OT: musings on Adulting and savings (long)

It's very simple you either need to increase your income with side job(s), or decrease your spending...There is no magic formula to extract the savings. In my case I work the equivalent of 2 full time jobs...I'm a programmer and on the side I trade bitcoin, litecoin, ethereum and other virtual currencies.. I don't think my wife would tolerate living below our means, she is used to spending whatever she feels like and she also works full time at a bank as a VP.

@Dominic77 why don’t you look into barter exchange where you do something you’re able to and in return you get them to do something that you are spending money on, it doesn’t seem to me that you are saving enough. If I were you I’d put a fixed amount into a regular savings account every pay period before paying any bills. If the amount is $100. Per pay period at the end of a year you should have (assuming you are paid biweekly) $2600. That should allow you to put some into an IRA and buy an ETF like SPY or DIA or even fidelity’s Targeted retirement funds it will compound nicely In a short time frame.

I’m going to refrain from pushing too hard - but unless you have a pension from a previous employer - or if you have a few million in lottery earnings in an interest bearing account - it’s a bit late to start thinking about adulting.

Go online to a Fidelity or Vanguard site and use one of their retirement calculators to get an idea of how much you will need to retire by a certain age. It will probably be a painful exercise.

You can use a 401k through your employer - or an IRA if your employer doesn’t offer one. But you should start it now - and you should invest the max allowed. Automatic deductions should be taken out each pay period.

You might be your own enemy - as you don’t seem to see the urgency in the need for disciplined saving/investment.

I look at it in a very simple way. I don’t want to work until I’m too old to enjoy my non working years. I put a lot away - and it’s painful to see what I earn vs what I take home. But it adds up over time.

I’d recommend you start automatic deductions - put it in a low fee investment - and leave the money there to grow over a long term. You don’t need crazy returns - but you should get it started now.

@Cashman don’t forget to include SS in your calculation otherwise the amount needed becomes overwhelming to most.

And I’d strongly recommend not getting a divorce - as divorce is expensive! It will take a good chunk of everything you have saved - and your house - and a car. That’s before you pay the lawyers.

Twentyfive - true. SS can help. I generally don’t use it in my calculation, but it would help Dominic.

I think the important thing is to start now. Invest through automatic deductions. Don’t think about touching the money. Don’t even look at the balances - as that might look like free money.

Wife and I have a retirement plan A - where we save and have enough money to live a half decent lifestyle until we die. Just in case we have plan B - which means drawing straws to see who has to shoot the other and then themselves.

@euclid_max_starr
I’ve read that before, 2 income streams, but live off the smaller stream, never touch the larger stream. Jay Leno is a big proponent of that. I need to look into that. It sounds like 2 or more income streams are common with Tusclers and millionaires. Thanks

@twentyfive
one sink of money is take-out food 1-3 times a week, to give my wife a rest. She and I have been talking that I should cook more Fri night most of the weekend. With the two of us sharing it. That would be cheaper than take out.

I tend to do all of my car repairs and home repairs myself. So it’s not like I’m paying tradesmen or daycare personnel. Though I get what you’re saying. I need to dive deeper into that.

I did have a side gig or gigs back in 2010 but the leads all dried up and so did the work after 6 or 8 months. I think networking and maintaining contacts is where I need to improve. I used to get $45-60/hr there for 8-16 hrs a week. The wife commented that helping to book 10 hours of work (with her as my assistant) payed more than her 40 hr job used to. We’ve been trying to get ALL IN there to get that rolling I just struggle to get leads. Or what leads I do get they want to pay with with old , ancient computer equipment or something low-ball barter like that.

I’ll keep working at it.

The other option is to sling boxes at UPS for $12 hour 4-5 hours a day. I don’t want to sound ungrateful, but I think I can get more than that using my brain. That would get me an extra $640/mo after taxes and union dues.

I was trying to transfer an extra $100. But then I find I’d be short at the end of the month, and transfer it back. Since I’d be short to buy dog food or I wouldn’t have gas money 3 days before payday or something hit and I was out $29 for overdraft. It was a struggle to resist transferring the money back.

I see guys making 22-24%/year in the market or 700% on bitcoin, and thinking, damn, I should be a capitalist, too. It’s a reminder that time is short and I’m losing time.

Thanks for the feedback. I mean it.

Investing is usually just glorified gambling.

Saving money is good, so long as you are not having to sell yourself to get it, and so long as you don't have something else you want to do with the money, like invest it into your own affairs.

Some radical common sense thinking which gets into the area you are describing:

New Road Map Foundation
https://vickirobin.com/about/projects/ne…

https://www.amazon.com/Your-Money-Life-T…

The Four Illusions of Money and the Non-Money Truths Which They Hide:

http://www.wholeearth.com/issue/2024/art…

And remember, one's worth as a human being and status as an 'adult' do not depend on what they do with money or how much of it they have, or on how well they comply with the 'self-reliance ethic'.

SJG

MLK's Radical Years
https://www.democracynow.org/2018/1/25/m…

Eyes On The Prize, #6
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQT7S8fu…

You aren’t making anything using your brain at the moment so UPS is a good option untill something better presents itself, why don’t you guys prepare a bunch of meals on a day you’re off and freeze them for use during the week guys aren’t making 22-24 percent in the market or 700 percent on bitcoin that haven’t any savings accumulated. You are a smart guy chasing fairytales isn’t the way to go and you know it.

And shut the fuck up SJG adults are having a convo here go to your room and don’t come out till dinner is served.

I’d look more into UPS. The important thing is to get a foot in the door. Check out their benefits package too.

Look at lots of options - and swallow some pride too. I was laid off in May - and I applied everywhere! I applied to several parts of UPS - to do deliveries - and to do analysis.

If I got a driver spot - I’d jump all over it. I’d work as many hours as they’d allow. I’d pump as much into the 401k as possible - and I’d push my resume around for an internal transfer to something that fits my other skills.

There are many ways to skin a cat - and it requires creative thought - and data mining too. It’s not easy - but it can pay off.

twentyfive, go and soak your head. We will see if just water is enough to do the job.

Dominic77, if you have any debts, better to focus on paying them off, before trying to save, as they carry high interest. Car loans don't always have the best terms.

Sounds like you are trying to set up automatic savings, to press you to budget. Well that Vicki Robin and Joe Dominques book and program are what you really need.


And of course in the organization which I am building, all of these issues will be solved at core:

1. Current financial needs
2. Long term financial future and safety net
3. On going life long education
4. Employment and entrepreneurial opportunities which use you abilities and drive from your values
5. 365 days a year drained dry by stripper grade hotties

SJG

Dream Hoarders
https://www.amazon.com/Dream-Hoarders-Am…

Who is "hoarding" the American Dream? video:
https://millercenter.org/american-forum/…

@Cashman1234
Don’t hold back. Punch full strength. Please. I don’t mind.

What I mean by adulting is acting like an adult. I see guys on here buying investments, or when they need a car/truck, they just pay cash or get 0% loans, invest it, come out head. Drive that new car from 0 miles to 275,000 mi, junk it, have predictable (not chaotic) expenses. And every part of their life is like that. I am trying to see where my approach is wrong and where I’m falling short.

Just trying to get a feel if my spending is too high or if my income is too low. I recall skibum609 mentioned this monthly expenses are $2200/mo and he skis, clubs, golfs, gambles, and drives a $35K Subaru WRX Sit (or talks bout them, maybe he drives junkers). If he can do all of that of $2200, I should be able to live on half that. Right?

@Cashman1234 said: “You might be your own enemy - as you don’t seem to see the urgency in the need for disciplined saving/investment. “

How so? I think I’m pretty worried about it. I drive a cheap hatchback and a beater truck. I think I bought a cheap house. I keep the heat on 66*F and the AC on 78*F, and use them only when I half to. I don’t travel. I don’t go to strip clubs since Sep 2016. I used a cheap phone plan. No cable TV. No eating out at restaurants. I forfeit vacation days. I buy my shirts and some clothes at goodwill. I try to buy durable instead of cheap. I try not to go to the doctor. I use $10/mo planet fitness. No kids/figure I can’t afford them.

So I’m trying to figure out what I’m doing wrong.

@Cashman1234, I get paid $1748 every two weeks. If that were your pay, how would you divide it up? How much would you automatically save/invest? Serious question. I am very curious because I realize what I’m doing is not going to ever let me retire. how far out of whack is my budget?

Yes, talking about take out food as a money sink, the Robin and Dominques program deals with exactly these sorts of issues.

SJG

Dominic,

Some of these guys are in the construction trade, which is lucrative. Others are in some kind of sales, which can also be lucrative.

Don't beat yourself up by comparing your self to any other people.

Worth as a human being and adult status do not depend upon compliance with any of these promoted societal norms.

SJG

Believe me if I were to start over I’d choose UPS. They’re one of the last remaining stronghold union formed with Teamsters, and in 20 years they’ll give you a pension. Couple that with social security you’ll be all right in retirement, just not rich. The pay is good so the opportunity to save is more, yet the trade off is you can physically work your ass off around holiday time. Great benefits with Teamsters Union.

If u don’t get paid more then you’re over complicating your situation. Don’t do a budget, do a spending plan. Get the company match in your 401k and do no more. Anything more you can afford to save should go into a Roth IRA for a maximium of $5,500/yr. These are your first steps to accomplish, anything else is a fools errand until you complete the afford mentioned tips. After you’ve accomplished that then come back and talk to me.

ROTH contributions can always be withdrawn for any reason which makes it a good tool for retirement and emergency. The earnings must stay until 59 and 1/2. Other than making sure you have enough life insurance with your employer and making sure your disability premiums are after tax contributions, you should have a pretty good road map to get started on being fiscally responsible over the year 2018. If you make more money, you can start to do higher level planning.

"turning 40, I figured I finally needed to do some ADULTING I’ve been putting off for 10 years+"

If you’re turning 40 I think you have been putting off "ADULTING" for 20 years+ not 10.

It is going to take some serious, and painful, changes to get caught up. I know that the changes I had to make about 6 years ago when I started at my current employer were painful for a while. Luckily I was about to turn 30 instead of 40 so I had extra time to work with.

The first thing I did was meet with a Fidelity retirement advisor since that is who handles my employer's 401k program. The first thing she advised was what you already said: imediately start contributing enough to get your company's highest match to stop giving away free money. In my case my company matches $ for $ up to 5% so that is what I started with.

Next came eliminating credit card debt so that I stopped wastijg money on paying interest. That started with ceasing any new charges on the cards. My advisor suggested the snowball effect of paying the minimum due on each card with the exception of putting any free money each paycheck into paying off the card with the lowest balance until it is payed off and move to the next lowest until they are all paid off. Her twist on the snowball method was that every time I paid off a card I increased my 401k contribution level by 1% to help my retirement savings.

No new charges were permitted until all of the cards were paid off. This combined with the fact that I had cut all expenses to a minimum allowed me to pay off 7 credit cards (@$10k) in 3 years. It also meant that I was contributing 12% (17% including matching funds) of my income to my 401k. These extra contributions help catch up for the previous 10 years where I hadn't been saving for retirement.

I also started taking advantage of my company's employee stock purchase program that allows us to buy company stock at a 15% discount. Every year I increase my espp amount by half of whatever percentage raise I get. Currently I am up to 8% of my income going into my espp.

While this plan worked great for me, I suggest you get with a financial advisor and your wife and work out a plan immediately. Between the three of you, you should be able to work out a plan that meets everyone's expectations.

You need to plan ahead for nights when she doesn’t feel like cooking. I freeze chili, shredded meat, beans, etc. when I have time to cook, and the kids microwave them to make stuff. My ex and I used to make stuff like tamales, homemade sausage, and gnocchi together, so that we had frozen convenient food. It was kinda fun and it saved a lot of money. Also, you can always pick up a $5.00 pizza, or stop by the grocery store and grab a lasagna tray, instead of more expensive takeout options.

Also, investing must not be enough of an incentive for you to save. If you aren’t connecting the short term sacrifices w your long term goals enough to make it easy, change your goals. If buying your wife something nice is what motivates you, allow yourself a percentage of last month’s savings to spend on her. Take her on one awesome date per month, or save up for some special gift.

^^^^ Yes, saving money cannot be the purpose of life.

SJG

@whodey Great job you’ll be very well situated by the time your 50!which is a great feeling to have you should be proud of yourself.

@ twentyfive, thanks it is a great feeling. The best feeling was during my last phone conversation with my advisor and she suggested dropping my anticipated retirement age from 65 to 60 and even suggested that I may be able to lower it even more in the coming years.

If I could just eliminate my "entertainment" budget I could probably retire by 50, but what is the point of retirement (or life) without entertainment.

It’s a little confusing at first

https://vimeo.com/41152287

One of the benefits of running your own business(es) is a better alignment of paying activities and playing and education activities.

Three Boxes Of Life
https://www.amazon.com/Three-Boxes-Life-…

SJG

Dom,

Open a 401K. I had a ton in there when I retired (at 55) the first time, bought a business then sold it. Used a lot of 401K to survive, and that cost a lot in penalties and taxes. Buying trucks and bikes didn't help either. Almost pissed it all away. Went back to work. Worked 9 years and built the 401K up a bit. I was taking my first retirement pension per month. Retired again at 66 and took a lump sum retirement. Used a part of that to pay off what was left of my mortgage just to save $8K a year in insurance. Took the rest of the lump sum and let my financial guy invest it. It's gone bonkers in the last year. I wonder why? We live just fine on my SS. When I get my SS monthly I put 1/12 of major yearly expenses in an account. Money always there to pay the major bills. One problem can arise and I already learned my lesson, stick with the plan and don't spend crazy!

Many people are working in occupations such that they don't really have much they could save. This does not make them wrong or less than 'adults'.

The Vicki Robin and Joe Dominques book deals with all these issues.

SJG

Is that the name of that new Latina at Stir Crazy, Clubber ?? Spend crazy, great name !! She and you should get along well. :)

Dominic - my plan would be to put as high a percentage of my biweekly salary into a 401k as I could handle. If it’s painful - it’s ok. It’s important. If you can swing 16% - that would be a start.

I’m not trying to be a dick. But it’s a trade off - as it might hurt now - but it should make things easier in 20-30 years. Folks don’t see the benefit of long term investing because it’s benefits are too far in the future to seem tangible.

When my parents grew up, corporations were supposed to provide for their employees, and the government was supposed to help too. My generation has come of age knowing that we provide for ourselves. However, a large percentage has neglected saving.

It’s not fun, it makes you feel like you are taking home even less income, and that kinda sucks. But it will help over a long period of time.

One thing I've done for the past 2 months was to set a strict grocery budget. Each week when I go to the grocery store, I set my limit at $50. In order to stay within my budget, I do find myself spending more time pre-planning my trips to the grocery store, and looking at ads to see what specials they are running. For the past 2+ years or so, I have developed some discipline and I eat a fairly healthy diet. I will indulge in some junk food on weekends so I don't feel deprived, but for the most part I eat cleanly.

Obviously, not everyone will be able to budget down to $50/wk on groceries, especially if you also have a spouse and/or children to feed. However, the point is, if you make simple changes such as prepare all your meals at home, buy the store brand over the nationally recognized brand, and buy things when they are on sale, you can save quite a bit of money.

I retired 15 years ago. I had about $80,000 in a 403B account and an annual pension of about $60,000. My wife retired at the same time and she has a pension of $18,000. At age 67 I took my SS of $340/ month ( reduced by 75% by the governmental pension offset). After retirement I took a consulting gig at $500/day for 100 days per year ( about 1/2 time).
My wife & I had both gotten new cars every 2 or 3 years. We have 2 daughters and spent about $250,000 on their college education. Now my wife's in a nursing home but I bought long term care insurance for her about 25 years ago and while that'll last about 3 years ($306,000 in benefits) I still have to pay almost $1300 a month for her care. We put our house into an irrevocable trust 9 years ago when she was diagnosed with Alzheimer's and I've got a little over $200,000 equity in my house ( value of $425,000, mortgage of $211,000).
I blew the 403B and much of my consultant's earnings on my ATF & strip clubbing so I live check to check now.
My point is that if I had it to do over we should have let our cars get older so that we didn't always have 2 car payments, we should have saved more. But we did travel with our kids on trips they still talk about today - National Parks, Mexican beaches, Caribbean islands. etc. And none of us know how long we'll live. It's a lot more fun living in your 30's & 40's than in your 70's & 80's.
So I'm an advocate of "Eat, drink, & make merry...". Fuck the future - go to strip clubs, fuck every stripper who'll let you, and have a ball. You might get run over by a bus tomorrow.

^^^^ there's a fine line between what Gawker is saying and what Dom wants to do. It's our job (ourselves) to figure out where that fine line is.

Dominic, you mentioned slanging UPS boxes. I know that's not something you want to do, but getting your foot in the door and becoming a driver? It would likely be more than you're earning now. Of course, it's probably going to be a more stressful job and more hours but those guys make great money for little education background and it's an industry that 'gasp' doesn't seem to be dying at the moment.

There's just too much to read here. I'll have to come back and check it out tomorrow when I have more time. But let me make a few quick suggestions.

The first step is to find a decent savings account. Get rid of the accounts at your local brick-and-mortar bank: their rates are low and their fees are high. Try an online savings or money market account instead. Personally, I like Synchrony Bank and Live Oak Bank right now.

Next, for investments, obviously try to max out your allowable 401k and IRA contributions if you're able to do so without running into extra financial difficulty. In your IRA or taxable accounts, I recommend not picking stocks yourself unless you absolutely love stock picking and you have lots of spare time to devote to it. Either have a professional pick the stocks for you or just invest in index ETFs yourself. That's just my opinion. I'm sure lots of people will disagree with me.

Third, coupons are your friend. Try Coupons.com and print your own. Make sure you set your printer to "ink save mode" and use only black ink (it's cheaper than colored ink) - don't worry, the stores will still accept a black-and-white coupon.

Fourth, either join a wholesale club or do bulk shopping online. I think Costco, BJ's, and Sam's Club are all excellent values - generally even better than Target and Wal-Mart. BJ's will even let you use manufacturer's coupons. There are some online wholesale clubs but I like to see my groceries in person before I buy them.

Fifth, be careful about debt. There have been times in my life when I spent every single dollar I had... but I never went into debt because I was always afraid of it.

I think the Costco savings are dependent upon your family situation. If you're married with kids I think it's a good deal. Not nearly the return for a single guy.

I've been in the process of cutting expenses since last year.
Eating out is a big one of you haven't done that yet.
I have some relatives that suck at saving money and keep running out.
The way I like to buy groceries and cook meals is to cook a lot o one day, freeze it in freezer bags and defrost in microwave whenever I want a hamburger for instance.
I will buy a couple or more packs of hamburger meat and sometimes make some into just meat to freeze to use with spaghetti or to make into sloppy joe and use a bunch of the meat to put into hamburger patties. I have some cookie sheets , pit foil on top with edges folded up to catch the grease and spread try patties out and put in the oven at 350 degrees.

Take out and turn after about 10 minutes and brown on top, cook another 10 to 12 minutes and done on the inside of not too thick. Then either eat one or two and freeze the rest to eat whenever I want without cooking for the next week or two. One day of cooking, simple defrost and fix other days. An easy way for baked potatoes is to either buy a bag of potatoes, poke holes in it with a fork, microwave as spliced by microwave or slightly longer if thick, the eat baked potato. Cheaper, buy potato flakes, microwave bowl of water, mix in flakes and a little milk, ready to serve. Save rest of flakes sealed up for later. One box of potato flakes makes a lot of potatoes and you don't have to worry about bad potatoes. I did buy some better pyrolex coking bowls if I spelled that correct.

I also bought a razor hair cut kit and have a hand mirror so I cut my own hair. I know some tricks to eat and live cheap but have t really changed that much. If you really want cheaper instead of hamburger buns with sloppy joes, you can use two pieces of toast. It actually can taste better in my opinion but hamburger buns are easier. It's probably less calories using toast than a bun. I also do the same thing with hot dogs. I use a piece of slightly toasted bread folded up for a hot dog bun or two of them if two hot dogs. I actually like that better than hot dog buns. Helps cut back daily calories too if you eat turkey dogs or hot dogs a lot.

And some strippers thought I was just cheap in the strip clubs. I was splurging big time when I used to go to clubs. $3.50 to $5 before tip for a single beer? Really? Tipping $2 each time a stripper went on stage for dancing in front of me for 10 to 30 seconds, wish I could make that kind of money per second. Granted a lot of guys were not tipping at all.

Was just saying I like to cook a lot on one day whether that is sloppy joe, hamburger patties, etc, then eat leftovers the rest of the week to avoid doing lots of cooking and eating out. It's also faster than eating out or cooking on other nights. I don't call defrosting patties as cooking. I mix they meals up during the week. If I get tired of leftovers, I still pick up some fast food but like making my own shakes with real ice cream and some milk or root beer. Tastes a lot better than any fast food shake and it's a lot cheaper making my own. In fact microwaving a raw potato makes for a much better potato than I would get at say Wendy's plus much cheaper. Better food, less cost. It's the way to save. I've just had a problem with several potatoes having bad spots. You can't tell it from the outside.

I'm currently paying about 106 a month for satellite with over 250 channels as compared to another relative that had something comparable to basic cable for about 100 a month. Negotiate monthly expenses. Compare plans. Monthly expenses and charges are where people lose out. Eating out several times a month you really lose out. If you ask yourself, do you want to work your current job another year before you can retire by ordering shakes or making them at home and it makes you think more about routine expenses.

I know I'm still spending a lot on entertainment but my internet sucks in my area and Netflix would lag I believe. I do know someone who avoided cable and satellite and had an antennae in his attic for years never paying a cent for tv entertainment service. My selection of shows would suck in my opinion with that option. Save more, retire early if you can. Just ask yourself, are you willing to work extra months or years to keep buying whatever. I splurged already in my 20's and 30's on strip clubs. I'm cutting back with minimal effect on my lifestyle other than not visiting strip clubs. I'm eating better food and saving time and money. I'm also looking for a new job. I don't really want to travel over 50% of the time or travel overseas for work or be on call 24 hours a day and weekends. I'm not doing that now but if I have no choice I might consider it. I really don't want to routinely travel overseas. I'm ok with occasional flights here in the US. Certain jobs have different job requirements.

Dominic, great discussion but definitely PM me if you want an easy plan to follow. Lots of times I tell my clients to not listen to others who aren’t professionals, because they just want you to see how smart they appear. If you’re serious, follow my aforementioned steps and talk to a real certified professional with experience who knows what he is talking about, like me. All free and objective.

“Be merry and fuck the future” is probably the most depressing suggestion ever given, but you knew that from reading all of his discussion topics.

Just watched a forum from Davos where someone mentioned that 70% of money from individual investors in France, Germany, and China is kept in non-interest bearing bank accounts. They don’t have the investment culture of 401K and mutual funds that we have in the US. How does anyone reach financial independence that way ?

Just read thru the whole thread, great advice guys...and I suddenly have a craving for a sloppy joe

D77: Boy, it sure sucks being 40 going on 25. It'll suck even more being 50 or 60 going on 25. Ignore those posters who chide you for being too late to think about financial growing up. You need to focus on things that you can do to increase income, and cut expenses.

Through all this white noise, I haven't spotted anything about your housing expenses, or if you're a renter or homeowner. I'll leave with some useful targets to shoot for.
1) If renting, don't spend more than 25% of your income on rent
2) If homeowner, don't let your mortgage payment, car payments, (or any other regular fixed monhly credit payment) exceed 36% of income.
For your circumstances, those magic numbers are ~ $1250/mo for rental, $1800/mo for mortgage/car payments/other fixed credit payments. Shoot for those goals, striving to keep as far below those figures as possible. That might entail some downsizing/downscaling. Best wishes.

Dominic77 is married, too. We haven’t seen any of the data on what his wife contributes so that would askew your advice above “minnow”. It’s why I always caution
People to meet with someone qualified to give advice. By the way your input is great general advice that our readers should follow.

@minnow,
Happy to see you responding. Chiding, yes. I'm a fighter at heart so I don't plan on giving up until it's time for a dirt nap. Round 4 bell rang and I realized that despite having a strong first two rounds, I'm getting pummeled (p0wned, for the youngsters) for the last two, so I need to adjust.

+ 1.) I own. Mortgage (with PMI, taxes, insurance) is 831-ish a month, but it changes as escrow changes. My credit is 530/540, so insurance is brutal, because all of the actuary tables are based on it these days. So that is roughly a quarter of my 4-week pay.

+ 2.) car payment is a 48 month loan with 13 months into it. It is 296/mo. It's 7% interest. The beater truck I own outright. 195K miles. The hotrod 1990 Mustang GT 5.0 5spd, I own outright, 94K miles. It doesn't run, but it's in OK shape (never driven in salt).

I have no other credit payments, no CCs since 2011, no AMEX since 2014. I have really poor credit, so I'm cash only.

I guess that's not true. I have a $470 credit owed with the bank for overdraft protection (out of $500). They auto-deduct $20 each month, then turn around ding me $18 in fees. I really should pay that off.

@Minnow, didn't expect you to respond after the watch thread a few years back on the pink site. Glad to see you didn't hold that against me. ;)

Let me try to respond to everyone else in order.

But first ..

@Meat72, yes, very interested. I know the advisor (free, too) at the brick and mortar bank was very surprised that I didn't like 4 or 5 figures of credit card debt. He said that was unusual for clients like me. "Most guys in your situation have credit card debt on top of it." He actually asked what "my secret was" to prevent my wife from taking out credit card and store credit cards across town. There is no secret.

She doesn't work, not anymore. It didn't really work out so she's a homemaker. I think as far as income, energy to generate income, transporation, annoyance factor, etc. I'm worth 4X per hour or more on the open market. so it make sense to pour the energy into me, even it it means longer weeks. Or if it means changing careers, changing fields, schooling, or overseas travel, relocation, etc. I think it makes sense to keep her as a homemaker. Or as my executive assistant to book client hours for me.

Let me put it this way. Typical pig managers or business owners hire 2 types of women. Matriarchal ones. Or (subliminal) potential sexual partners aka women to stroke either egos. And guess what happens when she fails to get in line and stroke his ego? And he pushes. Not worth the emotional toll. I tried to box. Those guys are too well connected.

She could do some temp office work. That way she could make a little extra and not get too deep into the work envirmont, and take breaks. Some temp jobs are even for a day or two. I once made 10.00 an hour to take cash for ppl entering an even. It was a one day job, and an easy 70.00. Dental hygienists are often independent contractors and work on call in, or temp, basis. There’s also insurance billing, which can be done from home. If she is skilled in admin work, it would be a better fit.

vm,

I've not had a CF since Catalina, who you met. Once she got her second boob job and looked deformed, I cut her loose. Luckily I knew she had gotten rid of her Lexus and she had a SLK. Was easy to miss her. Of course now, I don't get out much. Hoping to start hitting Showgirls with some frequency. Unfortunately 2 out of the last 4 or 5 times I was there, another old time way past her prime fave was there. I would think over the last year she'd be history. I'll see.

Dominic77,

The way capitalism works is by making people feel that they are not adequate. It makes them feel that they already have some kind of a cosmic debt. This could never even exist without the religious idea of Original Sin.

And what neoliberalism is, amounts to making this kind of cosmic debt all that life is about. I drives people's psyches, and our politics.

So you just have to find ways to see thru it.

When you disclose your personal affairs on an open forum like this, you are just inviting people to mess with your head.

If you want a career change, this is the book I recommend to everyone. It certainly changed my life:
https://www.amazon.com/What-Color-Your-P…

But very few people have the level headedness to do what the book actually says.

You don't need the current edition either, any edition will do. Most libraries have it. I at one time obtained lots of old editions to see how the author's thinking had evolved.

Another book as an intro:
https://www.amazon.com/Find-Your-Mission…

There is only one author I have ever found that goes even deeper:

https://www.amazon.com/Zen-Art-Making-Li…

And this also makes for a good intro:
https://www.amazon.com/How-Find-Work-You…

And of course in the organization I am building, everyone will always have these kinds of issues solved for them.

SJG

i retired from a teamster job. my ex gets literally all of my teamster pension. and i lost my part time job. so now... social security.

i commend you for thinking about your future. good luck sir.

@Twentyfive & @Cashman1234

RE: social security.

Right! I see the $147 come out every 2 weeks. I think to myself. Wow, that’s GENEROUS OF ME to fund other retirees. Now imagine if I also took out $147 every check and saved in 401k/IRA for me? Apparently this SS ($147) and Medicare ($34) deduction have been coming out for awhile now, and meanwhile I have saved since 2008. So I need to do the same. Save $$ for me, too.

@skibum609

Haha. I’m stuck on Plan B. I let Plan A fall by the wayside in 2008. Insurance (all kinds) went up, cc debt exploded, wife lost her job, bunch of things at at once, so we burned the furniture at 30yo for the preverbal night of warmth. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Meant to get back the horse asap but one month turned into 9 years. I still have those hollow points, just in case. ;)

@san_jose_guy

Gambling? I disagree. For indexed and diversified investing, it seems like the average is 9% year. over 20 years.

One point I WILL give you credit for, is the building your own company. I think I might be one of the few people where that advise might actually make sense. Supposedly I’m really smart. So I might be the less than 4% of people where my own organization might make sense.

CEOs are the ultimate rainmaker, right? No limit to compensation when I’m the boss.

As for self-worth, and comparing myself to others. I partly agree and partly disagree. Let me explain:
1. Keeping up with the Jones’ or comparing oneself to the Jones’ is a bad idea. Agree.
2. It’s my mathematics background, but I’m just trying to REDUCE THIS TO A PREVIOUSLY SOLVED PROBLEM. We do that in formal math proofs. We also do that in statistical and thermal physics. I’m figuring this is a known problem with popular, proven solutions. My problem can’t be a new problem. Others must have been here before.

In some cases, I have uncovered some frauds. Some families live for the payment live on the edge of poverty for keep up with the Jones’. Not me. Still others, style themselves with the veneers of self-reliance, self discipline for saving, conservative ethos, yet hide the fact they receive annual year-end gifts of $10,000 .. $28,000 or more from their (grand)parents. They sell rugged bootstrapping. But they’re frauds.

I found a lot of that in financial advise on forums with moms .. like dc-moms, weddingbee, city-data, etc., when I PMed for details. lol.

@ twenty-five

RE: UPS

That’s kind of what I was thinking. I’m thinking I have 4-5 hours extra each day. Lose it or lose it, right! I might as well sling boxes. It’s the same logic rick uses to sell OTC to the dancers. Just extend your work day by one more hour to make a little more cash. It’s time that would be otherwise unused or lost anyway.

@cashman1234

RE: UPS

I didn’t think of the networking opportunities that might exist. I mean, duh, UPS and FedEx manage some of the largest wireless networks. If not computer programming, there would be IT work or analysis work. Keep tossing the resume up the chain. I hadn’t thought of it that way.

@san_jose_guy

no debts, except for $470 owned to the bank and 35 more months of car payments. I’m not counting the mortgage.

My problem with organizations is, the guys or the guys at the top get to KEEP MOST in exchange for constant cash flow or constant food flow to everyone else.

I’d rather be the guy at the top forgoing eating every now and then. You get more money. You get loyal people. All in exchange for eating them or forgoing yours (for now or on occasion) then you get to eat (much more) later. I learned this is Florida Public Schools when I was there some 30 years ago.

@meat72

You you even consider UPS or as a laborer with a STEM degree or degrees? Just curious if that changes your answer.

@whodey

Well, the last 10 was the worst. From 18 to 30, I did contribute to 401k. From like 8 yo to 16yo, I used to have savings account. In the ‘80s, I used to invest. The local bank tellers helped me. I generally had 1-4K in the checking account, without even trying hard. Just a bunch of shit happened all at once. Then a repeat shortly after. I figured I had time to get on track. I was only 25 or only 30. I used to have 1-2 roommates back then. That helped. Maybe living alone without extended family or without roommates is the problem?

I was pretty responsible. I just was too kumbaya about the whole thing. I just got on auto pilot at 30 figuring the advise of I WOULD GROW INTO MY SALARY would bear fruit. I think the advise was dumb or at best, in complete. Employers just don’t give you raises and bonuses for no reason.

My wife doesn’t handle any of the finances nor is she involved. I earn all of the money. I manage all of the accounts. I’m the only one with the passwords or with access. So it would just be the advisor and me. All she wants to know is what I expect her to do. We’re sort of a traditional couple and traditional people, with traditional gender roles. If that helps.

@Bj99

I agree that I need to plan ahead for nights she doesn’t feel like cooking. That is the least I can do. She says, “Until you’re making shailynn or rickdugan money …” lol. But even then, I would still help out.

Well, about connecting the short term and long term goals. I agree. Early on, she would ask, “how long? How long do we have to live like this, you know, until you get your real job.” I didn’t have a good answer. Me, myself, I can live like a monk. I grew up poor. Seeing her ask earnestly was hard. It’s why I didn’t have kids. I didn’t want to be confronted with hungry little eyes yearning for more that I could not fully feed or fully nurture.

She wants an awesome date each week, that’s why we get takeout. I really need to reset her (and mine!) expectations to once a month. That’s 1/4 as much and more importantly DOABLE! :)

The answer to how long? 69, hun. Maybe 67. But 69 when we retire. That’s when I get my real job. anything earlier with just be grit, perseverance, and luck.

@san_jose_guy

I get that saving shouldn’t be the sole purpose of life. I grew up seeing a perversion of saving from my grandmother, who lived through the Great Depression. I used to be like her, very Scrooge McDuck. People used to joke, there’s Dominic, he’s always got money to lend you. Mr. Junkbonds over there. And it was true. It used to be. But I also USED TO live like a monk.

But, when I don’t even have $400 today to cover an emergency. Something is out of whack. That’s where I am.

@twentyfive

It sounds like you’re giving whodey high-fives for something that isn’t too hard for someone to obtain. I just need to contribute like him and get caught up for the 20 years whereas he only had 10 years missing. 12% plus 5% match, plus another 8% … those all sound like doable numbers, once I get caught up for the missing 20 years. Unless wholly makes many multiples of my $60K income, in which case, I am really screwed.

@mark94

LMAO. The skit was awesome. I do try to live that.

1. Wife asked for chipotle. Said no.
2. Wife asked to couple things online. 2 tops and pants. No. African mask decoration. No. 2 tops and a shirt from a different place. No.
3. Wife asked for things we need at home. Drapes for living room. No. Blinds for dining room. No. fix broken window. No. Fixed the tape I put on it 5 years ago. Still no. New flooring to replace the ratty floor in the dining room. No. Even if we do that labor. No. Replace tore up carpet int he hallway. No.
4. Asked if she can get the pants if I would go to the strip club (to make it 50:50 fair). No. I don’t need to see strippers that badly.
5. Asked for phone since hers keep crashing. No.

And that was just yesterday.

9. Asked for cheese so we can make homemade pizza tomorrow (today). Yes. Correct answer :)

So we stayed up and made crust from scratch together. It’s been rising overnight. It was fun.

@mark94, I’m sort of at the part where I check the checking account balance. See there’s some money in there, do a quick calculation of , will this bounce if aI take it out today?? Like right now, there’s $480 in there. 2 years ago, I would have been like, yep, take out $240, hit the strip club, spend $140, keep the $100 just in case, then spend $50 on something (gift) for my wife.

So I’m on book #2 of that skit. I just need book #3. Do you have that one? lol.

@Clubber

Thanks. Am I right? It’s just the thing we’re told to do. Out of work? Emergency? Need money? Raid the 401k. Dumb, Dumb. I was there too. So many people do it. Why? To pay a car payment on a car I didn’t even like and a car I don’t even have anymore! Dumb. To pay other bills? Also dumb.

The only downside with my house if the loan was reset for another 30 years. Current payoff is 2043. I wish I could have swung a 15 year. It would have been done in 18 months from now (2019). I’d like to drop the PMI and insurance, too. I’m paying a fortune in insurance since my credit is bad and risk is tied to credit scores and history these days. fuckers.

I like to live simply, too, and not spend crazy. Maybe we aren’t so different from each other after all??!?

@san_jose_guy

It’s not that we work in occupations we don’t want. Some of the most retarded advise out there is do what you love and the money will follow.

I understand we have liberty to do what we want and not be forced into jobs like Soviet Russia.

I see lots of the self-made ethos that I work hard so I can get paid. OK Rush. OK Dave Ramsey. What do you think I’m trying to do? Maybe they should define what working hard is. I think it’s what I’m doing but clearly I’m approaching it wrong.

SJG, I still value the freedom to be left alone, keep your property, and get ahead. I don’t think we should give out participation medals nor reward people for doing useless work.

@taxi_driver

I love the handle. :) Fitting.

1) I like this. Every dollar. Robbed. It’s monk-like. Feels good.
2) Trust me. I’m not a clubber. I’ve had like 31 visits between 1995 and 2018 and lifetime spend is $4000. Lifetime. I haven’t step foot in the club since Sept 2016. My clubbing is very particular and for a single focused reason: to recharge me as a red-blood man. A visit for me casts a Plus+10 attribute to my bloodlust. Take-care-of-business, so you-can-get-back-to-business sort of thing. Like a hunting or fishing trip might do for someone. It’s squarely a hit-the-ground-running as soon as I leave the club.
3) We are on the same page. Ups and downs in the market are ok. Ice water in my veins.
4) No children. I felt I couldn’t afford them. I didn’t give the wife a say but she’s on board. I get what you are saying. I feel, too, like I should be able to life comparably with what I earn, too. That’s why I’m confused. Push came to shove I would just keep the truck and sell the other two. It is nice having a backup vehicle but I can also rent a car $25/day, too. It helps with the marathon-cannonballing-repairs that take all weekend (or two). Otherwise when it breaks, it’s stop immediate, order part, pray you have money order parts, cannonball the repairs all weekend. If you have two cars, you aren’t in such a hurry to fix it. What do you guys do when it breaks? Rent a car? Car pool? Work from home? Please don’t say: I take it to the mechanic. Who has money for that? Serious question.
I am nearing the point where I’m completely dry. bled out. Hence this post. The pathetic part is I’m not even a SC customer.
5) I take the approach that the $5250 tuition reimbursement is free money, essentially my bonus each year, so I use it. I need to also do the same with the 401k match. Agree. You know the scene rom goodfellas? The one with Ray Liotta, “don’t touch my girl?” That’s my girl. She’d hide the gun EVERY TIME WITHOUT FAIL and be arosed each time. That’s what’s really important to her. She will follow my lead and do what I ask of her. https://youtu.be/gCN6fFPlXF8?t=1m29s
6) I like the criterion “ones that don’t improve [my] standard of living.” That helps with the decision-tree (I’m such a CS nerd).

Thanks, taxi_driver.

@cashman1234

I asked for an amount. Is 16% ($279) what you would do. Yes/No? As much as one can handle is not an answer. Would you do $279 and personally think that is enough. You’d retire on that? If not, then that’s not the minimum. What is the real minimum? That’s what I asked. I am being dick. :)

I have no love for corporations. The broken tacit promises to families from corps largely following GE & IBM’s lead destroyed many a family and marriages and kids lives. Evil. no words. So I pretty much think I’m on my own. There is no more loyalty.

I guess I was stupid and just wanted to spoil my wife and some comforts of my own. Dumb, Dumb.

Thanks!

@s275ironman

Does your grocery budget include non-food items, often purchased from grocery stores? Like toilet paper, soaps, trash bags, aluminum foil, etc? Or is that strictly food.

I buy groceries from a local discount grocer called Marcs. Its a regional discount grocer. The prices are cheaper than Same clubs, were I used to shop 10 years ago.

I too use discipline to eat clean and prepare our own scratch-made meals. Almost everything we do is scratch and clean. We buy lots of chicken thighs (cheapest cut of the bird) and ground turkey (about 1/3 of the cost of ground beef). I eat bean but my wife hates them. She’s getting used to them. We eat like zero processed foods.

I do drink alcohol and have a mind dependency on it. I’m trying to wean myself off. Especially now that @taxi_driver has me in the mindset that every dollar spent is a dollar robbed from y future retired self.

@gawker

If anything your account, thank you for sharing BTW, show me that with enough income and enough savings but more importantly with enough income, one can BRUTE FORCE oneself through some bad decisions and still come out okay.

I’m a sinner and far from perfect. So I won’t cast any stones. Never bought a new car. Never had trips like that, not even growing up. My wife and never been on an airplane not even once in her life. I do hope someday to experience some of these things. Hopefully I don’t take dirt nap before she and I can do those.

I do agree about the struck my a meteor scenario. That’s why I kiss her goodbye each morning when she still sleeps. Time is fleeting. The problem is I can’t do any of the drink and be merry stuff because my modest salary doesn’t really allow it with my spending levels. That’s why I’m here. There’s more to live than just hot, passionate sex. I already have that. I just need the other stuff, lol.

@shailynn

I would feel that with 2 STEM degrees I would be a failure to do a job like that. When I worked for UPS back in 1999-2000 I recalled that it took 7 years, give or take, before you could be eligible to be a driver. The guys I loaded for made $78K back then as drivers. It’s probably more now. That’s more money what I’ve ever earned with the exception of 2010.

I’m hungry to hustle and get paid. Life is too short for me to struggle financially. I’m too smart to be broke . It wasn’t supposed to be like this.

@taxi_driver

I’m the 2-3 times a year guy. I buy the drink minimum, buy 1-3 dances, and stage tip mostly. I’ve talked with the dancers. Most customers here spend $60-100 total a visit, and that’s it. That’s what 90% of the customers do. So that’s what I try to do. Weekly? I wouldn’t even go monthly. Not if I was rich. I go for the scenery and am 100% happy with the scenery. :)

@BurlingtonHoFactory

Good tip for the online banks. I will look into those. FYI: I got my first 1099-INT this year in more than 10 years. I earned $10.12 in interest. WOOHOO. I’m capitalist. I’m middle class. I’m bourgeois.

The trick is to save without running the checking account into overdraft. I need to get the feel good expenses under control, kiss the wife, and tell her we’re disciplined financial monks again. I think the trick is to stop watching advertising which is nothing more than subliminal brainwashing.

My printer is a B&W laser printer (it also scans). No color in this house, but I get what you are saying about the coupons.

@BHF, do you even buy your cars without credit? Are you a cash buyer for those? Or are you a hipster on a unicycle? I pegged you for a cash-car-buyer, too.

@79terrier

Right, Costco and Same club don’t seem work well for me. The local regional discount grocer “MARCS” works out to be cheaper. But that’s regional for OH, MI, and PA I think.

@orionsmith

I love the handle. I’m an astronomer, too. Orion is pretty visible in the evening sky this time of year.

I love the suggestions, too. Except for the hair. Everytime I try buzz cutting my own hair, I always screw up the back and end up looking like a cancer survivor. (unhealthy, patchy, uneven). I can cut my wife’s hair, and I do. Big time savings there. I should try to cut mine again. It’s so hard to keep it even in the back. Maybe it’s my dented skull? I dunno.

I like the idea for the homemade treats and shakes. I feel like food and sugar is the only socially acceptable vice poor people can have. Drink, no. Smoke, no. Drugs, no. Strippers, no. But someone eating, that is still okay. Society is strange. But food does taste good.

DONT TELL BILL OREILY I HAVE A REFRIGERATOR PSST.

Entertainment expenses are a balance. What do they expect as to do? Sit at home and read the Bible. The Bible. That’s all you get. No books. No TV. Just the Bible.

One thing the Bible does good is many followers of it (taken from Eastern religions, monks, etc) is the concept of the ascetic lifestyle. I get overriding sense from the posters here that the ascetic life is the way to go. Maybe the right wingers were right all along??????

@Bj99

She is skilled in office work. The trick is keep her from catty middle-aged women and horny male bosses with ego problems. She used to work in a county courthouse in high school and loves everything legal. She would need to walk because she doesn’t like to drive. Like she has a nervous breakdown driving. The city bus is one option.

@san_jose_guy

I understand the risks of the open forum. I think the upsides are worth any potential downsides.

Sort of city-data.com forums, who weren’t really helpful for someone like me. Tuscl has about the single highest concentration of millionaires and successful men anywhere on the internet. I’m continually amazed I don’t get band for not visiting strip clubs, for not writing reviews, and for not sharing intel.

City-data, in comparison are DINKs, with household incomes of 200K on the low end, to the moon on the high end, and the savings strategy is just spend, and transfer 10,000 a month into savings. Duh, it’s not hard. Easy peasy! Everyone there is vice president of something or another, and that’s just the wives. Very WASPy. It felt Dickensian and one comment to me was, “That’s kind of hard pal, it’s not every day we get to see how the other half struggles.” -same to you, pal.

@justme62

Luckily I don’t think mine will ever clean me out. She’s more like a goodfellas wife. I don’t think she’d dare go anywhere. I commend you. All of your posts a chin-up. Rock on, sir. https://youtu.be/gCN6fFPlXF8?t=1m29s

THANKS ALL!

^^^OMG, it took the whole thing. Bravo, founder.

Dominic, nobody has ever looked upon their parents fondly and noted that their best memories are of them at the office working hours to provide luxury items for their children. What your wife is doing is very admirable and live within that. Still get the maximum your employer will match in your 401k, and then divert funds into a ROTh IRA for an emergency fund/retirement fund just in case shit hits the fan and you need access to your contributions into the ROTH.

@meat72,
Imagine we're f2f. You can look me in the eye, shake my hand, I can tell you're a straight shooter. He makes 60,300. He's 40. You tell him to set aside this number, for retirement each check, this number will mean "he'll be alright." What's that number. Not the number you give to a stranger. But to that guy and you look him in the eye. What's the number?

?

Or is the pescetarian one (minnow) right, and I need to earn more money?

Give it to me straight.

Or is the legal one right, and I need hollow points.

Dominic77 wrote, "it seems like the average is 9% year. over 20 years. "

Yes, the most conservative kind of investing does usually perform as you say. But then sometimes it also does collapse. Mostly the gains are just caused by Reagan's gutting of progressive income tax, and from continued government deficit spending.

If you don't have the cash, then the talk about such is meaning less.

But if you do, your own ventures!

Can't make life be just about money, ever!

" Tuscl has about the single highest concentration of millionaires and successful men anywhere on the internet"

Many of these guys have benefited from social conditions which have given them an easy path to money. You can tell by their posts and attitudes that they have never had to deal with serious moral issues. Don't be taken in by them. Most of them really are just idiots.

SJG

I had some of those problems in the work force. Unattractive middle aged women are worse than strippers. I think there could be some promise in temp jobs. Everyone will be nice to her bc she will just be there for a few weeks. And she only has to accept jobs when she feels up to it.

Also, try talking to her ab medical coding. She can do it from home, and the classes aren’t very expensive. Since she already has office experience, it will be much easier for her to get jobs in it. If I went back to work, I’d try to get into office management and coding for dental. Pet sitting is also a nice side hustle for attractive women (bc ppl naturally assume attractive women and caring and trustworthy). There are companies she can go through for it.

^^^^ We still have a grossly excessive labor force, relative to the jobs that market forces will pay them to do. It has been like this for a long time, and it continues to get worse each day.

We need to change our economic system.

SJG

Dominic if I was honest with you and sitting f2f with you, I’d tell you you’re so ducked up mentally from the financial stress that you’re dealing with right now, that you can’t see the forest through the trees. You’re taking your whole approach to this analytically, and you’ve avoided the one thing you can control which is your behavior.

U asked how much that number is, I’ll tell that #. It’s more than what your doing now! Whatever you’re contributing now, do more no matter if it’s a trivial amount. If you get a promotion later or a raise, then just remember the behavior to increase and live the same means as you did before. Don’t spend that raise, invest it.

You got your head so far stuck up in your ass about finances that your looking for a white knight. There is no magical #, because that varies with each person so get the financial analysis out of your freaking head and start looking atgthis from a behavioral/critical thinking aspect. It’s not the how or what that makes people successful, it the why. Critical thinking explains the human element in your performance, take any step no matter how small in the right direction, and then the momentum of creating small
victories will turn into larger, more
Prosperous wins! Good luck.

I say he is looking in the wrong sort of a place. I would suggest the stacks in a public library.

SJG

Something's not adding up. Claiming you living paycheck to paycheck, but live pretty minimally at 60k/yr?

So that's I'm guessing approximately 3700 per month take home? Let's start with that w/e it is. What are your recurring expenses? I saw 2 big ones in mortgage and car at ~900 and ~300 w/ an unknown insurance other than it's "brutal" (numbers would help) how about gas, utilities, groceries, etc?? That accounts for 1200 out, so ~2500 left, where is it going??

You also speak of leakage and treating you and your wife once in a while. Is there a budget for that and how much are we talking here?? If not, budget it, so as you're not saying no and it's not on you but on the weekly budget (25-50 or w/e per week) and if she wants something tell her what's in the discretionary fund and how long she'll need to wait for it.

IMO there's not enough info or it's too scattered to see where most of your cash is going to really comment any further.

To get into this finely detailed budgeting the Joe Dominquez and Vicki Robin book is THE BEST. Read it and decide for yourself what you think of it.

FWIW, it would certainly make a married couple closer.

SJG

Dominic, that $50/wk is for just food alone.

It sounds like your grocery shopping is very similar to mine, as I buy a lot of those same foods as you do.

I eat like that too. I do eat a lot of beans tho. I cook them from scratch and feeeze them in 1 cup servings. Those big white Lima beans are really underrated. I also eat of frozen greens. This week I bought two small turkeys at ab .50 per lb. I’ll cook them and freeze the meat in individual servings. I hate to suggest buying anything when you are trying to save money, but my turbo blender saves me a lot bc the kids make smoothies, so I don’t buy ice creams, or fancy yogurt. I make a lot of smoothies for myself and frozen fruit is cheaper than fresh. I’m thinking of investing in an instant pot. Some of my customers love theirs, and I’m exciting ab cooking rice and beans faster, since my work days are long.

Voluntary Simplicity, Vicki Robin, New Road Map Foundation, Your Money Or Your Life
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t75bWH7H…

AND

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8lz13SW…

But the book is even better!

But Dominic, you need to do some reading and thinking, and decide what you want. Bad to let people put stuff on you, especially this 'saving and investing' stuff.

SJG

$10 a day per person is reasonable for food. i usually do less than half overall.

Obviously you've got to do your planning with your spouse.

SJG

^ I agree. Saving together can be really fun, if you make a game of it, and there’s a nice reward for it.

Whatever happens, you and your spouse are on the same team, facing the risks together, and enjoying the benefits together.

Regrettably this kind of partnership never did work out for me and my spouse. So finally I had to solve the problem in the Divorce Court.

SJG

@Dominic77,

- With an online savings account and the same amount of principle, you would probably have 10 to 100 times that amount of interest next year. No one is going to retire on the interest from an online savings account of course, but everyone needs to have some liquid savings so it might as well be the highest rate possible.

- I have bought exactly two cars in my life. Prior to those, I used my parent's cars when I was young. Both of my cars were bought new. I financed both of them - the first car I didn't have the cash to buy it outright at the time, but I used every extra dollar I could find to pay the loan down as fast as possible after I drove it off the lot. In other words, I stopped saving, I stopped clubbing, I stopped everything - every extra buck I had went towards the car loan until I had it down to zero. Then, after I had a car accident and totaled the first car, I bought the second one through financing, too. But the only reason I financed the second car at all was because the dealership was offering a credit toward the price of the car if I took a loan. The terms said nothing about how much I had to borrow, only that I had to keep the loan outstanding for a few months, so I only intended to finance a few thousand and pay the rest in cash upfront. But the finance manager at the dealership went ahead and processed paperwork for 100% financing without asking me and I was too lazy to demand that he rewrite the paperwork. Of course I paid the bulk of the principle off as soon as I received my first bill, but it still ended up costing me about $100 more in interest than I had planned to pay because of the size of the note. (Honestly, I think he did it just to get revenge on me for driving such a hard bargain on the price LOL.) Regardless, I always pay cash now unless there's some reason not to. If it's literally zero percent interest, with no strings attached, then I'll finance it. But there's really no such thing as no strings attached. There's always a catch, like losing a buyer's credit or something. Also, I always buy new cars (because I know from experience about the nasty shit people do in their cars, ahem, like nailing strippers in parking lots), and I always buy a high-end trim of a low-end mass-market car. I don't believe in diesel or hybrids - the savings in gas mileage doesn't justify the extra upfront cost; I just buy a 4-cylinder model instead. Unless I have an accident, I plan to keep my car for at least 10 years or until the repairs become too expensive to justify.

- Other than that, pussy is my only luxury. Up until last week, I was still using a tube television that my parents bought for me in 2002! I don't even own a smart tv or a blue-ray player, and I still get Netflix DVDs through the mail! That is, up until now: my mom's tube television from 1994 just died on her and I'm giving her my tv and shopping for my first smart tv this weekend. If I can't negotiate a better price at a local retailer then I'll just get it from Costco. Costco is offering a free extended warranty right now; I never pay for an extended warranty, but I'll take it if it's free.

I'm not sure if any of these comments are helpful, but I wish you lots of luck. Living frugally is difficult but doable. Once you've been doing it for a while, it's second-nature.

that car payment is a killer man. I bought my car new in 2007 and paid it off within a year. I could have paid cash but I wanted to keep a few thousand in the bank just in case. I want a new car now but I don't really need one and because of grad school I don't have the cash for a new one yet so instead of getting saddled with payments I don't want I will just wait a year or two. Never get stuck with a big car payment. I started working for a major mutual fund company out of college so I go use to maxing out the match on my 401k which is the best thing I ever did. I had to raid it a little bit due to having 2+ years with no income due to grad school but as soon as I got my next job I maxed that out again, and put as much as I can into a roth IRA. If things go well in a couple of years I will be able to make the max contribution of 16K i think into my 401k and get match. I think you just need to get use to not having as much money as you would like and then splurge once in a while.

monthly salary 3787.333333

rent/mortage 600
food 300
tracfone 10
electricity 60
personal care 30

left over per month 2787.333333

2787.33 invested every month in a diversified growth portfolio (e.g. 40% domestic equities, 30% foreign equities, 15% bonds, 5% gold, 5% bitcoin, 5% cash) will return, for example, about 7% annually on average. After exactly 20 years (240 months) of consistent investing, the balance will be approximately $1.4 million. Realistically it would probably be between $800,000 and $1.6 million, depending on how well the investment did in the earlier years.

Problem solved. That was easy. Whatchyoo guys talkin' bout?

Dominic - I’d put away the max allowed by the IRS in a 401k - so that would be about $710 each biweekly pay period. Over 25 years - that’s over $500,000. So that’s a good little nest egg.

Put it in decent broad based index funds - and don’t touch it. Just let it grow.

Think about paying down your mortgage too. Just a little bit more each month will go directly against principal - and that will help.

Car payments are rough. Cars are assets that will never appreciate - so you are losing twice by using a loan to pay it off.

Dom,

Hurricane andrew killed the insurance market in S. Florida. My policy about doubled afterward and kept climbing. Eventually SF dropped me. My agent got me something for over $4K. When that went to $8K, done with it. Since it coincided with my retirement lump sum payout, paid the house off and just keep liability, less than $500 a year. Knock on wood, all good so far. If the home takes a big hit from a storm, I plan on reducing the size to near nothing. We never eat at home, use the bathroom and one bedroom. The rest is basically vacant. If my wife would allow it, I'd turn it into a couple of apartment that I could rent out for about $1500 a month. Oh well!

I'm with stripfighter in that there is some missing puzzle pieces. $60K income, a $600/mo "pad" under max mortgage/car payment limits, frugal on groceries yet OP is cash strapped.
I'm with meat72 in that you'd best see a financial adviser to map out your future moves. If you read my earlier post carefully, I said that you need tuneups on the offense (seek additional income), and defense alike ( identify spending items that you can cut, and have the discipline to follow through on them). This thread is starting to look like a SJG novel.

@meat72- I never represented myself as a qualified financial advisor. I merely responded to OP's question with advice/guidelines that have worked for me. I'm not a licensed meteorologist either, but I think I could tell OP to have an overcoat, wool cap, and well insulated gloves on tap in Cleveland this month.

Dominic, You need to start reading some books and reflecting, and working with your spouse. You can't make any kinds of decisions based on the kinds of things people are telling you here. It's really no different from gossip.

SJG

@meat72

1. For emergency funds (or save up for a replacement car) funds or home repair funds, what sort of savings account do you recommend for that? Those are types purchases I’d like to be able to access cash in 10-30 days. Will a regular savings account work? Or should that be a special type? I’m thinking ROTH/IRA is no good for this, due to penalties. Or would this just be stocks I could sell?

@san_jose_guy said, “If you don't have the cash, then the talk about such is meaning less.”

1. I agree, that’s why I’m starting out simple, and flexible. With just the MSA/HSA for out-of-pocket medical expenses on my high deductible medical plan, and with the regular regular savings account to build up the discipline, first. I’m really lamenting my failure to save more in 2017.

It seems with today’s capitalism, less and less rewards are going to labor and more are going capital owners, and senior management. Since senior management is able to navigate the regulatory environment, and M&A, which seems to boost the company bottom line more than R&D. So if would seem I should start building a nest egg which I can grow by investing. I don’t want to be left out.

I’d unfortunate I didn’t come to this conclusion 20 years ago but that’s life.

@san_jose_guy said, “Can't make life be just about money, ever!”

2. I am starting to hit the point where the deferred maintenance (home or cars) is starting to hit me. I get what you’re saying however when I’m looking at some stuff in disrepair or when I’m one crisis from messing up my finances for 9 months. I need a new approach. I consider, “do I even need it at all? Does it increase my quality of life” To borrow some of the advise above.

@san_jose_guy said, “Many of these guys have benefited from social conditions which have given them an easy path to money. You can tell by their posts and attitudes that they have never had to deal with serious moral issues.”

3. That thought had occurred to me. Still I think some of their experience and guidance will be useful. Successful people even if they bankrupt seem to rebound quicker.

@Bj99

Thanks for the other ideas. We had joked a while ago that we should have her work for a dog wash / dog groomers doing dog washing. She’s naturally good at whispering to larger breeds of dogs.

@meat72 said, “I’d tell you you’re so ducked up mentally from the financial stress that you’re dealing with right now, that you can’t see the forest through the trees … and you’ve avoided the one thing you can control which is your behavior”

I accept that as a real answer. I was on the page last year thinking. Start with $25, then increase to $100 at a time, then keep it rolling. I know I lost my mind when I kept running out of money. Thanks for slapping me back. I will keep taking the small starts in the right direction. I have the 3% raise and reduction in my obamacare insurance, I’ll start putting those into savings to keep the momentum up.

Thanks, man

It would be so nice if banks would let us move money into folders, so that we could use the envelope system in our bank accounts.

Bj99,

What do you mean by "envelope system"?

@Clubber strippers and other tipped people put their cash into envelopes earmarked for rent, car payment, groceries, etc........

Dominic wrote, "It seems with today’s capitalism, less and less rewards are going to labor and more are going capital owners, and senior management."

It may look like that, that the best proceeds go to 'capital owners', but in fact some types of workers still do very well.

But the best goes to business owners, and the best way to reach 'senior management' is to start your own company.

The stock market, that is for people who don't want to be materially involved. It works for pension and insurance funds. And it is such fund managers who determine the prices via their actions. This is why market timing and buying and selling do not work! But you want long term conservative investing. That makes you like these pension and insurance funds. No reason to live like that! And the seeming steady gains are mostly just federal policy of gutting upper tax brackets and then spending in deficit.

But there is a deeper problem. This country is screwed, it has been since Ronald Reagan was elected. It sounds like you are being subjected to social pressure, and so you feel that you are not measuring up to being an adult.

That is how capitalism works, by social pressure. You need to learn to resist that.

But you post here, and all you get is just more of it. That you would hold some admiration for such people explains why you seem to support the Republican Party.

Need to learn to tell f2f people to mind their own business, and not post stuff which creates such problems

You need to start reading books. I have recommended books, and I can recommend more, as I am sure others also can.

Here, exactly how NOT TO START A BUSINESS:
https://www.amazon.com/Money-No-Object-V…

This mentions people I have worked with.

You can't live by invidious comparison. How you handle your money and what you do for it is are always moral decisions. There is no such thing as a universal one size fits all 'success', and that is another reason you can't take too seriously anything posted here, and why it is a bad idea to disclose personal affairs.

Start educating yourself by reading. Then think about what these people are saying and what it really means. Some might be helpful, but there will also be much which has to be rejected.

SJG

Rainbow - Stone Cold
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hByGwgm_…

The upwards tilt to the stock market is the ultimate entitlement program.

Federal policy designed to increase the wealth gap. Gutting progressive income tax while maintaining deficit spending. And then giving tax breaks for IRA and 401k to make sure more money pours in. Thank you Ronald Reagan.

SJG

I was at the thrift store, yesterday, and I bought a copy of Suze Orman’s ‘The nine steps to financial freedom.’ I’m really liking the first few chapters bc the exercises are meant to help you understand the underlying reasons for your attitude ab money. Usually, I struggle w those kinds of lame activities, but I’m actually following these ones, and I’m surprised by how enlightening they are. I think this book could really help you bc of your conflicts ab saving, giving your wife the life she deserves, and future security. This sort of thing is really Suze’s forte (I’ve always liked her. She’s loud, but she does seem very insightful and honest). Her investment advice is probably all pretty much what you already know, and nothing really exciting, but your issues start before the investment can begin, with budgeting, and saving, and the guilt involved no matter what you do. You can get a copy at any used book store, prolly for no more than a couple bucks. It’s a fast read, and even if it helps a little, it’s worth it. Maybe have your wife read it too.

if you arent going to save, you should probably invest in yourself. Go on a diet and get in shape, youre 40. you cant keeping eating cheesburgers with diet coke.

^ actully, investing in yourself is a good way to save, in the long run, on medical expenses, diet stuff, clothes, and cosmetic stuff. Maintaining a healthy, youthful, appearance and energy level, also makes a good impression for work.

“you cant keeping eating cheesburgers with diet coke.”

The President begs to differ...

^ well he can afford the associated medical and added women costs of getting fat and gross.

That’s a good point. There are costs in the short and long term - to keeping in shape. The short term is obvious. The longer term is the potential lower costs of healthcare as one ages. If you are in good shape - and maintain a healthy lifestyle over the long term. Those healthy habits will be second nature - and your overall lifestyle should help you to be less prone to some of the obesity and sedintary illnesses.

Also, as a guy in a corporate job, it can be worthwhile to purchase clothing that lasts. It’s much less expensive over the long term. Men’s styles don’t change as dramatically, so you can get years of use out of good quality button down dress shirts, good quality dress pants, and quality shoes.

^ and you look better in simpler styles. Ppl who don’t natually look good in clothes, have to spend more on brands to offset.

Well This thread got derailed and put back on the tracks with common at the end by focusing on the right things. So much that brought it off track was an over analsysis on a simple topic that revolves mostly around behavior. It’s no wonder people lose focus and discipline in life when they search for red herrings and the answer is right under their nose. Live with less so you can save more, and when saving you should have some invested for the long haul and some in cash for the short term.

“Common sense”^^

I’ve been thinking of buying this book on essentialism.

https://gregmckeown.com/product/essentia…

^^^Go to the library and borrow it, it’s free.

I do w normal reading books, but I like to dog ear and highlight that kind of book, and I often go back later to reference.

25,

Got the envelope comment. I do the same, for all intents and purposes. When I get the funds into my account I transfer a set sum into another account to be used for only LARGE SET EXPENSES. Taxes, truck ins, etc. come due, I have the money sitting there ready to go.

Yeah, 25 pretty much described it. I have envelopes marked for certain expenses. I take my savings out first. The envelope for my rent is actually six months in advance. I’ll do the same for my next car, when this one is paid off soon, like a sinking fund. If I put something on my cc, I go home and take if from the appropriate envelope and put it in the deposit/cc envelope.

I like the envelopes so much, that I might go through the trouble of withdrawing the working portion of my paychecks, and using the same system, if I didn’t deal mostly in cash.

Suze Orman

Popular self help book are little better than gossip. Just another form of social pressure. People need to conduct a much deeper inquire into themselves to make major decisions.

Did you read it? She makes a lot of sense, and much of it is designed to help ppl to inquire into themselves. You think your thoughts and advice are valid and helpful, and hers are too. Some people can’t invest until they mentally feel they’ve covered their bases w insurance, trusts, etc. I have to fight the urge to hoard cash, and safety nets allow me to take the risks of investing, so I find her method very helpful.

@Bj99 If you are finiancially stable I’ll give you a better way to pay your bills and save some money at the same time My way involves using a cash back credit card putting any bill you can on autopay and just pay the CC online. I earn enough money in cash back bonus each month to just about cover my strip club visits. My mortgage, car payment, electricity, water, and just about anything you can think of automatically on my Amex that has a 3% cashback bonus, I have a separate card for gas purchases that pays a 4% bonus and I have a visa that gives me 3 % back on restaurants and 2% on groceries and other things, all in I average over a thousand a month in cash back bonus. And I pay my CCs on time every month so I incur no finance charges. I never use a debit card but in order for this to work you must be in a strong financial position.
I you need further explanation PM me and I’ll try to lay it out in an easy way to follow.

That’s a great way to go, if most of what you deal in isn’t cash. Also keeps your bank statement nice and clean. The cash discount I can often get is more than 3 percent. I do have a card that I’ve had forever. It’s not as high on cash back, but the rate is low. I have my regular bills set up on it. I keep it bc avg life of credit is a major factor in credit score, so I figure what I save in lower interest rates is more important than the 2 percent I’m missing out on, since I mostly use cash anyways. I didn’t know you could have your car and mortgage on your cc tho. I’ll definitely have to look into that.

25,

I got confused trying to figure that one out. :)

ANYWAY anyone does it, the key is discipline.

Now Bj99, should you need some "discipline" lessons, let me know. I work real inexpensively.

Hmm.. I’m more neurotic, than undisciplined, but I hate to pass up a good bargain. ;)

Well you know I’m a contractor in the construction industry and I employ a bunch of people but when I was first starting out it was tough I used the envelope system untill I got my first few major contracts. The third contract I got was so large I didn’t have the means to fund the project, so I got my dad to introduce me to a banker. The banker he introduced me to set me up with a large line of credit in return I have been a loyal customer at that bank, they not only set up accounts for me but as my business progressed introduced me to the wealth management division and I have been with them for over thirty years now. A large part of my business success has been due to very valuable mentors at that institution.
To give back I act as a mentor to several younger businesses and volunteer at a police sponsored boys program 2 evenings a week. We help at risk kids with everything from OTJ training to counseling, I provide some employment opportunities to some of these young folks. If anyone here wants to make a difference I would highly recommend volunteering at a non profit service organization it has done more for me than I can ever repay.

@twentyfive,

I basically do the exact same thing with my credit card, except that my card only pays 2% back. Which Amex card currently pays 3%?

Also, to my knowledge, if you pay mortgages and car loans with a credit card, they usually impose transaction fees that exceed the cash-back benefit of using your credit card. (Although sometimes they just impose a flat fee, which would then make financial sense only if your mortgage payment is very large - which I'm assuming is your case based on the figures you posted.) But other than that, I have all my recurring payments on my card, too.

My only other cards are affiliated with my wholesale club memberships that pay me 4-5% cash back on my club purchases. I use those for most of my routine day-to-day spending.

I think the Amex cash preferred? I had one w my ex. There was a 75 annual fee, but it was worth it bc the grocery store cash back is so high, and it’s one of the few places I spend that much. You have to have excellent credit.

@BHF the Amex is typically offered through wealth management division of a bank or stock brokerage account for high net worth accounts. I pay no fees for either the mortgage or automobile payment, gas is on a fleet management account with minimum purchase imposed before cash back threshold is met
@Bj yes you typically need to have a fico score above 800 I believe, but I was only offering a scenario the cash back on most cards will be usually lower that is true, but it was just used to explain why I like the system that I use.

Wow, definitely worth the hit to your average credit life.

Ive never read Suze Orman’s books, but her insights sound very effective. In many investing books, they offer sound advice, that many folks (of different backgrounds) can use. It can be just what is needed to get a person started with a good cash management and investment process.

It’s good you’ve found useful advice from reading her book.

@Tuscl: I will share the following because of the overwhelming advice and guidance I have received so far. I spent the last few days getting this list ready and sitting the Mrs. down and letting her know that 1.) these are not necessary and 2.) are not ordinary & customary expenses. Data from 10/12-forward is less complete, I think I lost hope that we'd reduce expenses. Last entry not present. It's a 2-4-1 sack and spine combo. ;)

Here's the raw data:

$ 37.50 (sewer, avg 33-42 mo, $9 of it is for trash pickup service)
$ 28.00 (water, 0.2 MCF base rate, incl. $9 hookup)
$ 25.32 (local income tax, mail-in check)
$ 30.00 (electric winter avg, 104-118 high-end in summer)
$ 98.00 (gas winter avg 96-108, 36 baseline for summer)
$ 84.75 (2 cell phones)
$ 79.99 (Internet, --> probably too high)
$195.17 (Auto insurance)
======
$578.72/mo

$ 40.00 (Safari Books online, computer programming books, Dom)
$ _9.99 (Book of the Month Club, Mrs. 77)
$ _8.99 (Scribd online, ebooks, Mrs. 77)
$ 11.87 (netflix, Mrs. 77)
$ _5.00 (Playstation Plus online service, Dom)
$ _5.00 (MotorTrend On Demand, streaming shows, Dom)
$ 18.31 (Hulu + Showtime add-on, Mrs. 77)
$ _4.16 (SiriusXM radio, Dom)
$ 10.80 (Planet Fitness, Dom)
======
$154.12/mo --> holy crap

Gasoline:
$ 114.46 December
$ 170.09 January (driving the truck more)
=======
$ 110-112 is pretty typical for most months

Car and house:
$ 831
$ 296
=====
$1127

Those expenses I have been tracking …

HERE'S PAYPAL:

Paypal, 08/30 - 10/31
$ 168.75 , 9/4, clothing, Mrs. 77
$ __7.29 , 9/29, Steam video game, Dom
$ _30.10 , 10/13, clothing, Mrs. 77
$ _53.21 , 10/20, books, Mrs. 77
=======
$ 259.35

Paypal, 11/1 - 12/31
$ _19.98 , 11/11, Steam video game, Dom
$ _76.03 , 11/13, Cosmetics, Mrs. 77
$ _60.99 , 11/17, household goods, Mrs. 77
$ __4.31 , 11/17, google entertainment, may be video rental, not sure
$ _29.10 , 12/12, jewelry, Mrs. 77
$ _76.58 , 12/29, cosmetics, Mrs. 77
$ _33.45 , 12/31, Steam video game, Dom
=======
$ 300.44

Paypal, 1/1 - 1/31
$ _28.00 , 1/6, household goods
$ 122.09 , 1/13, household goods
$ _23.19 , 1/14, ebay, drinking glasses, replace ones I broke
$ _25.15 , 1/14, ebay, mugs,
$ _13.00 , 1/14, ebay, drinking glasses, replace ones I broke
$ _89.00 , 1/18, household goods
$ _89.00 , 1/18, household goods
=======
$ 389.43 --> holy crap


HERE'S SOME MORE CRAP I buy day to day:
+ amnesia is no excuse; I have no right to complain amount my finances now that I look at this in black and white …

EXPENSE LEDGER
=============
R 8.30 dealership $140.56 tire for car
R 8.30 Walgreens $10.75 beer and candy
R 8.30 Shell gas $9 approx
F 9.01 takeout $21 dinner to go
F 9.01 Quick mart $12 drinks
F 9.01 Clothes $168.75, clothes
S 9.02 takeout $19.75 BFast to go
S 9.02 Drugstore $58 shampoo razors etc
S 9.02 takeout $38.28 dinner in
S 9.02 Quick mart $23.57, drinks dessert
T 9.05 dealership $127.74, tire for car
R 9.07 gas station $2.39 energy drink
F 9.08 vending $1 soda
F 9.08 Quick mart $20 beer
F 9.08 Drugstore $11 digorno and F.Bread
S 9.09 Bakery $10 bread
S 9.10 Drugstore $7.78 crackers
M 9.11 takeout $11.95 breakfast
T 9.12 Shell gas $17.50 gas

S 9.17 takeout $12.04 snack
M 9.18 takeout $9.35 bfast
W 9.20 vending $0.75 soda
R 9.21 7-11 $2.44 red bull
R 9.21 takeout $6.67 treats.
F 9.22 7-11 $2.44 red bull
S 9.23 Consignment store $38.50
S 9.23 Drugstore $14.88 maxi pads
S 9.23 quick mart $38.26 drinks
S 9.23 takeout $19.85
S 9.24 takeout $16.67 bfast
M 9.25 takeout 11.80 bfast
M 9.25 vending $0.85 candy
T 9.26 takeout $15.26 dinner
R 9.28 Shell gas $20.67 gasoline
R 9.28 Drugstore $7.79 choc, drink
F 9.29 Amazon $24.26
S 9.30 takeout $16.32 bfast
S 9.30 Drugstore $20.39 grocery
S 10.01 mom&pop grocer $61.00 grocery
S 10.01 discount grocer $78.15 grocery
M 10.02 book $111.83
T 10.03 vending $0.85 snack
T 10.03 Drugstore $13.98 snacks
T 10.03 book of the month club, 9.99, extra book
F 10.06 takeout $7.29 dinner
S 10.07 quick mart 15.87 drinks
S 10.08 Drugstore $36.35 grocery
R 10.10 iTunes, 12.54 songs
R 10.10 $53.45 UFC pay per view
W 10.11 RTA $10.00 4 fares to jury duty
W 10.11 cafe $1.69 pop
W 10.11 bakery $10.18 bread & snacks
R 10.12 car wash $1.75 vacuum machine
R 10.12 takeout $2.35 potato & coffee
R 10.12 vending $1.40 pop

S 10.14 barber $19 hair cut w tip
S 10.14 Yankee candle $78.80
S 10.14 takeout $28.94 lunch
S 10.14 Drugstore $1.58 mints.
M 10.16 Shell gas $6.99 gasoline
M 10.16 Shell gas $3.00 milk & donut
M 10.16 Shell gas $30.69 gasoline
T 10.17 quick mart $21.54 drinks & napkins
F 10.18 iTunes 1.39 song
R 10.19 takeout $9.35 snack
F 10.20 Shell gas 19.59 gasoline.
M 10.23 ?? 80.44
T 10.24 Shell gas 9.22 rental car gasoline
T 10.24 vending $0.75 soda
T 10.24 Drugstore $19.86 maxi pads snacks
F 10.27 gas station 3.99 fruit
F 10.27 takeout 15.35 dinner
F 10.27 Quick mart 23.75 drinks
S 10.28 takeout $21.21 breakfast
S 10.28 barber $19.00 haircut
S 10.28 marshall's $49.50 Mrs. 77 shop
W 11.06 $53.45 UFC pay per view
T 11.07 Shell gas $24.25 gasoline
F 11.17 takeout $7 bfast
F 11.17 takeout $18.15 dinner
F 11.17 quick mart $41.00 drinks
S 11.18 takeout , unknown amount
M 11.20 takeout $14.20 bfast
M 11.20 car wash $11.00 car wash
W 11.22 takeout $9.48 bfast
W 11.22 Drugstore $27.91 snacks
W 11.22 christmas for Mrs. 77 $120
F 11.24 Shell gas $1.49 coffee drink, Mrs. 77
F 11.24 takeout $16.80 dinner
F 11.24 quick mart 5.39 drinks
F 12.01 christmas for Dom, $120
F 12.01 christmas for friends and family $105
F 12.08 quick mart $15.35 drinks snack
M 12.11 takeout $5.80 bfast

o.0 dafuq.

I spend about $48/mo on dog food for 2 dogs. That's not in the lists above.

Wow. That was prolly a lot of work for you to get that together. Awesome. Your wife is spending too much on clothes, and makeup for a women who doesn’t need to dress to impress for work (and even they don’t have to spend so much). As a woman, I can tell you that I don’t spend that much on myself, and she can spend a lot less. You both need a reasonable fixed allowance.

"
@stripfighter

I put some of my example expenses in a post above this one.
My budget or spending plan seems to resemble a mullet. It's business and frugal in the front but party in the back. After missing my June milestone for saving and still living check to check, I knew I had better start trying where my money was going. I literally had no idea.

Take home (2 weeks) pay is now:
$ 1,748
Most of last year it was:
$ 1,674

Gross: $ 2,488
GTL: $4
withholdings: $665
deductions: $148

@s275ironman & @Bj99

The Mrs. and I were starting a grocery list over a telephone call while I was at lunch at work today. We did keep a lot of the thinks you and @orionsmith had so thankfully shared for meal plans. The idea is simple, frugal, and deliberate and disciplined spending from here on out. Eat out is limited to once a month. That's it, one meal. No more 50+ takeouts in a month or whatever my list shows.

@BurlingtonHoFactory

Thanks for sharing the details on your car purchases. Somehow I was envisioning a 5 figure check. The rapid pay down of the loan makes sense and is more approachable / manageable. You comments are helpful. I like to read how successful people live and plan. So,thx.

@ime

I never bought a new car but it's interesting reading how you guys approach it. Thanks for sharing.

@FTS

I was kind of thinking my mortgage (and entertainment budget) was too high, too. Very informative sample budget.

@cashman1234

Plan is do the smallest length I've been told to take (4y. not 5y). Normally I like to finance 7k max, but I stretched it so I could get an almost new car (2 yo CPO). The idea was to try to mimic what the guys here were mentioning to @juice last year. Buy new, so you know the provenance (don't inherit another guy's problems), then drive it until it gets 275,000 miles. I figure it got about 240,000 miles left in her. So when I pay it off, I plan to keep it until I'm 55 or longer. The plan is to buy a new half-ton pickup truck when I'm 55, with cash. Then I can also write Dream Stripper stories.

Car is sort of a necessary evil for commuting to work and for any outdoorsman hobbies. Or a truck or 4wd for the latter. For now a have a beater truck, bought with cash. The only 3 yo 4wd trucks I could find last year (as new as to not inherit someone else's problems) were all 23,000 or more. Tried to talk a couple down to $17,000 , my max, they would not go that low. So I bought the hatchback car with manual transmission instead, and got a beater truck for times when I need truck. I figure that was the responsible compromise and also my punishment for not having funds to buy a $23,000 truck. I'll save and get there some day soon.

@clubber,

If my wife would allow it, I would take on roommates, too. Not the same as our situation. But having someone pay you rent each month, like I used to in my early 20s, sure helped.

@minnow

Thanks for double-checking my physics as it is with regards to my mortgage and car payments. I wasn't sure if those were numbers realtors through around to justify high housing costs or if normal successful people actually recommended those credit percentages of income as well. I posted some detailed numbers, in case you want to offer more guidance. Unfortunately, most of the spending is frivolous, which is quite embarrassing to say the least. No wonder I'm cash strapped.

@Bj99

Yes, yes, yes. I love the folder system. I used it a lot. Though I made the newbie error of spending the same $100 over and over. (kept pulling money out of ATM $100 at a time, to replenish the empty envelopes mid-month,which isn't how the system is supposed to work.

I've already been telling her NO about spending the last few days. Today we made Orionsmith's potato meal. We put butter, little sour cream, cheese we shredded, and a slice of bacon on each. I teased her saying bacon and SC aren't frugal. She flirted back, yes they are. I think we have more work to do. She's meeting me more than half way.

@Salty.Nutz

I have been eating like crap for most of last year. So it shows.

Also RE: tuition reimbursement. I try to re-invest in my education. Plus the Safari Book service (online computer books).

But you're right about the work-outs.

I don't drink diet soda. The artificial sweeter is no good for us. When I drink soda pop, I drink regular, from a glass bottle. Though more often it's beer, not soda pop. Also not good for me. Neither is my drinking. I haven't drink or bought alcohol since I made this post. No takeout either.

@meat72

I am thinking the thread is on track. I am thinking most financially independent people avoid the type of frivolous spending I detailed in my earlier post today. ;)

@twentyfive said, "My way involves using a cash back credit card putting any bill you can on autopay and just pay the CC online"

^^^ does that include bills that can fluctuate, month to month? Like electricity, phone, etc. Are you worried about a high, unexpected bill hitting and it taking funds out?

^^

You mentioned tuition reimbursement and I think it's great if you're taking advantage of that. I already have a bachelor's degree myself, but it's in a subject that I'm not particularly interested in anymore, and so I've always thought about going back to school to get a second bachelor's in a subject that I do find interesting. (In other words, not something practical, just something academic and intellectual.) But I'll probably never do it because I just can't justify the cost.

Anyway, as for the fluctuating prices of monthly utilities paid on a credit card, it's not much different than paying by cash; you still receive a monthly statement and you can question the charges if necessary. Plus most utilities offer the option of monthly budgeting, so that your bills are the same amount each month (which they recalculate and adjust annually).

@dominic as BHF said it doesn’t matter if they are the same every month or not that’s why I use the Amex I get the statement and am able to review it if there is a difference I check it, as to unexpected expenses it shouldn’t matter that is why you have a savings cushion precisely for those unexpected expenses.
You need to live within your means and you also need to save for those things.

@ dominic. Have you tried talking to her ab temp work? It’s worth a shot, even for her to just do it save for a cruise, or to buy herself clothes. Let her keep 50 percent of the checks for whatever she wants, and use the other portion for savings and to offset the tax increase. The fact that she shops makes me think that she’s not completely happy staying home. Her reasons for not working are understandable, but not something she should let beat her. If you are worried ab her being around entitled men, the non profit sector is woman heavy at the administrative level, and most of the men are Beta types. Volunteer work is another option. The best volunteer work I did was for a non profit hospice. I also got a few offers for jobs, due to my volunteer work there.

@Bj99 just a question regarding your post from yesterday; What bills can you get a discount on paying cash ? Yes sometimes you can negotiate a cash discount but I’ll do that for some things, but not your mortgage or utilities, my mortgage is just under 3% my car payment is zero % financing, occasionally I’ll buy something expensive like. Large screen TV or such and I’ll finance it using a zero percent offer, you can’t get a discount at the supermarket for cash I do using my CC, gas is discounted using the fleet card below the cash price that many gas stations charge, please expand on you answer.

I’ll pm you.

Bj99,

"Now Bj99, should you need some "discipline" lessons, let me know. I work real inexpensively.

Bj9913 Hours Ago
Hmm.. I’m more neurotic, than undisciplined, but I hate to pass up a good bargain. ;)"

Neurotic, eh? I think I have enough of that in my daily life as it is. No need to add more, but still wouldn't mind doing the discipline thing. :)

My anthem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t00a2rOU…

Bj99, The issue with Suze Orman and all of these supposed finance gurus is that they are part of the self improvement industry. They are telling you that if you are not rich, happy, and good looking, then that is your own fault. What else they convey really is secondary. They are telling people to ignore what is wrong with the financialization of pensions, and with wages which have not kept up with housing or medical costs.

Of course people do need to make their own decisions, but that is only made more difficult when people do as our OP has done and make their personal affairs subject to herd approval.

These advice books, like Orman, also make the problem worse, and not in any way better.

I will add an Orman book to the list built up on this thread, but only because I want to be able to better argue against her. She is a major cultural phenomenon, and a very negative one.

https://www.tuscl.net/?page=post&id=5400…

Debunking Personal Finance Gurus Like Suze Orman
https://kpfa.org/episode/against-the-gra…

SJG

My Ignore List:
DrPhil, DrPhil., IME, Meat72, san_jose_gay, tixtittyfag, JimGassagain, Call.Me.Ishmael, SirLapdancealot, L1oydSchoene

That’s as dumb as suggesting that all popular music and tv shows are crap just bc they are popular. You need to read the book. The financial advice is actually pretty basic. She’s less of a guru and more of an interpreter. This book is more ab developing a safety net w proper insurance and trusts, budgeting, tackling debt, and a lot of simple explainations ab what things are. The only real investing she suggests a lot is in a 401 type retirement plans. The rest are mostly explanations. I happen to be anti corporations and stock, and it’s still a very good book. I’ll probably continue to mostly invest in real estate.

Only a total idiot can’t learn from others and take something away from it, that they can make work for them. If someone is such anarrogant idiot, then they would probably be best doing exactly what an expert says anyways.

Btw, SJG, you do realize that the ‘debunkers’ are trying to sell their own books, right? No ulterior motives there.

@san_jose_guy,

Without getting into what you called "the financialization of pensions, and... wages which have not kept up with housing or medical costs," I will say that you seem to have everything backwards with regard to personal finance gurus.

The whole point is that no individual can do much about falling wages or insolvent pension funds. So people like Suze Orman try to get their readers and viewers to focus only on the things that they actually *can* control. Doesn't that sound like a better idea than obsessing about things that you can't control?

Having said that, I'm not much of a fan of most financial self-help authors. Suze Orman is kind of loud and obnoxious. Robert Kiyosaki is just a total fraud. I kind of like Dave Ramsey, though. Regardless, the central conceit for each of them is that small changes can have a big impact. Personally, I disagree: I think that the only path to financial stability for most people is years and years of self-denial and sacrifice, combined with a bit of luck.

I have not contributed my advice because others have said it all. Suze Orman is good for people who are struggling financially, but not so good for people who are able to make substantial investments. What I found when I was young and struggling is that focusing on increasing your income pays off more than limiting your expenses.

It's nice to see people trying to help others instead of being nasty trolls.

SJG rather that criticize the author, it’s important to look at how the author has helped people to re-examine their financial situation and begin to see how they can take control. This is far more tangible than debating larger scale issues.

The advice has worked and it’s begun to help BJ99 - and that’s great.

There are certain small changes that can have an overall positive effect on ones investments, and when a person realizes that - it’s empowering. Many folks hear about investing and saving - and it seems foreign. When one finds a book that works, it makes the process more tangible, and that can be all that is needed.

A friend of mine (who is about 20 years older than me), just couldn’t mail his pension distribution check to a large investment corporation. He thought it was too much to send in the mail. I made an appointment with an investment advisor - drove him into NYC - and he was able to hand the check to the advisor. It got him started in the market. So rather than telling him that capitalism is bad - or telling him that the investment company is bad - I helped him to take tangible steps to get started.

Bj69, Helaine Olen is asked about her book and she does explain it.

BHO, yes but that is the problem. They are simply repeating the oldest American adage, that it is your own fault if you are not rich. And our OP of this thread is making himself subject to that sort of malice by disclosing personal information.

Cashman, telling people to take control is not telling them anything they don't already know. It is simply telling them that they should not be happy doing the job they have. Most of these doctrines, besides being full of bad advice, to do what is being suggested you would need to have a much larger income. Motivationalism is self denigrating poison. But that is what these people are putting out. I am going to read some of these people, and I'll add Suze Orman, simply because I want to be better able to argue against them, as I always have against Dale Carnegie and Napoleon Hill.

For those who want to micro budget, as our OP might want to, the New Road Map Foundation work is idea.

But I have to be honest her, after studying their stuff, I long ago decided that I was not going to live like that, making the accumulation of money the purpose of my life.

What Helaine Olen is saying is that these 'Gurus' are pedaling lies, the idea that you can cut out that latte and invest yourself out of what is a serious political problem.

She does not go into this, but the usual way of defeating capitalism is by communal living. Lots of people do do this. But the usual problem is that the communities don't go much beyond the life of the founder. They work, but only if people want them to.

In any event, no one helps themselves by believing self-help and motivational lies. The biggest problems people face are not too little money, but too little social legitimacy. And these self-help gurus, and the messages they put out are the primary cause of this malady. And this is also what our OP seems to be complaining about, but he makes himself subject to it by disclosing his own affairs on this thread.

And Suze Orman barely knows her own ass from a hole in the ground.

SJG

Strip Club Design
https://www.tuscl.net/?page=post&id=5500…

@SJG you don’t have a clue your posts are the equivalent of one hand clapping.

@san_jose_guy,

Can you step out of character for just one second? Yes, politics and public policy are interesting topics, but no one person can influence politics on his own. It's not possible. Even the president doesn't have absolute power to shape public policy, so what hope does san_jose_guy have?

You're talking about changing the world, while the personal financial authors are mostly just trying to get you to accept the things that you can't change and to maybe save a little money by making rational tradeoffs. You can hate "the system" but still accept that you have to work within it at the same time.

Motivationalism is toxic, it is self-denigrating. And these financial advise books are just another version of it. The financial info they give you is about one thimble full.

But they make life harder because they destroy your identity.

Lots of people have far less income and less reliability of income than our OP does. And yes, finite money does effect how people live.

But exposing his affairs on this thread has resulted in a toxic situation, whether he realizes this or not.

SJG

BHO, the real financial info they give you is about one thimble full. Where as the shit that they dump on you in motivationalism is by the 5 gallon bucketful.

Our OP has lots more money than many people do. Of course he has to make choices as he goes through life, but to do that well he will need some detoxing from what has been done to him in this thread, whether he realizes it or not.

I have recommended some books, which though not perfect, I believe they are good.

And I am not in character, though I will admit that on a forum like this I must come across as a character.

SJG

One of the ways which people fight back and are able to escape the pressures of Capitalism is Voluntary Simplicity. But to be able to do this it takes political consciousness. Otherwise it will just be submission to herd pressure and conspicuous consumption.

Another way people can evade and beat Capitalism is to go even further, Communal Living. But again, it takes political consciousness.

These financial advice books are primarily an attack on political consciousness, making your believe that if you are not rich, then you are doing something wrong, or may not even qualify as an 'adult'.

Two books about these issues:

Status Anxiety by Alain De Botton 2005
https://www.amazon.com/Status-Anxiety-Al…

Money and the Meaning of Life, 1994, by Jacob Needleman
https://www.amazon.com/Money-Meaning-Lif…

SJG

http://www.metrolyrics.com/run-baby-run-…

Sheryl Crow and Eric Clapton - "Run Baby Run" - Pavarotti and Friends - 1996 - live
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzTMN-S1…

LIFEBOAT ONLY!
Register now, or at least save this address some place safe, like in emails to yourself and on paper:
http://testosteronelifeboat.freeforums.n…

Amtrak Collision South Carolina
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/amtrak-…

NOLA
http://image.nola.com/home/nola-media/wi…

Lost Einsteins: The Innovations We’re Missing
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/03/opini…

You ramble ab stuff you don’t know. Until you read Suze Orman’s book, you have no credibility to me. No wonder ppl here call you a troll.

Self Improvement books are manipulation. People don't understand this, what can I say.

But I will read some of her stuff, with the other similar books.

SJG

Rather, with the other similar garbage books.

SJG

Lots of good advice here. What you have to decide is what applies to you at this stage of your journey.

IMO it's financial discipline and cutting out the crap (takeout, cosmetics, books, etc). Good advice about cooking in bulk or prepping a meal, then making it next day works too. Automate the hard stuff; savings, investing, etc, don't make the mistake of thinking you're disciplined enough to do it yourself. It's hard. Automation takes it out.

Eventually you will need a larger income stream. What's keeping you at your current job?? Skills, location, family?? Can you move, either to another city, another state? How much leverage do you have at your current position? Are you easily replaceable? You'll find your true worth once you leave or threaten to leave with another offer in hand.

Just a few things to ponder which may or not apply. But good luck.

Again, telling a poor guy what he is supposed to want, and then telling him all sorts of stuff he has no need to hear. Herd think, making him subject to it simply because he made the mistake of disclosing personal matters.

And of this Suze Orman, she is in Berkeley, a local persona. She is on Public Broadcasting. She offers a self improvement message for those who would be offended by the evangelical Christian version, but apparently not by Suze.

SJG

I see @SJG just you telling him what he is supposed to want, your ranting is just tedious, for the record most here except for you, responded to what he actually said he wanted.
You keep farting into the wind though, it’s funny what stinks is actually you.

Well, she does seem to believe in an eastern philosophy ab spirtuailty. That you kinda get what you give, and there are cycles in life. I truly enjoyed her book and I did not feel told what to want, or put down.

And that, used in that way, is superstition. Again, saying that if you are not rich then you have some sort of ~~spiritual malady~~.

SJG

One thing that I will say to our OP is that once you see how unfair our society is, then you will also see how foolish it is to expose your own personal affairs to the herd.

Then you will see, that though life may not ever be able to be the way you had imagined, what you can do is try to decide what exactly it is which is really important to you, and then try to get that. You have to decide for yourself, what is it bottom line. And then make that happen and enjoy it. But meanwhile you have to enforce a privacy wall defended by lethal force, or the herd will just pick you to pieces day after day after day.

SJG

Bro Topia, Emily Chang

http://www.sfchronicle.com/style/article…

https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news…

https://www.recode.net/2018/2/5/16972152…

Brotopia: Breaking Up the Boys' Club of Silicon Valley, Emily Chang


Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_C…

Three Books Of Occult Philosophy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Book…

http://www.esotericarchives.com/agrippa/

https://www.amazon.com/Three-Occult-Phil…


Taliesin McKnight, Tyler Texas

Secrecy & the Occult: Is it Important?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhna8kQ1…

Spirit Summoning Procedures & Advise - Ceremonial Magick 101
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px39VpND…

SJG said "Again, telling a poor guy what he is supposed to want, and then telling him all sorts of stuff he has no need to hear."

...ahem...

THAT'S WHAT YOU DO EVERY SINGLE FUCKING DAY!

Sorry about the yelling. He has me on ignore.

@stripfighter

I do want to automate the hard stuff. My fear of not having enough money for spending at the end of the month, if I save first, is just unfounded. The hard part has been to repeatedly, and I do mean repeatedly, telling her NO and not wearing me down in the process. She has her good days and bad days. I just imagine she’s a stripper and it make it super easy to say “no thanks.” I have zero fucks to give about her spending money on junk any more here on out.

I know what the problem is or was. It was me feeling like *this* was all I was going to amount to in life, so, I might as well get comfortable / and spent / and acquire the trappings-of / etc.

> “Eventually you will need a larger income stream. What's
> keeping you at your current job?? Skills, location, family??

What’s keeping me at my current job? Knowing that I wouldn’t be able to pay my bills within 30 days without the job. I don’t have leads on another job. I don’t have a network on contacts for a new job. I never cultivated a network. Not having a network hurts a lot. I need to socialize more. I think that would help get some contacts. I think my skills are portable enough to not lock me into just this one job. Not tied to this location for family or because I like the area. Don’t talk to family. I have a house that I still owe more on than its worth. That presents a small issue but it’s not insurmountable. The house is filled with my wife’s crap (possessions), the items would either need to move with us, get sold, given away, or thrown out. To not move because of her or my possessions that would be tail-wagging-the-dog.


> “Can you move, either to another city, another state?”

I could. It wouldn’t be easy and I’ve never done it before, but I’m sick of it all and I’m sick of struggling for my current pay. I don’t have any money saved for a move. But if I thought I could get a better pay and all I had to do was move, I would.

On a side I’d jump to move to a foreign country. I’ve read enough comments on here about Americans not having enough perspective on the world and I’ve seen enough job postings to very senior positions where having lived / worked in a foreign country with significant responsibilities are desired or flat out required.

I do feel like there is no future for me in Cleveland or northeast Ohio. The good jobs don’t seem to be in this part of the country. I’ve just never lived anywhere else, except as a kid. We came up here “for the schools,” and “for the cost of living,” and “family” at the time. None of that is relevant today.


> “How much leverage do you have at your current position?
> Are you easily replaceable? You'll find your true worth once
> you leave or threaten to leave with another offer in hand.”

I’ve tried asking for “management pay” with the justification that I’m expected to work a flexible schedule, take calls emails texts off hours, travel overseas. That that sort of description is more /manager/ than it is /salary-exempt subordinate/. They laughed at that justification saying the 60K already took that into account. For curiosity my boss, manager, the HR girl, and the president, VP, and CFO asked $ what I had in mind. I said 90K, and they laughed even harder. The year before I tried the same stunt for 80K. So I guess I don’t have much leverage. They allow me to choose my own tools (laptop computers, phone, tablet, a calculation workstation for simulations, a development server or two, software all of my choosing and whatever brand) but I don’t think that is what you asked. I think that’s latitude not leverage. Maybe rank without power is more fitting a description.

I’m replaceable but not easily. The comment I get from my boss is that he understands that I won’t stay here forever, he wants to get as much work out of me while he has me, and most importantly he is not looking forward to the day he has to replace me, because replacing me quite frankly won’t be easy. That has probably made me layoff-proof. But it doesn’t ever translate to more money ever in my pocket over my base pay.

My boss has commented (since after my first few months there) that he hopes that when the time comes for me to move on, he hopes that I give them a chance to bid on me or at least try to match it with a better offer. I have asked for money, but never get it. I think the key like you say is to have the offer in hand, then I’ll know my worth.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my original post, @stripfighter sir. :)

I am so ready to move on.

Oh, one more thing. Speaking of leverage. I had a interesting phone call late last week with my boss. He mentioned all the dependences in the codebase for some of the really old stuff for a single customer for some critical thing they had to keep running. You know stuff that only me and one other guy in Ohio — if we can still find him — could understand and keep running because it has lots of special domain knowledge that you really just can’t find in the job applicant market.

He mentioned that if the new GM (that just came on board) found about about that, he, and by extension me, would be in trouble. So I’d better come up with a plan for that and for that customer before it becomes known to the GM and before it becomes a problem, like ASAP.

Not sure if that’s what you mean by leverage. ^_^

Not sure what something like that buys me except for continued employment. -_- . :-/

One final comment. I’ve scene situation like this in the past, where they bring the guy back as a contractor. I’ve seen them pay $150/hr for work that can’t really be done by anyone else because almost no one else is qualified (usually they guy was a PhD, which I’m not, at least I’m not yet), even for 6mo and 18 mo terms. And I’ve seen them pay $300/hr when literally he was the only guy in the world they think can do it, and partially because all of the guy’s documentation was in Russian.

Glad I came back to this thread...When I first replied I didn't know you were in the Cleveland area....Maybe we can get together sometime and talk about this in person...or even hit a club together....or discuss money making ideas...I've blown a shit ton of money in the last month...I've got to cool it myself now.

I'm not losing money from retirement, but I originally started my 2nd income to pay for home improvements, down payment on a new house, extra vacation money....but after realizing that my wife hasn't been interested in sex for nearly all of the time we've been married I diverted some of that into SC escapades.

After reading your posts in this discussion, I see something that might be a bit rough, and I don’t mean any offense, but you appear to be someone who gets very caught in details, very specific details.

The way you depicted spending, with every transaction, and amounts down to the penny, and with other posts regarding the specific details of conversations, shows that. There’s nothing negative about that sort of thing. However, there are other aspects one must consider, and actions must be taken as well.

It is very important to take the advice provided here, weed through the stuff that doesn’t work (for you), and then take action. It’s fine to have a lively discussion, and to hash things out through the back and forth. However, to move forward, actions must be taken.

When I was young (in my early 20’s) someone came to me and said, “Now would be a good time to begin investing for retirement and the future.” I hemmed and hawed, and I said “Sure. I’ll get that started soon.” But that person persisted - and I got started. It was painful at first - seeing my paycheck shrink - and getting nothing from it. I’m glad I listened - and acted.

I’ve fallen into traps at times, and gotten mired in details, and inaction. I’ve charted stocks and mutual funds, I’ve run multiple regressive models, and developed investing strategies for many others. It was difficult to act and do the same for myself. But it’s necessary.

What do you think you will do now? It sounds as though you make a good salary for your area. You are in a good position - as they need you. They aren’t willing to pay more, but that’s not a bad thing. Remember, if they pay you 50% more, they will expect 100% more from you.

I’m not trying to be a total dick, but it’s important to take action, if you want to start saving.

Four lessons from the Wealthy Barber

1. You have to remove temptation triggers

2. Credit cards are evil, even if you don't carry a balance

3. You can't have everything you want

4. Save when the saving's good

^^^^ I have a great deal of respect for the Wealthy Barber. He takes apart a lot of herd think, like the idea that a house you live in is an 'investment', or that you should plan on flipping your residence, or that you should be putting money into ventures you really know very little about, simply because they sound lucrative.

For myself though I am going further, putting money ONLY into ventures run by either myself or those of my circle of close associates. Being our own VC's.

And Dominic77, you are still getting shit dumped on you on this thread.

Nothing will ever work until you can eradicate that herd think. That has to be step number one, the 12 gauge solution.

Around 50% of the US population has zero money beyond expenses. And this does not mean that they are any less moral, or any less adult than anyone else. That is just the way it is.

If you want to change things for yourself, I have recommended books and I can recommend more. But right now, you remain an excrement receptical on this thread. Nothing is more toxic than Motivationalism.

SJG

Dominic77, This is a good place for me to try and explain something. People will often come to a point where life does not seem to be working as they expected money wise, and where they do have to make hard choices. And they have to figure out what is really important to them.

And I have explained about the New Road Map Foundation and about Joe Dominquez and Vicki Robin. Well there is another book written by a married couple in Seattle who worked the program and reached the goal FI (financial independence ), and they are very happy with the result. If you contacted people you could get the book. It is interesting to read how the two married partners each engaged with the effort.

And with their book and the Dominquez and Robin book, 92% of the money goes to charity. They do not need or want other income, as they have already worked it out so that they have what they want and are basically fixed for life.

And though I am very impressed with the clarity of thought and consciousness about money which is found in this, I have also explained that I made the decision not to follow this kind of program for myself.

The reason is that it is still based on the idea of working for money to try and reach some financial goal, this FI. Basically you are selling yourself in order to get an outcome.

To put it more simply, you are working so that you don't have to work anymore.

If I had not studied their program I would not have been able to see this, or to see how for most people this is an unstated norm.

But if you look at how it is for artists, musicians, writers, or scientists, they are not 'working' so that they someday won't have to work anymore.

No, that is the philosophy of people who are selling themselves, and also of people who are schemers and scammers, and who like finding ways of making money off of other people.

Joe and Vicki have just raised it to a new level of sophistication and consciousness. But still, that is not the way that I want to live.

And again, you have to read books for yourself, so that you can form your own opinions about these things, rather than allowing yourself to be continually shit on by a herd.

SJG

Led Zeppelin, Earl's Court
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beK6ChN5…

So another book which influenced me is:

drat, I can't find the book. Okay but this guy had been an English teacher in a private college. He was well liked, so it seemed, but he got laid off. Didn't know what to do.

Money drained down over a year.

One guy was telling him stuff like you can get credit cards, cash advance like $100k. Then have an attorney tell creditors that he has a letter from the debtor saying that if they try to collect he will kill himself.

Book talks about lots of things like that. But clearly this guy is way to straight to do anything like that. So what is the message?

Well, it is telling him that the world is unfair, and so he just has to find out what is the bottom line for him, what is most important. Can't keep living by doing what you have been told to do.

Now for this guy, the bottom line was the house with the white picket fence. He picked the very most conservative kind of goal, because that is what his wife wanted and she was never drawn to anything else, 100% invested in a maternal role.

So this guy was doing Handy Man Jobs at starvation wages. Don't know if he ever got back to anything like he had before. But he did get what he wanted and he got to right his book.

So what I say, is people do have to decide what it is, the real bottom line, the one non-negotiable, because this is a completely unfair world. And the idea of a self-funded retirement is an artifact of the Reagan era, and the stock market has turned into the biggest ever of government entitlement programs. But what ever, we all need to decide what we really want, rather than letting us be motivated by the herd and keeping up appearances.

SJG

The next step I’ve been taking is to look at removing temptation triggers, like @mark94 posted. That’s actually been pretty useful. I got the savings up, essentially doubled now. I was going to post the exact figure, but then @cashman1234 reminded me about me hyper focusing on details. And he’s right!

Temptation triggers, stress, learning to be uncomfortable (esp. around the Mrs) when she’s compelled to want to spend. I just keep a clear head and and let nothing, absolutely nothing, bother me and stay calm. The old, “put her in a box and sit on her.” I just had to use my own advice again. It’s just uncomfortable for a single day, I tough it out, then it’s fine the next. Repeat.

The step after that will be to save 10%, or at least 100$ (pre-raise) either to savings or 401K. Adjust lifestyle changes, if need be. If short, repeat until I’m up to 10%. Then look around and see that else I can do.

I really want a emergency fund. Those extra expenses (like 400 dollars or more) really wreck my finances for 6-9 months. Then after that, I want to save for another truck. I think this truck has 7 years left in her, maybe more.

I’ve also been reading the Wealthy Barber and will read the follow-on book next. So far, I like it. @mark94 has been like the zen master in this thread.

Every 3 or 4 months, I’ll take $60-100 or so and treat myself to a strip club visit and stuff some dollar bills in Bubbles’ g-string. As a reward.

@SJG said, “Well, it is telling him that the world is unfair, and so he just has to find out what is the bottom line for him, what is most important.”

Well, I agree with both statements! I do like the freedom my truck give me. I like working on it, it’s calming and serene. My computer is just about my most important and vital possession. It allows me to do all that I do, including put food on the table. It’s quite a bargain in terms of it as a capital investment (is down right cheap!).

Beyond that, like @twentyfive wrote in response to us bashing @rogertex’s thread as that money don’t buy happiness, only nicer stuff. And he’s right. I pretty much have everything I need. And more money would just buy new versions of stuff I already have. So what I’d like in a liquid fund for all of those several thousand dollar replacements (home repairs, car repairs, a replacement truck years down the line). In the short term, that’s really what I need. I had one of the types up unusual expenses Feb/March last year, and the cascade clusterfuck screwed up my life for almost 9 months until I could get caught up with everything, at the late fees. Basically I funded the emergency by not paying my mortgage and car for almost 2 months. Then paying late, until could get caught up.

That’s what I mean by “adulting.” I think most adults have an e-fund, savings, or assets they can use to cover those. That’s what I was venting about. I will also check out some of the books you mention after the Wealthy Barber books.

@SJG, one more thing. I have no desire for the type of FI (financial independence) where I don't need to work. I actually like work, assuming its in a technology or science field. I'd be so bored if I didn't have to work. Retire by age 67 or 69? OK. So those retire by age 30 stories of true FI aren't something I'm looking for. I have more modest needs.

^^^ Okay, that was actually what I had suspected about you. So then the 'investing in the stock market for retirement' angle does not really fit with you beyond a point?

I spoke about the guy who decided that his bottom line is the house with the white picket fence.

Well for me, it really is not material. I want to keep learning and keep applying my skills and abilities.

Sure I have all sorts of things I want to own, like especially the sorts of things which fly and which float.

But none of that is actually a requirement for me. I can live with almost nothing. And of course I use computers and like working on bicycle and automobiles.

Basically I break from most of the population and with the sorts of people on this board, in that I have never gone along with the idea of 'working' in order to get something else, like say retirement money, or just stuff.

Really, I don't go along with the concept of 'working'. I'm not alienated labor, or at least I do my best not to let myself get cast into such situations.

What I do is an expression of who and what I am.

So I 'work' in order to position myself so that I can more fully apply my talents and abilities, but never because I just want to have money to retire.

Good Luck
SJG

So about money:

https://www.amazon.com/Money-Meaning-Lif…

https://www.amazon.com/Status-Anxiety-Al…

For career changers, I recommend this to all, any year's edition is fine:
https://www.amazon.com/What-Color-Your-P…

The only book which goes deeper:
https://www.amazon.com/Zen-Art-Making-Li…

How NOT to start a business:
https://www.amazon.com/Money-No-Object-V…

How to start a business:
https://www.amazon.com/Honest-Business-S…

https://www.amazon.com/Growing-Business-…

And about money:
http://www.wholeearth.com/book-reviews.p…

Very Important:
http://www.wholeearth.com/issue/2024/art…

SJG

Patrick Dunn
https://www.amazon.com/Postmodern-Magic-…

The Uplifters
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zzXYPJA…

"demonstrates how crime, moral puritanism, and conflicts between ruthless capitalists and striking workers help ruin the lives of marginal Americans."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intoleranc…

But not all feminism is like this:

https://www.guerrillagirls.com/
Feminist artists, pro-sex, pro-prostitution. On the whole quite similar to the Russian girls, Pussy Riot.

"According to the authors, before agriculture, sex was relatively promiscuous, and paternity was not a concern, in a similar way to the mating system of Bonobos. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_at_Daw…

https://www.amazon.com/Sex-Dawn-Stray-Mo…

Crisis and Openings: Introduction to Marxism - Richard D Wolff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9Whccun…

Led Zeppelin 1969 Danish TV
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-WSbMW7…

Led Zeppelin II
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bcIjILq…

Dominic, now I've not read the personal things you have disclosed on this thread. That is not my interest.

I just want to point out one thing which you may be experiencing. It almost always goes that the people who have the skills, the people who do the work, are never well paid.

Rather, the money goes to the people who do the selling, the people who manipulate image, who make the deals, who invent the pitches.

See, there is no shortage of capable people, at least as most jobs are defined, not requiring much. But of pitch makers and image makers, that is actually how the money comes in.

Now of course this is a product of industrial capitalism. But I feel that it goes much further back. It goes back to primitive societies, as discussed by Veblin. That is, those who make war, those who make image, those who steal from other peoples, these are the ones who are respected.

Well, in the group I am building, we will be political, and we will be at war. But those who do the work will always be valued, and everyone will be getting a live long education.

SJG

Inducting women into my group:
https://www.tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=…

California Dreamin' - Royal Gigolos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buT2gdKx…

After all, what is Neoliberal Capitalism? Its just the telling of distortions and lies and getting other people to salute them, while you are profiting from their labors. It is just a new version of the barbarian rape, pillage, and plunder.

SJG

Epitaph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FW-N50U…

Court Of The Crimson King
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvCmtHDD…

I haven’t ruled out eradicating the herd think. But I did want to get the advice of successful millionaires, assuming some are represented in the advice above. I figure knowledge is power.

twenty-five is right, I did get a lot of advice that I was looking for. A lot if it is useful, I will need to sort through it. Don’t work about fecal receptacles. I’ve been getting dumped on all of my life. A few more weeks and posts won’t further damage me.

One thing that did sort of surprise me is that lack of earth shattering life changing
like the sorts of things that are secret from those not in the know. Let me explain. I’ll draw a parallel with marriage fidelity and monogamy. Before I was 18 y/o, the moral guidance was be monogamous, don’t cheat on your spouse. This was the instruction from honorable me. Then when I turned 19 y/o the message changed. Sorry kid, that really isn’t how the world works. We sort of lied. Many of us cheat (with women at the office, women we meet at hotels, and escorts). Sorry kid, we thought you knew.

I was expecting a similar epiphany with some of the successful people here. Sort of a “you can’t handle the truth” sort of truth that only men in the bro code tell each other. Sadly that doesn’t exist. but at least I can get my dick wet!! ;)

I guess finance is finance it's just marriage that is the illusion.

^typo, "Don’t WORRY about fecal receptacles"

The savings I create now will be useful whether I not I start my own ventures. It's just hard to extract really good wages out of the job creators out here. They only want to pay so much. So would I, if the tables were reversed. I'm starting to understand why conservatives are so bone crushingly smug and self reliant. I would too if I went through what they did to start their own venture. I'm starting to GET IT.

I've been critical of PLs on here that say civvie dating is too hard. Bullshit! Even those like GACA with high incomes and what should be high intellect and cunning, say this. Well, I should reverse my own logic. And that increasing my income or income streams should be possible.

^^^ high intellect is the cause for difficulty with civvie women. Intelligent guys have more difficulty.

High intellect does not cause difficulty w women; it causes high standards, which cause difficulty in getting laid, for a lot of reasons.

^^^Please expand on that ;)

Someone who is smart sees the complications involved, her flaws, their lack of true connection. I think it would be easier for a very smart guy to see the logic in p4p, while a dumb guy doesn’t see the mess he is getting involved in, just to get laid.

Dominic, I think what you are seeing is simply that the people who have the real skills and do the real work are always underpaid. Its the scamsters and the hucksters, the people who put out an image and who do the selling, and the people who manufacture lies and propagate them, who are well paid. No reason to learn from such.

In the organization I am building, it will never be like that.

On another note Dominic, in times past you had ventured the view that most married men with high incomes cheat.

I do not know if this is true or not. But my feeling is that it is an overestimate which you are making.

Let me site a few data points which are influencing my view:

1. If most guys cheated, then our whole society would have a loser attitude about sex.

2. The rules for sex and the rules for money are always closely connected. If most guys cheated, our society wouldn't be so persecutory of the poor.

3. Believe it or not, I do have contact with church congregations. I am sure that most of the men in these do not cheat. Looks to me that most of the men and the women have become asexual.

4. There is an increasing cadre of adult men and women who are not married. Either never married or divorced. Now these people have sex, but that is not cheating. There are lots of young women perfectly happy with 'sugaring'. There are a surprising number of well employed men who just don't want to marry. This seems to be the real change, not more cheating, but more people unwilling to put up with the problems which seem built in to marriage.

SJG

Read my posts about Elon Musk:
https://www.tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=…

And I plan to read:
https://www.amazon.com/Why-Men-Earn-More…

Nominally about pay equity, but it also must get into the dynamics of who gets paid what and why. Only way to know what he says is to read it.

SJG

^^^^ Why men earn more : the startling truth behind the pay gap--and what women can do about it / Warren Farrell. (2005)

@san_jose_guy ,

If you read that book by Warren Farrell, you'll see that the gender wage gap is total bullshit.

^^^^^ I'll keep that in mind.

SJG

FBI using a different def'n of rape. Not sure what to make of this.

"For more than eight decades, the FBI classified “forcible rape” as “the carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will.” In 2013, it reclassified the crime as “penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.” Naturally, that broadened the scope of the crime. The FBI estimated that the old terminology excluded 40 percent of rapes."

http://www.sanjoseinside.com/2018/02/21/…

necro my own thread: My finances have improved day by day. I had some unexpected car maintenance and repairs, nothing major, that's life. Being thrifty helped me meet those. Ended up getting laid off recently. LOL. I was wondering when it would happen to me. I have some job leads from contacts I didn't even know I had. I'm upbeat and positive about it all. Thanks everyone who gave me advice earlier this year. It's helped.

Sorry bud. My bet is you’ll find something soon, to the point you can start Mongering again.

Thanks, Jim.