OT: This shit is getting out of control

Obviously there are lots of sides to it- but this current policy of "shoot to kill' whenever the cop feels "threatened" is leading to too many unnecessary deaths.

It is real bad, almost a war already

http://www.democracynow.org/2016/7/7/you…

SJG

http://doxyspotting.com/?p=97401

Police must need more training. Either they need to instruct people to keep their hands in the air or one the steering wheel and make it clear not to reach for anything or stop asking for driver's license and registration.

If the police officer asked for this, he should be convicted of murder and at least serve a life sentence. A guy that is going to shoot won't announce that he has a gun, stupid cop. That's what someone registered to carry will announce.

Thanks for posting though. If I ever get pulled over again, I know to tell the officer I need to reach into my back pocket to get my license and registration and ask if that's ok. I think some of these cops are using drugs or steroids and are super hyped up on something. It's no excuse to start shooting without seeing a gun being drawn.

Unfortunately things are already out of control in my opinion. I believe the last time I got pulled over, I felt like I was a wanted criminal just escaped from jail with one officer yelling "put your hands on the steering wheel" and 3 or 4 other not uniformed people shining lights in my car like it was a swat team. My offense? They claimed I swerved erratically. The officer questioning me said I sounded a bit alarmed or whatever he said. I think most people would if a car gunned their engine and was chasing after them in the dark. I actually felt somewhat relieved when I saw blue lights turn on when they caught up to me. I thought maybe it was road rage. Probably was I thought at the time. Someone almost turned into my lane hitting my car, almost. I swerved to avoid my car getting hit. Then I was in the turn lane. A car in front of me in the other lane was on the edge of my lane but didn't signal so I didn't slow down to let them in front of me. I would have if they had signaled to turn left but they did not. I suspected road rage when they missed their turn. I wasn't clear what they intended to do, they didn't turn on their stupid turn signal. I think it was undercover cops or an undercover swat team thinking they were going to teach me lesson. That was totally out of control as well. I got let go with a verbal warning.

One officer even said he smelled alcohol. I told him he must be smelling things because I hadn't had a drink in over a week.

On the plus side, I made the last incident cost them. I was giving to some police charity thing that kept calling me every year. After that when they called, I told them to put me on a do not call list. Ordinary citizens should feel free to travel around if they aren't breaking the law without fear of police harassment or imprisonment.

I blame Bush, Obama, and now Hillary too. lol. I might have to start blaming Trump if the election turns up different than I expect and all this crap continues with no changes.

I'm not black obviously - but I live in a mostly working class Hispanic community w/ many people that have come form Cuba and don't know their rights and are just struggling to make it day to day - the cops often push around, intimidate and disrespect these folks.

I have family an hour north in Boca Raton which is a well to do community and I go up there often- the treatment from the cops there is night and day compared to where I live - in Boca Raton the cops treat you as a customer and are extremely respectful and polite when dealing w/ you - it came as a shock to me how different it was from what I was used to.

There are two sides to every story. If I do have a bias it is generally with Law Enforcement. I don't like to jump into making an immediate opinion based on what the media wants us to see. I've seen too often where it was terribly skewed (Trayvon Martin, Baltimore,...) but I agree that there are way too many of these incidents.

Yeah - unfortunately there isn't video of the whole incident and what may have transpired prior - but time and time again either the victim was unarmed or never shot nor pointed his weapon if it was on his person (in previous cases).

This one in Minnesota looks pretty bad but who knows what info might come out.

The guy in Louisiana... My understanding is he was a felon illegally carrying a firearm, for the time being I'll side with the police on that one.

It will take fucked up black cops killing white people before everyone realizes this is wrong, I guess

It appears to me cops are trained to "when in doubt shoot to kill" - kinda comes across as if there is any doubt better them than you - and this when in doubt shoot to kill mindset is proving to not be the way to go when so much (lives) is at stake.

Was there a video I missed? I just saw a video of the girlfriend talking after the fact, was there video of the actual shooting?

^ no - AFAIK

I'm trying to wait for the facts to come in -- but the fact that the police body cameras became "dislodged" (according to police) seems suspicious.

*referring to the Alton Sterling shooting.

I never believe these cops lives are in real danger when they out number the perp(it was a 2 on 1 in baton rouge). But all they have to say is their life was in danger and idiots like jester and flagooner believe whatever they say without question.

But they will put themselves in real danger to save somebody white...

How about a white man?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f2b_14336…

On the otherhand, sometimes ammo is needed

www.liveleak.com/view?i=e2d_1431908949

While idiots like Chessmaster just assume the guy was a harmless innocent victim trying to make a living selling CD's. The gun was planted right?

To each their own as we always say around here - no one has all the facts & everyone is entitled to their opinion & others entitled to disagree w/ them - but name calling IMO is out of place just b/c you don't share someone else's POV.

My statement is not meant towards anyone in particular

You don't hear about the white people being shot by cops it's not good for the media.

As a black man, I'm sick of this shit. I'm sick of seeing pics and vids of bloodied and shot dead black men with police standing around them. I'm just as sick of the goddamn apologists who can dare take a look at one of those videos of black men being killed and immediately begin to try to rationalize why it's not a big deal, or why there's more to the story or why he probably deserved what he got.

This nation has hundreds of years of history of blacks being enslaved, suppressed and murdered unjustly, and now we're getting a horrifying front row seat to them getting killed by the folks who swore to protect them. If you can't for one second pull your head out of your willfully ignorant ass to see that there is a crystal clear correlation between this nation's historical penchant for violence against blacks and the police killings going on today, then you are a part of the goddamn problem and perpetuation if these atrocities.

^^^^^ !!!

SJG

It's insane. The Baton Rouge one is cold blooded murder. They even confiscated the convenience store security footage to attempt a cover up.

Sorry, the penalty for illegal carry isn't execution. You're a cop, you've got him on the ground, disarm him, idiot.

We do need more facts about the Minnesota one. It sounds pretty bad on paper though, and he clearly wasn't some hood constantly in trouble with the law. That could have been any of us, even white folks.

^^^^^ !!!

SJG

I wish everyone would just wait until all the facts come out before rushing to judgment. There are three sides to every story: the victims side of it, the cops side of it, and what actually happened (something in between).

I find it very odd that this woman was so calm after her boyfriend was shot. Why was her voice so calm? Why did she call the officer that shot him sir? Why wasn't she comforting her boyfriend as he lay there dying?

She claims he was told the police he had a gun and a license for it and the cop told him to get his license and then he got shot for no reason. That's what she is saying but there's no proof so far that's how it happened. It's her word against theirs.

She said he put his hands up like he was told and got shot. For all we know he had his gun is his hand while he was putting his hands up. Even if you have no intention of shooting you don't put your hands up when you are holding a gun.

She lives in a battlefield, she has learned to keep calm and rational. That video was the reason she got to sit there that long. The cops were afraid to interdict her because that would make it look like they were trying to cover up. Rarely do you get a video this close to the killing.

SJG

Yea it's really fuckin ridiculous these days just too many incidents for it to all be a coincidence the one in Minnesota was straight-up murder in my opinion

I stand by what I said.

Minnesota looks bad, it sounds like to me the cop heard the guy say gun and freaked out.

Louisiana is a different story. The guy was illegally armed and had apparently brandished it at someone which precipitated the event. I'll give the cops the benefit until we get more information.

Michael Brown was a sweet innocent kid who wouldn't hurt anyone, he put his hands up. Remember that bullshit?

@footballguy,

She was told to keep her hands in plain view by the cop. I too was shocked she remained so calm.

I really think what happened is the cop asked for ID, he reached for ID as he told the cop that he was armed and the cop freaked out. Not cold blooded murder but certainly inexcusable.

Will telling yourself that possible narrative first help you sleep better at night, @footballguy? Is it that much more comfortable for you to want to believe the black guy with a permit to carry and his 4yr old in th backseat was a thug out to kill the police officer than believing the police officer was being irrationally jumpy and scared at the simple thought of having to interact with a black man?

How sad.

I'm glad you standby what you said Jester. If you had any sort of rational thought process where committing a crime or acting suspicious isn't grounds for getting killed, than I'd imagine you'd have a hard time living with yourself. Good thing you don't, huh?

So many of these highly questionable killings of black men. There is something seriously wrong.

SJG

Tijuana
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jordanbste…

The Egyptian Mystery Origins of Islam, Judaism & Christianity
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoFGJRYQ…

A revolution may be in order.

@a21985 No, it doesn't. I'm not at all saying that the guy deserves to die or was going to shoot the cop. I think jester said it best, he was probably reaching for his license as he was saying he was carrying a licensed firearm and the cop freaked out.

I'm just trying to see this from both the cops and the victims point of view. I just don't like that as a country we are so quick to rush to judgement based on a video of the aftermath of the shooting.

My biggest problem with the Michael Brown controversy was how the media handled it. The picture of him that they showed 99% of the time was the picture of him sitting in a chair with headphones on. He looked like an average sized kid. But there were other pictures out there of him standing up and it gave you a sense of how big and strong he was, especially for a 14 year old kid. He looked like he could have been 20. But the media focused on the other pick because it made him look harmless.

This is true, but I don't think my friend Dougster is being completely serious. My own interest in revolution has more to do with the kinds of child abuse and exploitation which we call the middle-class family, and then with all the ways that Capitalism depends on that, and then how this connect to the mental health system and a resurgence of the eugenics movement.

But when it comes to this sort of racially influenced police violence, the problem and what needs to be done are much more simple.

SJG

Jersey Girl
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGXxDvqd…

Tijuana
http://www.losangelespress.org/wp-conten…

I'm just trying to say, try to look at it from the cops point of view. I'm not saying what he did was right. But they put themselves in dangerous situations and often times have less than a second to decide how to react. Just hesitating less than a second can be the difference between the cop getting shot or defending themselves. Again, im not defending the cop. I just hate how if someone doesn't agree with someone else on this topic that person is automatically a racist and an idiot.

There will probably be a situation sometime where a guy will have a gun and a cop will hesitate to shoot because he's afraid he will go to jail, then the cop will get shot and more people could end up getting shot as a result. Then everyone will blame the cop for not taking action faster. It's a lose lose situation.

W.r.t. her remaining calm, I would think she thought she had no choice; after the victim was laying there injured & dying the cop was still pinting his gun & in seemingly freak-out mode; reasonable to thin if she would have acted up she may have felt she would get shot too, and personally I don't blaim her if she felt that way considering rhe apparent state of mind of the officer & the fact he was still pointing his gun at them - additionally it's safe ro assume many black people have often had a different experience w.r.t. the police than most white people have had, meaning you have to be extra careful as to how you act lest "you get it".

Yes, we always have an incomplete picture. Even the video does not make it absolute.

Okay, but look at how often these highly suspect killings of black men are occurring. I'm not saying it is deliberate, but there is something seriously wrong with the training and policies of police.

SJG

Tijuana, one guy took most of these great street girl pics
https://www.flickr.com/photos/navymailma…

This is a shame and a terrible tragedy, President Obama said the right thing earlier, it is not a black issue or a white issue it is an issue for every decent minded American citizen, my heart goes out to those family members who have to deal with this no one can be happy when things like this happen and they happen too often.

^^^^^^^^ twentyfive +10

SJG

Tijuana
https://www.flickr.com/photos/navymailma…

@Footballguy - This goes back to me and so many others being fed up. You jump to rationalize the situation by trying to see from both sides. How about you start off by being sad/dissapointed/angry that a young man lost their life. That's what we mean by black lives matter. It doesn't mean other lives don't, it means that so many of you give off the impression that you'd rather look for justification for his death rather than first acknowledging he indeed lost his life.

As for pictures of him not looking like a hulking black monster who would tear a white authority to shreds, don't give me that shit. He was a fucking human being first before he was a media figure who lost his life during a controversial and disputed encounter with police. The picture used shouldn't fit any narrative you or anyone else would prefer to paint of him. Besides, if the Stanford rapist gets to have his picture in the media be his graduation or swim meet picture, why can't these black men have their pictures be of them being human beings?

I mean, do you guys even hear yourself right now? You may not intend to sound so ignorant, but frankly it's nauseating to me and the same old shit.

Not just these killings but the entire racial effect of the criminal justice system is by intent.

https://www.amazon.ca/New-Jim-Crow-Miche…

We have a much higher degree of law and order than we did decades ago. But we got here without solving any of the economic problems which cause crime, we got it just by hiring more cops and by learning how to get around most of the reforms of the Earl Warren Court.

And yes, it was Bill and Hillary, but it was also Reagan and Bush and drug war.

SJG

Tijuana
https://www.flickr.com/photos/navymailma…

Jersey Girl
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGXxDvqd…

@a21985 I do feel very bad for the man that was shot and his family, obviously he didn't deserve to die. And shooting someone definitely should be the absolute last resort for a cop. It is a shame that this time of this does seem to be happening more and more and something needs to be done to stop it. Im not trying to take one side or the other. Why isn't it possible for me to feel bad for the guy that was shot but also want to wait for more information to come out before tearing into the cop. What's the harm in waiting for the facts? But seriously, thank you for having a rational conversation about this. I respect your opinion.



I do think that body cameras are probably the only thing that is going to help keep this from happening again. But even then it is still dependent on the video being a good angle and showing everything.

Football guy, you aren't getting what is being said to you. Two young men are dead nothing that anybody can do will bring them back to their families, who probably loved them same as your family does of you. The police officers involved will have their day in court, no matter the outcome those young guys are still dead. This needs to stop I am not sure how but it has to end. what ever crimes might have been committed and I am not saying any were, the punishment is to be decided by a court of law not a police officer, maybe it is time to stop the police from having the authority to use any means necessary, and start training them how to mediate issues, and possibly issue tranquilizer darts, or nets or some other means that our technological geniuses can devise so that children and young people do not predecease their parents needlessly.

I don't think anyone is saying they are ok w/ what happened - obviously we as humans are gonna react differently to different situations depending on our past experiences and how close it hits to home.

It's understandable for many to feel the way they do; but it's also understandable to say that due-process needs to be implemented b/c that is how our society has agreed to handle matters.

@twentyfive I disagree with your point. Yes this needs to stop, but taking away guns from cops is just a horrible idea. The only time a cop should use lethal force is when they feel their life or the life of innocent people is in danger. That is the policy with any police force, the problem is its up to a cops personal judgment of a situation with only seconds to evaluate he situation and then make a decision. And what's the alternative if they did get their guns taken away. Then it would be the opposite problem, cops would get killed by criminals when it could have been prevented. Either scenario is terrible and neither one should happen. The sad thing is no amount of training can prepare you for a real life situation.

I'd like to think there aren't any cops out there that would shoot someone cause they would think "well this guy just murdered someone so I'll just save the courts time and tax payer dollars so I'll just shoot him now instead of him going through trial and eventually getting convicted".

@ a2,

My opinion that one shooting was inexcusable and that for the time being I'll give the police the benefit of the doubt in the other shooting isn't a "rational thought process".

You on the other hand simply assume the police officers involved are racist shit heads who shot an armed man just because he was black. That's a rational thought process? You basically said you aren't going to consider any other narrative.

I was pretty certain that this thread was gonna raise emotions - but that def was not my reason for posting it - I'm not perfect but I'm not a douche that tries to instigates thingss.

Beside the fact there had been another fatal police shooting 2 days earlier in Louisiana, what led me to post this thread was an incident that occured a bit over a month ago closer to home down here in Miami.

A Florida Highway Patrol motorcycle cop comes up to a car at a light - he gets off his motorcycle; the driver tries to drive away; the cop jumps on the hood of the car TJ Hooker style while the driver is trying to drive away - the cop put 3 bullets in his chest thru the front-windshield and kills him - the officer did not suffer any injuries.

Granted - the driver should have obeyed the officer and not tried to get away - but that is no reason to pump 3 bullets into a 24 y/o's chest (and yeah he was AA) - along the lines of what JamesSD mentined earlier; trying to get away from the police is not punishible by death; not saying that I'm right; but IMO that cop just wanted to be a cowboy by jumping on the driver's hood and IMO just like he jumped off the hood after he shot him he could have jumped off the hood w/o shooting him - iMO he did it b/c he could or felt he could b/c "he's a cop" - if that was his nephew in the car he pulled over I doubt he would have shot 3-times into his chest, IMO.

Apperently the reason the driver was trying to get away was b/c he was driving w/ a suspended license - from what I saw in the vid no way did it look like to me the driver was aiming for the offficer and seemed he was just trying to get away which yes is wrong but not wrong enough to take his life away at 24 y/o - below is the vid that sorta shows the incident although it's a bit hazy b/c it's from a gas-station's surveillance camera - anyway that report left me SMH b/c I felt it could have been avoided had the officer not tried to be a cowboy by jumping on the hood of the car and then deciding to just unload on the guy:

http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Repor…

Good pont twentyfive.

In a free society we have to recognize that the police are there to protect and serve. They are doing a job and that job should mean respecting the rights of citizens and reacting in a manner proportionate to the crime.

That means that even Alton Sterling, who was apparently a felon was a gun, should have been treated in a manner proportionate to what he was doing at the time. The police aren't judge, jury, and executioner. If there was an actual threat to their lives that is one thing, but I'm skeptical when the body cameras happen to fall off at just the wrong moment. Unless the facts of the case are very different from the reports Sterling should be alive and awaiting a trial, not dead.

Philandro Castile is even worse. I'm always open-minded to the possibility that something went on that we don't know about, but unless things went down in a manner very different from the reports that case was beyond the pale. If we respect the 2nd amendment and a citizen is licensed to carry the police absolutely need have procedures for dealing with people that legally carry in a way that doesn't end with the citizen dead.

Castile apparently told the officer he had a gun. His girlfriend said that she added that he was licensed to carry. Almost all males keep their ID in their wallet. If the officer was worried about him reaching for the ID that's fine. He should have given Castile an order to stop and then instructed him to provide ID in a way that the officer could feel safe.

In all of these interactions we have one person that is a professional and one that isn't. The job of the professional is to guide the interaction to conclusion that involves the minimum force and the maximum respect for the rights. That may mean arresting the citizen(s) if he/she/they committed a crime. But the ending where the citizen ends up dead should be VERY rare and clearly cases where the police had no other choice. Not this bullshit. We don't live in a police state. Or at least we shouldn't live in a police state.

To everyone saying we should wait for the facts... We already have actual facts, which are 2 more black men dead at the hands of police. The amount of people(not just here, in general) looking to excuse the police in these situations is disgusting.

As far as "2 sides to the story"... Well now,that the victims are dead we only get one side of the story. When it comes to cops killing minorites, it is completely up of the court system whether to accept a one sided story or not, which is bullshit.

It's rational that in a country with hundreds of years of history of murdering blacks for no reason other than they were black, we see a black person get killed on video with very little indication it was called for, and the first thing so many people to is try to find justification in the black persons death?

Sorry, but I tried to be rational regarding this topic a longtime ago. I can't anymore, too many black getting on camera are burned in my memory and could care less for your and many other opinions on the manner anymore. That's my pregorative as a black man who now lives with fear that if I ever come across a police officer, there is a small chance that could be the end of me for no fault of my own.

You wouldn't understand that. You can't understand. You'll never understand that. That's why every word you write about your multiple scenarios for justifying his death chips away at my ability to be rational on the topic.

You're admitting you can't be rational but criticizing me for what you perceive to be irrational? Alright.

People shouldn't get shot for illegally carrying a weapon. But I'll give the police the benefit of the doubt FOR NOW when I know the person they shot was doing so. Especially when it seems that his threatening someone (I consider flashing a gun at someone threatening them) with said illegal gun precipitated the interaction with police.

Jester, so bradishing a gun at someone is justification for murder??? I doubt you would agree if it was your son or brother or father or best friend. No?

*brandishing. What good is autocorrect if it changes words I spelled correctly and doesn't correct words I didn't spell right?

Jester, you read my last comment, hear the rationale for my immovable and percieved irrational stance on the topic and still think there's a conversation I'm willing to have with you or that care what you have to say?

That tenacious ignorance is quite a testament to why I have ultimately chosen the stance I have on the matter.

"You're admitting you can't be rational but criticizing me for what you perceive to be irrational? Alright."

a21985 is being perfectly rational. The police have an obligation to us as citizens. We give them the tools to use deadly force if needed. But deadly force should only be used as a last resort.

There seem to be a lot of cases where black people end up dead. Some are murky. But many others, like the Philandro Castile case, seem pretty clear. I'm open minded to the possibility that something will come to light that makes the shooting justified, but I don't think that is likely. Even the case with Sterling. He may have been doing something illegal and some folks seem willing to excuse the cops for that. But the police have a job - apprehend him and let the legal system deal with him. Their job was not to act as judge, jury, and executioner.

I'm a white guy so I can't know how it feels to be black. But we shouldn't be trying to rationalize cases where a citizen ends up dead at the hands of the police. We should be asking police to convince us that they did their best to handle the situation and that the specific case was justified.

The police forces in a free country owe that to their citizens.

Where did I say that? I said that was a factor in me giving the police the benefit of the doubt FOR NOW. It speaks to the mindset of the individual and the mindset of the officers responding.

Let me repeat this for you jester:

"...That's my pregorative as a black man who now lives with fear that if I ever come across a police officer, there is a small chance that could be the end of me for no fault of my own.

You wouldn't understand that. You can't understand. You'll never understand that. That's why every word you write about your multiple scenarios for justifying his death chips away at my ability to be rational on the topic."

"as a black man who now lives with fear that if I ever come across a police officer, there is a small chance that could be the end of me for no fault of my own."

This sentence sums up what a lot of black men are thinking right now. I've been on a group text with some of my friends and we honestly have been discussing what we should do in a circumstance where we get pulled over. And the consensus is to lie on the ground face down with our hands behind our heads until they have run our plates and see we have no criminal record. It was also discussed buying bullet proof vests and making sure we have our phone cameras at the ready. None of us want to be attending each other's funerals any time soon.

I have friends who are police officers or former police officers and I trust them but not all police officers are good people. And for the record I want to state I don't believe all police officers are bad people either. As in any walk of society, there are good people and bad people. No one can deny there are a disproportionate number of black men being killed at the hands of police officers.

In addition to my fear, I now also need to have a conversation with my sons who aren't even teenagers and my nephew (who just turned 18) about how to handle these situations if they are confronted by police.

"... the police are there to protect and serve ..."

IDK - I'd have to really check and be more observant - but I think down here In Miami at least I'm not sure the cop cars have that on them like they did back in the day (if I remember correctly - maybe it was never on the cars).

@a2,

Yes. I get it. Though I wonder why you responded in the first place or continue to respond.

I was more highlighting your nonsensical criticism of anyone who doesn't agree with you.

@a2,

Please realize all my responses aren't directly at you. There are other people posting in this thread.

Thank you for sharing rh48hr. I just don't a lot people proposing these side with police first while we wait for the facts understand this.

This may be a topic du jour or nuisance conversation for them, but this is fucking personal for us. Every new instance of this affects how we live our lives more and more. It's not a game, it's not a debate, it's our lives and our state of mind.

"In addition to my fear, I now also need to have a conversation with my sons who aren't even teenagers and my nephew (who just turned 18) about how to handle these situations if they are confronted by police."

I'm sympathetic, although I admit that I really can't know what that's like to have to do that.

The scary thing about the Castile case is that he seems to have done everything right by informing the officer and he still ended up dead. That's what appalls me.

I think we should expect the police to act proportionately to offenses and not shot people over minor crimes. But it is even worse when a citizen seems to be doing thing right and still ends up dead.

That's just fucked up.

I picture some cops just as willing to shoot first, get away with killing someone with the excuse that he thought his life was in danger as a cops equal opportunity license to murder any race, any person in the US if you happen to do something questionable according to the police like trying to drive away or reach for something. There was a recent case here in South Carolina where the family sued because their unarmed son was shot and killed by an officer that ran up on the side of a vehicle pointing a gun at the driver. The driver was white. When the driver backed up his car, then turned the vehicle slightly trying to get away from the gunman, the officer, he claimed his life was in danger and shot the unarmed kid dead. I saw the whole video. I thought it was murder. The officer ran up on a parked car surprising the driver. The drivers mistake other than not immediately surrendering to maybe a not uniformed cop, can't remember, was that the officer was standing on the side of the car and someone called it acceptable use of force. It didn't make the national news. It sure made local news though. In my opinion anyone could get shot dead when they get surprised by a gunman out of uniform and the cop can get away with murder in many cases unless they can't find an excuse. No excuse found when a cop killed an unarmed guy running away earlier in South Carolina.

"IDK - I'd have to really check and be more observant - but I think down here In Miami at least I'm not sure the cop cars have that on them like they did back in the day (if I remember correctly - maybe it was never on the cars)."

Fair enough Papi_Chulo. But they SHOULD be here to protect and serve if we really are a free society.

BTW, I'm not accusing you of excusing this fucked up shit. You clearly want it to stop. I get a21985's point too. There just seem to be a disproportionate number of these cases where it is a black person that ends up dead.

Police work is dangerous and I sympathize with cops that are doing a good job. But there seem to be too many that end up with a black citizen dead and questions about exactly what happened.

I think I heard of that case shark - it was a young kid maybe 17 or 19?

The reality is we all need to be careful when pulled over by a cop - I'd def cognizant of always doing the following:

+ pull down all my windows since they are tinted so the officer's view is not obstructed when approaching my car

+ I turn on the interior light so he can see me well

+ I put both hands together at the top of the steering wheel so he can see them well

+ if he asks me for paperwork I let him know my registration in the glove compartment and my license in in my pocket

My point abouit the cop cars not saying "to protect and to serve" as I thought they did back in the day is that it's kinda sobering and why would they have taken that off if they had it in the past (although I can't remember for sure).

Two cops just reported shot in Dallas......now what??

Just a motto that many places used. Think LA had it first. NYC uses a different one.

Football guy you need to read my post, I didn't say anything about taking guns away from police, I said we need to change our perspective. Keep doing the same thing and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. Like it or not this is insanity, and it needs to stop.

I do agree that many, maybe most, police departments need a top to bottom change in how they train officers to deal with people. Probably a change in how they enforce that behavior also.

I think they need better training w.r.t. using more brains than brawn - there are cops that seem to act like SC bouncers w/ guns and act as bullies vs professionals.

^ yeah about 17 or 19 sounds right. Cops said it was justified shooting. Looked like murder to me. The kid was trying to drive away from someone with a gun. If some guy in a parking lot ran up to you with his gun pointing at you and you had your car running, would you try to drive away or feel safe knowing it was probably a cop? At least the lessons I've learned from others fatal mistakes, don't approach any cop if it looks like they are working.
Be very careful what you say.
Don't volunteer info.
Expect them to lie and make accusations.
They are usually not your friend unless you called them to report a crime and it's not a hostile situation but just paperwork for them.

I repeat ,two cops shot in Dallas.....

Fucked up situation! Cop training is an issue. A huge societal change is needed even more. Black Lives Matter!

"I repeat ,two cops shot in Dallas....."

mikeya02, I've never liked that argument. Police work is dangerous. My heart goes out to those officers and their families.

But the reality is that they are doing a job. A dangerous job that needs to be done, but it is still a job. I realize that "protect and serve" is a motto for only some police forces, but it should be the philosophy of all police forces in a free country.

It is possible to be pro-police AND want the police to do their job a way that respects the rights and lives of all citizens. Police as professionals hired by the government to do a job for us. They aren't dictators. Or at least they shouldn't be.

There are many good police that want to help the community and they do that by doing a dangerous job. I applaud all of them. But people who we give tools like guns, body armor, and the right to put us in jail also have an obligation to the citizens they serve. It sure looks like that officer in Minnesota did not do that. At the very least that officer owes the citizens he serves actual evidence that he behaved appropriately.

We really need to rethink our society if it is the case that two police being shot means that it is cool for police to be anything other than professional when they interact with citizens. I'm sure your not suggesting that they should get a pass on that.

^^^^ Just reporting a worsening situation. Now it's 6 or 7 shot, 1 dead. Don't put words in my mouth

I know nothing about the two police who got shot so did not comment. I did see the video about the officer who shot and killed the guy in Minnesota.

I do not support killing any innocent people whether they are ordinary people with minor infractions, the police themselves, or criminals on the run. Self defense is one thing, shooting and killing people just because of whatever reason other than self defense is not justified in my opinion. If they don't answer for it now or in court, they will have to answer for it after they die.

Apologies mikeya02, it wasn't my intention to put words in your mouth. I just checked CNN and it looks like there were police shot at a protest. Obviously a horrible situation.

It would help though if you were a little clearer. Your comment was a bit out of the blue unless one was watching the news to see the connection.

Holy shit @ dallas.

Things are going to get much worse, aren't they?

Scary times. Violence breeds violence

Shark, it's on the news now. Now it;s 10 cops shot, 3 dead

I don't know what happened in Louisiana, and have only heard radio reports about the tradgedy in Minnesota.

I do not have a concealed carry permit (CCP), but from what I understand those who do have a CCP are supposed to, or are required to, inform cops that they have a permit and a gun? If that is true I feel it is stupid. I would never volunteer to a cop that I have a gun (which I usually do have in my vehicle). Nearly without exception cops hate the fact private citizens are allowed to have guns. Nearly without exception cops freak out when they find out anyone besides them has a gun. Game Wardens are just about the only exception to this in my opinion. Game Wardens routinely encounter armed hunters, usually no big deal. Put a city cop on patrol with a Game Warden during hunting season and most would have a nervous breakdown within a few hours. Friends of mine who are Game Wardens tell me this often.

It would be a cold day in Hell before I ever told a cop about my gun in a vehicle. If he stops me for speeding or a busted tail light the gun is of no importance.

The cop in Minnesota sounds like he should have never been allowed to complete training and been issued a certification to work as a cop. It sounds to me like he freaked out as soon as he heard the word "gun" from that poor guy. It will be interesting, in a very sad way, what comes from the investigation into this one. Based on what I have heard the cop should be charged with, and convicted of, murder. He certainly should never be allowed to carry a gun again.

Being Black in the USA cannot be a crime punishable by being shot by a cop. No one should be killed because a damn light bulb burned out of your tail light. It has to stop.

I just saw on the news an extended video of the shooting in Minnesota & man that shit looked cold blooded, further in the video it shows the lady saying "you shot him 4 times sir after you said to show you his ID" - then more cops show up w/ guns drawn and pointing it at the GF telling her to get out of the car, all this after they shot her BF in cold blood, this shit needs to change, cops seem to be getting too much leeway and too low a hurdle to violence.

What might bother me the most about the Minnesota shooting is there was a kid in the back. He risked shooting the kid when he fired that gun. IMO he should have risked getting shot before he endangered that kid.

As far as the cops getting killed it's appalling. I wonder if Beyonce and Obama will be talking about them tomorrow.

I imagine Obama might.

I keep saying it, but this "when in doubt shoot and not only shoot but shoot to kill", is moronic - I can see if the person has a gun in hand, but o/w it seems as "shoot just in case" policy

Papi, Innocent blacks have been shot, and now it looks like innocent cops are going to be shot. Bad night in Dallas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfn_Jtxp…

Watch this and tell me that there isn't a slide toward Fascism going on in AmeriKKKa today... Rage Against the Machine nailed it "Some of those that work forces/ are the same that burn crosses"

4th officer now confirmed dead in Dallas.

While cops overreacting and needlessly shooting suspects is criminal, the premeditated and coordinated murder of law enforcement officers for political reasons is domestic terrorism.

They are both wrong, no way around that

All of these situations are fucked up. These terrorists in Dallas basically set up a kill zone to kill police officers. It's sick. It's not the answer. Prayers to the families of the fallen officers.

This looks like to me a sign of things that have building up under the surface for a good while now & it's terrible that it's taken innocent lives to bring issues to the surface that seem to have been simmering for too long.

I say I'm not psychic but I get images in my mind of what went wrong. From the cops perspective whether this really happened or not, I see someone he pulled over for a broken tail light. He goes up and asks for drivers license and or registration. The cop has not been properly trained to know how to handle people with legal concealed carry weapons. He hears I have a gun and sees the guy reaching. He panics and shoots. It's because he wasn't properly trained.

From the side of the driver, he was totally innocent. He wasn't thinking this cop could kill me, his mistake. He wasn't thinking when he announces to a cop the legal requirement that some stupid and panicked cop without proper training could shoot him dead and get away with murder as others have done could do that. He wasn't thinking about all that and just announced he had a gun before reaching for his license. His gf picked up on it and tried to say he has a permit or something but too late to relieve the panicked officer. In hind site, he could have not announced the gun but asked permission to reach for his wallet and then announced he has a permit. Cop asks permit for what? He says a permit to carry a gun which h has legally. An untrained cop might be real nervous but hopefully not firing.

Cops aren't properly trained and getting away with murder. On the other hand some cops may be bad cops. I think cops need better training and legal weapon carrying public needs better training to not panick cops who weren't properly trained. In the recent case being panicked does not mean it was self defense. That was murder. He will likely get away with it until he has to answer for it when he dies. Now whether he is truly sorry and asks forgiveness from a higher power, we may never know.

I did hear that when all cops were properly equipped with working body cameras, incidents reported against the police dropped dramatically in areas implemented. It makes everyone think twice before doing something. That would be good. Local police I read spent extra money upgrading software communication or else they wouldn't be able to upload the data until much later to be helpful. My local police have trained others. I don't like some tactics but I haven't heard about them shooting innocent people and they have caught a lot of criminals. I give local police kudos for that even though I have gotten the impression the local police here are like a commando outfit run by some smart cops that can catch anyone in their area that all the Barney fifes in other counties couldn't. Sorry if I'm rambling.

WTF is happening to this great country of ours.

@TwentyFive yes, you did basically say cops should not have guns. You said that maybe cops should not be allowed to use any means necessary to stop someone. So since lethal force is the last line of defense, that would be to first authority to take away from them. So if they wouldn't be allowed to use lethal force then they wouldn't need a gun according to your rational.

This is an excellent article I read about why we shouldn't rush to judgement, I couldn't have said it better myself. This article was aimed at the Louisiana incident but this also applies to the Minnesotta incident. I just don't understand why everyone is taking what this woman is saying as 100% accurate. Yes is the trouble a guy died, but we do NOT know what happened leading up to the shooting. Maybe she is telling the truth, maybe he was reaching for his license as he was telling the cop he had a gun which could easily make the cop feel threatened. I'm not speaking specifically to this shooting but every time an innocent person of any race dies, how does every person describe the victim on the news? They were a great person, great father/mother, loved by everyone, etc. You never hear the negative thing about that person.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com…

So following your logic someone with a busted taillight is now justified in running from the police because if they are black they are in mortal danger sorry Tootbal guy but any means necessary is ridiculous and just continues this insanity.

Woke up to the news out of Dallas this morning more tragedy and it doesn't make anything better just a whole lot worse.

If a dancer told you she had aids and you fucked her without a condom, even though you had an open wound on your dick, you would still be smarter than someone who tells the cops he has a gun and t hen reaches into his pocket.

@TwentyFive No, obviously no one deserves to get killed or arrested over a busted tail light. I never said a cop should be able to use lethal force whenever they want. But if the cop feels his life or someone else's life is in immediate danger, then maybe shooting them is justified. I'm sure he wasn't shot because of the busted tail light. The cop probably felt threatened and in danger and that's why he shot him. Even though the victim may very well had had no intention of harming the cop, it ultimately comes down to perception and how the cop felt.

If it turns out to be proven that the victim did everything right and did not once reach for something without being told to then the cop deserves whatever comes his way. But that hasn't been proven yet. What happened to being innocent until proven guilty? Why can't we say it's a tragic event event that resulted in someone losing their life and not blame either party until all the facts have come out? It is also possible (and very likely) that the whole thing was a misunderstanding and ultimately no one was at fault since the cop might have legitimately felt threatened. Why he may have felt threatened though can be justified since it could be because he was black. That is something that needs to change but there is no easy fix.

On a separate note, with this whole black lives matter movement, why are they only protesting black people being killed by white officers? Why don't they seem to care about all the random shootings and murders that take place daily in places like Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, etc?

'While cops overreacting and needlessly shooting suspects is criminal, the premeditated and coordinated murder of law enforcement officers for political reasons is domestic terrorism."

whodey, no disrespect but I think this is the wrong perspective. It makes it sound like the police shooting in Dallas is worse than the shooting in Minnesota. I'd say the opposite.

Here's the thing: everybody agrees that the snipers in Dallas were criminals. Assuming they're captured it is clear what will be done. They will be going to jail and have a good chance of getting the death penalty, especially in Texas. They were criminals committing crimes and they'll be punished.

Police officers are paid by tax dollars. They have a responsibility to the citizens that pay their salary. In a free country the police have an obligation to make a case to the citizens that pay their salaries that they did the right thing. Too often the system just cuts them slack.

We should expect more from police than we expect from criminals.

"On a separate note, with this whole black lives matter movement, why are they only protesting black people being killed by white officers? Why don't they seem to care about all the random shootings and murders that take place daily in places like Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, etc?"

footballguy, this is bad argument. We have to expect more from police than from criminals.

Let's be real here. Truth is, well forget it!

Football guy if the cop is found to be in the wrong there will be no other way to spin this story and the narrative will be black man killed because of busted taillight
I stand by my statement that there needs to be a change, personal descretion is not working well for tha police or minority's people and a redefining of and reorder of options needs to be revised, and changed.

25,

I've been stopped a few times by the police. Now you know me and yes, I am white, but I don't fit the mold of a JS69 type.

Anyway, when they ask for my license and registration,I hand them my drivers license and carry permit. The next question they've asked is if i am carrying. What happens after that depends on the weapon's location. Never had any issue.

Clubber I agree with that, but there is no requirement in the state of Florida that you disclose unless you are asked specifically, but we are not minorities neither you nor I and their experience with law enforcement is generally different than ours, although I have had a problem with an overzealous trooper in the past, it just isn't as severe, and generally we are safer when they are involved than an average black or Hispanic male they don't seem to be so much on edge, as when they are conducting stop and frisk or random traffic stops, and I believe the statistics bear out the fact that minority community members are stopped more often than us white folks, which gives them a feeling of unfairness, and general discomfort around the powers of authority.

"Expect more from police than from criminals."
Thank you 4got.

25,
I agree with your point about us not being a minority, but trust me, bikers are often in that same group. I don't blame an officer for approaching me differently. They have to look at the stats. Certain groups in this situation will have stats different then other groups. This is not a Kumbaya society, but common curtsy and LISTENING can quickly reduce their apprehension.

Clubber you are right, but remember we joined that group and had a choice the minority community was born into it, and even though it isn't right for the cops to target anybody, we made that choice willingly and didn't give a damn about the opinions of others when we joined, and we deal with it accordingly, the of people being targeted on the basis of their skin color, don't have the option of changing their appearance easily to blend in and escape that unwanted scrutiny.

25,

Agreed, but they know how they are often viewed. Right or wrong, they need to be extra vigilant, or at least try to change the perception. The crap they pull every time just reinforces others views, not change them. Just how the world is and will ALWAYS be. Everyone on this planet is prejudiced.

"whodey, no disrespect but I think this is the wrong perspective. It makes it sound like the police shooting in Dallas is worse than the shooting in Minnesota. I'd say the opposite."

Yes I believe the police shooting in Dallas is WAY WORSE than the shooting in Minnesota. This is not based on who was shot or eho did the shooting. It is based on the premeditation involved.

The shooters in Dallas went out last night with a plan to kill multiple people. I don't think the officers in Minnesota went out with a plan to kill anyone that day. They overreacted to a situation in which they feared that the person they pulled over was reaching for a gun.

I am not justifying what happened in Minnesota, I am just saying that a group of people planning to go out and kill multiple people for what someone else did is worse.

Didn't have time to read 118 responses.

Just wonder how many innocent African Americans have been beaten to death or killed before we had cell phones and cheap bits flying all over the internet.

^a lot, probably.

Rodney King wasn't about one guy getting beaten up by the cops. It was the spark that lit a powder keg that had been built up for a long time.

To be politically correct, how should I refer to the race of a black man living in France. Would he be Afro French?

I wondered that when watching the football game yesterday.

France 2 - 0 Germany

If anecdotal evidence is allowed (such as citing a single case where a white cop did something wrong to condemn all white cops), then anyone can "prove" anything. Here's an actual statistic. For every unarmed black man killed by a white cop, there are 18 white cops killed in the line of duty by a black man. The source is a new book called "the war on cops".

I like how the cops sent in a robot with explosives to blow up the shooter

mark I don't believe that source, find a reliable source that can be confirmed. That source just doesn't seem accurate or correct and I cant find it anyplace.

Not sure I believe it either. Cops shoot blacks and "claim" they feared for their lives(who actually knows?) I guarantee they would shoot a black man if they actually did fear for their life. The police take special precaution and training not to get killed. I doubt black men could kill that many cops.

^^^ You might be right. Gang members are horrible shooters

Still, Mac Donald’s statistics tell the tale. At 2015’s end, after police officers had spent a year in retreat in face of the “Ferguson Effect,” skyrocketing murder rates had returned to major American cities.

Mac Donald says the anti-police movement is united by its claim that police departments are inherently racist. But she also points out the fact that two police agencies that have received some of the greatest criticism—the corrections agency for Rikers Island in New York, and the Detroit Police Department—are predominantly staffed by black officers. The lesson: actual problems afflicting police agencies deal professionalism, not race. But The War on Cops is not concerned solely or even primarily with the plight of law enforcement. Rather, Mac Donald fears for minority Americans who are the war’s most numerous casualties. Hearing from the vast majority of minority Americans who are law-abiding citizens trying to lead good lives, we see how community meetings in high-crime, high-minority population neighborhoods have a familiar theme. “The targets of [complaints about criminals] may have been black and Hispanic, but the people making the complaints, themselves black and Hispanic, didn’t care. They just want orderly streets.’’

The question of order in minority communities is critical: “Blacks were charged with 62% of all robberies, 57% of all murders, and 45% of all assaults in the 75 largest U.S. counties in 2009, while constituting roughly 15% of the population in those counties. From 2005 to 2014, 40% of cop-killers were black. Given the racially lopsided nature of gun violence, a 26% rate of black victimization by the police is not evidence of bias.’’ Mac Donald has a convincing explanation for these statistics: the collapse of the family. In a chapter on gang violence in Chicago, for example, we see that in Cook County, “79% of all black children were born out of wedlock in 2003, compared with 15% of white children.’’ Mac Donald notes, “Until that gap closes, the crime gap won’t close, either.’’

Mikey, lol. They really are though compared to police and military who are trained to kill.

So far in my internet searches I have come up with the number of LEO's killed in the line of duty in
Line of Duty Deaths: 130
9/11 related illness: 8
Accidental: 2
Aircraft accident: 1
Assault: 3
Automobile accident: 27
Bomb: 6
Drowned: 1
Duty related illness: 2
Fall: 1
Gunfire: 39
Gunfire (Accidental): 2
Heart attack: 17
Motorcycle accident: 3
Struck by vehicle: 4
Vehicle pursuit: 5
Vehicular assault: 8
Weather/Natural disaster: 1

how many people have been killed by the police in 2015
The Guardian newspaper runs its own database,The Counted, which tracked US killings by police and other law enforcement agencies in 2015, and counted 1140 killed, with rates per million of 2.92 for "white" people, 7.2 for "black", and 3.5 for "hispanic/latino", 1.34 for "Asian/Pacific Islander", and 3.4 for "Native American". The database can be viewed by state, gender (1086 male, 53 female, 1 nonconforming) , race/ethnicity, age, classification (e.g., "gunshot"), and whether the person killed was armed (853 armed, 224 unarmed).[6] The database has continued to add new cases into 2016.

most of this information is available on Wikipedia and Factcheck.org

According to what I just posted the information quoted from mark94's book "The War on Police" by Mac Donald seems to be seriously flawed. Just trying to keep the conversation honest. BTW I have not been able to find the book in question please post a link if you can.

Why does the media fill our minds up with this crappy topic when over 99% plus of the population isn't directly involved in these matters, matters of which in commonality contain lack of respect?? It's as simple as that, but they keep pulling us (99%-era) apart with divisive rhetoric theatrical shit shows!!

We're all just as guilty for playing into it by watching the shit shows and adding our opinions like somebody getting a fucking award for pointing out what's wrong in the police situations. You outta be thankful that you can post safely from your fat fingered phone because of the great work our first responders do on a daily basis, 24/7, 365 days a week even on holidays and evenings. Fuck all you disrespecting faggits!

Why does the media fill our minds up with this crappy topic when over 99% plus of the population isn't directly involved in these matters, matters of which in commonality contain lack of respect?? It's as simple as that, but they keep pulling us (99%-era) apart with divisive rhetoric theatrical shit shows!!

We're all just as guilty for playing into it by watching the shit shows and adding our opinions like somebody getting a fucking award for pointing out what's wrong in the police situations. You outta be thankful that you can post safely from your fat fingered phone because of the great work our first responders do on a daily basis, 24/7, 365 days a week even on holidays and evenings. Fuck all you disrespecting faggits!

Here are statistics on officers who died. If one is killed every 57 hours ( it's certainly more frequent now), then 180 per year is about right. How many unarmed black men are shot by a white cop each year ? Since every one is heavily publicized, I'll bet it's a smaller number than the media would have us believe. As far as the Guardian, it may be the most left wing publication on earth. As far as rejecting statics because you " find them seriously flawed", that's another way you can win any argument every time. The book can be found on Amazon, or pretty much anywhere, by doing a title search.

LOD Statistics

On average, a law enforcement officer is killed in the line of duty every 57 hours in America.

Between 1976 and 1998, of the over 1,800 officers killed--

16% were on disturbance calls
14% were in robbery arrest situations
14% were investigating suspicious persons/circumstances
13% were making traffic pursuits/stops
13% were attempting arrests for offenses other than robbery or burglary
10% were in ambush situations
7% were in an arrest situation involving drug-related matters
5% were in a burglary arrest situation arrests
6% were in other situations
Of the 901 assailants identified in the killing of law enforcement officers from 1989-98 --

almost half had a prior conviction
almost one-fifth were on probation or parole at the time
Most law enforcement officers are killed with firearms, particularly handguns.

SOURCE: U.S. Department of Justice Bureau of Justice Statistics

Here come the copycats. Cops already shot at and wounded in Georgia and Missouri

Instead of multiple shooters, it now sounds like Dallas was one PTSD/mental health case veteran.

Well I hope everyone learned, don't tell a cop who just pulled you over, I have a gun right before reaching for your wallet or glove box.

I learned don't reach for anything until given permission unless he asked and is waiting.

shark,

I always tell them by handing them my carry license. This does two things. Makes then aware I likely have a weapon and that since I have a carry permit, I am likely an above the board person. Never has an issue this way.

What is getting out of control is the biased, agenda driven media and their mega rich, wanna' be controllers. I am not claiming that there is some hidden conspiracy. I am pointing to the facts anyone can look up, if they take the time.

First, there are hundreds of thousands of police officers nationwide. Those officers have dozens of encounters with citizens every day. Most of the officers are NOT biased or racist. Most officers do their jobs extremely well, all day, all night, every day and night. But if you point enough cameras at these officers it is possible to find the rare mistake, the even more rare bigots, and the few horrifying abuses of police trust - out of the many millions of daily police encounters with the public.

You have to ask the question - Why does the media push, for hours - everyday - reports on bad or apparently biased encounters between police and blacks?

Second, the police DO disproportionately shoot blacks almost 30% of the time cops shoot people.(Blacks represent only 13% of US population). But that is a statistic without context.

In context, - - (from FBI.gov and CDC.gov)
-.- almost two-thirds of all violent crime is committed by young black males
-.- 87% of illegal weapons confiscated were last in the possession of young black males
-.- over half of all murders are committed by young black males
-.- two-thirds of all rapes are committed by young black males
-.- over 60% of all known gang members are young black males
-.- over half of all young black males have a criminal record
-.- over three fourths of all assaults on police are committed by young black males.

Note that while blacks are 13% of US population, young black males (not currently in jail) actually represent somewhere between 1.4% and 1.7% of the population.

Is it any wonder that police are nervous when encountering young black males?
How can anyone be surprised when police overreact to the actions of a young black male?

Taken in the context of ALL police encounters with young black males, the number of "bad" interactions is surprisingly small. Why does the media totally ignore context?

And honestly - Is it racism - or self preservation that has police (BOTH white and black officers - bet you didn't hear that fact on MSNBC) treating young black males differently?

With two recent shootings of young black males by police and a president who proclaims racism is the root cause of just about every problem he can name - how surprising is it that another violent young black male takes a gun and starts shooting police in Dallas?

I started by saying I am not claiming a secret conspiracy. Personally, I believe there are several competing agendas that create this nightmare of media bias.

The media, of course, is competing for a larger percentage of a dwindling market in order to charge more for ad time. Upper management is unwilling to lose their high paying position by allowing for "unpopular" context, so all the outlets hammer the same sensationalized stories 24/7.

The money behind the media has an agenda. Soros, Mediamatters and a collection of "behind the curtain" players encourage the "racism" message for their own purposes. Mostly, those purposes are about control - they already have lots of money.

There is a minority movement to "disarm" or "ban guns" or keep "assault weapons" from the "bad guys" or in some other way overturn the 2nd amendment. A few are truly sincere, if misguided citizens, but much of the anti-gun agenda is driven by big money and politics. That agenda demonizes the NRA, but ignores the fact that the NRA is just a club with 80,000,000 members - and if the NRA has any influence it is because politicians realize that HALF of their voters are members of the NRA. Bloomberg and a collection of Washington liberals, want to promote a message of a violent US that will be different if you let them ban some weapon, control who is legally allowed to own weapons and make it illegal for a dad to give his son a rifle.

Part of the anti-gun noise is is distraction. The politicians pushing that message have other problems or platforms they do not want people to dwell upon. Part of the message is about "easy press." The media is already sensationalizing violence at every opportunity, why NOT jump on that band wagon with sound-bite worthy anti-gun remarks? Free face time on TV, why not?

Part of the "racist cop," "anti-gun," "violent America" narrative also has a more sinister purpose. There are people - in charge of several media outlets, in politics, and with the money behind several politicians - who really want to change this country into a government controlled, government directed nation. You can guess who they want in charge of that government.

My bottom line is - what really needs to change are:

The black culture that pushes so many young black males toward violence.
The media that pushes their agenda before facts.
The voters who vote without real facts.

I may not have the answers, but at least I know some of the facts.

dallas,

You should be "band" from TUSCL! You are way to logical and fact based to be here!

If I might add to your "bottom line"...

The black culture should stop looking to blame others and look in mirror. Could sort of fall under your first bottom line entry, I suppose.

Could it be that the world has "donut envy" and the media has taken to using the police as their witch hunt? I for one am jealous of the tasty privilege those men in blue have over us average folks. We deserve the same pastry delights as those protecting our safety day in and day out, and just because they put their lives on the line has no reason to oppress the rest of the nation's taste buds! I for one say we need to end this divide, and call for an "all free donut day" for every many woman and child in America, black or white or yellow or red skinned, too. Donut envy has to end!! Now who's with me??

@ Dallas

Black culture. ..

My dad was born in the 50's and is from CA. He grew up in Compton which was transitioning to be a black neighborhood at the time. My dad was not a complete angel got into mischief just like white kids do, throwing rocks at windows, a bit of shoplifting (candy bars because he was too poor to buy). These are things me and my white friends did growing up. The cop didn't arrest us and give us a criminal record, but that's what happened to my dad.
So that Stat of 50% of young black men have criminal records doesn't speak to me that young black men are more inclined to be criminals, but that the justice system is more inclined to prosecutensure (aka persecute) young black men that whites.

If police demonstrated the understanding they do with white people you would have the sort of violence that exists today. Respect begets respect and the same is true for disrespect

^^ fckn auto correct. ..point is the law is more inclined to punish young (poor) black men.

The truth is poor people in general get screwed.

Unfortunately do to only recently cleaned up practices in this country a majority of blacks are still below the poverty line.

This isn't a black issue as much a socioeconomic one. But keep saying blacks are more violent and cops are justified.

That's the belief that's causing these shootings in the first place

^that don't care about that. All they know is we're all gangbangers, theives, murders, and rapists. That's good enough reason for the police to keep shooting blacks, right or wrong.

Unfortunately we don't yet live in a color-blind society and there are still race issues to overcome - but it takes two to tango and there are always two sides to the coin as the sayings go - i.e. IMO there is blame on both sides of the color line and there are issues to be overcome on both sides for progress to be made.

I say that there is a serious problem in police training and procedures.

I also note that we have a much more lawful and orderly society than we did 40 years ago. But we did not get this by reaching better economic fairness. On the contrary, we live in a country which is much more stratified and fatalistic. The reason we are more lawful is just from "putting 100,000 more police officers on the street", B. Clinton, and also from high tech policing, and also just because police have figured out how to get around most of the Warren Court era civil rights and due process protections.

So for many it does certainly look like we are living in a Police State, in a condition of marshal law.

I won't try to judge any of these recent events, because I was not there. But I say that we do need serious reforms, in police practices, but also in out entire society.

SJG

Panther ( 1995 )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1PmnZ9h…

GACA, don't try to argue with dallas702. He's just a cranky old white guy who isn't very logical.

Notice how his source he cites for his statistics is just the main web page for the FBI and CDC. Not the actual page that has the supposed statistics. He probably just got it off some nutjob white power site that claims it is based on FBI and CDC statistics. I sincerely doubt that dallas even understands statistics. Or basic math.

aw snap tranny, you got him good

I agree with most of the black folks, here that its scary for them to have an encounter with law enforcement, but I also don't believe that every cop out there is evil, remember when you are running away from danger their job requires them to run towards it. With that being said I am not sure of the solution, but this needs to stop too many young people in minority community are being killed by law enforcement. I personally believe that there needs to be a better method to deal with a broken taillight than to have a young man senselessly murdered, and I also believe attacking the police is completely, a crime against our society as a whole, way beyond anything we consider civilized.

GACA,

I didn't!

25,

Of course it is scary for a black youth to be confronted by the police. Bur then, only they and their "leaders " can change that encounter.

Why is it only us that has to change? I 100% agree we need to change but it's not all on us. And of course not all cops are bad, in fact most of my encounters with police they are ok guys but still too many times the police are looking for trouble. I have been walking down the street and stopped and accused of breaking into houses in the neighborhood. I had the police drive past my house while I'm on my front porch at 2 am, stop and shine their flashlight in my face.

Listening to liberals like Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, you would think that enormous numbers of black men are being gunned down by police officers. When the issue is debated, many take it for granted that a vastly disproportionate number of blacks are involved in police shootings–in fact, if you didn’t know better, you might think that only blacks are ever shot by policemen.

The numbers tell a different story. Like all statistics, they bounce around from year to year, but let’s go with the Washington Post’s study of police shootings in 2015. The Post found that 990 people, almost all of them men, were shot and killed by law enforcement last year. Before you start calling them victims, however, note that the Post also found that in three-quarters of these incidents, police were defending either themselves or someone else who was, at that moment, under attack. That leaves around 250 cases that were not obvious self-defense or defense of a third person. That doesn’t mean, of course, that those shootings were unjustified.

What was the racial breakdown of those who were shot by police in 2015? The largest number, 494, almost exactly half, were white. 258 were black, 172 were Hispanic, and the remaining 66 were either “other” or unknown. (Interestingly, Asians are rarely shot by police officers.)

The 258 blacks represent 26% of the total. That is about double the percentage of blacks in the American population. Is that prima facie evidence of racism on the part of law enforcement? Of course not. It is common knowledge that blacks have an unusually high rate of contact with the police, both as victims and as perpetrators. In 2012-2013, the Department of Justice found that blacks were the perpetrators of 24% of all violent crimes where the race of the perpetrator was known (in 7.8% of violent crimes, it was unknown).

So the percentage of blacks fatally shot by police officers (26%) is almost exactly equal to the percentage of blacks committing violent crimes (24%). Indeed, given that the black homicide rate is around eight times the white rate, it is surprising that the portion of blacks fatally shot by policemen is not higher.

Liberals might argue that blacks are disproportionately the victims of unjustified shootings by law enforcement, but I have not seen anyone try seriously to make that case. The Post took a pass at supporting the liberal narrative by arguing that “unarmed” blacks are shot at a higher rate than whites. But the Post failed to note that, according to its own data, blacks are much more likely to attack police officers while unarmed. I don’t know why this is, but in general, I think that unarmed people who assault police officers are likely to be high on drugs. The Post also failed to point out that blacks are much more likely to assault police officers with motor vehicles. That counts as “unarmed.” We had a case like that recently in Minnesota, where a black perpetrator tried to run down a police officer and the officer shot him in self-defense.

One can slice the Post’s 2015 data in various ways. One question is whether there is a racial disparity with regard to whether the policeman or someone else is under direct attack by a perpetrator–i.e., an obvious case of self-defense. I did the math, and it turns out that, for whatever reason, the percentages are a little different for each ethnic group. (You can measure anything by ethnic group, and in all likelihood the numbers won’t be exactly the same. If it is to your political advantage, you can call that difference a “disparity” or a “gap.”)

According to the Post’s numbers–and you should bear in mind that a subjective process of classification lies behind each instance–80% of whites who were fatally shot by police officers in 2015 were in the midst of an attack on the policeman or someone else. According to the Post, 71% of blacks were shot while attacking someone, while 66% of “others” and 62% of Hispanics were shot while attacking the policeman or someone else. If you take these differences seriously, which you probably shouldn’t since re-classifying a small number of instances would dramatically change the results, they might be an argument for discrimination against Hispanics and Asians. Blacks turn out to be a relatively favored group, by this measure.

In short, the data on police shootings show that blacks are involved in such incidents just about exactly as often as one would expect, given their violent crime rate. Slicing and dicing the numbers is interesting, but doesn’t generate any obviously relevant correlations that would change that finding. Which means that, unless someone can make a compelling argument based on the data, which we have not yet seen, the Black Lives Matter movement is founded on a lie.

So Mark if you just break it down everyone who disagrees with you is a liberal I guess you think the the earth is flat. SMH

No 25, I think Mark's point is valid. Obama and Hillary and Bernie (socialist), and most of the current crop of Democrats, spend a lot of time proclaiming inequalities that only they can fix - (with your vote, your campaign contribution, and later with almost all your money confiscated in taxes). The fact that they never manage to fix anything is not relevant to their argument.

I think Mark is detailing accurate facts, in context, about one area that the "liberals" (Obama, Hillary, et al) distort the truth and take certain facts out of context in order to create a problem for them to "fix."

And just for your information, everyone doesn't have to agree with me. If you want to be a total idiot and disagree with me, that's your problem! ;<)

This isn't a liberal or conservative issue. Its not even a black or white issue. Its about the police (and the people defending them) sterotyping a group of people they should be serving and protecting like everyone else. Its about the unfair justice system. It's about every life matters, whether they are a law abiding citizen or a perceived (or actual) criminal. If they indeed committed a crime, there is a due process to determine their punishment. But to be executed by the police because the statistics say someone is more likely to be a criminal is not right.

Dallas702, this is for you.
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=4…

To Dallas I guess I'm an idiot and so is no less a luminary than Newt Gingrich, and most reasonable folks. You like to think your side of an argument is the only viewpoint that matters let me inform you that other views are valid. If you think otherwise I'm guessing you too believe that the earth is flat.

25 - honest ,I DID put a smiley face at the end of my last remark. I don't know why it got cut off.

Maybe it is some vast conspiracy?

But I doubt Newt is involved, either in your position or the conspiracy!

What? are you trying to imply it isn't flat?

Mr. Dallas, I think twentyfive is referring to recent remarks by Mr. Gingrich:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-…

Notice how I provided a link to a citation directly to a relevant article without calling you a moron.

Aw snap

I like how chessmaster admits he sits on his porch at 2 AM. The only people I know who do that, and it doesn't matter if they are black or another color, are people who are up to no good. There's only the law and the outlaw up at that time of day.

By the way 25, the Minnesota shooting had the cop pulling him over because his profile fit the description of an armed robbery suspect from two days prior, not because of a broken taillight like the girlfriend purported. She also without wasting any time made public statements that were found false within a few hours. She and the rest of her I'll clearly carry around a chip on their shoulders, which basically means your looking for trouble.

^Damn I can't believe how fucked up some people are. Smh.

Meat, since dallas wants us to engage in a data driven debate perhaps you should link to the sources for your statements.

I was originally happy to just emphasize the tranny's question that dallas didn't want to answer because I thought dallas was being disrespectful by not even acknowledging that an avoidable death is a tragedy.

Now we learn that chessmaster can't even sit on his own porch on his own property after beddy bye time. When should chessmaster stop sitting on his porch? Or maybe he can sit on his porch when he damn well pleases because we live in a free country.

Aw snap!

^^^ nah, u and he are just butt sore from carrying around that chip on your shoulder all day and every day. Gotta feel sorry for yourself with all that weight bringing u down.

Maybe I'll make meat72 a 2am'er one day. Im nothing but a gangbanger/thug/murderer/rapist/criminal anyway.

Watch your back meat72.

Here is the lie : All cops are racists who look for opportunities to kill blacks

Here is the truth: There are some bad cops, either racist or more likely just poorly trained, whose actions result in the death of a relatively small number of whites, blacks, and Hispanics each year.

Here is another truth: There some bad politicians and social justice warriors, who try to build their power on the backs of these victims, spreading lies about pervasive racism among police.

If someone is convinced that all cops are racist, they feel that the death of one black man by one white cop is proof. It isn't. It's simply proof that a bad thing happened. You need to look at statistics to see if there is a pattern of racism. Statistics prove there isn't.

I like to sit on my patio well after 2AM usually with a couple of buddies. I'm well over 60 and white does that make me a "Patio Man" don't get your point Meat, what the hell is wrong with people are you telling me what time I need to be in bed? This is where I would tell a cop or any one else to get off my property and mind his own fucking business unfortunately most people of color would have a real problem if they responded that way. Just saying.

Proof chessmaster is, and always has been, nothing but a blowhard POS. All talk and nothing else better to do, except dreaming of 2 AMers. You're a real tough guy aren't you? Threats and intimidation are a clear sign of thug life, and poor people, too.

So mark, did any of us actually say your lie that "All cops are racists who look for opportunities to kill blacks"?

You do realize that even a few bad cops are a problem because they have guns and are able to kill people. What is with you right wingers with you saying that we're saying its 100% when it's really a small number.

So it's a small number. There is still systemic racism and black men are getting killed disproportionately relative to white men for similar crimes. What ratio of fatal "mistakes" for black people vs fatal mistakes should we be happy with?

The problem I have with you and dallas is that you couldn't even write a little preamble saying that it's a tragedy that this person who was behaving appropriately by all reports ended up dead before quoting your data. That's just plain disrespectful.

And now we're learning that being on your own porch at 2am is criminal. Good to know.

Lol. That is comical. I'm neither a thug or poor. Hahaha. That's a good laugh though.

This thread is boring to me and way off topic for paying strippers for lap dances

This thread is out of control

And yes I haven't read nothing in this thread

AwSnap, by definition, it's not a systemic problem if it's a small number. That's exactly my point. The Black Lives Matter movement is based on the lie that there is a systemic problem. The anti-cop hatred they have stirred up has resulted not only in the death of 5 cops, but rising crime in Urban areas because cops aren't proactively doing their jobs for fear of being called racist.

Nobody is stopping them from doing their job. By all means, that's what they get paid for but their job is not to target and kill a group of people based on bs statistics.

25 the comparison is apples to oranges as I'm sure u live in a different neighborhood than chessmaster, and even if the police go through his neighborhood with the same frequency as they go through yours, chessmaster had to tell everyone the cops shined a flashlight on him at 2 AM. So what, does that automatically make him a victim? I've had cops shine me in the wee hours after midnight, too, but I never make a point of telling people about it or feeling victimized. I bet you've had police question you without cause before, too. That "poor me" mentality is exactly what's wrong. Law abiding citizens have run ins with police all the time, but they move on and make no fuss about it. Those who want to be a victim of their own circumstance do so to avoid the responsibility of good behavior. Chessmaster is simply allowing bad behavior, and even partaking in it by creating a hit list. So typical of his ilk. Poor, thuggish, chip on his shoulder ilk.

Papi I just put you on ignore for trolling like this

chessm

You ask, "Why is it only us that has to change?"

Simple. In a police encounter, the officer most always takes the first action. Usually a request. The response is often the problem and only "us" can change that.

clubber on ignore

Dumass... I live in a mostly white suburb you stupid fuck. The police only started patrolling when a few minority families moved there.(yet nothing happens anymore than when it was an all white neighborhood. Hmmmm.)

No one's stopping them ? They shine a light on someone who is on their porch at 2am. Racism ! profiling ! So, cops don't stop suspicious people for justifiably thinking they will be called racists. They just wait for the crime to occur. New York cops stopped frisking suspicious people for guns because their mayor thought it racist. Now, criminals know they can carry illegal guns with little chance of being caught.

When confronted with statistics, your retort is to say the statistics are BS. Well, how can I compete with that brilliant argument ? You really believe that cops, in general, want to target and kill a group of people ? If that was true, there would be thousands and thousands killed each year, not the small number we see now. But, I'll bet that's another BS statistic for you.

chessmaster on ignore

mark94 on ignore

mark, you should have noticed that I said the word ratio.

Let's say you have a police force where the police 0.01% racist against against white people. That's an overestimate, but I'll just give you that say you don't just say "but some cops are racist against whites"

Now that same police force has 1% that are racist against black people. Probably an underestimate but I'll just give that to you as well so I can make a point.

Is there systemic racism. According to you there isn't because it's only 1%.

But do some math mark. The average cop in that city is 100 times more likely to be racist against black people than white people. And remember that the guys aren't just shining flashlights in people's faces. They have guns and they can shoot people.

And they do that at a disproportionate rate relative to the crimes, if any, that are committed.

So a small number but it sure sounds like systemic racism to me.

But go back to thinking that black lives matter has no point because the percentage of racist police isn't 100%.

I'm done responding you retards.

AwSnap. I did the math. The percent of blacks shot by cops is equal to the percent of violent crimes committed by blacks. You, on the other hand, assumed it was 100 times as much, then used those fake statistics to "prove" your case.

With that, I'm done. Back to lap dances.

AwSnap on ignore

The ignore button is your friend. I have the most friends because I have the most people who've placed me on ignore. I have a huge list on my ignore list, just that I don't advertise. I even just skim past those I have on ignore without placing them on ignore. It's fun to ignore an ignoramus.

Whatever mark, there's bigger issue. Up until you and dallas started posting everybody was agreeing that it was a tragedy that these two deaths occurred. You guys just launched into statistics to prove your point. At least have the courtesy to acknowledge the tragedy.

Probably pointless to argue with you about stats but we're not saying they're bullshit. We're saying is that the simplistic stats you did aren't the whole story. You or dallas might convince me if you could point to actual sophisticated analyses by real social scientists and not just doing a little basic arithmetic based a few tables you found, without even trying to understand any biases that might exist in the data.

Take stop and frisk. What are the stats there? http://nyclu.org/node/1598

But if somebody wanted to take a contrarian position they could probably debate the details of that analysis. These issues are complex. And if you don't believe that society, including some police, has some issues with systemic racism you're not paying attention.

You also totally missed my point about the ratio. It was simply to show that a small number can create a big problem.

But there's a bigger point. Like I said, everybody was lamenting that tragedy of those two deaths. I also lament the deaths of the police in Texas. Dallas PD actually has a good record and they're trying to address issues of policing with respect.

It would have been more respectful for you and Dallas to start out by acknowledging that people died and its a tragedy before going into your stats discussion. Or maybe start a different thread. Even if you you don't want to acknowledge that these issues are complicated.

Meat on ignore

chess,

You are a perfect example of what I said. Thanks for the backing!

I guess the amount of posts on this thread speaks to the hot-button issues race is still today - guess I'm just being Captain Obvious

^^^ Papi, I stand by my original theory that this issue is only about donut envy. The ones without always want those that have.

It certainly is. Hundreds of years of murdering and oppression of blacks followed up in the post civil rights movement era by the the new Jim Crow, has continued to oppress the black race in new ways.

This perpetuates racism, povery, broken families and undereducation, which leads to the continuing amount of violence within and to the black community. If you can't for a moment see how a nation enslaving blacks, telling them they are legally considered 3/5ths of person, and aren't allowed the same privileges as whites could lead to continuing racism, socioeconomic and violent impacts of today, then you are simply feeding into the unbreakable cycle of racial superiority to blacks your predecessors were spoon fed.

Does the black community need to change? Yes. Is there still inherent systemic racism against blacks? Yes. None of that will ever improve until everyone, black, white and everywhere in between admits this is an issue centuries in the making that we all need to come together and work on. Unfortunately, this will all fall on deaf, ignorant, volatile ears and things will just continue to get worse.

If you are seriously waiting for every person everywhere to come together before things improve for your race, then you're in for a few more centuries of waiting.

IMHO there are far too many African Americans who will rail on too no end about the injustices done to their community yet do nothing themselves to actually help their community.

You're hopeless.

Clubber on ignore
Jim on ignore
Jess on ignore
a21 on ignore

This thread is way off-topic and any one that contribute to this is going on my ignore list

ENOUGH! You racist white folk, listen up! My black brethren knows what they be talkin bout here! You white devils don't know shit bout bein black and how Jesse and me taught them what they needs to know and say so they can gets there way. They doin it rite like theys was taught to say. You racist white devils cant argue wit dem you needs to listen at dem! You crackers needs to say yo sorry and start pay yo reparations cause we aint go shut up till you do! Then we goin want mo from you aint neva gonna end! Its yo fault that black men gots no respect fo nothn kill each otha fo nothin don't obey no laws don't give a shit bout nutn! The black men are rite like we told dem. You crackers are wrong you needs to let dem have der way cause that's what we taught dem!