discussion comment
16 years ago
Well, I hesitate to open a political discussion about something as volatile as gun control. But I suppose the analogy you are making would be closer if, for example, a gun DEALER (not just a manufacturer) knowingly sold a gun (with bullets) to someone who was clearly stating he was going to take the gun, go outside, and start shooting people. Regardless of whether the suits you reference against gun manufacturers are a good idea or not, I do not think they make a perfect analogy to the dramshop cases. In any event, the dramshop cases have been around a long, long time, and they are available in roughly 40 out of 50 states.
We've now gone pretty far afield from strip clubs. Although I probably would not give a stripper or a patron a loaded gun -- and certainly not if they were drunk.
discussion comment
16 years ago
There is nothing unusual about this lawsuit. These kinds of actions have existed in the legal system for years. They are called dramshop cases. It really is irrelevant that she is a dancer. At most, that's icing on the cake. The theory of the dramshop case is that a tavern owner is legally responsible for insuring that he does not get someone so drunk that the drinker is a danger to himself or others. So if I walk into a bar and start drinking, the bar is legally obligated to stop serving me drinks if I appear to be getting drunk. If they fail in that obligation, and let me get hammered, and I go out and get in a car accident, they can be held liable for the accident. I assure you this is nothing new. Cases like this happen all the time. There was a case in NJ recently where a family sued a sports arena, because they got a football fan so trashed that he went out and caused a major accident, severely injuring a child. Like the stripper above, the family showed evidence that the sport arena's policy was to push drinks as hard and as fast as possible, regardless of whether the patrons were getting trashed.
As for whether Alabama is or is not a good jurisdiction, the dancer did not have any choice about that, given that everything took place in Alabama. However, Alabama juries are notoriously pro-plaintiff. In one rather famous case, a person was awarded millions of dollars in punitive damages against a BMW dealership, because the paint job on his car was defective.
As for what courts are like, with all due respect to shadowcat, "my cousin vinny" is a funny movie but it does not have anything to do with real life. Does anyone think the B movie "Zombia Strippers" reveals an accurate picture of strip clubs? Hmmm, on second thought, maybe it does . .. .
discussion comment
16 years ago
FYI, notwithstanding Dudester's comments, I never intended the post to be an attack on California or the California government. The fact that one legislator is proposing this does not mean it is going to pass. I do not think it has any chance of passing. And I think California actually has a much more sex-friendly environment than many other states.
I posted this because I thought the debate was interesting, particularly the comments of some of the sex workers. I was totally blown away, for example, by the stripper who claimed to have spent years engaged in prostitution in the clubs, and who claimed to have never -- not once -- used a condom. I thought it was too bad she was not questioned about that, because in 25 years of seeing sex workers of various types, I have never once had one who did NOT use a condom. I think it would have been pretty fair game to ask her why she never bothered using a condom -- and why she blamed her behavior on the clubs she wants to run out of business.
discussion comment
16 years ago
I am sure I will be chastised again by the defenders of misogyny, but doesn't anyone think this is getting ridiculous? What would a new person to this board see in the discussion threads -- strippers are smelly, stripper are drunk, strippers are stupid. This crap is flaring up on the board constantly, on an almost weekly basis (and the stone throwers are usually not without sin).
Think about it: would you spend your time on a stripper dominated board if the threads were: "How grossed are you when you give a dance to an old fart?" "Why are these guys so fucking fat?" and "Is every man a moron?" Shadowcat (of all people!) observes that for some inexplicable reason the few women who visit this site don't stay long. Gee, I wonder why. Personally, I like having women around, and value their contributions, even if I don't agree with them all the time. Hearing the same old locker room trash talk over and over does not add much to my understanding of the world.
A stereotype about men who go to strip clubs, use escorts, and watch porn is that they are really a bunch of women haters deep down inside. I've always wanted to believe we're just extra, extra horny, but the constant threads looking for some excuse to complain about women make me wonder. Let's see a show of hands among the top stripper trashers -- how many of you have managed to maintain normal long term relationships with women you actually live with on a daily basis? Thought so.
Do you think everyone could go for a month without bashing women in general, and strippers in particular? No? How about a week? Are you seething with that much rage?
And abortion? Jesus, let's turn this into a board where we fight about politics, religion, etc., etc. -- sounds great. That happened on TER and got to be so obnoxious that they had to start a separate discussion board for it. Aren't you guys interested in sex? Can't we stick to that?
discussion comment
16 years ago
In response to David: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, of course, but I consider her very attractive. She's very petite, a real spinner. Her breasts are not large (B cup) and her ass is not big, but I'm not particularly into huge tits or huge booty. She looks her age, even a little younger perhaps (which is why I insisted on seeing her government ID early on in the relationship). She's African-American, and has beautiful clear skin, medium complexion. Her teeth are in great shape, and she has no weird body markings. No hideous body art except one small tatoo on her stomach. Her eyes are her best feature, in my view, these real cat eyes if you know what I mean. Her hair varies depending on her mood, but currently she's keeping it straight, shoulder length (she's the kind of woman who gets her hair done every week). I guess overall I'd say an 8 or 9.
With regard to casualguy: we are not going to a place where gambling is legal, so I am not worried about that. She doesn't have a credit card. Except for running up the room bill, I don't think she can get into too much trouble. I'm giving her spending money for every day, and the hotel itself is very nice with a lot of amenities (spa, pool, restaurants, bars) so she should be able to keep herself busy. We have been very upfront about the expectations for the trip, and very clear that we are having sex and sleeping together every night. I'm not a big fan of surprises.
discussion comment
16 years ago
It's so funny to me that some people think I'm being cheap and some people think I'm overpaying her.
I do not agree that it would be more economical to hire an escort. At least in a major city (which is where we will be) you cannot hire a decent escort for less than $300 per session (usually an hour or so). So if I went on the trip without her, for the same price I could get an escort. But because it's a city where I do not live and have no connections, I would be taking my chances on the quality of the escort, and she would be gone after an hour or so (I realize that's a plus for some of you guys, but I like actually going to bed with women). This way I know exactly what I am getting, and I am getting her for the full night. You could not get an escort for an overnight for that price, ever. (And, I might add, most 20 year old escorts are not very good at sex. In this case, the sex is pretty excellent because we've been at it for a while and gotten used to each other. But I would have to be unusually lucky to find another 20 year old on the spot who could be as relaxed with me and this good in bed.)
It is conceivable she could have just agreed to go on the trip for no payment. We'll never know, I guess, because I didn't ask. But I would not have felt comfortable with that on a couple of different levels. First, if I am taking a girl (i.e., just a regular non-escort girlfriend) on a trip, I would pay for everything anyway. So asking her to do that with me would feel very uncomfortably similar to having her as my "girlfriend." I really, really do not want that. I want to keep this like a business transaction, to the extent possible. I am fine with being "friends" but I don't want it to cross over into something else.
Second, she is missing work (even if for only one night) and she is traveling away from her friends and family at my behest. I would really feel like I was taking advantage of her if I did not pay her something, and it would just make me feel awkward the whole time. This would be especially true because the cost of the trip itself is almost nothing to me. Except for her plane ticket, everything else is being paid for by someone else.
The big risk is whether we will be able to stand each other's company for the entire trip, but we are both pretty laid back, and our time together will be broken up repeatedly by my work obligations, so I think it will be ok. We'll see.
discussion comment
16 years ago
A lot of the clubs in my area do have websites, and unfortunately, they do not really help in figuring out whether the place is any good or not. A place can have a slick site and still be a crummy club. However, they are still useful in this regard, namely, that some of them will list the dancers' schedules, so by a click you can find out if someone you like is dancing on a particular evening or not. But you can also just call and achieve the same result.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Yoda: By the time you posted on 5/22, I had already said on 5/21: "thank you to everyone for your input . . . . My dancer and I settled today on $300 per day plus expenses, which I continue to think is very fair under the circumstances. There was no haggling -- I made the proposal and she accepted." You obviously overlooked this post; it's not a criticism, just a fact.
Of course you're entitled to your opinion. I hope you don't think it's disrepectful if I point out why that opinion might not be applicable in this case.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Yoda: It seems like you are not reading my posts. I said she agreed to the trip, and you say "she may go for it." No, she has gone for it. I already say that I have worked out the financial terms of the trip with her in advance, and yet you tell me that I should have worked out the terms in advance. I appreciate the advice, but it seems like you are rendering it without reading the posts, which is not helpful. Telling me to do something I've expressly said is already done is just weird.
I sought input on the price issue before I talked about it with her because I was curious about other folks' opinions and/experiences. I got a diversity of views, expressed my appreciation, and then closed the deal. After the fact, you expressed your view that it wasn't fair because she's missing work, and I simply pointed out why -- in this particular case -- that is not correct. I fail to understand your problem.
discussion comment
16 years ago
She's missing one day in her club, so she is making a lot more money this way. I don't know what you mean by saying "she may go for it." She's already agreed to go on the trip and the terms I've proposed; I bought the plane tickets, booked the hotel etc. It's a done deal. She could back out but I doubt it; there's no reason to do so, and if she did so, she knows she'd piss off a good customer (given that I've already bought her plane ticket).
It's funny how the opinions on this diverge, and how they are all so strongly held. Some of you think I'm being cheap; some think I'm being overly generous. This suggests to me I am coming close to a fair price. Certainly she thinks so.
The naysayers on this seem peculiar to me; almost like you're wishing for failure.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Robofan: I am sure your comments are made with the best intentions, but it does seem like you think I'm a moron.
I have my own business so I don't have a boss. No employees or clients are on the trip. The people I am working with will only see me during the day and then we will part ways for the evening.
My companion and I have gone drinking several times and it has never been an issue. The comment about contributing to the delinquency of a minor must have been intended as a joke.
I already looked at her drivers license so that her name on the ticket matches her ID. Her name matched exactly what she said her name was when we first met.
I ran a complete background check on her (before I proposed the trip) and everything about her checked out exactly as she told me -- correct name, birthdate, relatives, former addresses, etc. She has no criminal record.
On the many occasions I have been with she has always exhibited caution and good sense. She does not want to be "caught" either, because she does not want to be in trouble with her family and she does want to ruin a good gig. She and I both have cells so she is not going to answer the hotel room phone, and my wife would only call my cell anyway.
Obviously this kind if trip requires a certain level of mutual trust, but no more so than the several vacations you say you have done. Personally I prefer this as a work trip. I could never explain to my wife why I am going on a vacation without her. And I am not sure I am up for spending 24/7 with someone until I know them a lot better. But having a little hottie to come "home" to at the end of a hard day seems just right to me.
I like Bobby's advice much better. Much more in the spirit of things.
discussion comment
16 years ago
It is difficult for me to catalog all the problems I have with this post.
First, it strikes me as typical double-standard stripper bashing. Having seen a number of guys in clubs who look so gross I wouldn't even shake hands with them, and having spent a lot of time with strippers and other sex workers, I think it is obviously the guys who more commonly have a hygiene problem. I don't see why a customer should not be expected to be clean. I don't go to the dentist with a lot of gross food particles in my mouth -- do you? If you talk to sex workers about their issues, apart from safety and being ripped off, their biggest issue is with guys that show up unwashed. I think strippers are a pretty tolerant lot when it comes to the appearance of their male customers -- after all, look at how many fat, ugly, old men hang out in strip clubs. But they're not thrilled when they take some smelly old guy back in the LD room with them. I think the guys have the smell problem, on the whole, not the girls.
It also makes no sense to think a girl would deliberately smell bad -- that's going to hurt her business. The strippers -- or at least the successful ones -- are all about appearance. The customers, on the other hand, frequently don't give a shit about their appearance. Just look at the OP, who doesn't care how he smells to his coworkers. Jesus how disgusting. But customers think they get a pass because they're paying.
I've never encountered a woman whose pussy smelled bad -- but that's probably because I very much like the smell of pussy. Note the thread below where guys complain about how they just don't like pussies, and don't like eating them. That's the real story here -- there are just a lot of allegedly heterosexual guys who are turned off by pussies, and by the way pussies naturally smell.
You know, a pyschologist might advance the theory that men who go to strip clubs but constantly bash women are actually gay but in denial -- angry at women for their own sexuality, and overcompensating by trying to be super macho. Is that the problem?
discussion comment
16 years ago
Well, thank you to everyone for your input, even if it sometimes pointed in different directions. I guess it shows everyone has an opinion.
My dancer and I settled today on $300 per day plus expenses, which I continue to think is very fair under the circumstances. There was no haggling -- I made the proposal and she accepted. I guess I could have tried to low ball her, but it is not my nature.
We will see how it goes. I've made the reservations, but the trip is not for a couple some weeks. This is the first time I've taken a paid companion on a trip, so I hope we have fun. I think we're both approaching it with the right attitude.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Emmy7: Thanks for your input. I especially appreciate it coming from a dancer. I think I understand your position. A few reactions.
$300 for a session with an escort is not unusual at all in my geographic area, so I think I am not cheating her on the session. Yes there are escorts that charge more, however, it is usually because they pay for the hotel room and run other expenses (e.g., a booking assistant, web site, etc.). In this case, she is not paying for anything, I pick her up and bring her back, so the $300 is free and clear without any expenses to her.
As for STDs, we use protection. I suspect I've used escorts a few more times than you have, because your belief that escorts are invariably safer is not always correct. Some escorts are religious about using protection, but some (including some pretty well known ones) are not. As for being "required" to get tested, that's not true for independent escorts, and is frequently not true for agency girls. And for a long, long, long list of reasons I stay away from agencies (among other things, half your fee is going to the agency, not the girl).
In short, I am not sure she could charge more money, unless she actually did go into business as an escort -- and that has a lot of costs associated with it. This is a dancer making some additional money on the side, not someone working as an escort.
Yes, I know there are escorts who charge thousands of dollars per day for travel, and there are guys willing to pay it. But just because there are some men who are willing to pay a lot of money for something does not, in my view, mean that it is sensible to do so. There are guys, after all, who will pay thousands of dollars for "sugarbabies" they aren't even allowed to kiss, and in my personal opinion, that is crazy. I certainly agree a higher daily rate would make sense if I was taking her on a vacation and spending all day every day with her -- but I'm only going to see her at night.
Last but not least, as far as it being unfair to other girls to escort from the club, I really think that depends on the club. Some clubs are very strict, but many are not, and a lot of girls go into the club with the idea of making extra money, either inside or outside the club. I think a girl working at a no-extras club who breaks the rules should understand she'll lose her job. But I think a girl working at a club where extras are rampant cannot get too technical about where people draw the line. Does it really make sense to say you can charge $100 for a handjob in the VIP, but you can't charge $300 for full service outside the club? If someone knowingly decides to continue working at such a club, I don't know how she can complain -- it is just the forces of the market at work.
Of course, if the strippers and the escorts all joined a union . . . .
discussion comment
16 years ago
Bookguy: C'mon, relationships are not THAT bad! Lol. My wife does not act weird during her period; does not take me shopping at the decorators; and does not try to change my clothes, car or career. And I rather like my in-laws. True married couples even in the best of circumstances can get on each other's nerves at times, but there are happy marriages. I get along better with my wife probably than anyone else in the world. Most guys will take commitment free sex when they can get it, to be sure, but most guys will also be happier overall if they have a home. Now somehow swinging both of those things at once, that's the trick.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Well, first, I think it was pretty courageous to share your story. Most people on this site either say nothing about what is really going on in their lives, or just dump a lot of bragging BS. Your situation sounds real to me.
I also think Dudester's comparison to a incestuous relationship is unfair and off the mark (a little weird honestly). You are having a pretty typical heterosexual relationship with a guy. I don't think that has much to do with a girl who is sleeping with her Dad. You do not sound "screwed up" to me at all. You sound like a normal person trying to find you path in the world.
I am probably overly cynical about guys (being one myself), but given you have been seeing this guy for 4 years; you met in a club; you have sex every 2 weeks but don't live together; and he still goes to clubs -- it is likely he does not see this as a monogamous relationship. That does not mean he does not love you. It is a fact that a guy can genuinely love a woman and yet still sleep around. It is just the way many of us are built. But I personally doubt that he has never slept with another girl in the last 4 years.
As for not telling him your feelings and keeping him distant, I do not see the reason for that. You've been seeing him for a while. He's already expressed his feelings to you. So the likelihood that you will scare him off seems slim to me. It's not like you would immediately try to move in with him. I think after 4 years it's reasonable to find out if his feelings are genuine, or if he sees you as just a fuck buddy. Either way, it's appropriate to know where you stand.
As for charging him, obviously that kind of depends on what the relationship really is. If he is just a fuck buddy, then I do not see the problem in having a mutually advantageous relationship, however you both define it. If there is something more there -- real love -- then obviously money is not part of the equation.
Again, 4 years is a long time to be unsure about the status of a relationship. If you really would lose the relationship just by being honest with him, then the only thing you are actually losing is the sex. In that case, I suspect you can still find good sex elsewhere.
discussion comment
16 years ago
If you really think like that then you have issues to work out. On the one hand, you like looking at the naked ladies. They presumably sexually arouse you (assuming you're not gay). On the other hand, you also think they're disgusting. That must produce a little cognitive dissonance for you. Even if you don't do anything to address your issues, I suggest you at least recognize they are your issues, and not take it out in hostility directed toward the women you apparently lust for and despise at the same time.
discussion comment
16 years ago
DickJohnson: I agree there are sex workers who are rip off artists. I do not know that this is really due to their being sex workers per se. I think it is due to the fact that this is a completely unregulated industry, taking place outside the law. Your dentist is supposed to be licensed, and if he screws up, you can sue him, etc. None of this applies to sex workers, which opens the door to unscrupulous practices.
There have been some attempts to provide a "consumers guide" check on the industry (TER being the best example), and I think they do work to some degree (given that the context is still a business that operates outside the law). A well reviewed TER escort is much more certain to be an excellent provider than someone you randomly find at a strip club (she is also likely to cost more). But you can find good, honest providers in the clubs.
I certainly agree that if you are going to be a consumer you have to be careful.
However, on the flip side, the girls have to be careful too. They are also facing the same problem -- because the industry is unregulated, they have no recourse against rip off customers. And there are men who pose serious problems. A lot of the girls face the risks of robbery, assault, rape, even murder, and they usually have no recourse. Even getting paid can be a problem. A lot of them run into situations where the guy says he'll pay them afterward, and then he just refuses to pay. If that happens, what are they going to do? Go to the cops and say, "hey, I fucked that guy but he wouldn't pay me"?
I have no problem calling out a particular provider who is ripping people off. My concern is that a lot of guys express a more general sentiment, which is hostility to sex workers -- we like them because we want them to suck us off, but we hate them when they do so, because that makes them dirty sluts. I think that is screwed up.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Misterguy: It may be an age difference (I think I am older than you) but when I was in middle school none of the kids went away on group trips for spring break. That was a strictly college age event. But today middle school girls are sending shots of their pussies to the boys. That is new.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Well these were some interesting comments.
With regard to the comments about GFE: My experience is that is rare in the clubs and with strippers per se. To get a really good GFE, you have to go the escort route. Some of the escorts have really, really worked on their skills in that area and it shows. When you find a good one, it is fantastic. Most of the dancers, in my experience, are much more basic sex for cash, and less GFE. The girl I see regularly now will do anything (including anal) but doesn't like to DFK. Go figure. On the other hand, we do have fun hanging out together and the sessions are always very unhurried.
With regard to the age-old question of would I want my daughter to be a hooker: I think an honest answer requires admitting there are a couple of things going on here. Most guys get a little queasy thinking about their daughters having sex under any circumstances. Although your daughter (unless she's taken a vow of chastity) will almost certainly have sex, most dads don't want to think about it. Likewise, even if no money is exchanged, I think most guys would not be thrilled to walk in on their "little girl" giving someone a blowjob. So the fact that most guys are going to be uncomfortable with their daughters being hookers has less to do with prostitution, and more to do with the fact that we don't like thinking about our daughters having sex. (For what's it's worth, they don't want to think about us having sex either.) And yet, while I don't want to walk in on my daughter having sex (whether it's in a traditional marriage, or as part of a gang bang), I do sincerely hope that she has a very rich and full sex life, and that she derives pleasure from it. Frankly, I'd rather my daughter sleep around than be a nun. I just don't want to be in the room while it's taking place.
So I think the daughter argument is a tad unfair.
Having said that, I really do not see sex work as inherently more degrading than a lot of other occupations. I think my daughter has been given the opportunities in life to live a nice middle class existence, so it would be disappointing if she wound up living in poverty and doing some shit job. But it wouldn't make much difference to me if the shit job was cleaning toilets or stripping. Indeed, assuming the working conditions are better, etc., I would probably prefer the latter.
And I will even take it a step further -- I'd rather she work as a stripper than work as a goon in some office who tosses families out onto the street because they couldn't make their mortgage. If my daughter worked as some vicious person who ruined other people's lives, that would upset me. (I'm not trying to start a big argument about the mortgage crisis by the way. It's just an example.)
So while I appreciate the "class" argument, I still think there is nothing "bad" about being a sex worker.
By the way, the reason why many of us would not introduce our hooker friends to our neighbors is because we are living a lie, and because we are caving to societal pressure. That's understandable, but that doesn't make us people of high moral character. There's a differnce between being "respectable" and being worthy of respect.
discussion comment
16 years ago
I appreciate the comments that were actually responsive to my post. Thanks.
As for the others, I have never encountered another guy's spunk in dozens of pussies, including eating out countless sex workers. If I ever encounter a woman that gross I avoid her entirely, not just for daty.
As for the comments about avoiding daty in the SC, again, I see no difference between that and other sexual activity.
As for the comments about guys who are grossed out by pussies and/or daty (and I think THAT is the real underlying issue), hoestly I think men who do not like pussy are either gay, stuck in a period of infantile arrested sexual development (they want their mommies' breasts), or don't know what they're missing or just are selfish/lousy lovers. And that's fine with me -- nothing I like better than bedding a woman who tells me afterward how most other men do not know how to make love to a woman. If you guys think a woman has most of her nerve endings inside her vagina then you should take a course in female anatomy.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Apart from the very assertive dancers you reference, my view is that well before anything gets pulled out, you will have explored the scope of the girl's willingness to do things. In the civilian world it's called foreplay. If she stops you somewhere along the line -- don't kiss, don't touch my tits, don't touch my ass, don't touch my pussy, etc., etc. -- then you know you can't go further. If she keeps going, then you can keep going. But I would not begin a session in the VIP room by pulling out my dick, unless we had fucked before, or we had clearly discussed in advance that that is what we were going to do. And even then, I prefer the build up -- it's more fun that way. I like foreplay.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Well, on that topic, since we are quoting great quotes from history, I always remember what Will Rogers said: "I never met a pussy I didn't lick." At least I think he said that. Maybe it was Ben Franklin.
discussion comment
16 years ago
This girl is so cute -- how could we all not behave around her?