OT: What's wrong with being middle-class?

Here's the thing. There's a range. Depending on the scale, a household could be clearing $200K a year gross salary and still be considered middle class. On some scales $300K is still middle class (basically anything below the top 1%). There is a difference between being at the bottom of the range and the top of the range.

One crux of the argument is what is middle class? How to you define it and what is buy you or what does it afford you? middle class seems to be a very wide range, IMO. So that makes having the debate hard to do and people end up debating different things.

I think once you define that, then we can have the debate.

--

The wide strata bands of income change things a lot and tell you what the "struggles" are. But at least you are defining a narrow band at or near roughly $100K. One date point. I make nowhere near $100K. So am I middle class for your debate or not? For the record I make $63K and I feel like most days, even though my (stay at home) wife and I live modestly, I struggle to just work and pay bills, and that's just about it. Or are my expenses out of line? Or do I have an income problem? Those are serious questions. You guys are pretty smart and successful so I value your opinions (even Mersault, whom I seem to have driven off).

Supposedly the talk about the middle class not getting a real pay increase in over a decade or two I probably belong to that group. We work hard, out in long hours on occasion just because we are told we need to and those who were making less than 43k a year and myself were not getting any overtime pay until recently with a new law. I make more than 43k a year so I can still work very long hours to reduce my pay down to the minimum wage but really prefer not to.

Anyway we've been working hard for years and the pay increases I get when I get them are the inflation rate or less. Been that way for years.

Where I don't fall into the same group is that I know how to manage my expenses and save money. No kids, living beneath my means. I feel rich in comparison to my older brother who had a six figure salary but extremely bad wife and kids as far as his monetary happiness and happy retirement went. He declared bankruptcy and his wife still managed to run up thousands more in credit card debt. I wouldn't wish that on anyone but my worst enemies.
She was extremely stupid in managing finances. Just my opinion.

I make a little bit more than $100k. I can't imagine "living" on less. I know I did, and it was a miserable experience.

The big deal is all the unnecessary sacrifices one has to make, and I'm not just talking about renting a movie vs going to the theater. The middle class life is a life robbed of truly living (well thriving) because so much time is devoted to work, worry, and traffic.

The Economists don't call it the working poor for nothing. It's modern day slavery, no physical whips and chains, but we are hit with the highest tax burden, county and city fees.

And yes I think it's bullshit I have to decide whether I can have a Netflix account and still be able to afford a gym membership, and strippers keep me sane, so now I have to compromise mental health?

There's not a damn thing anyone has done (save Elon Musk and the like) to have earned billions or even millions a year.

$50k is slavery
$100k is poverty
$250 now we a talking a respectable decent living

Mr. Tiberon? What's your income and what's your monthly surplus? Do you find even with $43K, in sharkhunter's example, that you'd be able to save money in savings (or to invest) and still not live paycheck to paycheck? I am genuinely curious. I'm pretty sure I'm doing *something* the hard way and could break out of my current situation. Do you believe in the "bootstrap yourself protestant work ethic" thing? Is that the real deal? I'd like to improve my current situation. Good thread, BTW. I'm genuinely curious for any insight you might provide.

It's not about how much you make, but how much you save. Or more importantly, how much and how well you invest it.

Hi StripFighter. I get that. It sounds like I need to reduce expenses even further so I can save, then. I thought I was getting ahead, but every year (or a couple times a year) it's the same thing: extra (string of) car repair(s), medical (deductible/co-insurance) costs,and/or a big home repair that drains what little saved money I have.

Reduce reduce reduce...ya answer to all financial problems. Fuck that I work to live not live to work. I'm a human being, and some point you can't squeeze blood from a turnip and feel dignified, self respect. It's high time the working class made a fair wage.

I'm not maxing out savings in my 401k. I am getting the full company match which was cut out this year. Cheapskates making their bottom line look better at my expense even though they say they beat expectations. I am maxing out my Roth IRA savings and contributing to a taxable savings account. I like the flexibility of being able to invest in whatever I want and put in buy and sell orders in the extended hours which is usually before and after work. I look at it at lunch sometimes. I wasn't planning on growing and continuing to contribute to a taxable account in addition to the other two. Oh also maxing out a health savings account too. I probably should up the percentage in my 401k. I always thought I could grow my money outside my 401k faster than inside with all the restrictions. They think everyone is stupid and that no one should be able to beat market averages. Etc, etc.

GACA says "I make a little bit more than $100k. I can't imagine "living" on less. I know I did, and it was a miserable experience"

that's good for you, but very few ppl make that much, regardless of their education or whatever

you describing living on less than 100k a year as a "miserable experience" shocks me. But I guess you've just gotten use to it. Because that's more than enough to live very comfortably on---especially since you're a single dude

@Dominic77 My income is currently $30K, and after everything is paid for, I find I save money quite easily. My job is fresh so I plan to save around $10K by the end of my first work year. And it doesn't seem to be a real problem for me. And I live in NYC (not Manhattan per se) so it's not like my rent is $300 a month either. Once I get my second job like I WANT to (I could just get a better job and I will, but even so, I like working and 2 jobs plus free lance is pretty good money) and I have very few recurring bills outside my food, shelter and transportation. I chose the most inexpensive phone plan and since I do computers, I know how to make it work to my advantage (the only thing out of my hands is actual calls and texing) and I don't watch TV, only have internet and have an inexpensive chain gym membership for under $30 a month. And I haven't lived paycheck to paycheck in....ever. I know my expenses are meager and may be considered living below my means, but I get most fun out of life doing things that don't cost much. Reading, going outside and watching things....for free.And since I work, I just can't take vacation whenever so I don't have to worry about deliberately saving money for vacation since when it's vacation time, it's already there.

So, maybe it's because I'm not married but I live in NY with a $30K job and still don't live paycheck to paycheck. That an I have allergies so I can't visit many restaurants like I'd want to. Though cooking is fun by itself.

And I'll start investing once I INVEST some time into understanding how that science works.

I know I keep posting sorry, I just wanted to clarify that my MAIN job is $30K

Congratulations , I didn't know anyone could live in an expensive place like New York City on 30k and save money too.

Thanks, GoVikings. Many friends and family who make $28,000 or less, make do by lowering housing or transportation costs. Some go without having a car (walk to work). Many share living arrangement with family or friends (or outright have a roommate). I'd rather not go back to the days of not having a car (it's hard to be flexible enough to commute to most jobs without a car or employers are hesitant -- but, yes, not impossible). I would definitely rather not go back to having roommates. That just feels like failure (once you've lived on your own).

Here's some US Gov't census info:
the 50 percentile mark is
$53,657
That seems more like the "middle class" household income we should be debating. No? Disagree?
Page: 39.of.80
https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Censu…

Thanks, Tiburon. I just saw your recent posts just now. No harm in multiple posts! I am seriously trying to figure out where I am going wrong! I feel like I should be doing better in life. Currently my savings rate (except for $800 /yr into my HSA) is sadly zero. I need to change that. :)

My rent is $1200, my food expenses I force to keep under $200 (generally around $195) and transportation is (until I get that car that I REALLY want) $116.5 monthly. Mind you that rent price is pretty average though TECHNICALLY it's lower if yo don't count the utilities that the landlords these days make you pay. I had to haggle for that btw. Thus why I asked this question

I'm in LA, and I make a little over 100K. I couldn't imagine living in LA making under 100K unless you're living in the bad spots. It's so fucking expensive over here.

Mr. Tiburon. You have some crazy low expenses there. You should be proud. It sounds like you look at your expenses the way foreign born immigrant would -- just buy only the shit you need. Bravo.

Historically though, at least in the US, some of the middle class tenets have been home ownership and vacations (bi-annually is probably a realistic compromise) along with saving for retirement (and probably at least one car). At least, that is the middle class life most would like to strive to live. Also health care is the elephant in the room in many budgets. For the last couple years, it has been the single biggest line item in my budget for the wife and I -- eclipsing even the mortgage payment, taxes, or transportation as our single biggest expense.

I suppose for that matter, I should dump the wife too and just pay for HJs from strippers or AMPs. Far cheaper, right? (that's sarcasm). ;)

It's tough out there!

Shit

"There's not a damn thing anyone has done (save Elon Musk and the like) to have earned billions or even millions a year."
+1000

Shit some more

Hey Dom,
Not a financial advisor, but focus on reducing your expenses and credit cards or anything w/crazy high interest. Tiburon's got the right idea about avoid eating out, and learning to cook if you(or wife) haven't already. It's amazing how simple it is once you get into it, not to mention fun(IMO), and much healthier. For some there might be an initial burden for cost of equipment and stocking ingredients, but really many are spending the same amount on eating out in a week or two. As far as investing, understand the difference between investing and speculating (basically long-term vs short-term) and max out your 401k and roth IRA.

As far as the middle class struggling, I agree that healthcare is one of the big problems especially with premiums, deductibles, AND co-payments going up with salary stagnating, net outcome is you're making less than the year before.

This is my simple rule of thumb of living. My saving goal is around $23000, since I am single. That is $17500 for my 401k contribution (which is pre-tax) and then $5500 for my Roth IRA contribution (which is post-tax). So it is not really $23000 because of the tax difference. Once I set that aside, I just need an emergency fund in my saving account. Then I can spend everything else on entertainment.

We cook all but 2 meals a week from scratch. All of them. We eat out once a week and get a to-go order once a week to give my wife a rest from cooking. The grocery bill is $300-400 month (she thinks we spend 200-300, but there are always incidentals). I learned to cook at age 5 and starting baking at age 7. So I know how to cook.I've been cooking more at home starting last week (1) to take the load off of the wife and (2) we have a BIG FIGHT over serving sizes since she's cooking OMGXBOXHUGE portions meals, so she feels better when she eats, and I've been throwing away food from my plates (or freezing to take to work for my lunches) and she's been gaining weight (unfortunately). So we're on the mend there. But we've been scratch cooking since Aug 2008 hardcore. I've also been getting her on more meatless dinners and more beans and non-meat proteins -- she's coming around there - meatless what hard for her to understand as she hates beans -- we're improving. The grocery bill is mostly from Marc's grocer (a local deep discounts grocery store) and some other items from the local Italian grocery store (some meats, eggs, veg and fruits -- since they are higher quality $2.39 for a dozen cage free eggs, for example -- high moisture content eggs). I have a fully stocked kitchen including appliances, pots, pans, baking dishes, knives, cutting boards. I could stand to get a chest or 2nd freezer though. I need that to keep MORE sale items in bulk.

So we really only eat out (take out, really) once or twice a week to keep our sanity. But maybe that is even a luxury. I'm willing to bend there. The wife's at her wits end, so it needs to be me keeping up the slack. I can do that. I'm tough.

Maxing out the 401k and IRA will be tough. Right now I'm at zero and would need to re-evaluate the budget to even attempt that. By maxing out, do you need 4-8 % (where ever the company match ends)? Or do you mean the full 25% they allow?

I need to give up drinking liquor to cope. Full stop. I can't afford TWO vices. So it's either liquor or topless clubs. I choose the naked women. (the problem there, and it's not really a problem, is I get very 'difficult' or angry to live with when I don't have 1-2 drinks per day, meaning I'm getting an alcohol dependency. The wife would rather me buy liquor (and numb it away) than deal with me since it's the 'easy' solution. I need to stop.

The wife and I had some talks earlier today after dinner. She said if I took care of things better (income and expenses plus some other issues we have with me slacking) she said I could enjoy even more freedoms and benefits. She basically said she'd look the other way if I'd want to bang women. That's an odd discussion for a married couple, but she and I are both tired of us spinning our wheels in the mundane middle class existence. She's a better life and she's open to suggestions to motivate me at this point. So I'm at a low point looking to craw my way out.

I have no credit card debt. So CC since AMEX took away my CC in 2014 and no VISA since that was taken away in 2012. I have a 525-535 credit score. So I'm a cash man only now. I have been for a while. The mortgage is $850/mo and my last student loan from my failed college attempt 18 years ago is at $144 balance and is 60 days late. I should be able to pay that off next month. Then I will be debt free except the local taxes I owe from last quarter.

I do have a $11/mo planet fitness membership and I do cardio and lift weights at 5AM before heading to work by 7AM. I used to do $100/mo for both of us to use the luxury gym at the local hospital, but that was a luxury. So we got rid of it.

I should probably figure out my budget and post it online here for you guys to help pick apart. I mean, if I can post my penis length and what type I lube I use, surely I'm past the point of feeling embarrassed by posting person & private information online, lol. Thanks for all the help guys.

To Dominic77: Your question about 401k tells me you don't understand it. Its annual contribution limit is a fixed amount, depending on your age and martial status. I am in my 30s and single. My annual limit is $17500. It is not a percentage of my salary.

Many people, including my friends, just contribute 3-6% to get the employer's match. This is usually NOT close enough to hit the annual limit.

Many Americans believe in upward mobility, a dream that appears to be fading. If you can reconcile keeping a car after it's paid for, taking a vacation without using plastic and sending your kids to an accredited, but not big name, college, you might be able to accept the limits of middle class life with no real increase in net disposable income. That's not an exciting way to live, but, with realistic financial management, it's survivable--barely. It's depressing for many of us to see that things will never get better and as the cost of everything keeps going up, we are on a treadmill.

I used to make $15K-$20K every year and was saving and going to strip clubs just fine

I know make $40K-$50K depending on bonuses and overtime and steal live like I'm in my $15K budget witch means I'm saving a fuck load


I agree it's not how much you make but how much you save


Kinda like the having a small dick but steel able to fuck with the best of them

I'm going to try and say this without being redundant but forgive me if I do

Once you figure out that being rich is meaningless and as futile as chasing the wind you will also notice going without makes having things more precious.

Riches gives us stake dinner ever night yes but riches like this robs us if the true Joy of that stake dinner. It takes going without to have the gift of true enjoyment

And the same goes for pussy and everything else under the sun

Balance is more important than riches

Riches like poverty is unbalanced

Where you live is as much of a factor in how much it takes to live comfortably as anything. I make a little over $50k/year + occasional bonuses and that is plenty for me as a single guy in my 30s living in a rural area east of cincinnati. However, I know that $50k would be much less comfortable in a lot of cities.
While I'm not maxing out my 401k I am putting in 10% of my income with my employer matching 7.5%. I also put 5% into our employee stock plan.
I paid off my car last November but I still budget the same $300 I was paying to save for a new car sometime next year. Luckily I am healthy so medical is not much of an expense beyond insurance (which is mostly covered by my employer) and the occasional copay.
This still leaves me a little bit to put into my savings each paycheck so that I have at least a year worth of expenses in my savings account just in case.
Whenever I get a bonus that's exactly what I treat it as. Since my bills are already covered by my salary, any bonuses go toward entertainment and vacations. My vacation usually consists of renting a spot at a campground somewhere so that leaves the rest for entertainment (aka strippers).

Monthly Budget
$600 mortgage
$300 car
$300 insurance (car/medical/dental)
$200 groceries
$200 student loans
$200 fuel
$150 utilities (electric water trash)
$65 cell phone
$50 internet
$30 TV (netflix hulu amazon prime)
_____________________
$2095 Total Monthly Expenses

@whodey

You are doing well if you're only spending $200 per month on groceries. I'm a single guy too, and I typically spend about $85-$100 per week on groceries and I eat a fair number of meals out.

I admit to not be a wise shopper. I obviously need to learn.

I've been middle class all my life. I'm now retired living on my Social Security. I had a good job making $60,000 plus for several years so my SS check is quite decent. I've been tight with money most of my life, I blew a lot of it on strip clubs, but that's fine with me. I love looking and interacting with naked, gorgeous women. I'm fighting a battle to regain the upper hand with my finances. My medical conditions changed my life, drastically, but that's OK. That's life, and I'm glad to be on the planet still. I died, guys and gals, nothing to sneeze at. I look at life a lot differently and I truly hope all of us survive with rising prices, government criminality and ineptitude. I see a lot of success here, Tiburon, you are doing great in NYC with the cost of living, California aint' cheap either unless you live in the boonies. I drive an 18 year old Vette. It's sweet, it has low miles and it's fun !! Balance is important, you are right, juice. I'm balancing up here on the tight rope and I like what I see up here. Kudos, guys and gals, Never, never, ever give up.

I admire those who live within their income, no matter how large or small. I remember the days when I was young and supported a family with a small income. It was hard. But I never had any signifiant debt except for a home mortgage. When I got a better job, I maxed out my 401-K and invested what I could. Now in retirement, I can waste my money on world travel and domestic strippers.

so what it really comes down to is how well people spend their money, and whether they're single or have a family. Essentially, a lot of people are bad with money. Trying to live above their means. While the government is excessive with taxes a lot of people sounds like a bunch of people just need to learn how resist the impulse of buying a currently useless 4K TV. At least that's how it looks to me.

OR stop wasting so much credit on garbage

Sorry I'm not drinking the Kool-aid. "Above their means"?

That's just bullshit lone the elite pass on to the masses as if living a life where you have enough not to stress, enjoy a healthy wellbeing is some how greedy and irresponsible on the part of the individual earning a slave wage. Fuck that

And quite honestly, it breaks my heart to hear so many people who honestly believe that they deserve to suffer from low wages.

The company you work for is making 10x as much as they pay you from your work. And somehow we are supposed to believe that a few top executives deserve a higher pay scale because they make asinine decisions all day, they don't produce shit. Just make decisions that make your work day more miserable. Fuck that. It's feudalism at its peak.

No sir. My life is worth more. My life has no price tag. You want my effort you have to pay for it. Call me a stripper, but I'm worth more than $20/hr I'm worth more than $30/hr. I'd rather collect a welfare check for that welfare pay.

And we, the masses are always gonna get chump change until we stand up (like the Europeans ) and demand the respectability we deserve.

Don't settle taking crumbs when you, your efforts, are baking the whole dn cake

We talk about stripper self esteem? At least they know their worth $7 a minute (assuming $20 a dance and a dance is approximately 3 minutes )

Leaving above means? SMH

And anyone who believes they deserve the low wages can't say shit about strippers

Jesus Christ people, have a little self respect. Damn!

Ya it's the system we were born into, doesn't make it right, how many were born into slavery for centuries before we righted that wrong?

I'm not suffering my friend

Mo head you crack me up on the food bill

I suffer on that one as well. I try $200 for myself a month but usually hit $300-$400 a month

If I didn't watch myself I could easily hit $600 but I work very hard to keep it basically $350 give or take a good or bad month

GACA Amen brother Amen

Get us our Just Compensation

Money, wealth and materialism is nothing but an illusion my friends. It's a tool used to control all of us

Money has the power we give it. In of itself it is worthless

We should stop seeking worldly sucurates but heavenly riches

Does not the birds eat and the grass grow ?

Let's trust the almighty and his strength in providing for us rather than trusting in our self's and failures

Would you really sell your soul to gain the world, riches and an easy life for everlasting damnation or non existent ?

Sell all you have and give it to the poor, the orphan, the widow the elderly and follow the Lord Jesus Christ

Heaven and everlasting life is to gain.

Do you thirst for Justice ? Then come and drink from the lords everlasting fountain of waters and thirst no more

Repent from all sinfulness and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ that the father raised him from the dead and that he died for your sinfulness

Why bother? Everybody is going to do what they want anyway.

Amen brother Meat

I'm not sure whether your high or serious gaca! Are you on dat stuff cocaine is one helluva drug. Because I can't understand what you saying brother

I mean, I see what GACA is saying. Here's some of the executives at my company:

owner, chairman:
$500K base plus $4.1MM - 4.8MM bonus (never less that $1MM bonus)
CEO and CFO:
$398K plus $400K - 500K bonus
other execs:
$180K or $280K base plus $25K - $312K bonus

And their kids are employed with roughly the following salary (declared in the 10K filing) (nepotism much?)
$120K plus $25K bonus

--
I thought there were more $350K types on this board. Good to see that there are people with middle class incomes.

^ the CEO and CFO are two different guys (and not one guy with two titles). I wasn't clear.

So how do you get that job?

No I'm not high. I very passionate about income "fairness". Should CEO get paid more, sure, but 30x more than the average worker when they don't do 30x more work? You fckn kidding me!!!

Ya, I make a six figure salary, I don't call that fortunate I call that fckn finally!!!

We ate not bees in a hive serving a singular purpose of working for the Queen Bee. No we are just as human as the CEO's of the world who did nothing more than have the right parent and be born in the right social networks (CEO's are rarely business entrepreneurs and rarely own the business they are "leading" don't let silicon start ups fool you)

So ya, when I see a guy who was drinking the same beer in college I was, fucking around @ the same parties, then tell me witha straight face he's where he's at because he worked harder, fuck you!!!

Mexican work hard picking fruit mowing lawn and whatever. You didn't do a goddam thing other than understand the society of business, play golf with your buddies and swap money over wine and cheese. Fuck you!!!

Your analyst, customer service rep, some managers...these are the people whose effort allows you to live high on the hog, their hard work, and while you're getting millions I am to feel lucky, lucky?! To be making a Lil more than 3% of what you take home? Again ..FUCK YOU!!!!

Somebody has extra time on their hands!

^^^actually the point is I don't have extra time, so what little time I have and use it to rant means that it's a big deal

The thing about C-level positions isn't that they make more than us, but that they don't bear the responsibility that their position and salary entails. When their company fails they still get paid they're bonuses and still get to keep their jobs, whereas those below them lose theirs. It's a violation of the unspoken social contract where as the leader if you are given the all the benefits consequently you then carry the burden of the responsibilities. And hence, if your company fails you should be first on the chopping block.

But that's not the way it works. The culture of most companies is to make sacrifice the people to make the numbers work, as opposed to how it should work: sacrifice the numbers (your/CEO benefits/salary) to ensure the people can work.

Middle-Class is used both ways, and you will find a variety of views. But it is usually presented as what this country is supposed to be fighting for. And in a way this is right.

But you will also see it presented as a negative. Much of this seems to come from France, and they say Bourgeoisies, which literally means brick house.

I think the most important thing to understand is that it is not really an income range. It is more a way of thinking, an identity. And it is a reactionary defensive identity.

Excellent video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEk1JAky…

SJG

:)

I could post a dissertation on what makes a CEO worth a million dollars, but I'm trying to minimize flame wars now that I've ignored the trolls and lovers.
Let me paraphrase a meme that has been making the rounds on face book lately. What would you do if you had two cows? Drink the milk? Sell or donate one to your cow-less neighbor? A CEO will sell one cow and buy a bull. Breed a herd of cows. Sell milk and meat to the whole town. Hire people to work for him. Sell more milk and meat. Build a farm. Hire more people and grow the herd. Build a ranch. Hire more people, grow several herds. Now the town attracts a slaughterhouse, a distribution center and warehouse developer, a rail hub, now you get Wal-mart and a McDonald's and your town is the map.
A true CEO is a rain maker. He creates jobs even for people whom he does not employ directly. That makes him worth a million dollars.

gammanu, that's instructive and useful, really. If you ever want to post that full length dissertation, please do. I would actually like to read it.

gammanu95, Many people are just never going to be able to do any of the sorts of things you describe. Also, many guys are married. Sorry, but I think that really distorts things.

Also, most of the fortunes made nowadays seem to be just examples of State Capitalism. One way or another, they get the government on their side, manipulating things. This is the only reason their ventures work.

And then also consider, it has been over a hundred years since our economy was production limited, by things like say producing milk or meat. So someone who tries what you are describing is not going to have much of a chance.

Most of the high tech startups are simply gambits for control of compatibility standards, or now more and more, just consumer marketing gimmicks.

A very highly interconnected world, where things are not as they appear.

SJG

Metallica - Enter Sandman [Official Music Video]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD-E-LDc…