Loaning Money To A Stripper {sigh} Lesson Learned

tenishomo: " Don't lend money to strippers unless you understand that it is likely to be considered a gift or tip by the reciprient. "

Ok, last month you are posing as the big expert her on the minds of strippers and how to treat them, and this month it looks like you can't even figure out the basic like don't "loan" them money unless you are prepared to kiss it goodbye.

Man are you one idiotic CHUMP. (And I am so shocked that your studies of 18th century homo poetry did not help you avert having to learn this lesson).

I think the real problem was that you expected ALL of her work to go toward paying off the debt, versus part of it. Imagine if you just bought a big ticket item, like a car or a house, and ALL of your paycheck was seized until that purchase was payed off. I know, it's an extreme example, but the principle still stands. No one wants to feel like they are working for nothing today and tomorrow to pay off yesterday expense.

I don't think there's anything you can do to salvage that girl, barring throwing out the entire debt, but in the future I'd ask for a discounted service, not free, and see if that changes the situation.

I jad that happen with one dancer thatn paid the money back the first time. She wanted to worknit off a little at a time over like 4 visits. She got it paid back.This happened a couple of times Later she asked to borrow even more since there was a level of trust and she dissappeared. Quit dancing. Your lesson was cheaper rhan mine

Amen tenisbum. That not only applies to strippers. That applies to life. In certain cases, people will pay you back, but don't expect it. Makes it easier not to get mad over it.

Once had a stripper ask me to loan her a grand. I laughed in her face.

@AFriendOnTheStreets:

Valid point and good suggestion. I'm sure she had it in her mind that she "earned" that $50 and was counting on it to make her $200 per day go-home goal. To leave her with nothing might have seemed injust to her.

Personally, I didn't want to get involved with a long drawn out accounting of how much she owed. The nexy hassle would be the debate; "No I only owe you $75 not $80" with every dance. I was doing the girl a favor getting her the phone NOW instead of having her save up to buy it over a number of days or even weeks.

Trust me, the uncollectable debt is long written off to the "lessoned learned" debit side of the ledger. I was giving that girl $50 x 2 per week and another $150 every other week for OTC. She won't get another dime from me until the debt is paid in full. In effect she killed "the golden goose" because of a hissy fit over paying back $180. These strippers can be much too short sighted. Her loss not mine. She can be easily replaced. I make over $200 per hour. But for her the loss of this consistent cash flow will likely cause some hardship for her and the family she supports. Hope she's enjoys the phone.

Keep up the brilliant insights, tenishomo! I am sure many are getting mighty impressed by your depth of understanding, and you are just months away from being proclaimed forum moderator.

I guess she thought it was a gift until you hit her with the truth. IMO offering to buy her the phone didn't make any sense if you wanted money back for it later. Also she didn't get to pick out the phone and from the sounds of it you didn't tell her how much it cost.

Well that's how I see it.

@Playcity:

Fair enough points. I did ask her about buying the phone beforehand. I told her approximately how much it cost beforehand (I said $120 and it was actually $130). She did tell me that she wanted a phone with internet access. Her previous phone was one of those cheap "Star Teck" flip phones. She was absolutley delighted with the phone when she saw it. I gave her the receipt and told her she could return it if she wanted a different or better phone.

Tenis, we are only as good as our next contribution to them. If you wanted services from her, you should have worked it out in trade at the moment that you gave the phone to her. Thinking for a second that any dancer is going to relish the thought of giving away free dances, even to pay off a perceived debt, is kinda' naive.

She's done with you. Your business isn't worth her having to give you $130.

More importantly: If you loan money, doesn't matter the situation, assume that you are not going to get it back. Friends, family, co-workers, strippers, girl friend, whoever. The second it's out of your hand then kiss it goodbye and count yourself lucky if you get it back.

If you can't handle that or can't afford not to get it back, don't make the loan.

@rickdugan:

100% right. In hindsight I probably should have lenghtened the payment plan so that she was keeping something from her work and paying me back little by little each time.

When I owe somebody money, I don't consider that I'm working for free to pay back the debt. I mistakenly assumed strippers would share the same ethic. That was definitely naive.

Wouldn't it be a blessing if all life's lessons could be learned at an expense of only $130 net?

@jester214:

"She's done with you. Your business isn't worth her having to give you $130."

Yes that is the choice she seems to have made. I don't think she's going to easily be able to replace the $700/month cash flow I have been providing. My guess is she will come back within 2 weeks, all smily and touchy-feely looking for fresh money again.

She certainly hasn't called me with her new phone number yet (Bwahahahahah)

wait...

You're saying that you make $200/hr, that this girl's likely goal is $200/day, and you only pay her $150 for OTC (which I assume includes FS)?

The obvious solution to this problem is that she should find a better club to work at.

And also that you should have taken the $180 at a loss and continued getting cheap OTC, duh.

@duomaxwell:

You pay the "prevailing rate". The girl is easily replaced in my region.

That makes sense, but on some level I think that the girls must not realize that they set the rates. Is your region Ohio? Remind me to never go there.

They never pay you back. My ATF has asked for small amounts, always promising to pay me back "next month." Next month has never come. Once she asked for $5000 and I just said no. I knew I would never see the money again.

In addition to not positively ascertaining how, and apparently if, she was willing to pay it back, asking her to take it out of the dances at the club was probably not the brightest move, either. Most of that money probably goes to the club. Asking her to give that up, means she has to work twice as hard to get the club their cut.

@georgmicrodong:

Not the case. This club has a very small house payment ($6.00 if ready to work by 3pm; $11 if ready to work by 6pm; and $16 after that plus DJ tip-out). The girl gets to keep 100% of what she makes in the private dance area. VIP is $150 for 30 minutes, house takes $50 and Champaign Room is $350 for 30 minutes and house takes $100.

I live by two sayings in regards to strippers:

1. Don't fall in love with a stripper.
2. Don't loan a stripper money.

@tenis: She just wanted a freebie from you. Sure she can be replaced, and evidently so can you.

Oh no you deeint.

She didn't ask you to buy her a phone, you offered. Then you try a dick move like that? What the fuck did you expect?

Look on the bright side big guy, you can always get your Russian "mafia" connections to collect the remaining money. LMAO.....

This should be stripper loan rule number one! Never give them more than you're prepared to lose!
When I was new to the scene, I gave out loans, that were never paid back, so I learned quickly! However, as a result, I cut them off right away!
Always ask yourself, who is going to need who first? You hold the power with your wallet! For as many manipulative strippers there are out there, there are always a few who will give you what you want.
There are way too many of them out there. Leave the loan requests to another sucker!

it's easy to say "don't fall in love" and "never loan money" but when you become a regular you develop a relationship. She lets you get away with more in the VIP and grabs your dick more it's harder to live by those rules. I have loaned out money and never have been repaid back in cash. I usually just short them on payment for the next set of lap dances we do.

I learned the hard way early on, consider any money loaned to a stripper as money lost.
One time a dancer paid me back but it was more like a discount plan and she still managed to get a certain amount of money out of me each time.
I once had a dancer who was very much into me offer to do dances at half price like forever if I loaned her a certain amount of money. It may have only been $100 to $200 (I can't remember, this was years ago.)
Anyway she did dances at half price, the club wasn't getting a cut so this worked out. She often did extra dances so I ended up paying her about the same amount every time. She did this when she was working for about 2 years. That was when she said forever wore out. I really believed she thought she probably wouldn't see me more than a month or two or maybe between 4 to 8 more times when she agreed to dance at half price forever. In this case a dancers short term thinking helped me out.

The other thing I learned was that for a dancer who really likes you, forever is about 1.5 to 2 years.

After I became more experienced and stopped loaning any money, I once had a dancer who was riding with me in my car tell me about another dancer who needed a hundred or two or her drug dealer or whomever was really going to rough her up because she didn't have the money to pay off. I just said that's too bad. She didn't say another word about it.

I once got talked into loaning a dancer money. She even promised to pay me back. She didn't continue to work at the same club very long. No response on phone calls. I saw her working at another club a month or two later. She was terrified of me. She acted like I might be part of the mafia come to collect. I had already forgotten all about it for the most part. I certainly didn't make that much money but I thought of it as lost money and learned my lesson. I lost more money trying to do an internet business. I lost even more than that thinking I knew what I was doing investing in risky internet stocks in years past. I try to learn from others mistakes now.

Now that I am older and more experienced, no dancer has asked for any type of loan in over a decade. One dancer did try to go to Vegas with me. I asked her if she was paying for the airplane trip. She looked hurt and then got over it real quick.

As mentioned above, and stated by you, you did offer to buy her the phone. Then you basically stiff her for $50 worth of dances without telling her just before the dances that they would be part of her debt? Yea, a lesson for you. Strippers have such short term memory she probably forgot you were the one who bought the phone!

Maybe instead of offering to buy her the phone you should have set up some OTC fun, paid her, and then driven her directly to the phone store. Then she could have used the money she just earned from you to buy her own damn phone.

sHARK CHILL THE FUCK OUT.

She's a stripper. She's not likely to do anything you think she should.

Cash on delivery is the only arrangement you should expect, and it won;t be anything close to consistent.

Anything else can go either way. You are gambling every time you talk to one and certainly every time you give her money.

I've been asked several times for loans and I've only provided one fully realizing that it would never be repaid. But I did it in good conscience given that I made the check out to her lender (ie school) to get her out of debt. So she never touched the actual money personally. Of course she said it was a loan, but never paid it back. But since I always support education, I justified it. Whenever this topic comes up with current dancers, I usually tell them 'that this never ends well'. And they usually get the message.

Bottom line. Don't lend unless you're willing to do it with no strings attached.

I take this attitude with family and friends too. Never make loans at all. If thy need the money that bad and you want to help, just give it to them but never expect it back. You're just asking to be avoided when they can't pay it back.

There is a reason the pink site is filled with questions on how to rebuild lost credit ratings...

"how to rebuild lost credit ratings..."

Learn to manage $$$$. More PERSONS than dancers have this issue.

I must be doing something right. 3 weeks ago a favorite stripper asked me to loan her $20 to make her tip out. The following week she came over and gave me two outstanding dances as payment. Yeah. I know it was only $20 but it is the principal.

Entertainment of another kind - strippers getting cars repo'ed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-o338J69… Pt 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WUw7dRcl… Pt 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDo-4RDA9…

tumbling dice , get a brain and ignore me if my posts seem to be so important that you can't will yourself to do so. There is an ignore button. That way you can fucking chill out.

Click the x under my name to ignore me or anyone else.

Fuck you SharkFucker you old jerkoff,Got my mind on my money and my money on my mind.

If your 'loan' was to have an unusual 'repayment' method you should have mentioned it when you made the loan or at least before going in for the 4 for 50 dances and not spring it on her afterward. Bear in mind that she had a tip-out based on either her number of dances or anticipated revenue from those dances so you weren't taking your payment from something that cost her nothing but time.

The real rule one is have a clear understanding of the deal before starting and that certainly includes nonstandard payments.

Did you get it in writing?

Strippers can't write

@stenton1:

"You hold the power with your wallet!'

I think this is RULE #1 in all dealings with strippers. Whenever in double, do back to this rule.

By giving her a loan, the power of your wallet is now under HER control, not yours. Of course it depends on the ethics of the girl and I'm sure there is some percentage that would pay you back every dime; but I'm guessing not the general population as a whole.

Lots of good advice here. Don't lend money to anybody unless you are fully prepared to consider it a gift.

@Inno123:

No she didn't. See my post upthread. This club doesn't charge the girl by the dance, but a flat fee depending on when she walks in the door and is ready to work. The repayment DID in fact cost her nothing but time.

I thought we did have a clear understanding at the time the deal was made. She clearly understood and agreed when I gave her the phone that I expected repayment from future ITC and OTC services. Seems she forgot her own agreement when the time for the first repayment came about an hour later.

As I said before, if I had to do it all over again, I would have probably paid her $25 and told her that I was applying the other $25 to the debt; that way she would have has something in hand for the effort. But I just didn't want to get involved with being an accountant for stripper loans.

Ok see I understand wanting to keep in contact with her for your sexual needs sso buying her a phone is fine and dandy. Just tell yourself this ia an investment for you, not for her. If you wanted her to pay you back, should have gotten her a tracphone with a certain amount of minutes for the month. Not a 180 phone though while modest for your povlets (nothing is modest for me since I'm a cheap fuck), then again, she didn't outright ask you, so she had no reason to pay back what you randomly offered. On the other hand, all you did was pay in advance for lapdances (that's the 4 for 50. Right? I hope these dances cost 20). That was dumb. Should have let her ass work herself (or let insurance handle her phone dummy) to get the phone money. Because nobody likes to work for free. Let her choose what to buy witht thephone money she worked for. So yeah...just stick to the tracphone route or just get a new ATF since you feel hollow now

In all fairness, this story has to be told as well.

My very first OTC lady called me from Florida and was short money on her vacation. She asked if I could wire her $50. I sent $100 with a $12 fee. She thanked me and promised to pay me back in OTC services.

While in Kentucky, she asked me to pick up a carton of coffin nails because the price is about $1.30 per pack less than in Ohio. She also promised to pay me back at our next OTC.

At our next OTC, she cooked me dinner, we did our thing and at the end she said "That is $200 minus the $112 from Florida and minus the $37 for the cigarettes equals $51. Paid her what she asked for and everybody left happy.

That's the way I THOUGHT this kind of arrangement should work every time. One thing you can say about the consistency of strippers is that there is none :-)

@Estafador:

Thanks dude. Good analysis.

And for the curious: 1) she's already been replaced and 2) she has already approached me to apologize and asked for more dances.

I was right on both counts.

You hold the power with your wallet. Absolute truth there.

Hmm I understand why you would be trusting then. Still everyone's different so don't expect the same results every time. Just curious, did you ever ask the first otc girl why the hell she needed coffin nails?

@Estafador:

{smile} I have to remember that you're a bit younger than most of the rest of us here.

"Coffin nails" is a slang term for cigarettes.

Oh I get the joke now. Haha wow, that's a funny name for them.

"Don't lend money to anybody unless you are fully prepared to consider it a gift."

@Tenis: This, especially when one is talking about strippers. You seem to get it, but then you start going down other side roads by trying to determine how you could have done this better or speculating upon why she didn't meet her end of the bargain.

You can do these mental gymnastics all day long, but it doesn't change the reality that most of these girls have a cash and carry mentality. In their views, money flows one way (as lopaw pointed out). It just is. Nothing you could do would likely change the way she would have felt about having the cell phone cost extracted from her via future services. I have no doubt that she expected you to chalk it up as a gift to your favorite dancer - many PLs would - and was surprised when you did not pay her for her dances.

I have never "lent" a dime to a dancer and I never will. Too much headache with zero upside. When I am pitched a song and dance by a favorite dancer about how she needs something immediately, I instead provide her with expanded earning opportunities. ;)

Many a dancer can barely tolerate what they do and do/bare it for the sole reason of the $$$ they are being given/paid.

If they are not that comfortable w/ the thought of doing what they do but do it anyway b/c of the $$$; I would think the thought of doing for “free” (even in terms of paying a debt) is something many of them can tolerate even less.

@rickdugan:

My hindsight discussions were just some "armchair quarterbacking" after the fact on how I could have made that situation a bit more palatable.

Trust me brother, no more loans to strippers - EVER!

@Papi_Chulo:

I think you are exactly right. She got the phone in her hand without having to pay for it. Although she promised to pay for it with future services, I don't think the consequences of that promise rerally sank in until she was directly confronted with the reality of providing services that resulted in zero cash in her hands afterward.

I'm sure the red light went off in her head, "Hey! Thats $50 that I was going to use for food for my kids, to pay the electric bill or buy blow for my unemployed boyfriend".

I'm sure she considers me a first class son-of-a-bitch for holding her to her agreement; but I didn't notice her making any effort to return the phone to me.

Stripper rule #1: Cash and merchandise only flows one way . . . towards them. The only power you have is control of that cash. More times than not, you lose it when you make a loan. Plain and simple.

@tenisbum1776: "The repayment DID in fact cost her nothing but time."

Unfortunately, that turns out not to be the case, since in the club, time *is* money. The time she spent with you *could* have been spent with somebody who actually paid, thus you *did* cost her money.

Had you asked about that particular scenario *prior* to getting the dances, rather than springing it on her, she *might* (though probably not) have agreed to that, or maybe a reduced price.

Never fuck with a girl's income in the club; that's her bread and butter. Outside the club time is generally not income producing, so arranging for repayment that way would have been infinitely preferable.

I believe you got lucky with the other dancer deducting your cost from what she was charging. It was fair which probably led you to believe many dancers were like that. Of course as others said, she didn't agree to purchase a particular phone from you nor pay for it immediately out of her money she was making that night.


Sorry for my language to the rest of the adults here, apparently a juvenile decided to butt in. I used ignore.

Was....I just put on ignore? Wow, that's horrible! What did I do?

Hmm, estafador, i don't think it was you got ignored. By my reading Sharkhunter put that guy that raged at him for no apparent reason up there a bit on ignore.

A lot of good advice has already been offered so I'll skip that. I'm still trying to wrap my head around, though, how someone who doesn't appear to be a noob expected this situation to work out.

EPILOGUE:

Went to the club last night guess who was the first person to rush over and greet me when I sat down? That's right the lady this discussion has been talking about for the last 50 comments or so.

The first thing she did was APOLOGIZE to me for being so rude and unappreciative. She said she was having some financial problems at home and her initial reaction was that she was shocked, angry and suprised when I applied that $50 to the money she owed me. After thinking about it for a couple of days, she decided that what I did was right and fair since she knew she owed the money. It was the shock of doing the work and not having the money in hand afterward that caused her to behave in this manner. She said she mistakenly felt like she had been used.

She showed me the new phone. Told me how much she loved it and immediately gave me her new telephone number.

STRIPPER TRANSLATION: Your damn right I was pissed off. I grinded my ass off for those 4 dances and wanted my money. But after a few days of working in a tough and ultra competitive club environment WITHOUT your regular customer support my income level dropped significantly. I was watching you give MY money to those other whores and that pissed me off even more. Therefore I decided I'd better bullshit you and try to get you back as a regaular customer again, even if it means I have to begrudgingly pay back the $130 I admit that I owe you.

Always the gentleman, I apoligized to her and told her I handled the situation in an insensitive manner myself. I told her I should not have demanded that 100% of the earnings for the 4 for $50 be applied to the debt. I should have allowed her to make lesser payments. We agreed that would be how things would work until the debt was paid.

Anyway, we ended up in the private dance room where she gave me a special "make-up" 4 for $50. I asked her if I could pay her $25 and apply $25 to the debt and she smiled and said "Of course".

All's well that ends well. We'll see if she can hold my interest long enough for me to get my remaining $105 back.

All that ongoing drama over $130 - LOL. I don't know tenis, but I probably would have written it off as a gift and moved on. That is just way too much drama and nonsense to keep dealing with over short $$$.

I'm sorry I can't read this whole thread, but just basing off the title alone. YOU.CAN.NOT.LOAN.MONEY.TO.A.STRIPPER.[PERIOD]

I like to think of cash in a strip club to the equivalent to tokens at an arcade. Once you take that cash out of the ATM, you can deem that shit valueless beyond the exchange for dances and tips.

When you insert the coins into Ms. Pac-Man, you'll have some fun, but you ain't getting any coins back. At best, you'll get some tickets from the Skee ball machine. That bitch is nasty.

Excellent stripper language translation. You should work for the UN.

Doc_Holiday, arcade? Ms. Pac man? Showing your age dude!

"I like to think of cash in a strip club to the equivalent to tokens at an arcade. Once you take that cash out of the ATM, you can deem that shit valueless beyond the exchange for dances and tips."

I disagree. That is the thinking of a casual strip club customer looking for nothing more than a few drinks and a few dances on his once per month outing.

I view the cash in my pocket as a tool, and a powerful one at that if used properly. Its purpose is to get me that which I seek, be it simple fun entertainment or services of a more carnal nature. Girls who make my night better get rewarded and the others do not. I also do not reward clubs that run gimmicks or give crappy service.

Net-net, I have no problem walking out with most of my money in my pocket if I am not enjoying myself for any reason. There is always tomorrow (or next week, or whatever).

Yes, we all know you're the hyena in this savanna.

Doc, it has more to do with mindset than the size of the wad - LOL. When I was younger, I just went less often and targeted more budget friendly clubs.

For example, one could sit in Pandoras, watch naked women and drink all night for a total cost of under $50 (cover and cost of booze at liquor store). Then when the mood strikes, one could partake of some number of solid $10 LDs.

Hey, go yee forth like a robot and blow your monthly SC budget in places where you get bad ROI if that is your preference. But whether I am blowing larger sums or simply trying to stretch out $150 (and I remember what that was like), I always strive to get the most from it.

Sure it has to do with mindset. If you're looking to pay for sex, I'm sure you're right, the more money you have the more milage you can force, as money can be a Hell of a manipulator.

I think that's why we don't see eye to eye on strip clubs; I see it as a playground, a place to goof with the gazelles, you're there to take down the weakest in the herd.

If I ever get to place in my life where I need to take strip clubs seriously, I'll let you know.

I'll also let tennisbum know so I can get a good intrest rate on my stripper loans.

No, no, Doc. The RickyBoy has got it right. If you pay a hooker on the street for sex it proves nothing, but if you pay a hooker who works in a strip club and doesn't call herself a hooker then the same paying for see proves you are a RICH STUD.

Also strip clubs pump in plenty of O2 to cure STDs.

...and short treasuries.

I've made small loans to (carefully selected) dancers, never been stiffed.

It's funny how several people made you out to be the bad guy for loaning money to someone in need. I wonder if some people fear being banned from the Internet for breaking the sacred WWW rule of always being a complete shithead.

----- If I ever get to place in my life where I need to take strip clubs seriously, I'll let you know. -----

Thought I'd point out that you ARE on a strip club discussion board. ;)

----- Sure it has to do with mindset. If you're looking to pay for sex, I'm sure you're right, the more money you have the more milage you can force, as money can be a Hell of a manipulator.

I think that's why we don't see eye to eye on strip clubs; I see it as a playground, a place to goof with the gazelles, you're there to take down the weakest in the herd. ---

First, are you a woman? Of course a guy is going to get what he can if he has the money and inclination to do so.

But my comments were not about p4p or manipulation, but rather about controlling your own experience. The Pandoras example had nothing to do with sex, but rather directing your spending to where it does the most good - cheaper drinking, more time in the club and more LDs at the time of your choosing. I don't know about you, but it ain't much of a "playground" to me if my night is done after 3 drinks and 3 dances lasting a total of 10 minutes or less.