The writing is on the wall.

A catchy tune. But a simple-minded view of a complex problem.

Absolute fucking insanity. Europe is inviting in the Trojan horses that will lead to the destruction of their society as it has been known. And we might not be far behind. Donald Trump chose the right issue to make a name for himself.

If you've read previously, a lot of these European countries have dwindling populations therefore they welcome immigrants/refugees with open arms hopefully filling some of the many vacancies in their labor market.

Last time I checked we (USA) weren't hurting for more citizens. I personally think it's insanity saying they will pay college educations. Paying for a trade school - yes good idea, or how about offering a free education to all the natural citizens already here instead of making them pay off their loans for 10 years after they graduated??? Hey politicians look at those options and get back with us.

It's simple, they say that just to get votes, they know republicans would never agree to that, so they just got every voter that supports illegal immigrants becoming citizens "overnight" in their pockets. They also have the votes of children of the illegal immigrants that are citizens because of being born in the USA and who are now old enough to vote.

I watched an interesting show on the History Channel.

The invading Mongols introduced the Black Death to Europe at the port city of Kaffa.

Our government already pays for education through the 12th grade. Lots of people get full scholarships to public universities so the government is already paying for that. What Sanders proposes, while unpopular with most conservatives, is not exactly anything revolutionary.

Progressives have nothing to offer other than stealing money from the taxpayers to buy votes. Thats why all of their policies encourage useless foreigners to come here, why they hate people who work and earn, why they encourage the biggest losers among us to breed, why they try to ban anything people can use to protect themselves from government, why vermin like the black lives matter people are treated as if they are anything other than thugs. If you vote democrat you are a traitor to america. If you vote republican its sad that they are the better or only choice.

Reading a conversation like this is like watching a kid gorge himself on junk food. It is pure shit, but to the kid it tastes really good going down. ;)

We have been having kids at below replacement rate since 2007. We also have an aging population and fewer domestically born workers to shoulder the absurd entitlement payments that will be due to baby boomers as they continue to age. And if we deported all of the immigrants, the picture would be even more bleak as immigrants tend to breed more than women born here in the U.S. Like it or not, we need the current crop of immigrants.

We should legalize them en masse and start collecting SS and medicare taxes from them right now. It is not like they aren't already working anyway. Shit, with the way our country's population is aging, we could use more of them than we already have. I would be perfectly fine with a lengthy path to citizenship that includes restrictions upon the use of social services (most of which they don't qualify for now anyway), but let's get them on the books and paying into the system like everyone else. We need to money and we need them breeding more workers to support future generations of retirees.

That's it I'm moving to Nazi Germonia

Our government already pays for education through the 12th grade. Lots of people get full scholarships to public universities so the government is already paying for that. What Sanders proposes, while unpopular with most conservatives, is not exactly anything revolutionary.

^
DOH! You're referring to American citizens there genius. We're talking giving college educations to illegals, you don't think that's even a little bit different than educating our legal citizens? SMH

Reading a conversation like this is like watching a kid gorge himself on junk food. It is pure shit, but to the kid it tastes really good going down. ;)

^
Sort of explains your outlook regarding the rest of your post. Is this the birth of a whole new system?

"Sort of explains your outlook regarding the rest of your post. Is this the birth of a whole new system?"

Feel free to dispute anything I said with something concrete. Unless deflecting by regurgitating a goofy troll joke is all you're capable of. ;)

And if immigration policy is now a system, then it would actually be reverting back to an old one. Immigration is one of the big reasons why, as a mature industrialized country, we have not stagnated like so many European countries, many of which had closed borders until they starting allowing immigrants from poorer EU countries. We started limiting immigration in the 60s and have had a series ot tightening events through the 90s, which are now coming home to roost as our demographics are starting to look like those of other stagnant industrialized countries.

That should have said "up through the 90s."

Immigration is one of the many reasons the American Dream is dying for born citizens.

That said, it is mostly the citizens own fault for voting those cretins into power.

Feel free to dispute anything I said with something concrete.

^
Rick you have to post something concrete first in order for it to be disputed. All I can do when reading your first post is just think "wow, where is this guy coming from?"

That's it I'm moving to Austria

Nazi Austria that is

OSU, I'll simplify it then...

Americans breed less than they used to, so the population is aging. We need the immigrants because we are not producing enough home grown young Americans to support all the Baby Boomers who are already retired and those who will become retired in the next decade. Social Security and Medicare payments have to come from somewhere and the system is almost broke. If we legalize the existing illegals now, we can tax them for social security and medicare right away. I'd also like to invite more in so that we can tax them too. Immigrants also breed more than home grown Americans, which means more children to work and be taxed in the future to support the old folks.

The existing system is utterly unsustainable, which the politicians know but are too cowardly to do anything about. Either we (1) bring more young people in from outside the country to work and pay taxes; (2) seriously cut benefits; or (3) make our children and grandchildren tax slaves in order to support us in our old age. There is no fourth option here. It is simple math.

The problem with that logic is most illegals depend on welfare for their kids. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/natio… http://cis.org/Welfare-Use-Legal-Illegal…. Assuming that eventually they work to pay for social security doesn't mean they are paying for my social security. I'm supposed to be paying for my social security so chances are I've paid more for that and welfare then they are paying for social security.

Now assuming they are working and paying taxes (most can't because they are illegal and don't have id), that brings up another point and that is they are taking jobs from our needy, especially blacks and Hispanic Americans (that is to say Hispanics that have been here several generations). Many take low paying jobs that could help our low income get off welfare. Yes it can be argued many on welfare don't want to work, but if welfare is cut and they have no choice but to work many will.

No we don't need to import more people who are taking jobs or welfare. Honestly think the illegals will be loyal? not at all. Many never learn English. To be fair I prefer them over Muslim refugees because at least they are Christian (Catholic usually) and their culture isn't too far from ours, and they aren't terrorists but I don't want anyone who is a drain. Not when our people are suffering, including being rejected for social programs because too many illegals are stealing it.

Rick, I understood what you said but I don't comprehend how you can actually believe that.
The problem with your observation is that the illegals are sponging off the system not contributing to it and many politicians want to give them free reign to sponge even more.
I agree the system is unsustainable but one of the reasons is because the leftists want to give everything away for free as a way of generating votes, when you give homes, food, phones, etc away for free you destroy the incentive of having people earn their way. Witness the career welfare baby machines who live off of welfare. Their mothers lived off welfare, and their kids will live off of welfare, it goes on for generation after generation. Add to that the fact that the more babies they have the more they collect. They're not getting any mandated training to make themselves self sustainable, they're getting freebies to spread their legs and watch Jerry Springer. Do you think that many of the illegals won't go down that road too when they see how easy it is?
I'm not totally against immigration but let's go back to where it was before. Immigrants that legally arrived and went through the process of becoming citizens, assimilated into our society learning American values and working their way up the stairs of what used to be the American Dream. Now many of them want to come here, live on the dole and change us into the country that they left.

From reading some of your posts i'll speculate that you're some type of businessman. Do you see a business surviving by giving away their products or services? Well that's what our country is doing and that's why it won't survive! It's not because we don't have enough immigrants, we have too fucking many with more arriving every day!

There are no easy answers to any of this and obviously your POV and my POV don't mesh and frankly I don't see either one of us convincing the other to see the light so you can respond if you want but i'll let what I've already said speak for me.

I will add that Former Stripper who posted while I was posting also reinforces in other words some of the same point I was making, thank you!

And thank you TheeOSU. Yeah, that's the thing I don't get is how many people want to increase those we let in. If they were like you mentioned contributing, becoming Americans, and working hard that is one thing. After all, our ancestors all did that, including Native Americans. Back when most of my ancestors arrived they had no choice but to work hard and assimilate. My paternal grandmother arrived from England after World War 2 (married to my grandfather)and she worked hard and never took anything (though being British gave her many advantages). Compare that to the immigrants (legal and illegal) we get now. How many receive welfare or never learn English? Look at the illegals especially and see how many are actually educated. They aren't, most can barely speak their native tongue and are unskilled. Same thing with refugees. I was just reading a topic about Vietnamese refugees (those who came after the war)and the amount on welfare, who never learned English is staggering. At least they had a reason to come, most would have been killed. The illegals really don't, too many just want handouts. Here's another video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzHHgjAi…. This originally aired on the CBS News. Do we want more like her? Many states are going broke (California and Illinois to name two)supporting them. Meanwhile I know lots of citizens who can't get help. I'm not open to allowing more uneducated people in. We can't afford to help everyone.

@rickdugan

"have had a series ot tightening events through the 90s"
That's a creative way to describe out politicians and corporations selling out the middle class in favor of profits.
Also you seem to not differentiate between illegals aliens and immigrants.

Speaking of immigration here's a video about the right way to immigrate and the right kind of citizen: http://www.nbcnews.com/video/nightly-new…. Here's a guy who came for the right reasons.He speaks the language (he's from England), he's married to an American, he's wealthy (one of the founders of one of the most popular rock bands), he's not taking jobs away (very influential and considered one of the best bass players). He's definitely not going to take away welfare or jobs nor ask us to cater to him or ask us to speak another language. Full disclosure, I've met him and have spoken to him and his band members but that's not the point. My point is this is someone we should encourage to come. Listen to the entire video, he talks about learning the history and all the studying he did to become a citizen.

OSU posted: "The problem with your observation is that the illegals are sponging off the system not contributing to it and many politicians want to give them free reign to sponge even more."

How so? Illegals do not qualify for most welfare programs in most states, including SNAP, WIC, housing subsidies or cash assistance. They also do not qualify for state or federal health care subsidies. Illegals usually have to work their asses off because they have no choice. If they don't work, they don't eat. I think you have illegals confused with our homegrown poor, who do qualify for all of those goodies.

And on the contribution side of the ledger, do they not already pay sales taxes? Do they not pay rent, part of which is used by property owners to pay property taxes? Now yes some do use emergency rooms for medical treatment, but I suspect that most of them would gladly buy health insurance if it was available to them (which it generally is not). They would also gladly have federal and state taxes withheld if it meant that they could be legal.

Most illegals end up paying more in taxes than they ever take out. It's actually one big stumbling block in immigration reform; it's helpful to the bottom line to have people who pay taxes (sales, property indirectly via rent and payroll when they use a fake or stolen SSN) but don't qualify for many services.

I feel like undocumented students shouldn't get financial aid for college. We have a hard enough time funding higher education for legal students.

Rick, they get it courtesy of their kids. Many states have programs for them, including Illinois and California. They do definitely use welfare. In Texas there is a case where they were denying birth certificates to these kids and the parents admitted they needed the certificates to get welfare. One mom was a "stay at home mom". These mom admitted the kids were on welfare. http://www.latimes.com/nation/immigratio… "She relied on the birth certificates to register her girls for school, Medicaid and other government services.

But when the stay-at-home mother arrived at the downtown vital statistics office Thursday, she discovered the rules had changed. Without a U.S. driver's license, visa or Mexican electoral card, she could not obtain a birth certificate for her child."

If she has to rely on welfare, why is she a stay at home mom? Yes her kids are citizens but the welfare they are getting helps her as well. Here's another one: ""We can't register for Head Start.... We had problems with Medicaid," she said as her pigtailed daughter drank from a sippy cup in a stroller nearby. "It's racism. Give us the opportunity.". Want to pay for their Medicaid (which often pays for the mom too)? I don't.

I'd rather support our homegrown poor than someone else's poor which illegals are. Not our problem. Also, the 14th Amendment was never intended for them but for the freed slaves. It was intended for those here legally, which they aren't. Also, many are disqualified, like children of diplomats aren't considered citizens.

I can post more but when several studies (including CNN)say most illegals are on welfare I look at it.

Another article from the Tribune: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2014-…

With lower incomes, illegals rely more on welfare programs. CIS says in Texas, "58 percent of illegal households collect some sort of welfare," with "49 percent using food assistance and 41 percent using Medicaid." In California and Illinois, reports CIS, "55 percent use welfare."

California, which has the largest number of illegal aliens, predictably has the greatest burden. In Los Angeles County alone, according to a CBS Los Angeles report, welfare and other benefits by the end of last year cost an estimated $650 million just for the native-born children of illegal immigrant parents. L.A. County Supervisor Michael D. Antonovich told CBS Los Angeles: "When you add the $550 million for public safety and nearly $500 million for health care, the total cost for illegal immigrants to county taxpayers exceeds $1.6 billion a year."

Hospital closings in California remain a major concern. As Examiner.com reported recently in a story about the economic burden to taxpayers posed by illegal immigrants, "In 2003, the American Southwest saw 77 hospitals enter bankruptcy due to unpaid medical billsincurred by illegal aliens."

Free higher education for illegals....fuck that.

Let's back the truck up here a minute:
"Our government already pays for education through the 12th grade"

Pardon me for a minute while i collect my jaw from the floor. SMH

More than 90% of all education funds are supplied by the state and local governments. These funds come DIRECTLY from sales tax, income tax and property taxes. IE: me, you and every other legal citizen. The federal gov't provides less than 10% of all education funding to K-12 school systems and that comes out of our federal taxes.

The GOVERNMENT doesn't have some magic money tree to pay for education. WE pay for our kids education. The government just handles the check book. It never ceases to amaze me how some people represent K-12 as some government welfare system.

It keeps getting worse and worse every year too. I really don't know where all our taxes keep going because every year we have to pay more and more out of pocket for supplies. "Required donation" is one of those oxymorons that just pisses us off to no end. Every year we get a list of supplies each classroom needs and we are EXPECTED to supply this out of pocket and give to each teacher. Stuff like pencils, paper, paper towels, scissors, glue, tape, markers, rulers, notebooks. Seriously??!! It makes you wonder if ALL our taxes are going towards salaries now. How can they not have a budget for these kind of materials?

72_os writes "That's it I'm moving to Nazi Germonia [sic] . . . That's it I'm moving to Austria . . . Nazi Austria that is". WTF, man? Why are you obsessed with Nazis? Are you aware that the Nazis haven't been in control in those countries for 70 years? I don't get it.

I have nothing to add to the debate about the economic benefits (or lack thereof) of unrestricted immigration except to give props to fomer_stripper, who actually cites facts and statistics in support of her well-reasoned position.

Illegals and their extended families represent well north of 10% of the residents of California. Think they may be contributing to the $20+ billion that California collects in sales and use taxes?

For those who ranted about schools and property taxes, illegals pay property taxes too, albeit through rent. So why shouldn't their children have the same educational rights as anyone else who contributes into the system?

Oh, and what most illegals get from the government for their legal kids is a pittance, unless they have disabled kids who qualify for medicaid and disability benefits (and that is a small %). Even with legal kids, they don't get subsidized housing since the illegal parents cannot live in it. SNAP/WIC is limited to coverage for the kids, with the illegal parents excluded from the household number formula.. Illegals also don't get healthcare coverage of any kind - even if the legal kids do.

And if we want to get illegals to stop using emergency rooms as primary care centers, the simplest solution is to let/make them buy health insurance like everyone else. Voila, problem solved.

Even if we deported all of the illegals today, the legal kids that remained (and many of them likely would with extended family) would still qualify for all of that stuff, so you are not going to solve the supposed problem (even if the costs outweigh the contributions, which hasn't been established here) by tearing families apart. Unless of course one of you whack jobs is a supporter of deporting U.S. citizens as well.

I've wondered if illegal immigrants with drivers licenses have been voting for democrats in elections already. We don't have a way. to prove elections are valid without using electronic means. no paper trail. All this concern about hacking, stolen identities, and we have elections verified by nothing but electronic methods and I'm not certain that illegals haven't already been voting with state issued driver licenses. I can understand illegals voting for more giveaways for themselves by voting for a democrat. It wouldn't completely surprise me if democrats plan to give illegals amnesty, legalize them all, and expect to get reelected when all the illegals become legal. That way the democrats can give away all the funding all Americans already here who have worked all their lives for can get robbed by having to share limited government funds with all the new immigrants.

I think if you break our laws by illegally coming here, you should have to pay fines that cost more than it does to come here legally. You should be required to learn English. You should be required to do everything legal immigrants must do as far as learning and being educated about our country. I'd let them get on a path to become a US citizen but they would have to pay all of our taxes like we do plus fines that end up costing them more than if they came here legally. That's the only way in my opinion to deter illegal immigration. You break the law, you pay or serve time in our military.
I would like to see immigrants also taught economics like if our government takes x amount of your paycheck and promises everyone free college education, free medical care or subsidized care, free this, free that, when the government already can not pay all it's bills, then it will eventually cost the worker more when the givernment needs more money and must take it from the people. It's simple but if you vote democrat, you either don't understand or don't care, or might be an illegal. There is another option of either being stupid or seeing only the world with rose colored glasses on. I think some of my relatives have rose colored glasses.

Republicans keep shooting themselves in the foot as well. Trump would likely lose against Hillary due to angering large voting blocks of the US. He's either an idiot to think he could get elected or made a deal with the Clintons in my opinion, heads he wins the top job, tails, he hands over the top job to the cLintons by running against them and already angered Hispanic voters and a number of women. He could lie the whole time and plan massive tax cuts for the rich.
The democrats have an edge as having portrayed themselves as champion of the poor and middle class while the republicans always seem to want tax cuts that give the most to the rich. I'd like to see them counter by proposing tax increases on the truly rich having assets over 5 million and tax cuts on everyone with less. The 1% have a large percentage of all assets already. No tax increases or very limited increases on everyone else. Leave people's retirement accounts they have been saving all their lives alone.
The democrats have proposed a 1% tax on people's life savings every time they buy and sell something in a retirement account or anytime you buy and sell a stock or possible other things. This would rob the middle class 401k accounts and other retirement accounts. Think you saved up 100k or 500k over your life for retirement but then buy and sell stocks just 10 times, well that will cost you 10% of your life savings, either $10,000 or $50,000 of your life savings. That has been Sanders and Hillary's proposals for or futures. That would be a huge tax without even buying anything that you got to keep. Next thing you know they would need more money and add a percentage tax to everything you buy. See a $25,000 car you like? How about a 20% tax on top. an extra $5,000 , lap dances will likely get added in as well, probably 20% tax on laps, spend $200, pay an extra $40, democrats like to spend money when the country already owes over 98 trillion when you add in all the future liabilities. If I remember correctly, that might be over $500,000 for every 4 people in the US. The US already has a spending problem and the Democrats just don't get it. It won't go on forever. It will result in an economic catastrophe. Possibly the elimination of our currency as is if the democrats keep spending more and more without the economy growing much faster.
The sad truth is though, the republicans don't appear a whole lot smarter. I will say their policies are better in some ways. I'm not happy with either party.

Shark, I'm in agreement about giving the illegals a way to become contributing citizens, even if it means fining them and making sure that they pay taxes. I believe that many would jump at the chance.

I am a bit tired of hearing this "breaking the law" nonsense though. The only reason why they aren't legal to begin with is that there is no way for most of them to come here legally anymore, especially once the "chain immigration" route was cut off in the 90s. So instead they either sneak in or overstay visas. The sad reality is that working a shitty, low paying under the table job and living in a poor immigrant neighborhood here still provides a much better life than living in a place where food and clean water are scarce and other things that we take for granted, like electricity, modern plumbing and telephones, are either unavailable or economically inaccessible.

Well I get tired of hearing about this breaking the law nonsense every time an officer pulls me over or I get fined or warned about something too. We are a nation of laws though and people legally here get fined all the time regardless if you agree or not about this nonsense about breaking the law. Now if I was in the Obama administration, you could call it nonsense and not even face a fine or worry about going to court. That is what you call above the law. If the people agreed that we should legally allow a whole lot more immigrants come here, then they can call their congressmen to let them know.

If illegals are voting in elections, then Republicans might be able to get a whole lot of votes by suggesting a path to become legal. They could include legislation that trains the illegals in economics as well so that they understand how the government constantly taxing and spending more and promising more will reduce their own take home pay even though they were promised more by the democrats. I'm paying a whole lot more for health care and getting less health care thanks to the democrats. I in the middle class. It was all lies when the democrats said it wouldn't cost any more. They may be able to find a handful of people who came out ahead but the vast majority pays more now I believe.

Thanks Mr Deuce.

Regarding breaking laws, that's exactly what they are doing. We can say "they are doing it for a better life" but when that "better life" means taking money American tax payers paid into is where I have a problem. If one wants to support these families, be my guest but I don't. Here's the thing and that is any employer who hires them is breaking the law. That is a fact. I guarantee if we cut welfare and made it harder to work here many would self deport. Others wouldn't, but each situation needs to be looked at case by case. Those working hard I would consider letting them stay but the others should be deported. Why don't have enough resources to support them. If we keep allowing anyone to come here and ignore illegal immigration we will become a nation of uneducated people, which will make us a third world country. Many years ago uneducated people came here but there were plenty of jobs and no welfare. Neither is the case now and many do come for welfare. On top of it the costs are more than that. Look at how many schools now have to hire bilingual teachers or bilingual people in general. Many times I see in the paper "bilingual required" and lately seeing it more often than not. I do Speak Spanish, but what about those Americans who don't, should they be required to learn Spanish to communicate with those who can't speak English? People always say something like it's good for kids to learn another language and I agree but they shouldn't be forced to learn Spanish to get a job like this. Incidentally, yes in Europe many people speak several languages but notice the one they learn early and that is English. The reason is it's a business language. One company that offered me a job (over 10 years ago) was looking to hire someone in another job who spoke French because they did a lot of dealings with Quebec. This makes sense. Same thing with dealing with foreign tourists and the like. Learning Spanish to work at welfare? Not right. Iput in bilingual on Craigslist and got 747 responses. https://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/ofc/5…. That ad (and there are several others)are from WIC and all say "Spanish fluency required". Notice they say nothing about English required?

Rick, you mention taxes and all of that and here's the reality. Most of them don't have houses so if anything are paying rental taxes and sales tax. I pay all of that yet I have no kids so going by that logic I should get something for all that money. I don't, years ago when I was down and out (before dancing)I worked a minimum wage job and could barely afford anything. I applied for assistance and was turned down. Why do people here illegally deserve more than me? Many of the kids become non contributing members of society (look at the amount of illegitimacy of the kids). Also, with regards to pay, most are paid under the table so they aren't paying taxes. Some have fake ID's so they are committing a crime when they work. Getting back to the sales tax, many foreign tourists pay a lot in sales tax yet they don't get anything out of it, yet they are here legally. They aren't living here but are paying tax on food they eat, where they stay, souvenirs and the rest.

It is silly to believe that these people are going to starve and suffer in their home countries just to avoid breaking an immigration law here. We have guys on this board who break laws all the time for far less noble or necessary reasons - namely to get their dicks wet. So to hear the "law and order" argument on this board, of all places, kinda' makes me chuckle, lol.

And I disagree sharply with the notion that cutting down welfare will lead to self deportation. As I pointed out above, most immigrants qualify for little if any direct support and what they do receive for their American born kids is nominal in most cases (absent some disability). Even with no support whatsoever, they would still have it better here than back home.

And I think we have already debunked the notion that immigrants do not contribute through paying sales taxes, on everything year-round, and property taxes via rent to property owners. Going further to say that it is still not fair because their kids get more than childless Americans or tourists do is kinda' getting silly.

To former stripper I bet most strippers don't pay a lot of taxes and don't declare all, if any of their earnings yet many of them have multiple children by different fathers , get aid to dependent children from the taxpayers get food stamps etc. and lots of other giveaways education grants housing subsidies and more Too many people here are like the pot calling the kettle, I guess it's just the question of who's going to pay right.

Twentyfive, that is true too but that's another topic. While I don't approve of strippers doing that, at least they are supposed to be here. Illegals aren't. We also don't have to press 1 for English for them.

Rick, why is it silly to say their kids get more than poor childless Americans? it's not. It's not fair this happens and even though it doesn't affect me now, it did. Yes if you eliminated welfare from the freeloaders they would go back home. The ones who work hard and take nothing would not but those are the ones I'd be willing to let stay. The reason many of them suffer in their home country is because they are too lazy to work and their country doesn't have welfare for them. Sp what if they pay sales and rent taxes? so do others who receive nothing. If I went to another country I'd expect to pay taxes on everything I did, including food and hotel. Did you watch that one video I linked? she had just crossed over the river to the USA to have her baby. She wasn't here long enough to have paid any taxes at all. Even if someone pays them many times they take more than they pay in. Like that woman I linked, which was from CBS News.

Won't matter. We lions are taking over. You're all a bunch of damn dirty hairless apes to us. Muslim, Christian, Hindu, whatever. You'll all be on your knees crying out to your false gods saying "don't let the lion eat me". You know what will happen then?

I'll give you a hint. It rhymes with "schmildebeest".

72_os writes "That's it I'm moving to Nazi Germonia [sic] . . . That's it I'm moving to Austria . . . Nazi Austria that is". WTF, man? Why are you obsessed with Nazis? Are you aware that the Nazis haven't been in control in those countries for 70 years? I don't get it.

It's called comedy, sorry if it offended you

My entire point was that this is such a polarizing discussion most of the so called facts are debunked with a little research and yes I do have a particular point of view. I will tell anyone who wants to hear it I run a business in the construction industry and it is harder than it has ever been to fill job vacancies that we have , also before you ask these jobs start at $12. To $15 per hour require a training apprenticeship and pay for a qualified employee averages $800 to $1200 per week plus benefits so yes I think that we need more immigrants not less because our citizens do not seem to be interested in performing this type of work. What I am talking about is if you xenophobic folks don't stop talking about shit you don't know anything about that is what is really killing American business. Everyone can't just push paper from one side of a desk to another some of us need to manufacture shit some of us need to build things or else there won't be any wealth to hand down to the next generation. Sorry about the rant but it's the real truth.

former_stripper posted: "The reason many of them suffer in their home country is because they are too lazy to work and their country doesn't have welfare for them."
_______________________________________________________________________

Ok, now this is about the most ridiculous thing I have read yet in this thread and that's saying a lot. They don't get welfare here either except for a pittance of food support for their kids, which doesn't pay the rent or anything else. You don't seem to be getting that for some reason. They come here because wages are so low in so many impoverished countries that food is hard for them to buy. In some places, like Cuba and Venezuela, it can barely be found at all. You really need to do a little research before you say ridiculous stuff like that.

The reality is that immigrants are often the hardest working people in this country and take the jobs that homegrown natives will not take. The reason is that they have to do these jobs to live because...read slowly now...they - do - not - qualify - for - welfare - or - most - other - forms - of - support. If they don't work, they don't have a place to live. If they don't work, they don't eat. So they take the jobs that nobody else wants. Twenty highlighted one.type of job. Others include house and office cleaners, lawn care, farm work, slaughter houses, fish processing plants, and a variety of other jobs. Sadly, American kids are being raised too soft and spoiled to work these jobs anymore and would rather ring a cash register for $9 per hour than get sweaty and dirty for a few more bucks per hour.

Wow, just wow.

In general, immigrants work (usually the low end jobs that any poor American could get if they aren't lazy); they are NOT stealing jobs from us; immigrants pay taxes; immigrants' spending increases revenue substantially. As to why they are "illegals" as some like to call them, it might have something to do with America's flawed immigration act which actually started in the late 1800s via the Chinese Exclusion Act, fueled by prejudice, and spilled into the 90s and now this millenium. That is why it's considerably easier for people in many European countries to migrate here legally because we have quotas for each country, and allow higher quotas for developed countries (the reasons are obvious; they have more money and are more likely to bring over money or the potential for more money).

The "waiting list" for prospective immigrants seeking legal immigration from underdeveloped countries is egregious. Anyone want to guess what the waitlist is for an F4 Visa from the Phillipines? About 20 years. The F4 visa is for brothers and sisters of immigrants with US citizenship. My stepmom is a legal immigrant from the Phillipines (mail order bride). Her many brothers and sisters will possibly be waiting decades for their visas to get processed while they slave away in their poverty just to have a meal each day. In Mexico, there are people in the F1 visa category (sons and daughters of US citizen immigrants), who have been waiting for their visas to be processed since the mid fucking 90s. So in case anyone was wondering why so many "illegals" are here, that is a huge reason.

Taking into account that this nation was founded on immigration (although some was forced, like the trans atlantic slave trade), I think immigration reform is completely necessary.

Anyway, I like Bernie. He isn't a silver spoon snob and seems to give more of a fuck about the average American than any other candidates I've seen. Donald Trump is a fucking joke, and will not win against the Democratic nominee in part because he will fail to get the Hispanic/Latino vote. Really, the republicans have failed miserably in these last couple of elections to nominate an electable candidate.

Fwiw, I meant to say America's flawed immigration policy*, not its immigration act which there have been many, starting with the one I mentioned which I believe was 1888 or around then.

1882*! Now I'm just hogging the thread...

Rick if that is the case, why do so many come here to have their kids born on Medicaid? I posted a video (from a non partisan source)and several links. Why are you denying this? I'm not talking legal immigrants, to come here legally is very hard. I'm talking people that shouldn't be here.So what if they receive a pittance they shouldn't receive anything at all. The one in the video never paid in, why is she entitled to taxpayer money?

Nina, you're talking two different types of people. Legal immigrants do have a hard time coming here. They tend to be educated. This whole taking jobs no one else is not true, because remember years ago Americans did many of those jobs. Now employers will hire illegals at slave wages and there's the problem. Construction used to be a good paying job until employers became greedy.

Bernie seems like a decent guy but he does mention a few things that wouldn't work. I do think he's against outsourcing which is important to me.His problem is Hillary seems to have the mainstream Democrats. The other Democrats at this point have no chance but you never know. On the Republican side way too many nuts. Donald Trump isn't serious, I wonder if he's there just as a joke. As for the others, most are just not good candidates. Apparently the one I have the most in common with is Rand Paul but part of that is because his father was always sort of an outsider and I like outsiders. He has no chance though. I was hoping Elizabeth Warren ran, I like her a lot.

To former stripper whats wrong with the pay offer I am describing how am I greedy ? I am telling you that you don't have a clue to what is going on with American small businesses. I know many people in my industry any of them will tell you that there are good jobs with wages that are more than fair that are not being filled because there is a real lack of qualified young people willing to do this work. Most of the politicians are the same on both right & left lots of scapegoating going on but no one is offering a real solution.

"I know many people in my industry any of them will tell you that there are good jobs with wages that are more than fair that are not being filled because there is a real lack of qualified young people willing to do this work."

That's true. The articles written in local publications are incredible. Positions are going unfilled. Out of 100 job applicants, 90 either fail the drug test of lack any BASIC job skills. 8 don't come back for an interview. The 2 that are hired either don't show up for work or don't come back for day 2

@former_stripper: I don't need to watch a video to know what illegal immigrants can receive here in the U.S. I see and hear about it every day. Yes their U.S. born children are covered by medicaid, since of course they are U.S. citizens. So what do you want to do about it, start deporting U.S. citizens too because their parents were illegal immigrants?

But to your earlier contention, the notion that they come here or stay because of the nominal benefits their kids receive is ludicrous. Those benefits don't pay rent, or buy very much food, or pay for utilities, transportation, clothing. etc., etc., so they work their asses off at low wage jobs. But they do so to escape the crushing poverty in their home countries, including food insecurity, and yes, to bear children that are U.S. citizens and have a chance for a better life. They want their kids to have the American Dream. Even if their kids got zilch, they would still stay because they would still have it much better than in their home countries, where basic food alone can cost more than their monthly salaries. You really need to do some research on this.

"Nina, you're talking two different types of people. Legal immigrants do have a hard time coming here. They tend to be educated. This whole taking jobs no one else is not true, because remember years ago Americans did many of those jobs. Now employers will hire illegals at slave wages and there's the problem. Construction used to be a good paying job until employers became greedy." -formerstripper...... *sigh*

Do you want to known how to solve that problem? Immigration Reform, so people don't have to resort to coming here illegally because they don't want to wait decades to get here. They do stimulate economy and most of them work. You think that all the Mexicans that come here illegally immediately get on welfare and commit crimes, I know you feel this way because I've seen you spew those generalizations many times before.

I don't need to do research on this subject. I wrote a 12 pg term paper on the subject, paired with a presentation on the matter for my "Ethical Issues in Policy Making" course I took at the university in which I attend. Oh, and I received an "A" on both the term paper and the presentation, as well as an "A" as my final grade in the class. Lol. I am educated.

To former stripper I just want to know how you consider the wages I posted for the construction industry jobs to be slave wages and how did I & the rest of the employers I my industry become greedy. I think you have unrealistic expectations if you think $40k -$60k + benefits before factoring in overtime pay is "slave labor" and I am unaware of any hires that are onsite in any trades not having proper paperwork I'm not naive and sure there might be some but those people are paid at the same rates as everybody else.

I wouldn't stress out too much about illegals voting illegally. It's difficult getting Spanish speaking citizens and poor people to vote every four years. It's why on non presidential election years republicans do well; old white people show up in droves while poor minorities stay home (or have to work two jobs). Vote by mail helps a lot in stated like Oregon, but it's only in presidential years the legal Latino vote comes even close to representing itself properly at the polls.

"old white people show up in droves while poor minorities stay home (or have to work two jobs)."


No.

Citizens of all colors with shit to lose come out and vote on off year elections. This is for the Congress and that is the closest they can come to voting what they need. The four year terms are sugar daddy votes with one guy "to rule them all." Well, the system doesn't work that way.

Deogol, check the real stats. Midterm elections are dominated by old whites. Although usually the party which doesn't have the presidency gets better turnout in midterms.

Twenty Five, actually I do know what's happening because I own a small business myself. There are many Americans who would work if given a chance. I can't imagine there are many people who need jobs who wouldn't be happy with $12 hour. That is assuming they could do those jobs. Besides, when I was a teen I worked in restaurants and they hired illegals strictly to pay them slave wage. That's not only unfair to the Americans but unfair to illegals too who are being used.

Nina, where did I say Mexican illegals? I didn't, nor did I mention that. In fact many of the illegals aren't even Mexican. There are illegals of all different races, like Eastern Europeans. Why don't need immigration reform to make it easier for unskilled people (of any race). Why would we want to import more unskilled workers? We don't have many unskilled jobs anymore. Why should we allow more unskilled from any country? welfare aside, what logic is it to bring in people that would displace Americans, including Hispanics. Actually, I don't think Mexican Americans commit crimes anymore than any other race but illegals (of any race)are committing a crime by coming here illegals. Also, I know plenty of Mexican Americans and all of them are here legally and Mexicans are the largest group that come here legally.

Rick, I didn't say all, I was talking about those who do come for welfare, like the video I posted. There are many illegals (legal immigrants too btw)who come just for welfare. Should we allow more like that to come? We can't allow everyone,nor shall we. Most European countries limit who can immigrate there except for cases like refugees. In several countries they require a college degree. Most illegals are uneducated and many of them do depend on welfare. One of the reasons is because employers exploit them. In that case I blame the employers and when they hire someone here illegally they are committing a crime.

to former stripper
You just don't get it, right now before the holiday season gets in full swing I have 4 openings I have advertised them on job boards local newspapers I have even placed ads in out of town venues looking for workers. I get dozens of calls, set appointments to interview these people many don't show, and lack the basic integrity to make a courtesy call if there might be some problem . Of the people that do show many cant pass a drug test, some have violent felonies which make it impossible for me to hire and on the rare occasions that I actually made a hire two didn't even bother to show up for work on the start date another arrived late, well after the vehicles had left our shop, headed to the work site. so you don't need to imagine. I just gave it to you in English with reasonable punctuation and even used spell check. There is no real solution to this problem until this country wakes up and starts demanding better of our young people stop this stupid gamesmanship about immigration and whos kids get more benefits, and demand that our schools teach young people the skills that they are going need. They are going to have to work for things that they need, and they are not going to get everything that they want without putting forth a real effort, and even then, they may fall short but quitting isn't an option, and blaming others isn't an option either. In conclusion if people want to come to this country I welcome them, we need all of the help we can get, and if you actually read our history every group that has come to this country has made us better and more successful as a nation. The expansion of opportunity is what has worked time and again. Not this jingoistic crap of send them back and political immigrant bashing.

Except in the past we had many jobs. We don't now. I don't know what kinds of jobs you are hiring for but if you are hiring illegals you are committing a crime because it's against the law to hire people who can't legally work here. I do get it, I know plenty of unemployed people who would jump at the chance to work a decent job with decent wages. If a job truly can't find someone (like picking fruit)there are migrant worker visas. What's wrong with giving a felon a chance? I know people who committed crimes who can't find jobs yet would love work. If they work they may be able to get their lives in order. The main problem many employers make is assuming everyone can do everything. I've seen the most ridiculous job requirements for jobs that don't even fit together because an employer is either stupid or trying to save money. I've gotten calls for jobs not even in my job skill set because it was an unskilled job and employers think anyone would be open to these jobs. Employers need to find people with the correct job skills, not just anyone.

I do agree we need to be teaching kids better, but that's a different problem and it goes to entitlement. Too many kids are going to college who shouldn't. Instead they should learn a trade. But, once again how can they work in a trade if the employer is going to save money by hiring illegals at slave wages?

Another thing: I did mention that I would be open to some illegals staying, such as those truly working jobs Americans don't want (like picking fruit). I'm not open to those staying who don't contribute, or are criminals.

Do you want this pervert to stay? http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/…

How about them? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B65pLsah…

How about this murderer? http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/03/us/san-fra…

I know most illegals aren't committing these types of crimes but these ones should definitely be deported. Of course I know many Americans commit crimes but these are people who don't belong here.

I have never hired anyone that I am not legally allowed to hire and I resent your implying that I am or even would .
Also I said I will not hire anyone who has a violent felony on there record not anyone who has ever been convicted of a crime. if you had read my post from yesterday I said there was an apprenticeship required so yes we are willing to train new hires who qualify and we often do. This is standard in our industry and I am active in several industry associations believe me when I tell you that there are good jobs out there for people that are going begging. Jobs with advancement potential for folks that want that, and we are not getting a lot of traction.

You claimed illegals were hard workers, but that implies you either hire them, know someone who does, or just listening to rhetoric. If you aren't hiring them then I'm not addressing you specifically, but many employers claim they can't find qualified workers. I don't know why you aren't getting good applicants, but around here the only jobs that go begging are the unskilled jobs but requesting skilled labor.

to former stripper
"You claimed illegals were hard workers"

I never claimed anything of the sort, I merely stated that we were not getting job applicants that would do the work. For your information the situation is the same all over the United States I know this for a fact not by reading some shit written by someone with a particular point of view, but by speaking with business owners that are in the same industry as my own.
if you feel you need to respond feel free, but be sure to read what I have written, not scan through it and make assumptions, please base any reply to me to what I have actually stated not on your assumptions about what I am doing.