desperate. It’s the opposite of social proof.

Usually the girls watch how you act around other men. Talking slightly louder than the other guys, being chummy with them, etc. Shows you have social power. If you are literally going in there ALONE. and talking to none of the other guys ever, this is a slight disadvantage. She will see you as a outcast unworthy of being with her alone sexually. Maybe this is going with the herd.

You can counter act this by being extremely handsome, tall, jacked and shredded. Maybe this is a better approach? I exploited this but I’ve always been a big man. Not shredded but muscular. This is why we say get to the gym and get in shape.

There are also 3 groupings of girls as a typically party.

1. the girls on the edges. Barely engaged in convo and looking often into the middle of the room for a guy. These are the most receptive, open. These are the easies to approach and break the ice.
2. the girls talking in groups, but not really super engaged. They look away from time to time to see where the guys are and what they are doing. Social proof. Who’s handsome. Who’s checking her out. A littler harder to approach, but if she’s attracted to you, she’ll let you interrupt her and her friends. Probably scared of approaching guys, or looking too thirsty, or being labeled a slut.
3. the girls locked down in convo, eyes locked on each other. She probably made up her mind before arriving that she WON’T have sex. Doesn’t plan on sex. She’s approachable. But only the attractive men who are confident to do so can. She will probably shoot you down. Let her know you that’s alright. you have your standards. Don’t neg her. Maybe challenge her and her friends a little. You might have to come back later. See if she follows. Or if she looks at your later. You can probably re-approach. Or see if she breaks way from the group. Or breaks off with her wing girl. Having a wing man might help. But, like most girls, if you get her interested in you, you can approach. Having an inventive mindset and being persistent without being creepy take a little practice,

With #3, you’ll make mistakes. And she’ll tell ALL of her friends. And probably everyone in your area code. So it’s like being humiliated in front of TWENTY GIRLS at once. This is why you need to be confident, shrug it off, and own it. Try next party or another girl.

You get better at it the more times you attempt it. If untying, you’re paying her a compliment every time you approach a girl and in a non-creepy way tell her she’s sexy, that you like her, and strike up a convo, and act interested in her. It give her a slight ego boost, even if you strike out. That’s partially why they go out every week. For the ego boost.

Notice how some girls never seem to NOT humble brag about being hit*on every where they go? They fucking love it. Know you know! So get out there!

:)

@DC9428 posted: “My success rate isn't that high, but even if I do get them out, I can't physically escalate, it always looks like a platonic hang out.”

Are you indicating interest? Are you telling her she’s sexy? Or Hot as fuck? Or “excusing me, but I couldn’t stop but admiring at your ass?” Otherwise you kind of get friend zoned like that.

Are you kissing her, after talking to her for an hour? Or kissing her after she has had a couple drinks? That indicates to her your sexual attraction and a clear way. For that to work, it helps if you can build a slight back and forth of sexual tension and teasing between the two of you. For at least 9 minutes. If not a whole hour. At some point she’s going to kind of feel it, too, and well you lean in (in a socially acceptable and total non-creepy way) to kiss her, she will want to kiss you back. Maybe as you lean in a brush her cheek or nose. Or when you can smell each others (totally minty fresh!) breath when you lean in.

At some point, you need to take a calculated risk. Taking calculated risks is being part of being a man.

Set one.

1. build lust/attraction, then get a first date. First dates are easy to get. Girls like the attention if you’re good at it.
2. on the first date, the whole point is to get a second date. These are a little harder to get but not much harder. But sometimes there isn’t a match. No biggies. At least the date was fun.
3. once you get the second date. It’s just a matter of time. Maybe you date for a month Or three? Or six months.

Personally for you, I’d keep it to 6 months or a year max. But if you can string together some dates that lat between 2 dates and 6 months. I think that’s good. Those you can usually get pretty good GFE out of. That’s better than one-night stands. But not as bad a boring relationships past their prime, either.

Or wait until college and skip the girlfriend for now.

I think you are not indicating your attraction or sexual interest out of fear of being rejected, or hurt, or something. You need to take a calculated risk.

@DC9428 posted: “Or maybe get on an actual online dating site when I'm not in college anymore rather than this Tinder bullshit. “

Wait? I thought tinder was a goldmine. Isn’t the odds on tinder than some girl, will say, aw fuck it, and swipe right (for you)? I thought there was always a girl who will swipe right? Is this not the case?

@DC9428 posted: “My basic plan right now is to make enough money to be able to buy enough sex to eliminate the desperation vibes,”

Not a bad idea. either this, or learn to swim the one-night stand hookup culture with the aggressive women. Given the option, because p4p was never affordable for me, I would have chosen to swim with the sharks 2-3 times a month.

good luck!

Wow, so much written here, hard for me to respond, but I'll try:

Dominic77, remember that DC is dealing with girls that pretty much jump him for hook ups at parties. They do that because they want it to be the one in control of the timing, and they want it for that one night only. So the odds are against future dating. Nothing wrong with trying. What you say about voice being better is true, but it still might not work. And young people today use texting as a polite way to not disturb the other party.

If he asks a girl out, separate from those party hook ups, then I think the odds are better, and of course f2f is the way to do it.

But remember, and this is one of my main themes, that DC is not employed outside, he is a college student, so sometimes that will mean that women will look down on such persons, see them as immature. And employment might work against his studies.

But if he wants, I say asking girls out could be great. But he might like his P4p women better.

Now Dominic77, what you are saying about Elliot Rodger and about the high schools shootings is entirely correct. Our society is like that about everything, wanting to believe that some people are just crazy, and that there are not deeper social problems being indicated.

And about someone like DC going after town girls, that will be harder as they judge a guy by his 'job', very different from the college girls. But he could still try if he wants. But it could end up meaning a problematic time commitment for him.

Sounding like a very nice guy, I am sure that if he asks college girls out and stays with his laid back FWB type of thinking, it will all work out.

And yes, school versus working is a fucked situation, and so it often does end up meaning something like voluntary poverty and voluntary celibacy. This whole area of affairs is just totally fucked!

FWIW, my organization will solve all such problems.

Non-stop distracted by girls from age 15. Welcome to the club. The way our society sets things up it is all a big problem. Surprising that we don't have more people going off the deep end.

FWIW, for those 18 years and older, my organization will solve all such problems.

DC is being quoted: “I do have a hangup there, I'm scared to death of initiating. I can ask girls out but I'm very scared of making physical moves. “

Experience will change all of this. Don't fret.

And Dominic77, things are much easier once a guy has a job and is outside of college. He almost has to fight the women off. Right now DC is in college, and that can be an infuriating crazy making situation. But until a guy experiences life outside of college, he really does not know first hand.

PhatBoy99, Elliot Rodger was living in a very strange world and with a very strange background. I say it was really all about a conflict with his father, but also with his step mother. So what you are saying I would say would be good for most people, but impossible for Elliot Rodger.

Here, try and see where it is that he is at:

youtube.com

youtube.com

DC9428:

It is a strange world we live in, and COLLEGE IS A STRANGE PLACE!

Good Luck!

So in hand right now:

The Wiley Handbook On Violence In Education, ed Harvey Shapiro (2018) Sec 1 Ch 4. Learning To Be A Rampage Shooter: The Case Of Elliot Rodger, by Ralph W. Larkin.

Larkin has previously written about Columbine, and about suburban youth issues.

SJG

OT: Assembler, C/C++, Embedded Systems, Machine Architectures, Development Systems, JTAG, Rust tuscl.net

Branching off from an earlier thread

OT: Computer Programming tuscl.net

And also

OT: Programmable Logic Devices tuscl.net

OT: Power Semiconductors, recent books about tuscl.net

Web Programming, HTML, CSS, and more tuscl.net

Programable Hand Held Calculators tuscl.net

Everything for Everyone: The Radical Tradition That Is Shaping the Next Economy, by Nathan Schneider amazon.com

Everything for everyone : the radical tradition that is shaping the next economy / Nathan Schneider. (2018)

Interview democracynow.org

The Power of Cooperatives: Nathan Schneider & Jason Wiener at The Harvard Law Forum youtube.com

Antifa, the antifascist handbook by Mark Bray amazon.com

Antifa : the anti-fascist handbook / Mark Bray (2017)

Steve Jobs ' Most Inspiring Speech EVER ( facebook login required ) facebook.com

I am glad that Steve Jobs was not being subjected to Motivational, Self-Improvement, or Financial Literacy teachers. If he was, then I am sure that he would have known that the best response, really the only response, is the middle-finger.

And some more great threads:

OT: Are Traditional Colleges and Universities Bad Environments? tuscl.net

Incels (Involuntary Celibates) tuscl.net

Vocels (Voluntary Celibates) tuscl.net

OT: Book Publishing Industry tuscl.net

Alternative Educations tuscl.net

While being yourself in a profession isn't always possible , it certainly is to a greater extent than most ppl realize.l tuscl.net

Stop holding doors for us if you don't want to talk about ending rape culture as much as wanna talk about other political issues tuscl.net

So What Do Women Like To Read? tuscl.net

BAKER GURVITZ ARMY - Live 1975 youtube.com

studio youtube.com

A lot of these kids are cruelly harassed and socially tortured while parents check out and school educators allow it and even join in.

A lot of these people who get candle ligh vigils likely pushed vulnerable awkward children to the edge and got to eat a bullet as the karma they sowed.

Do you see these same people who engage in this grow up and make amends? Generally they just move on while they fuck up and destroy other kids childhoods.

Still though no one likes to admit it when the high school QB likely deserved to bleed the fuck out.

Lots of these school shooters let people go or warn them.

The root cause is human toxicity inherited mental illness and violent media without appropriate outlets for aggression.

We really mixed a perfect cocktail of stupid and labeled it societal progress.

Sometimes the victims of that go haywire and figure fuck it if your going to rob me of my life I’ll rob you of yours.

I see a lot of karmic justice in those situations.

" A lot of these kids are cruelly harassed and socially tortured while parents check out and school educators allow it and even join in.

A lot of these people who get candle ligh vigils likely pushed vulnerable awkward children to the edge and got to eat a bullet as the karma they sowed.

Do you see these same people who engage in this grow up and make amends? Generally they just move on while they fuck up and destroy other kids childhoods.

Still though no one likes to admit it when the high school QB likely deserved to bleed the fuck out. "

Sad to say, but in large measure I agree. Hard to know what to do though.

SJG

WARNING - The following accounts are considered to be forum trolls and may not be trustworthy:

san_jose_guy - commonly referred to as SJG this forum member is usually mocked or ignored, his comments should NOT be taken in any way as legitimate

Continued responses from me, in the Vocels thread (on topic). See, tuscl.net

So here is the Incel forum, with some interesting banner ads. incels.me

And David Futrelle is the one who argues against the Incel movement: wehuntedthemammoth.com

wehuntedthemammoth.com

Toronto Incel Rampage wehuntedthemammoth.com

So I agree with David Futrelle and his opposition to the Incel Movement and an Incel interpretation.

SJG

1.7 magnitude earthquake 76 km from Tonopah, Nevada, United States earthquaketrack.com

I felt this. It was not much, but I did feel it. You learn to distinguish earth quakes from man made vibrations.

Correction, no, it was this, much closer, that I felt: earthquaketrack.com

Elliot Rodger Manifesto, My Twisted World, 11 hours, human voice reading youtube.com

baker gurvitz army elysian encounter youtube.com

Baker Gurvitz Army en.wikipedia.org

Adrian Gurvitz en.wikipedia.org

Check out this BRINKS armored car:

brinks.com

I say that they have the nicest ones. One piece body. I assume built on a walk-in van chassis. 8 bolt wheels, so likely 14,500 lb GVWR. Maybe Freightliner?

I doubt that any windows roll down, and they are all flat. But overall, nicer than what the other companies use around here.

I can't comprehend this involuntary celibacy shit, but I can think off the top of my head at least 1 guy with porn plastic surgery standards for women that can't get laid but he's broke/fat/ugly/stupid/youngish (older than me anyway). I wanna guess he is at least 30?

Well if you watch some of the videos about Elliot Rodger, the picture gets very clear:

47 minutes total youtube.com

Okay, but the Incel movement is also based on a whole lot of other premises. I do not agree with that movement at all.

Do others agree or disagree with it?

SJG

The Incel idea is just wrong. It is predicated on blaming women for something which they have not really caused, young male alienation.

Women are involved in declining sex or declining to throw themselves at a guy, but really they are already herd animals. They respond to social status structures. And these are determined mostly by men.

SJG

R Programming Langauge tuscl.net

OT: Computer Programming tuscl.net

OT: Assembler, C/C++, Embedded Systems, Machine Architectures, Development Systems, JTAG, Rust tuscl.net

Pleaser 9" and 10" pleaserusa.com

Elliot Rodger Manifesto, 2014, 11 hours, human voice reading youtube.com

Mexican Independence Day, Sept. 16th, 1810 tuscl.net

Opera Carmen tuscl.net

OT: Are Traditional Colleges and Universities Bad Environments? tuscl.net

Vocels (Voluntary Celibates) tuscl.net

Incels (Involuntary Celibates) tuscl.net

OT: Power Semiconductors, recent books about tuscl.net

Stop holding doors for us if you don't want to talk about ending rape culture as much as wanna talk about other political issues tuscl.net

I challenge Nanna Bananna tuscl.net

While being yourself in a profession isn't always possible , it certainly is to a greater extent than most ppl realize.l tuscl.net

Steve Jobs ' Most Inspiring Speech EVER ( facebook login required ) facebook.com

youtube.com Baker Gurwitz Army

Clark Kerr: Knowledge Industry youtube.com

Mario Savio on the operation of the machine youtube.com

Mario Savio Memorial Lecture: Robert Reich on Class Warfare in America youtube.com

"they notice what works even if feminists or girls say the opposite is what works."

Well that's always true. You can't listen to what women say, you have to look at what they do.

You are smart, figuring that out at a younger age, and also being very good at explaining it.

"A lot of nice shy guys are resentful because they feel that they are being asked to throw away their morals and principals in order to attract women by becoming aggressive and are told that if they don't, they'll never attract a girl and they'll be lonely forever."

You are describing the reality that Elliot Rodger was living in. Only he really did not quite understand it. For myself, I had completely rejected the moral example of my parents before I was 10yo. So I had no need to rebel against them in superficial ways. You could say that I raised myself and was a kind of an adult, long before I ever saw a college.

"What one of the dancers at my club told me, however, is that the attraction to bad boys is a college girl thing and that girls stop becoming attracted to those types when they're older, more mature, and smarter."

Well in my view its like that at college because most of the women are being supported by their parents, so they are actually rebelling against their parents. Once they have to worry about ends meeting each month, they change. But I don't really go along with them, either mode of thinking.

"So you have guys potentially having to wait eleven years before girls start becoming attracted to guys who aren't bad boys and by then a lot of the nice guys have given up trying to get girls and have become experts at coping with loneliness."

And so yes, does that lead to Voluntary Celibacy if a guy wants to make it through school? And how long can he stand to be in school? And isn't the whole situation screwed?

If Rodger could really see that the social realms he had known were very artificial, and that things need not always be like that, then I think things would have worked out.

Do you agree that we need something besides conventional colleges?

Thanks, SJG

"But you're asking literally the horniest age group to be celibate."

Well yes, but I'm not really asking that or promoting that. I'm just saying that it seems to be a choice many end up having to make, if they don't want to be getting shit on by college girls. Maybe they don't realize they are making this choice, but they are.

"ISIS terrorists are essentially Middle Eastern incels."

Very observant! But it is also true that America's political right, and its armed terrorists, are sexually frustrated young men. This is pretty much what Ralph W. Larkin is saying, and especially in the wake of Columbine.

And doesn't it make perfect sense, if a young man feels that the social order is set up to deny him access to women, that it is perfectly reasonable that he would pick of a Kalashnikov and act?

I am not encouraging celibacy, I am just saying that many who want to avoid trouble and get through school, and really learn something, and are not interested in drugs or alcohol, end up having to make the choice of Voluntary Celibacy.

OT: Are Traditional Colleges and Universities Bad Environments? tuscl.net

FWIW, my organization will completely solve all of these problems.

SJG

Yes, this is part of that 'manosphere' movement, that women should not have many rights, and basically be forced to marry, even guys they don't really feel much for.

As for Elliot Rodger, my views on him have shifted. Some say he was really gay, but could not face it. His issues go much much deeper. He decided that women would never like him, by age 13.

An unlikely conclusion. Most of the time who women go for is contextual, who they see as having social status. And then at age 13, extremely hard to tell. There was more doing on with him. I hope family members write something. But I am going to keep looking into it.

SJG

4 men from California arrested in connection with violent Virginia rally start.att.net

They're social retards who can't get laid.........

Incels - The internet's "Supreme Gentlemen" youtube.com

Men Going Their Own Way - MGTOW youtube.com

I think the above two videos are good. Caveat, I do not go along with the Incel interpretation, or with MGTOW, or with the Manosphere, and especially with anti-feminism.

"I have a boyfriend"

I used to hear that in college all the time. It is always a risk if you are approaching the girl. It can mean anything. No way to fight it.

After college, very rarely heard it.

Consider one thing, the high school and college BF is just a guy to be seen with. An adolescent culture thing.

The after college BF is a candidate husband. Much more serious thing. Far more girls are actually available.

It is all different when dealing with girls who are finanically supporting themselves. They do not like that.

SJG

Elliot Rodger had had a difficult adolescence. But if he showed up at the organization I am building, it would have gone differently. We would have made sure he was getting a suitable eduction, pursuing a suitable career.

And then remember the scene in the movie Almost Famous where the Groupie Girls decide it is time for the guy to lose his virginity, it would have been just like that.

SJG

Remember, all the girls circling around him. He did not hold out long.

SJG

Well, the idea Incel, implies conspiracy or injustice, and this is misogyny.

But I would be lying if I said that there was never a time in my life when I felt that way. As I see it now, it is not really women making a conspiracy, and it certainly is not caused by feminism. It is just that we live in a conformist and unfair world, and so young women are also a part of this.

The answer is never a war against women. Rather, its in trying to find comrades and organize and make some opening in the world.

If Elliot Rodger had had this, things would have turned out completely differently. Small artist's collectives are one example of such.

SJG

Agree agree and agree ...

DC9428 said ... "Guys who are respectful of boundaries and act more gentlemanly are ignored and rejected while aggressive, dominant men are rewarded for their behavior with sex. Men respond to what they think girls want and they notice what works even if feminists or girls say the opposite is what works. Not every college girl rewards aggressive behavior but a lot of them do. Enough of them do that it is considered to be what works in attracting them. If girls stopped rewarding aggressive guys, then I guarantee you that you will see a behavior change in males. A lot of nice shy guys are resentful because they feel that they are being asked to throw away their morals and principals in order to attract women by becoming aggressive and are told that if they don't, they'll never attract a girl and they'll be lonely forever."

This is a good analysis of the situation. Couple this with the (fairly well accepted factually) notion that a large percentage of hominid males probably simply RAPED their intended target females for a long period of evolution leading up to humankind, you get ... FRUSTRATED and violent. Some young women simply don't know how much fire they're playing with; other young women realize their power but refuse to relinquish it; yet more young women realize, value, and exploit their power.

BTW, I'm not saying rape is a good solution for this situation. Just adding a bit of historical (long-term-evolutionary) perspective.

As far as longer-term potential solutions?

1. How about convincing all hot young women that blowjobs are NOT sexual activity and are NORMAL and even RELATIVELY EXPECTED services for them when interacting with ALL MALES? That would solve it, wouldn't it? Well, it sure would, but I'm not sure how you'd convince them of that idea.

2. How about "dating advice" for socially awkward young men, but NOT the typical "a girl wants a man to treat her like a gentleman" type advice. Instead, TEACH the reticent young men that "aggression" can be "wrong" or "right" and it all depends on how you use it. Grow a more pro-active, decently-aggressive community of males. Stop letting our women do all the raising of our boys, because nearly all our women will be so misled as to why they laid hubby on their first night together, that the women are likely to tell their sons, "he treated me like a gentleman treats a lady" thus ruining their sons' chances. I suspect the a majority of the mothers of sons out there do NOT understand this situation and genuinely DO believe the bullshit they spread to their children, and if you could convince those mothers that they're really giving their sons a lifetime of hurt and anguish, you could probably make the mothers spin a different story pretty easily, thus improving the lives of the sons, AND of the daughters (from other mothers) who might have wanted to date those otherwise socially awkward sons but who never got to hook-up because they were relying on their only venue to relationship, which was to reward aggression (a.k.a. to play brinksmanship with the date-rape borderline cases).

Well we're all on the same page. Now to get the hot women there, too. Is it possible? I'm up for a groundswell movement, really, I'll run the website (anonymously, of course).

Oh and by the way, one more thing ... I think this is a temporally limited thing. The misunderstanding, as held by the reticent or socially awkward young men, is something that is at a VERY high ratio in the population, relative to the longer-term view of human history. AND the verbalization of the (quasi-false) requirement that young men NOT be unreasonably aggressive is also at a high. AND the (rather false) notion that females want a male who is NEVER aggressive ("treats me like a lady" and "doesn't push for sex, because women don't like sex except with a committed long-term partner" blah blah) is at a very high level relative to longer-term history, too. All the factors put us in a "perfect storm" situation for this particular problem, I think. If you look at any other period or location in history, especially looking at it by means of cultural documents such as literature, drama, paintings, prevailing cultural myths, then (I think) you'll find that the boy-is-too-much-of-a-wimp-to-get-laid story has rather different parameters. In different cultures, other than the North American latter-20th and early-21st C period, the story is made much more public and not lied about, and/or the women are chastised for teasing the boy and for leading him on, and/or the men are taught to be demanding (perhaps in a respectful way; perhaps simply by violence; depends on the particular historical culture), and/or the mothers don't lie to their sons quite as much as they do now'days, and/or young females are thought that they're "supposed" to be much more full of sexual proclivity and pro-activity than they are today, and/or ... lots of other factors. Each culture has its ups and downs, of course. Our current treatment of this particular issue is at a perfect-storm level for creating the InCels situation / movement / problem.

Book and DC, I partially agree with you two, but also I disagree.

I don't think we should be teaching young women to give blow jobs. That kind of stuff works itself out. And I don't think we need to be teaching young men to be more aggressive. That also works itself out. Women usually like a guy who is assertive. But this does not mean aggressive to the point that it is non-consensual.

I do say that boys need adult men in their lives. Being raised entirely by women is no good.

But I am not even going along with this Incel concept. That implies a conspiracy, a female conspiracy, and I do not see this at all. Feminism is not the problem, it has mostly been part of the solution.

SJG

DC and Book, part of the reason which men are not taught much of anything about sex and dating is that around 40% of our population attends church regularly. Most of these churches only exist because they preach that sex outside of marriage is sinful.

This is built in at the core of Roman Catholicism. Demoninational Protestantism sometimes has lightened up, but sometimes not.

But then with the Evangelicals, it is a crusade. Some are even getting girls to take chastity pledges.

And then the home schooling movement, primarily a work around for racial integration, it started with wanting to opt out of even the most basic kinds of sex education.

SJG

This country has changed much in recent decades. Not everyone goes along with the idea of sex outside of marriage. Some churches us opposition to this as their main money maker.

So this Incel concept, largely misogyny, has been deployed in the political realm, hitting people not really prepared for it.

SJG

SJG Portal sites.google.com

Trump, separating children and parents: democracynow.org

Vatican Canonizes Salvadoran Archbishop Óscar Romero, Who Was Killed by a U.S.-Backed Death Squad democracynow.org

They tried to film this in El Salvador, but they quickly got ejected. So it was filmed in Mexico.

Romero (1989) Trailer - John Duigan, Raul Julia youtube.com

youtube.com

imdb.com

Pope Francis Canonizes, Oscar Romero ( and this has been long awaited ) youtube.com

and more democracynow.org

Missouri Woman Fired For Blocking Black Man From Entering Apartment Complex yahoo.com

The Incel Movement is just a reactionary anti-feminist and misogynist movement

SJG

Baker Gurvitz Army - Memory Lane youtube.com

Peter Kuznick: Three False Myths Americans Believe (about WWII) youtube.com

Oliver Stones Untold History of the United States Prequel A youtube.com

The Concorde youtube.com

TJ Street farm6.staticflickr.com

So there are problems and conflicts in this world, and in how it appears to young men. But the problem is too little feminism, not too much. Feminism mostly drives young women and our society to the left.

I do not go along with the Incel movement.

But probably it is true that in older times, a less aggressive man will end up with a girl friend and wife. Its simply that the culture, like church groups and friend groups, will set it up.

Well, so unless others want to keep adding to this thread, I'm inclined to let it die out now.

Continuing Thread Vocels (Voluntary Celibates) tuscl.net

SJG

Everything for everyone : the radical tradition that is shaping the next economy / Nathan Schneider. (2018)

Clamato, great tomato juice for drinking straight.

clamato.com Motts LLP Plano TX motts.com

TJ Street farm6.staticflickr.com