Why so down on the dancers?
There have been a couple of threads recently on dancers who fuck around in or outside the clubs. Not just with regard to the original posts, but also with several responses, the theme expressed was that dancers are a bunch of fucked up sluts, and how awful that they are so cynical and sleep around for $$$, etc., etc.
I don't understand that attitude, especially on a website like this. Yes, some of the dancers are pretty cynical, but so what? As long as they are providing good service for a fair price (and only the customer can decide how he feels about that), what's the problem? Surely this is not the place where we are going to find a bunch of prudes. Can't we de-stigmatize the sex industry, and just agree they are providing a service like anything else? The fact that most of us (presumably) would not want to sell sex for money doesn't mean we have to look down on people who do. I probably would not want to be a proctologist or a garbage collector, but I sure am glad there are people who provide those services, and I don't look down on them one bit. Why should this be any different?
Are there some girls who are doing this because of a drug addiction? Unfortunately, yes. But I have never seen reliable data indicating what percentage of sex workers are drug addicts compelled by their addiction. (This is a favorite argument of people who still believe sex work should be outlawed, but they never come up with the goods to support their claim that all sex workers are drug addicts.)
I suspect most sex workers choose their work for a variety of reasons, probably largely relating to economic need and the range of skills they have. If the only job you can get is minimum wage, it's not a sign of mental illness to think that selling sex might be a better way to earn a living.
I also believe some of the reasons girls become sex workers are more complicated than some of us imagine. Sometimes a completely "normal" middle class person finds herself in immediate need of cash, and this is an easy way to get it. I knew a woman (in her late 30s) who was a dancer (the non-erotic type), and this was an easy way to make $$$ while pursuing her art. I've met girls who are in school, and this was how they put themselves through. And, yes, I've met girls who were just young and kind of aimless and this was an easy way to pay the rent.
I don't think we have to look down on these girls as desparate or fucked up, or cluck our tongues at them like we're a bunch of old ladies at church. They are getting by as best they can, no different than someone who finds himself working at McDonalds. Why be so judgmental?
The balance of the posts, it seems to me, are from guys who --- deep in their subconscious --- think they are going to fall in love with the hooker with a heart of gold. And if that's your attitude, then it's really your problem, not their problem. If you have sex with a girl in the sex industry, you would have to be a fool to be surprised to find out she's sleeping around. Dude! That's how she makes a living! Shit, I encourage my ATF to get other clients, I don't want to be her only source of support, and I sure don't want to be her boyfriend.
Sadly, when I see these self-righteous posts, for me it confirms a common stereotype about the sex industry patron, which is that he harbors the good old fashioned madonna/whore double standard, and looks down his nose at his provider, even as he's getting his dick sucked. Maybe some of us have to pretend in our civilian lives, but here let's dump that shit and sing praises to the providers who sell us the services we very much desire.
I don't understand that attitude, especially on a website like this. Yes, some of the dancers are pretty cynical, but so what? As long as they are providing good service for a fair price (and only the customer can decide how he feels about that), what's the problem? Surely this is not the place where we are going to find a bunch of prudes. Can't we de-stigmatize the sex industry, and just agree they are providing a service like anything else? The fact that most of us (presumably) would not want to sell sex for money doesn't mean we have to look down on people who do. I probably would not want to be a proctologist or a garbage collector, but I sure am glad there are people who provide those services, and I don't look down on them one bit. Why should this be any different?
Are there some girls who are doing this because of a drug addiction? Unfortunately, yes. But I have never seen reliable data indicating what percentage of sex workers are drug addicts compelled by their addiction. (This is a favorite argument of people who still believe sex work should be outlawed, but they never come up with the goods to support their claim that all sex workers are drug addicts.)
I suspect most sex workers choose their work for a variety of reasons, probably largely relating to economic need and the range of skills they have. If the only job you can get is minimum wage, it's not a sign of mental illness to think that selling sex might be a better way to earn a living.
I also believe some of the reasons girls become sex workers are more complicated than some of us imagine. Sometimes a completely "normal" middle class person finds herself in immediate need of cash, and this is an easy way to get it. I knew a woman (in her late 30s) who was a dancer (the non-erotic type), and this was an easy way to make $$$ while pursuing her art. I've met girls who are in school, and this was how they put themselves through. And, yes, I've met girls who were just young and kind of aimless and this was an easy way to pay the rent.
I don't think we have to look down on these girls as desparate or fucked up, or cluck our tongues at them like we're a bunch of old ladies at church. They are getting by as best they can, no different than someone who finds himself working at McDonalds. Why be so judgmental?
The balance of the posts, it seems to me, are from guys who --- deep in their subconscious --- think they are going to fall in love with the hooker with a heart of gold. And if that's your attitude, then it's really your problem, not their problem. If you have sex with a girl in the sex industry, you would have to be a fool to be surprised to find out she's sleeping around. Dude! That's how she makes a living! Shit, I encourage my ATF to get other clients, I don't want to be her only source of support, and I sure don't want to be her boyfriend.
Sadly, when I see these self-righteous posts, for me it confirms a common stereotype about the sex industry patron, which is that he harbors the good old fashioned madonna/whore double standard, and looks down his nose at his provider, even as he's getting his dick sucked. Maybe some of us have to pretend in our civilian lives, but here let's dump that shit and sing praises to the providers who sell us the services we very much desire.
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28 comments
I enjoy dancers and realise that I am very fortunate to live in a time and place where clubs like this exist. (Look at the NY newspaper this week for a 5 part series of what social life is like in Saudi Arabia for a comparison... YIKES...)
Likewise I do not understand the stigma against sex and sex workers; would you rather be a bachelor farmer in 1800's Minnesota and never see a woman? Or would you like to marry the 1st woman that you could, and go through life too shy and embarassed to ever become a good lover ?
As to the mercenary part..... Well, I have gone to the same barber for many years, and consider him one of my friends, but I am sure that our relationship would change if I showed up one day and said that he should cut my hair for nothing. The money is not the important part of the equation (and I enjoy being the recipient of a good, well executed hustle).
I don't find too many women willing to sell what I consider to be GFEs. A large part of the problem, imo, is that too many customers get "fooled" and then blame the dancer. In this business I would hope the "fooled" customer would stop and think that other customers want this extreme fantasy. I don't need a suck and fuck by a highly skilled sex worker who is just going through the motions: some guys may want that, but I find it boring. I go looking for magic and if the woman is skilled enough to convince me that she is in love or some other fun fantasy then EXCELLENT!!! She is a champion in my book. :)
As far as prices: Really it should generally be whatever the market will bear, imo. A man wants to pay $1,000 per hour for conversation where some young hottie or old ugly is telling him, she loves him that doesn't, imo, seem like a bad deal for either of them assuming he isn't of diminished mental capacity.
Hi quimby,
I couldn't have said it better! :) It is a real treat to meet a super pro and she doesn't have to even like me to do a wonderful job. The fact she wants $$$ isn't a problem because well I went shopping for a service and don't want or expect it for free. With a good provider I want to pay more than my budget will allow. I don't find being cheap to be fun, but my budget is relatively small so often a dancer isn't paid nearly enough, imo.
When I do get some extra money in, I do try and spread what little good fortune there is. I didn't appreciate people low balling me if it just because they're cheap, but if they have a tight budget that is a different story. One customer might need help at starvation wages that don't even cover costs, but another customer might say here is an extra $$$ for a job well done. Hopefully, those that don't mind and can afford spending a little more will do so---I definitely appreciated it even to this day! And, I liked helping those who couldn't pay too much. I've done work gratis and felt positive about it and I've done work dirt cheap and felt good about it. The best feeling, however, is when someone who can afford to pay recognizes your good work and helps you with bonus cash. That is very considerate. :)
I think there are strippers who feel the same way about charging less to some customers who are lower income, but who appreciate the dancer's work. It isn't all about the money, imo.
Now, when I hear people saying "we need to de-stigmatize the sex industry" I HAVE to ask "okay, fine... now, be honest, would you mind it, just a little, if your daughter were a stripper or escort?" Now, there probably ARE some people who can honestly say "you know what, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest. As long as she's happy." And to those people I say, wow, okay, that's cool.
I strongly suspect, however, that 99% of people who unthinkingly call for de-stigmatization or the like would be PLENTY bothered if it were their little girl grinding on some 50 year old guy's lap, or sucking his dick in VIP. Fact it, almost all of us regard "adult" work as very low-status, or even bottom-rung.
Which doesn't mean we can't *genuinely* enjoy their company. I have a friend I'm hanging out with now who's a prostitute (oops, I mean "provider") - first time I saw her was as a customer, but we hit it off and have become fuck buddies. She's a blazingly hot young Brazilian chick, kinda smart, very cool, a great spinner fuck. I've advised her on how to market herself, and I see her 2-3 times a week for 2-3 hours, a mix of going out for coffee or lunch, chatting, and fucking. I love spending time with her... on the other hand, if an art director friend of mine is visiting from NY and wants to meet for drinks at Krog wine bar, I am NOT taking this chick along to meet the friends. Totally different world which she is, frankly, beneath. Then again, I wouldn't take my lawn guys along either.
You can hang out with and even respect low-status people who provide services for you - even become their friend. But at the end of the day those class realities come into play. That's America, at least.
That said, I DO think there are guys here who have a kind of love-hate relationship with dancers, but I think it's the minority. Paring it down to basics: guys with money to spend have been fucking pretty young ladies of negotiable virtue since the dawn of time, and those ladies have always been looked down on by society. And it's never going to change.
O.
Well in some circles the dancers haven't been good, if the dancer raised false hopes. And, yes it can be a pain if the dancer says she will do the out of the ordinary X, Y, and Z, but doesn't . . . I'm usually surprised when they deliver. :)
Dancer says she is going to be over in 5 minutes and ends up at my home 5 hours or more later. Was I upset? No, because I wasn't expecting much from her. She didn't seem responsible and that, to me, was part of her charm. Dancer says she wants to treat me to lunch and doesn't deliver. Not a big deal because I thought she was just doing a sales job. OTOH, I've been very pleasantly surprised. Dancer does a hell of a lot more than I expected and I just can't properly compensate her financially. Yes, she wasn't demanding $$$ but, still I felt obligated. Someone treats you more than right and you want to show real substantial appreciation, imo.
Gambling dancer wastes time with me and I feel the need to remind her that her time is valuable and my budget is only X. In her opinion, the amount I spent wasn't much more than zero for her needs and it would be better to forget about charging at all. What a mess, imo, it would be to get "free" from her. But, from her point of view I can easily see where it is already gratis in her mind. I can't compete financially with her "real" customers. OTOH, friends and neighbors are certain she is taking advantage of me. She is a pro and they can see that and there is in their opinion no such thing as a good pro. I think she is a very nice pro, in general, and that she hasn't made nearly enough money from me. If I get a sudden windfall, then I would definitely be sharing some wealth with her. :)
I have played variations of this hobby for over 30 years. Over the years there has been one constant, the dancers are all different. I have enjoyed ladies that were almost illiterate and graduate students. I have had fun times with girls who were sober and ones higher than a kite. I have had sex ITC and OTC, but never a long term relationship of any kind.
I play the game to have fun and enjoy the people I meet. Anytime I go into a club I want to push the limits and see how far I can go. Sex is the ultimate goal, but is not always available. Making a short time friend may be all that can be accomplished, and while disappointing, that's still OK.
The social status of the sex worker is immaterial because all I expect out of the arrangement is sex for $$$. Just like any other service provider, if I get what I pay for I am happy.
With regard to the comments about GFE: My experience is that is rare in the clubs and with strippers per se. To get a really good GFE, you have to go the escort route. Some of the escorts have really, really worked on their skills in that area and it shows. When you find a good one, it is fantastic. Most of the dancers, in my experience, are much more basic sex for cash, and less GFE. The girl I see regularly now will do anything (including anal) but doesn't like to DFK. Go figure. On the other hand, we do have fun hanging out together and the sessions are always very unhurried.
With regard to the age-old question of would I want my daughter to be a hooker: I think an honest answer requires admitting there are a couple of things going on here. Most guys get a little queasy thinking about their daughters having sex under any circumstances. Although your daughter (unless she's taken a vow of chastity) will almost certainly have sex, most dads don't want to think about it. Likewise, even if no money is exchanged, I think most guys would not be thrilled to walk in on their "little girl" giving someone a blowjob. So the fact that most guys are going to be uncomfortable with their daughters being hookers has less to do with prostitution, and more to do with the fact that we don't like thinking about our daughters having sex. (For what's it's worth, they don't want to think about us having sex either.) And yet, while I don't want to walk in on my daughter having sex (whether it's in a traditional marriage, or as part of a gang bang), I do sincerely hope that she has a very rich and full sex life, and that she derives pleasure from it. Frankly, I'd rather my daughter sleep around than be a nun. I just don't want to be in the room while it's taking place.
So I think the daughter argument is a tad unfair.
Having said that, I really do not see sex work as inherently more degrading than a lot of other occupations. I think my daughter has been given the opportunities in life to live a nice middle class existence, so it would be disappointing if she wound up living in poverty and doing some shit job. But it wouldn't make much difference to me if the shit job was cleaning toilets or stripping. Indeed, assuming the working conditions are better, etc., I would probably prefer the latter.
And I will even take it a step further -- I'd rather she work as a stripper than work as a goon in some office who tosses families out onto the street because they couldn't make their mortgage. If my daughter worked as some vicious person who ruined other people's lives, that would upset me. (I'm not trying to start a big argument about the mortgage crisis by the way. It's just an example.)
So while I appreciate the "class" argument, I still think there is nothing "bad" about being a sex worker.
By the way, the reason why many of us would not introduce our hooker friends to our neighbors is because we are living a lie, and because we are caving to societal pressure. That's understandable, but that doesn't make us people of high moral character. There's a differnce between being "respectable" and being worthy of respect.
Dude, why is this a mystery at all?? This ties right in with members of this board and their friends forcing dancers off this website. I just *love* how we went from 04/15/08 when old scat said he was going to back off from posting topics on this board (http://www.tuscl.com/discussion/58733) to *three whole days later* when he started posting topics again basically like nothing had ever happened. That must have been one hell of a three days of soul searching going on there...not... I for one will not be posting in any of scat's topics ever again. The kind of pussy bullying behavior that him and his kind have perpetuated on this board does NOT need to be rewarded by me.
You're thinking waaaaay too logically for this board njscfan...unfortunately a good chunk of the people here are just not capable of that kind of thought...wake up...
"But at the end of the day those class realities come into play. That's America, at least."
This both true and very sad at the same time IMO. It doesn't have to be that way at all.
I'm curious to hear your thoughts.
No, I am programmed to like women's bodies - probably in much the same way that I do NOT like baseball...
There are also addiction, costs, and shame angles.
Some guys have fallen in love/addiction with a dancer who doesn't feel anything remotely reciprocal. Or, they've seen sweet guys get sucked dry by a cold ruthless blood sucking dancer. The sweet guy may be addicted almost as if he was hooked on drugs. The dancer is the "dealer" responsible for his suffering. So, hey for those who believe in the governments' drug wars it is a natural extension. If a dealer is the scum of the earth, then surely the same hatred can be projected against a dancer who uses the drug of love to injure and pillage.
Some guys maybe upset when they think about how much money they've spent. I've heard over and over that I could have done this or that or whatever with $$$ "wasted" on dancers. Well, the dancers pretty much win out easily over any other form of fun. Gambling? Not too interested. Drugs? Not too interested. Fancy car? Not too interested. Stocks and bonds (yes, that is a form of fun)? If I any rights (I don't), then yes investments would be nice. Fancy clothes or art? Not too interested. Education? Yes, I'd like to learn more . . . however, I'm sort of past that stage in life and have difficulty with basic memory. Food? I'm too fat already! Dancers are heaven sent especially in a quiet club where you can work at getting GFEs from a beautiful young woman. (No real interest in escorts because they're much more expensive and looks are all important to me. Pictures can be extremely deceptive both increasing or decreasing a person's attractiveness.)
A lot of guys that I've spoken with are totally shamed that they have to pay for it. It should be free goes their chant. They don't seem to understand when I say if you want free, then find some woman around your own age who may be not so attractive. Of course, the response is that they want young and attractive. Well, that can be free, but it does take more work generally and especially a more accepting mind. And, I hear the rationale that if the man is having a good time then of course the woman is having a good time so why is she getting paid on top of that??? Just Brilliant! Normally, the young hottie doesn't have as strong a sex drive as the customer and it isn't her priority in the least. Yes, there are exceptions . . .
At least for me the answer is NO. I don't consider stripclubs subversive in the least.
Thinking about the "stigma" of a sex worker, I have 2 main concerns. First, the work may not be a truly voluntary choice. Second, physical harm e.g. disease. Other than that I consider sex work in a very positive light (yes, even for family members). Those somewhat rare, ime, dancers who enjoy giving pleasure to other people is just very uplifting: Especially in a society that seems to thrive on punishments and prisons.
Confelicity is too rare a trait from what I've seen. A sex worker who enjoys giving pleasure or receiving pleasure in his or her work should, imo, be celebrated. Sex can give pleasure. Drugs can give pleasure. Technology (e.g. autos) can give pleasure. Just because these pleasures can also end in death and destruction doesn't they should be devalued or demonized. Roughly 45,000 people are killed annually in automobile accidents in the U.S. Is truly too high a price to pay for this modern pleasure? Alcohol related deaths may be around 100,000 annually in the U.S. Is this also too high a price to pay for this traditional pleasure? Stripclub deaths are around 11 annually (mostly at Angels and Coco's). ;) OK, ban autos and alcohol and keep stripclubs.
i
These "rules of conduct" introduce conformity. That can be a strong positive and is a foundation of culture. The dancers at Angels overwhelmingly wanted a culture where prude type dancers weren't tolerated. The dancers felt that prudes created a hostile environment for those customers looking forward to total slut puppies. That, being around total slut puppies, is what the club is about; currently.
Because of external pressure that distorts and limits the number of nearby small clubs those customers and dancers who prefer a more laid back club where a dancer is free to be a prude are pretty much shit out of luck. The dancers at Angels will point out the society already has too many prudes and the last thing the club needs is prude dancers! They have an excellent point; the problem is the lack of freedom to open nearby competing clubs, which I think could successfully cater to a different customer base. I'm interested in laid back and quiet . . .
Also, I would prefer a lot less conformity typically and more of a wild west atmosphere where dancers generally set their own morals and the infamous buyer beware prevails. NO, I don't like ROBs, however, one customer's ROB is another customer's cherished GFE. For example, many TUSLers thought it was a ROB to charge $500 per hour just for conversation. Well, the customer paying may feel it is the best $500 per hour he has ever spent and book appointment after appointment.
There have been some attempts to provide a "consumers guide" check on the industry (TER being the best example), and I think they do work to some degree (given that the context is still a business that operates outside the law). A well reviewed TER escort is much more certain to be an excellent provider than someone you randomly find at a strip club (she is also likely to cost more). But you can find good, honest providers in the clubs.
I certainly agree that if you are going to be a consumer you have to be careful.
However, on the flip side, the girls have to be careful too. They are also facing the same problem -- because the industry is unregulated, they have no recourse against rip off customers. And there are men who pose serious problems. A lot of the girls face the risks of robbery, assault, rape, even murder, and they usually have no recourse. Even getting paid can be a problem. A lot of them run into situations where the guy says he'll pay them afterward, and then he just refuses to pay. If that happens, what are they going to do? Go to the cops and say, "hey, I fucked that guy but he wouldn't pay me"?
I have no problem calling out a particular provider who is ripping people off. My concern is that a lot of guys express a more general sentiment, which is hostility to sex workers -- we like them because we want them to suck us off, but we hate them when they do so, because that makes them dirty sluts. I think that is screwed up.
On the other hand, I'd still have to say, there are an awful lot of fucked up girls who end up as strippers. Or, maybe, becoming strippers makes them fucked up. Or, maybe, it's a little bit of both. But really, I don't find this noteworthy. You're dealing with a room full of physically attractive young women. The likelihood is, very very highly, that they will exhibit emotionally unrestrained behavior. I bet that photographers who work shoots with a bevy of super-hot fashion models deal with similar problems. The nagging, the cat-fights, the failure to meet deadlines, the obsession with "extreme" lifestyles and the need to push everything to the brink ... is it really stripper-dom, or just girl-dom?
In addition, I'm beginning to think, there's no such thing as a "sex worker" in the traditional sense of, for instance, an office worker or a stable worker. People who "define" themselves as office workers actually go do it every day, in a kind of regularity which no sex worker really has. I mean, I don't want to disparage efforts to give fair representation and recognition to women who perform sexual acts for pay. I patronize them, love them (as long as they're decent, love-worthy folk, of course), and wish them well. They make my life tolerable. But they don't "work" regularly. It's a cash business, it has certain emotional tolls, it comes and goes in a young woman's life.
Maybe it's more like being an actress. People who want to make it big on stage or on the movie screen as actresses go from gig to gig, with odd periods in their lives when things are going well, or poorly, when they have work that they like or dislike. They're not really 'employed regularly.' And they plumb the depths of THEMSELVES to figure out how to be a better service provider, and how to better please those people who might give them a big break. In those senses, acting and sex-service-providing are more similar to one another than to something like working 8 to 5 as a file clerk. So, the term "sex worker" kind of skews it in the wrong direction. Makes 'em seem like standard people with a non-standard profession. But they aren't. They're already non-standard people, and their "job" makes them even more so and, in subtle ways, re-defines them in a manner which office work does not.
About whether or not I'd want my daughter to be a stripper or a prostitute. Well, really, I don't have children, so I don't know. I do kind of think that the guys who might instantly answer "NO WAY!" are probably a bit hypocritical. I can imagine that, as long as I thought of her as mature, able to make her own decisions, and forging ahead independently in her life, I might approve more of a daughter of mine working as a high-class internet call-girl, than working as (for instance) a secretary to certain party members of the persuasion which I am not. Or even, working in a chicken processing plant. They're all "honest work" in some ways, and "selling out" in other ways, and I'd probably want the best trade-off for her.
But I'm a kind of hyper-rational person. This is at the root of my inability to secure a date who is hot enough that I wouldn't want to (or feel I have to) patronize sex workers. And it's at the root of my inability to secure a wife and thereby children. In fact, I bet that we all suffer from a bit of this disconnectedness. Men who patronize strip clubs are "left out" of society in some way or other. Often, that's a good thing -- we think more clearly about certain subjects which are simply sacred cows to other people. But often it's a bad thing -- we don't have the smooth talk (or, simply, the looks and attitude and nice car) which might make us happier about our civilian (non-paid) opportunities. So we resort to sex workers and strippers (the latter is simply a sub-category of the former) to fill a need which we otherwise can't fill.
So, when you ask, whether we'd like our daughters to be doing it: don't be surprised if the non-standard audience answers that question in a rather non-standard manner. For me? I don't think it would necessarily be all that bad at all. All other things being equal, and in the right context, yeah, I could stomach that concept. In bad situations, no. I wouldn't want her to get addicted to drugs, or get pressured and beat up by a pimp or pusher, or somehow be endangered or grossed out by her job. But ya know? I wouldn't want that for her in an office either, and sometimes I think exploitation and self-destruction are a lot more common among office workers than sex workers, at least those sex workers who take themselves seriously and bother to take the right personal and emotional precautions.
Just some thoughts. Now ya know why I'm a "book" guy. :)