OT: NFL Players Kneeling During Anthem

tuscl.net

I agree it's bull shit

Well fuck you jackie. Lol.

I would love to hear the opinion of our resident war hero on this topic.

It will gain them points with Social Justice Warriors, the vast majority of the country will think they are losers though.

Agree or disagree with the kneelers, I do believe that the President of The United States should be above calling them names. Neither should he tell a private business that they should fire its employees for doing something he doesn't like. 

Also, if Trump is a business genius, then why doesn't understand why it's not feasible (or legal) to replace and unionized employees who can't be fired mid-contract?

If he wants people to respect his presidency, then he should start by treating the office he holds with respect. A nice start (8 months in...) would be not getting into an empty cultural war with professional athletes and the people who employ them. 

If I'm reading the news correctly, there's other stuff he could focus on.

"A nice start (8 months in...) would be not getting into an empty cultural war with professional athletes"

It goes beyond that. Trump's fiery temper tantrum at the NFL players was far more extreme than his criticism of the white nationalists in Charlottesville (where someone was actually killed). Has all the ugly racial overtones that got Trump elected. Otherwise this is a non-issue.

This is the predictable outcome of Trump's statements. I find myself asking the same question as Ish above: how can a guy who has built a business into billions of dollars, be such a retard? It's as if the man has no idea how people act and react at all ... this was mostly a non-story that a few people grumbled about, until Trump worked his magic.

For myself, I think the general sentiment behind all this is a fine one and worthy of national conversation, but I don't think the national anthem at the football game is the place to have it. The irony of millionaire over-entitled man-children who as a group are over-represented among wife abusers, using this time to make a statement that comes off as disrespect to the only country that would enable such people, isn't lost on us.

From my recollection - it almost seemed that fewer players were taking knees before the president started to make his statements. Now it's back - and it's even more polarizing than before.

I don't agree with what the players are doing. They don't seem to care that they are dishonoring those who've given the ultimate sacrifice for this country. There are other places for them to take a stand - but the national anthem isn't one of them!

This isn't a good comparison - but this is like flag burning - folks are willing to fight and die for the flag and the freedoms it represents - and yet there are folks who live here who would actually dishonor it by burning the flag! It's wrong - and it doesn't belong here.

I've always felt like it was kinda dumb how it's such a huge Show of patriotism to play the anthem, and stand, before a sporting event. Like that's the ultimate in being an American. Hefting your ass up, when everyone is looking, and standing for a few moments doesn't not make someone patriotic. I resent ppl who feel superior simply for partaking. That said, all attention seeking protestors annoy me, but in this case the whole show is for attention anyways.

I don't see it as a dishonor to vets. Plenty of vets agree w the players, and plenty don't. Only military personnel should be expected to fall in line and follow blindly, bc that's how they vowed to serve. Civilians should thoughtfully use their rights, participate in their community, and vote with a sense of responsibility.

Totally agree with bj99.

I also think that people with their panties in a bunch about this must not like the constitution, especially the first amendment which these protesters are peacefully exercising.

Plus, the NFL predates the national anthem anyway. Yeah the song was written in the 1800s, but wasn't the "national anthem" until 1931 and the NFL was established in 1920 (I think). People whining and complaining about free speech and free expression need to stop acting like little bratty children and either shut up and listen to the issues being protested, or ignore the protests altogether. They're not endangering anyone unless someone is so delicate and somehow hurt by the peaceful protests that they're going to kill themselves over it.

And yes, plenty of vets agree with the protesters.

I called this a few days ago and I was right I don't feel that these athletes are disrespecting anyone or anything, a year ago I was in the other camp that said this was disrespectful I have sincerely changed my mind because of all of the bullshit that has flowed under this presidents watch. Hard to believe that he has only been president for 8 months, I didn't like him or vote for him, I'm even more convinced now than I was a year ago, he is just no good and getting worse. This is what I posted earlier on another thread and I think it sums up what has happened pretty accurately

Here is what I believe is going to happen next. Because of the NFL protests there is going to be a ton of interest and the NFL TV ratings are going to rise dramatically for the next few weeks and your clueless President Donald Trump is going to take credit for that as well, he will actually believe that he made the ratings go up because people agree with him. The sad truth is he is the cause, but it's a huge negative, his own base is starting to get tired of him, after all NFL fans are overwhelmingly part of his base upper middle class and white, my feeling is that this is the beginning of the end for him.

One thing I'd like to know is how sincere these kneelers are. I haven't looked into it. Are they just kneel to get a few minutes in the spotlight and feel warm about their virtue, or are they out there doing some real work for the cause to get changes to happen?

^^^i don't think it really matters I believe that Trump has finally opened a hornets nest and the consequences are yet to be felt.

^^^Remember Richard Nixons silent majority was with him on the Vietnam war and all of a sudden it changed, don't ever forget that, this feels like that.

^ prolly ab as sincere as the standers. Some mean it, and some are just doing it for the show, and bc all of the other cool kids are.

Well Dougster when Kap first started doing it everyone asked the same question and he went on to donate 100k for ten months (1M) + his jersey sales to different causes such as helping underprivileged youth, organizations against police brutality, and veterans' mental health. He knew there was a good chance it could cost him his job.

Regardless, these guys have millions of people watching them so even a peaceful protest in itself will incite conversation and that is where social changes will start. People have to notice, people have to talk about it.

I just choose to watch baseball only until the World Series is over. At that point I will assess my need to be entertained by football, and even then the college conference races should be heating up.

Once the NFL got on the bandwagon of dividing national opinions, my fatigue on the matters set in. My give a shit meter just registered beneath my toes on this topic. GFY= good for you, or go fuck yourselves. It's up to you to decide where you fit.

Looks like a little less than 10% of his salary. Okay that's something. Did he really risk his job? Or was he aware the backlash that would cause so there never any real danger? Okay, let's say he does count as sincere.

That's one of the kneeler. How about the rest of them?

I probably shouldn't say anything on political threads, but I'll chime in.

Won't change a thing. The new kneelers are not protesting America or the flag or anything like that. They're showing solidarity with their teammates and protesting the President calling for people to be fired.

I think there are going to be 4 kinds of people. those who hate the kneeling and think Trump is just plain right. I bet their about 25-30% of folks. Some will turn off the NFL but many will watch and bitch about it.

Then there will be some who don't like kneeling to protest but understand the new kneelers are supporting teammates and wouldn't be doing it if Trump had kept quiet. Then there are folks that don't care, period. I don't care, though I don't like the idea of the president telling a company to fire employees.

Finally, there are those that like the kneelers.

We'll see. But the bigger picture is that it is seriously non-brilliant for the POTUS to tell a private company to fire somebody. Anybody. Doesn't matter who the POTUS is or whether he's liberal or conservative. Our President should be above that

I have more respect for those on either side who are sincere and thoughtful ab their decision to stand, or kneel, but why are only the kneelers expected to be making some personal sacrifice. It doesn't cost ppl anything to stand, and no one cares if they only do it bc it's what everyone does, or bc it's what their fans expect.

Also doesn't matter that player's contracts would permit arbitrary firing. The POTUS should be above calling for a person to be fired, period.

"That's one of the kneeler. How about the rest of them?''

Do you really care, or are you just looking for something to complain about? Some are protesting oppression and police brutality, some are doing it to show solidarity in response to Trump's ignorant, fascist statements. Even if that's all they're doing, it is their American right and they have a large platform to get discussions started; they've done that, if nothing else. If you're really that interested in how much money has been given or charity events attended by each individual who participated in the protests, you have a lot of research to get started on.

The funny thing is that the NFL fines players for trying to use their free speech against domestic violence and breast cancer, even in cases where the player's mother has died from those things:

dailywire.com

Pittsburgh Steelers running back DeAngelo Williams was fined $5,787 in 2015 for wearing "Find the Cure" eye black with the message "We will find a cure" printed along with a pink ribbon, according to Aditi Kinkhabwala of NFL Network. His mother died of breast cancer in 2010.

Another Steelers player, William Gay, was fined $5,787 in 2015 for wearing purple cleats to bring attention to domestic violence. Gay’s action was also moving because his mother was killed in an act of domestic violence.

The entire NFL and virtually all other "Pro" teams are nothing but a bunch of spoiled brats. The are protesting inequality!!! What have they done to combat it besides lip service. These guys have so much time and disposable income on their hands it is sick. How many of them do anything but live it up?? So few of them ever go back and work in the communities that they left. They want to help? Go back to their neighborhoods and start an outreach program to help communication between the cops and residents. Start a community watch and support group to chase out the criminals that cause the cops to come to the neighborhood. Educate kids to become cops. How many businesses have the rich mouths started in those areas to employ their neighbors? They have the money to do all these things and more. Put you money where your mouth is or shut the F... up! It is the same with Hollywood, they make an obscene amount of money for unimportant fluff but try to dictate to the rest of us how to feel when their pathetic live are spent doing things that really have almost no value in the scope of the world. If stars and pro sports disappeared tomorrow few would notice in their everyday lives of working and surviving. Ask a starving peasant in Argentina if he cares what Kathy Griffin does or who Kim Kardashian f...ed last week. Or the flash in the pan quarterback Kappernic is complaining about now. The vanity of these brats is astounding.

Yes there are some go back a give back: Payton Manning built a wing on a children's hospital and fund free care, Le Bron James helps renovate houses in his old neighborhood similar to habitat for humanity, Walter Payton is still doing good even after his death, there is a minority in pro sports that go back and give back. Just throwing money around doesn't provide a long term solution unless they go back and lead the way with businesses and education. Lip service like the "kneel down" protest all fluff and most see it for what it is: fashionable to sooth the brat's egos for not doing anything. Opportunity is the only thing that will combat racism. You cannot be given respect you must earn it. Malcom X had it correct: How can we expect the white man to respect us when we do not respect ourselves. You want cops to change? Get more black, and hispanic cops on the force. I am reminded of a latin saying you get: naught without labor. I other words you get what you pay for; lip service is free as are politicians words and they are worth exactly what they cost = NOTHING.

Here’s my take, and since it is my opinion it is the right one.

First, I don't think POTUS should be calling for an action (firing), though I would have been happy with him voicing his disagreement. If I were an owner I would not permit an employee to act in that way while representing my team.

@BJ99: “Hefting your ass up, when everyone is looking, and standing for a few moments doesn’t not (sic) make someone patriotic.” I agree with your intended meaning. At the same time, not standing does not make someone “unpatriotic”.

However... My understanding of the purpose for standing during the National Anthem before sporting events is to honor and thank those that have served and sacrificed to defend the rights and freedom of all Americans. I agree that by not standing an individual is exercising one of these rights, but just because you can do something doesn’t mean that you necessarily should. I do not think asking someone to stand to show that appreciation is asking very much. If able, to not stand is an active and willing show of disrespect in much the same way as it would be to shout out when a crowd is asked to observe a moment of silence for the passing of someone or after some traumatic event.

It is probably difficult for someone who has never served or has never been close to someone who has sacrificed significantly to understand.

There are other effective, peaceful ways to protest without this type of (I give the benefit of the doubt here) unintended consequence.

I also don’t think many people who take offense to this type of protest feel any type of superiority. I don’t see these protesters as inferior, just as ungrateful and self-centered.

What Nina said in her "panties in a bunch" post, and what JS said in his.

I think Kaepernick was the only principled one doing this though. The rest of them appear to be grandstanding and climbing on the bandwagon.

idk what to think. perhaps it is just a fad for the moment. time will tell.

The point is this transcends Trump being an idiot or concern for minority suppression.

Mr and Mrs middle America only see a bunch of spoiled rich athletes disrespecting the country.

And yes, these idiots should not be protesting by kneeling. They should wear an arm band or hold a sign but kneeling is dumb as fuck. Shit, me and most of America had know idea what the fuck they are protesting at this point.

Random Thoughts: Trump is a moron; Trump needs to shut up; Trump has no business as President supporting or attacking a private business; the protesters are protesting a non-issue; Michael Brown's shooting was 100% justified so the whole movement is based on a total fraud; most Americans use sports as a time out from the coming civil war; I/we booed the New England Patriots players yesterday and for the first time I was kind of hoping they'd lose. Great job getting the Steelers ready Mike Tomlin; same with the Ravens coach overrated.

I'd rather have a stripper kneeling.

o fuck yes.

The NFL, an organization which has perhaps created more minority millionaires than any other, is being destroyed from the inside by it's own self-righteousness and pampered snowflake tantrums.
My opinion is that folks watch sports and entertainment to escape from the endless daily barrage of politics and news commentary. For those athletes to force politics in our face during our escapism, shows how unprofessional nd self-centered they are. They could use the off-season and the buy weeks to go around stumping and editorializing. They could use their multimillion dollar paychecks to film commercials or fund organizations to promote whatever message they have. Any of us would terminate an employee or be terminated by your employer for engaging in such shamelessly unprofessional and divisive behavior while on the job. These guys should face the same consequences. Your job requires you to go out and stand for the national anthem before each game, so just do it and be grateful for the opportunity. Then you have the rest of the week to tweet about race relations or speak to high schools about your experience as a minority. It is all so very silly.

As an actual military veteran (unlike a certain tuscler) and a military brat growing up, I say F@#% all of them! Disrespecting our flag and anthem is not the answer. As a black man, I have anger towards the idiot cops who shoot innocent victims ( and soil the good name of REAL OFFICERS). There, I'm done venting and need to club now!!

You're a good dude, clubdude!^^^

TL;DR but I must state this. The teams who played in England this past weekend, I believe Jacksonville teammates knelt for the Star Spangled Banner, and then all stood for "God Save the Queen". If this doesn't show anything to you all but one thing about this topic, which is the complete stupid idiocracy of these NFL players. That act completely defies all knowledge of history and any logic whatsoever!

Think about this, the British capitalized more on slavery than any developed country in the world and established the practice in America. It wasn't until the United States came along under this flag, and under our constitution did the black slaves finally gain some freedom and became emancipated!!

The sheer ignorance of the NFL players in London showed their lack of respect for history and the amendments to the US constitution. These protesters have everything all bassackwords. Smh at all the stupid posters anywhere that actually believe the NFL players should protest this way. It is a sham and a disgrace for those people to disgrace our nation's heritage like that. It's borderline imoral.

@Nina: Yeah, you're right. I don't care enough to do research on it. Was hoping someone else would know the answer. But I just won't concern myself with it one way or the other. Stand, kneel, take a nap. It's all good!

Never disrespect the Flag.

;-)

I honestly think Kaepernick was just trying to grab some attention when he started this, when he doubled down though I think maybe it was legitimate.

The most recent protests are, as someone said, just a big "fuck you!" to Trump's idiotic remarks.

It's easy to say people have their "panties in a bunch" but imagine people disrespecting something you cherish and respect in the name of vague "protest".

Villanueva's rocketing jersey sales are also and interesting/amusing point.

I had this thought occur to me so I decided to add it here. Fuck Trump a basketball team declined him in protest so he looks to pick a fight with a bunch of football players fuck him he is a whiney little bitch.

@25 I'm a bit confused here. Are you saying you do or don't like President Trump?

^^^Silly goose

The NFL has a rulebook and it expressly states that players must be on the field, standing, with hat or helmet in their left hand, facing the flag, during the National Anthem. The penalties for failing to follow this rule are described as fines or suspension or both.

That is their rule, not Trump's, not mine. If the NFL doesn't want to enforce their own rules, that is their business, not mine - but I don't have to pay their absurd ticket prices to go to a game, that is my business. If millionaire (avg. NFL salary over $2 million) spoiled brat players want to intentionally dishonor this nation by "taking a knee," that is their problem. I don't have to watch their games.

Fact is, Sunday morning I tuned in to watch the Baltimore/Jax game just in time to see the players all standing for the UK flag raising and then half of them (on both teams) knelt when the Star Spangled Banner played. I turned off the TV. Reports from the rest of the league show that a bunch of ignorant "protest" kneelings occurred, generally with the support of owners. That is their choice. I think it is a rude, stupid choice, but many generations of my family put on a uniform and served in defense of their right to express their stupidity.

My only response is - I have quit following the NFL, no more stadium tickets, no more watching televised games. If the league and it's owners change their mind, follow their own rules, stop the petty, disrespectful kneeling crap, I might reconsider. In the meantime, I have more SC time available!

Amen Dallas. I will only watch a periodic game on tv, but for now it's baseball only. I will not by any tickets to games or NFL merchandise, because what they stand for doesn't reflect my values. I love the game, but not the media surrounding it.

I too will create my own reality by focusing on people who have a little more respect for our heritage besides the NFL.

Well said Dallas! I agree with your stance, and I'm reconsidering if I'll be following the NFL this season.

What would really hurt would be an organized and widespread boycott of the NFL's sponsors.

dallas702: "The NFL has a rulebook and it expressly states that players must be on the field, standing, with hat or helmet in their left hand, facing the flag, during the National Anthem. The penalties for failing to follow this rule are described as fines or suspension or both."

Ah, good information. I was not aware of that.

"And yes, plenty of vets agree with the protesters."---I doubt it. Yeah, I'm sure all vets agree that they have a right to do it, but I'm willing to bet vets would agree by a 10 to 1 margin that this taking a knee BS is disrespectful to our flag and our country and not the right the way to send whatever message it is they are trying to send. And this isn't about the First Amendment, which protects only against government action. No one is saying they ought to be arrested or fined by the govt. But the NFL is a private organization and can set whatever rules it wants to about how its employees/players behave while on the clock and Goodell ought to grow a pair and get control of these rich, spoiled, cry baby pussies.

Roger Goodell and the NFL is just worried about any negative backlash that could occur by forcing them to stand. From Black Lives Matter to the left wing media, they figure there would be less noise this way than insulting good patriotic and hard working middle class Americans, who are too busy to give a shit what is happening on tv.

Well they need to either change the rule or enforce it. Or be too pussy to withstand the backlash either way and do nothing (which would be my guess what they do).

I'm a vet and I would boycott the NFL over this shit except I am already boycotting all professional sports. It's all about the money. The owners are not about to upset their players. They want to win and increase their fan base. Thus revenue.

Oops did I say fan base. Since when do they give a shit about their fans. Did the Rams give a shit about the L.A. fans when they moved to St. Louis or did the Ram give a shit about the St. Louis fans when they moved back to L.A. And what about the San Diego Charger fans. The list of movers goes on and on. Fuck em!

@Dallas702 said: "The NFL has a rulebook and it expressly states that players must be on the field, standing, with hat or helmet in their left hand, facing the flag, during the National Anthem. The penalties for failing to follow this rule are described as fines or suspension or both."

Except that's not true:

amp.kansascity.com

amp.timeinc.net

snopes.com

The rulebook has no policy on the National Anthem. The NFL Game Operations Manual only requires that players be on the sidelines for the anthem.

With regards to their posture during the anthem, it states: "During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area SHOULD stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking." [emphasis mine]

'Should' is not a requirement; it's a recommendation.

Well, shit. You mean I made a mistake to trust that that right wing whackjob Dallas702 would have got his facts right on this one? Now I'm gonna have to fact check everything he says in the future? What is TUSCL coming to when can't just trust what the political whackjobs here say?

When the NFL insults the majority of it customer base, the customers will direct their attention to something else.

The NFL is much like a public entity, therefore it panders. Well they've alienated the largest income producing group that contributes to the economic base. If this continues much longer it will hurt revenue, so the NFL better hope this topic blows over pretty quickly. The NFL players I do t think really know what they're doing.

From what I read here the other day, the NFL royally fucked up the Indianapolis strip club scene. For that, they deserve to go out of business. Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.

Unlike the unpatriotic NFL players, those NASCAR enthusiasts have the greatest respect for the American flag:

sbnation.com

I heard on the radio today that Direct TV will reimburse anyone that wants to cancel the season ticket package. It will be interesting to see how many do, though the sample group would be heavily skewed towards passionate football fans.

Ishmael, good pick up. I did say, "rulebook." I should have specified that I was not referring to the game rules. The rule I referenced can be found in the NFL Game Operations Manual. It is there on pages A62-63. The newspaper you referenced to, "prove" I was wrong even included the actual reference in the story.

Any reader here who chooses to interpret, "should" as only a recommendation, has never served this country or worked in a responsible position in the corporate world. In most of the world, if you don't do what you SHOULD, you are at risk for disadvantagous consequences.

You guys can get as worked up about this a you like, it's really a non-issue, a distraction, if you will, so Trump can avoid his responsibilities,, and actually get away without doing the actual work, required of the President of these United States. If none of you can see this you are just as stupid as he thinks you are.

Everyone has rights and should exercise their rights with respect. For example, recent violent protests after dark in St. Louis are unlawful.

Celebrity athletes have the right to use their celebrity to endorse their cause du jour. If they wish to endanger their popularity, that is their right.

Teams and leagues have the right to impose behavioral standards on their employees as public opinion affects profitability and league/franchise viability.

Fans and paying customers have the right to boycott athletes, teams, or leagues that chose to endorse their causes in ways that are perceived as objectionable. Either attend and applaud, attend and boo loudly, don't attend, tune in, shut off the TV, boycott the sponsors and tell their PR departments why you are boycotting. It is all good.

I wish Trump would act more Presidential -- but even HE has the right to speak his mind, albeit dangerously and irresponsibly. If he wishes to risk being a one termer, that is his right. If he fails to uphold his responsibilities to the US Constitution, he can be impeached. Until then, he is free to run his mouth -- again most inadvisably.

Personally, I am done with the NFL and NBA. I will stick to college football and college basketball . . . oh wait, college basketball . . . hmmm, may have to take up bowling. Oh wait -- hockey!!!

“if I had noticed my teammate sitting on the bench, it would have really hurt me … We sorta came to a middle ground where he would take a knee alongside his teammates. Soldiers take a knee in front of a fallen brother's grave, you know, to show respect. When we're on a patrol, you know, and we go into a security halt, we take a knee, and we pull security. [Kaepernick] said, 'I think that would be-- I think-- I think that would be really powerful.’ And, you know, he asked me to do it with him. And I said, ‘Look, I'll stand next to you. I gotta stand though. I gotta stand with my hand on my heart. That's just-- that's just what I do and where I'm from.’”

. —Nate Boyer, Army vet, NFL player

^^^ Interesting story where this all started from. This is the old Kaepernick story not the taking a knee from the latest round of President Trump tweets.

I was always thought that important part of standing with your hand on your heart was that you stop what you’re doing and think about something other than yourself — freedoms you enjoy, gratitude for that, etc. But that it was the being quiet and reflecting more than the standing that was important. I.e. sitting and being distracted was and probably is worse that taking a knee and reflecting.

One more thing. I want to thank the vets for their service. It’s unfortunate that the chosen method of protest completely pisses off, or about, 90% of them. But maybe it might help to remember that the oath was to swear to protect and defend the U.S. Constitution. Which the first amendment said that citizens have the write to address grievances against those in power. True that’s against our leaders and government and that the NFL is a private organization. But the oath was to defend that document not the national anthem, not the flag, etc. SO maybe the pissed off vets can take that into context. I dunno. Maybe not. It’s your right to be pissed if you want to. I don’t take that away from you.

PS: For a while conservatives have been saying black men (Kaepernick is only half black, I know) should “peacefully protest” yet we all have a problem with what Kaepernick did. I just throw that out there, too.

Sure, the oath is to the Constitution, not the flag or the anthem, but the flag and the anthem are symbols of the Constitution, which IS the U.S. That’s what makes what these players are doing so distasteful to most of us who have taken that oath.

History as a way of repeating itself........different genre...same concept

en.wikipedia.org

Has

It's kind of interesting the parallels between the Lennon statement and the Kaepernick sitting alone by the Gatorade. Initially both went unnoticed for a while, then later, after media publicity, blew up. Also both ended up pissing off fans, oops. Not the smartest move.

You also had a lot of people getting caught up in the let's condemn rock and roll, burn Beatle albums, boycott radio stations that play their music....only to once it faded from the media coverage went back and bought the same album again a year later.

In the end the Beatles went on to be a success and make money......the same thing will happen to the NFL and the players involved as long as they can play the game.

I appreciate you posting that link Warrenboy75. I remember the shorter statement - about being more popular than Jesus, but I didn't know (the full text) of the larger statement. It is sad when an entertainer becomes so full of himself that he thinks an entire religion will end. This is a point of contention for me - as I find there to be several entertainment folks who think they are enlightened - when they aren't and when their knowledge of religion is twisted and not well informed.

The disciples were pretty amazing people. They went to incredible lengths to assist in spreading Christianity through the world (as it was in that time). It was much more difficult than we know, and they needed to be incredibly strong to succeed.

There are parallels to the two situations, and I think both were poorly informed views.

Cashman actually your views are very similar to mine.

To me this situation isn't about who is doing what so much as when it is being done.

People have short memories and in the age of the sound bite and twitter account we tend to get the news we want. Look at the Dixie Chicks just a few years ago. I could care less what your political views are or theirs and you have a right to express them but do it when I didn't pay 100 dollars or more of my money to be entertained by your music or your physical talents.

The person who is getting left out in the nonsense is the fan, and in particular not the fan like most of us on this board who can afford a ticket without too much thought but the guy that scrapes together money for a month or longer to take his kid to a game with him and then has to sit through not only the moment of protest but the shit storm that surrounds it. Now picture you were a vet that got wounded or lost a leg/arm over in the Middle East....or that your dad was a POW and his remains were never found in Vietnam.......suddenly it isn't about the rights of the guy on the field or what Trump wants....it's real life and it hits home.

@Warrenboy75 not only was my dad a Vet of the Second World War he earned a Bronze Star, a Purple Heart, plus two Oak Leaf Clusters, he never cared one drop about people protesting by kneeling, during the anthem, he said simply put, if Hitler had won they wouldn't have been able to do that, and he was very proud in his later years about his service. So as you see many veterans have no problem with the protest, OTOH he had a problem with Trump especially after he disrespected Senator John McCain's service record, he passed away before that moron got elected but I know many Veterans, from WWII era, Korean era and Vietnam eras that say, the exact same thing, Trump is the problem not the protesters.

I think we do have similar views regarding this topic. The two situations being discussed are ones that can be highly personal - and can inspire powerful feelings.

There is a time and place for certain things, and I don't agree with using the time when we should be honoring those who have paid the highest price for freedom, as the time for protesting. If they want to promote their own causes, that's fine. But they should do it on their own time.

@Cashman1234 if you would have asked me this last year I might have agreed that there is a time and a place for these protests, but since that idiot got elected there has been a non-stop barrage by him on everybody that has the temerity to disagree with him, he has been a temperamental, immature fool, who delights in stirring the pot and causing divisions in our country, I for one will be glad to be rid of him, the sooner the better.

I know Trump creates strong reactions in many folks, and I can't argue that he's not a polarizing figure. In my opinion, his inflammatory statements caused this kneeling to become a thing again. However, the kneeling NFL players are adults, who need to understand that they are making a protest at the wrong time. I fully believe in freedom of speech, but I think the protest should be done off of the field. They are given a platform to showcase their talents as players, and that's why millions watch on Sunday. We (at least most) tune in to watch football games - not to watch players make odd attempts at protests.

^^^Just my point most reasonable people see this as protesting Trump, not really against Veterans or unpatriotic.

The loudest mouths against the protesters here and elsewhere are the Trump supporters themselves, not veterans or any other groups.

BTW let's not loose sight that this started over a few basketball players declining an invitation to the White House, but our buthurt president picked this fight don't ever forget that.

^^ I think that could be part of the problem. Folks are protesting for the sake of protesting! It makes little sense. An uninformed protest is one of the more foolish things a person can do, as it wastes everyone's time. It's true - there are many folks who would jump at the chance to protest against Trump, but even then, some of those folks wouldn't know the true issue (for their protest).

RE: The cult of the protest.

Taking the knee has always been about race. Except it isn’t. This is one time where SJG is right. It’s not race, it’s class.

I also see that with the feminist protests. Many of them can’t exactly articulate WHAT they are protesting or WHY. I have some ideas about what those reasons really are but the weird part is most no one else does, including the protesters.

The protesters would do everyone some good if they could articulate: here’s the legislation that we want to propose. But no one ever does that. They need to. To the kneelers: what legislation do you want to see? What legislation are you trying to pass, at state or national level?

RE: millionaires protesting

It’s not hypocritical. Foundering Fathers were wealthy landowners. Just because you have resources and adages doesn’t mean you can’t use them to improve things for others. Granted, the protesters could choose something more effective that would AHEM actually, you know, generate results or positive good.

PS: President Trump is a bully and a fat fuck. Somehow athletes can’t speak freely but KKK, neo-nazis, and Confederates can. OK I suppose. We DID declare war on 2 of those three groups, remember that.

Congrats to all here for having a mostly civil discussion with great diversity of opinion and expertise. Not bad for a bunch of ragtag PLs! As for Trump lowering himself into the fray and attacking the kneelers, that my friends is called "appealing to your base". I couldn't care less about the NFL, but I truly dread what's likely coming for college basketball.

@Dominic77 I don't take issue with the players protesting. I take issue with the place of the protest. The players are choosing to protest during a part of a football game when the national anthem is being performed. When I'm at work and directly representing my company, I'm not allowed to make a political statement. I'm at work to do work - and not stage a protest. Do you see that my point isn't with the millionaires protesting?

@Cashman1234 Here's another thought you should consider, as the original fight started with a professional sports team, how do you not think that the venue is appropriate, I mean really if Trump hadn't made it into a big public brouhaha it would have been all blown over after Curry & the Warriors said their piece instead the guy with the biggest platform in the world decided to bash employees of a league unrelated to the original argument, where should they protest if not in the stadium, after the fat guy said that their boss should fire them for going against the fat guy. Let's be real if you want to protest anything, and do it at home, or in your backyard it's not really a protest it's just a rant, this is a real protest and I see it as a protest against divisiveness.

@azdd My take is Trump is a spoiled child and doesn't think through the consequences of his actions, true of megalomaniacs all over, just so happens to have a bunch of people who are fans that believe he has a real master plan, I do not, I know better. truth is his master plan is the same as he's always had, just con everyone that you can call the rest liars, its wearing thin. Appealing to his base my ass, conning his base, more like it.

I am asking because maybe I have the time line incorrect.

Kaepernick lost his starting job to Blaine Gabbert in 2015

On or near the first week of August of 2016 he was shown via photos wearing sox with police as pigs on as part of his practice uniform. Overall he received a negative reaction for doing so.

From here one can read the following: sbnation.com

It was September of this year when Trump made his comments on the NFL ( unless someone can show me different)

So I'm not sure how any of this starts with Trump. Now before anyone goes off about being a Trump supporter I'm not. In a room of 15 people who ran for election Trump would finish 14th in my selection process and I am critical as hell about him tweeting. I didn't care for Obama using social media either but at least in part because of the age difference he understood how to use social media, Trump just rants.

If every time The Donald reached for his IPhone Melania would give him a BJ instead we all would feel better.......I think one of the tasks of the CoS should be to convince her of what she should be responsible for as First Lady.

As for what this is really about......and I'm not necessarily a fan of Ted Cruz either but he has it about right : "I am not a fan of rich, spoiled athletes disrespecting the flag," Cruz said. And Trump realizes many people in the US hold the same sentiment.

There is a time and a place for everything. I simply do not feel based on the content of my earlier comment a game attended by many people, some who the last thing they want to hear, see or even smell is politics should be subjected to the opinion of a entertainer ---be it football, basketball, music concerts, or even a Broadway Play. ( recall the Hamilton incident on Broadway as well)

How about the NFL if anyone is upset can demand a full refund....putting their money where their mouths are so to speak. After all I went to see "A" not hear and see "B".....

How did Billy Joel put it --you can speak your mind but not on my time.

^^^Listen with all of the problems this fat arrogant prick has on his plate more of his own making than not, why the fuck would he start in with a bunch of football players when this was about a basketball team to begin with. BTW in a Felix of fifteen candidates Trump would be 200th on my list Cruz would only be 15th.

Haven't been to a pro football game in years, I guess I'm missing the free entertainment of highly paid athletes tellling the world how life is.

^^^ VinceMichaels, he shoots and he scores for the winning post! I agree. Can't tell me how life should be. Protest on your own time or I will go watch something else.

@twentyfive I'm not taking this off to make it a vendetta against the president. This started before his comments. Kapernick began his protests prior to this recent flare up. The place is incorrect. These players are choosing to protest at a place where they represent more than just themselves. The players have fame and followers - and they could begin a grass roots effort to make a change away from the football games on Sunday. They chose not to do that - and that is not the place for it.

I don't think the president should have made the comments he made either. But the players were already protesting -

@cashman1234. It's not a vendetta against the president a few were doing the protesting before but he turned them all against him by his mean spirited remarks and it is a disgrace that the President of these United States can't see his way clear to embrace all Americans I'm half drunk and I don't think I should post anymore tonight.

"I believe its coming across as the epitome as stupidity to most of America. Shit, the NFL was a major symbol of patriotism and standing for the anthem is a show of unity for our country despite ideological differences."

You forget most of America IS stupid. So of course they don't understand what's going on

Fucking politics ruin everything, keep it the fuck out of sports. Sports is one of the few things that everyone can enjoy but assholes ruin everything and that is why we can't have nice things.

People need to stop trying to win the butt hurt olympics, Leftists seem to have had it locked down, but the Righties are starting to make a play for it. I don't like what they are doing, I have a lot of good friends who are ex-military and I know how they feel about it. but I don't give a fuck what a bunch of professional athletes, hollywood celebrities, or rich coddled musicians say either way at the end of they day they just want attention.