discussion comment
16 years ago
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minnowAny place that interests me.
Thanks, MisterGuy. I love you, too. Have a nice weekend.
discussion comment
16 years ago
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minnowAny place that interests me.
parodyman: on point as usual
ShotDisc: Your naivete is almost touching. She "spent time" with you (meaning sat and talked with you) because you were a regular customer, she was still dancing, and she had a reasonable hope that you would continue to come to the club and spend money in the future. Had she refused to talk to you, she would have risked burning that bridge, and losing a customer. It is not any different than when someone gives a free consult. Had you persisted in failing to buy dances, she would have eventually stopped talking to you.
Now I made a specific factual claim, but what's the evidence for what I am saying? Well, for one, you notice she never gave you dances for free when you were broke, she just sat and talked. Why? Because giving you a free dance would have defeated the whole purpose, and "the whole purpose" is to make money, in this case by keeping you interested and getting you to keep visiting the club. Of course, some dancers will give away freebies to attract or keep customers, but only so long as they can continue to reasonably hope that the customer will be a source of business. If she really liked you as more than an acceptable customer, she would not have flinched at giving you free dances all the time. (Which is why I don't see my dental hygenist naked. It's not her job. But it is the stripper's job to get naked. But she's doing it solely as a job, not something else.)
Second, as soon as she "retired" from dancing (or left her club in any event), she had nothing to do with you. If she was really your "friend" in any sense of the word, you would have had some kind of relationship with her that went beyond her job. You didn't. You never saw her outside her job; you probably never even knew her address; I bet you never even knew her real name. Could you call her up on the phone today and expect her to know who you are? I'm betting your odds of doing that are about as good as your odds of calling up your ATF Dr. J.
(BTW, sometimes dancers will see their customers outside the club, meet them for lunch, hang out with them, etc., etc. But again, that's just customer relations, no different than when I take a vendor out to lunch or dinner. Those kind of "grease the wheel" social events are very common in the business world.)
It's no reflection on you, of course, that she just dropped off the radar. It happens to everyone. That's why we've had several posts on this site -- even by the strongest proponents of the concept of the ATF -- by guys who are shocked, just shocked when their so-called ATF just disappeared and left no forwarding address. How could she do that? To me! We had lunch! I took her out for dinner! We even had sex! She was my ATF! Well, maybe, but to her you were just a customer in the club, and as soon as she was done dancing, she never gave another thought to it.
Of course your special ATF Julie (if that was her real name) was and is a person. I'm a person too, and just like Julie did to you, I schmooz my customers, because it's good for business. But they are still customers, not friends, even though I might like them and find them to be tolerable company. Sorry if you have a hard time understanding that.
discussion comment
16 years ago
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Book GuyI write it like I mean it, but mostly they just want my money.
Ok, well as expected, David did not give a straight and simple answer to a straight and simple question. Instead, we were treated to another long seed spreading lecture (complete with allusions to David's exalted status in the world).
David may well have his reasons for not wanting a girlfriend. I understand that and, what's more, agree, probably for some of the same reasons.
But it does not change the bottom line. David has not had sex with even one 20 year old hottie who was not a stripper or a hooker (I mean, of course, at his current age; I hope he had sex with 20 year olds when he was younger). So his experiences do not prove anything, because anyone can have sex with hookers.
And, yes, as anyone who has seen hookers for a while will attest, the hookers and strippers sometimes give away freebies (e.g., calling up and asking you to come over for a free fuck off the clock). I'm afraid that does not prove anything either. It's called customer service. In my business (non-adult, non-sex related) I give away free services to my clients or potential clients all the time -- it's a way to attract and retain business. Everyone does it, and every small business person will understand that (especially anyone in a service field).
I once went to a party for escorts and johns. It was on the whole pretty horrifying, and I wouldn't do it again, but it was eye opening with regard to this conversation. The men were overwhelmingly (not 100%, but a clear majority) losers -- fat, ugly, old, pathetic, awkward, geeky losers. They did not have any game -- none! Yet, these hot sexy women were all over them -- hanging on them like they were George Clooney. Even if you have not attended such a weird event, if you are honest with yourself, you have seen the same thing almost every time you have walked into a strip club -- a young hot sexy stripper draping herself over some disgusting, unshaven, half-drunk, dirty old man wearing a t-shirt with some idiotic logo on the front. And that proves -- what? That he's a gentleman horndog? No, that he has money to spend, silly, that's all. Yes, anyone, ANYONE, can make it with a prostitute.
discussion comment
16 years ago
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minnowAny place that interests me.
MisterGuy: thanks for your calm, deliberate observations. Always helpful to hear from an intelligent, mature individual like you.
ShotDisc: I'll try to ignore your personal insults as well. Even your own post shows ATF is a term of such elasticity as to be meaningless. Which is why, by the way, notwithstanding your post, there are many guys on this site who claim to have had more than one ATF. (Sort of defeats your definition, doesn't it?) I would suggest to you, respectfully, that when a term becomes that meaningless, it should be retired. By the way, with your ATF, when was the last time you saw her? Did you ever see her outside the club at all? If not, could you explain to me why you believe you had a relationship more meaningful with her than I have, say, with my dental hygenist (with whom I always have deep and meaningful conversations every time I get my teeth cleaned). SuperDude's brutally honest assessment seems a lot closer to the truth in my humble opinion. Maybe your ATF was happy to see you because you were a source of cash -- which would explain why she never saw you under any other circumstances. Sorry if that hurts. By the way, you never felt a close personal bond with Dr. J did you?
discussion comment
16 years ago
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Book GuyI write it like I mean it, but mostly they just want my money.
Bobby: I admit I am guessing about his age as well. I think it is an educated guess based on some of his statements about doing things "decades" ago, which would put him at least in his 40s. But he can easily set the record straight.
As for your interpretation of his description of his exploits, it's certainly a plausible interpretation. But that's the problem, of course, we have to read between the lines to figure out what he's saying. I'm just asking for a plain statement. It is great to claim a young girl is throwing herself at you. I only think it counts, however, if it has actually happened, not that it "might" have happened. My bet is all the sex he is talking about is with hookers and strippers. But again, if I'm wrong, he can easily correct me.
discussion comment
16 years ago
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Book GuyI write it like I mean it, but mostly they just want my money.
David:
Please try not to respond to this inquiry with another post about seed spreading. I tried to engage you on that topic before. Your responses, frankly, were exhausting, because it was impossible to nail you down in a logical argument. So I will leave that one aside.
Instead, a very simple question and the premise is this: You appear to be a guy 40 or older, which would put you in the same general category as Book Guy (and me, for that matter). You claim to be having sex with very young and very hot women.
So a very simple question, and I hope you can give a very simple and straight answer: Are you claiming to be having sex with young hot women who are NOT strippers or escorts AND who are NOT being compensated by you in any fashion?
If the answer is "yes" (i.e., you are fucking a total civilian, non-sex worker, college student who for some reason you have convinced to jump on your 40-year-old-plus wanker) then I will concede you have tapped into something, somehow. Whether it's "seed spreading" or whether it's just that you're an incredibly sexy wonderful guy, I guess the rest of us will never know.
But if the answer is "no" and the 20 year olds you are fucking all just happen to be strippers or prostitutes or sugar babies of some sort . . . then, sadly, you have proven absolutely nothing with all your complicated theories. Because the simple fact is that any hooker will sleep with any guy for the right price, and I have known the oldest, fattest, ugliest, most idiotic, most pathetic guys in the world who have nonetheless managed to "score" on a regular basis with stippers and hookers. It's the money, honey, and it has nothing to do with who the customer is, what he is like, or what vibe he gives off.
So what is the answer?
discussion comment
16 years ago
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minnowAny place that interests me.
Sorry, by the "last two posts" I was not referring to Bobby, but to Misterguy and Minnow. Bobby and I were writing at the same time.
discussion comment
16 years ago
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minnowAny place that interests me.
The last two posts were pretty incoherent, aside from being filled with invective, it's hard to see the point of either comment.
You can insult me (or my marriage) all you want. It doesn't phase me, because you've never met me or my wife.
Neither poster deals with the point I made: "ATF" is a meaningless term, which is used on this site to refer to anything from a dancer someone sees in the club, to a fuck buddy, and everything in between. Neither post deals with the further point, that the "ATF" label is used to obfuscate the reality of what is happening (or not happening) in the patron's dealings with the stripper. And, last but not least, neither post deals with the underlying issue, which in my view is that some patrons use stripclubs as substitutes for real relationships with the opposite sex.
The fact that (some) people howl loudly when those points are made tells me a nerve has been struck. You can deny all you want that there are PLs on this site looking for a girlfriend (oh, I mean an "ATF") in the strip club, but your denials won't change reality.
I know the "ATF" concept is a sacred cow on this site. Some sacred cows deserve to be attacked. This is one of them.
discussion comment
16 years ago
A good sign someone is about to say something idiotic is when they begin their post with the word "dude." I barely know who "Dr. Phil" is, so I can assure you I have no desire to be like Dr. Phil. And, yes, MisterGuy, if you are playing internet computer games, then you are playing them with little boys.
discussion comment
16 years ago
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minnowAny place that interests me.
Don't put words in my mouth. I will speak for myself. I never said I was the only one on the board fucking strippers. I said a lot of guys on the board use the term "ATF" to obfuscate what is going on, which is usually nothing more than a handjob in the club. That's painfully evident from the posts about people wearing silk shorts and going "commando" to the club. But if people want to clarify what is really going on, they can stop using BS terms like "ATF" which mean nothing.
As for your comments about my marriage, obviously, you are speaking from ignorance, so your comments cannot be taken seriously. However, I am continually amazed by how judgmental some (not all) of the guys on this site are about sleeping around. Somehow it's ok to go to a tittie bar and pay girls to grind on your lap, but it's immoral to sleep around? Seems pretty hypocritical to me.
discussion comment
16 years ago
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Book GuyI write it like I mean it, but mostly they just want my money.
Book Guy: you are really over-thinking this. It is not that hard to get laid. As for having sex with a prostitute, unless there is something really wrong with you, you can get laid any time you want. They are all over the internet. Just contact them, settup an appointment, and go bust your nut. They don't care if you're fat, ugly, old, awkward, stupid or anything else. All they care about is that you have money, and you are not a cop or an ax murderer.
As for having sex with civilians, their standards are a little higher, but not much. As I've suggested, maybe YOUR standards are a little high. It sounds like you are over 40, not particularly successful, and not drop-dead-gorgeous. Given that, and short of hiring a hooker, you are going to have to lower your expectations a little. That means dating girls who are close to you in age, and merely normal in looks. But the idea that you cannot find a girl to fuck is crazy; you can. You can either go the route I've chosen (long term relationships), or do what my single friends do (which is change fuck partners on a regular, even weekly basis). Either way, the quickest and easiest way to meet someone is via the internet. But they will be regular girls, not 20 year old hotties. Given your age and station in life, to get the 20 year hotties, you have to pay (or be very rich, which amounts to the same thing).
You are trying too hard and thinking yourself into a corner. Guys who have serious and obvious deficiencies get laid on a regular basis. So can you.
discussion comment
16 years ago
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minnowAny place that interests me.
The term ATF as used on this site is meaningless. Guys use it to refer to dancers they see alot in the club, but never outside the club, and whom they never fuck; dancers they (falsely) think they have a "relationship" with (because they have lunch or dinner with them); and dancers they fuck. To use one term to describe several completely different situations is foolish. We would all be better off not using the term ATF at all, and instead just accurately describing what is happening in plain, factual terms.
But a lot of guys here don't want to do that. Why? Because they want to obfuscate the reality of what is happening between them and the dancers -- which is largely "nothing". If they were honest (and especially, if they were honest with themselves), the guys would admit that with a lot of the dancers they never get any sex; they pay for a lot of dances that are "high contact" (which is a eupehmism for getting their cocks rubbed through their pants, or at best, a handjob); and while they would jump at the chance to fuck one of these girls, it often never happens.
I think a lot of guys use this term as a pseudo-expression to refer to some dancer they wish was their "girlfriend," but they know they can't really call her their girlfriend because they are paying her money (and she really thinks of him as her customer). I think the guys do this because they don't have girlfriends or wives in real life, and they use strippers as substitute girlfriends. (How many guys on this site are married and/or have a live in girlfriend? I bet it's a minority. And of the single guys, how many are getting laid even once a week? Again, I bet it's a minority. There's something wrong here.)
Personally, I think it's pathetic. If you cannot get a girlfriend in real life, you should not try to use sex workers as substitutes for girlfriends. And if a sex worker isn't your girlfriend, then you shouldn't fudge the issue by calling her your ATF.
There are stippers I regularly see in the clubs; there are strippers I have only seen a few times, but we've fucked in the club; and there is currently a stripper I fuck on a regular basis. But none of them are "girlfriends" and none of them are ATFs. They are strippers I pay for sex, and I am one of their customers. That's all. I don't kid myself into thinking there is more to the "relationship," and I don't want more, because I already have a wife, and don't want a girlfriend. And I don't want an ATF either.
discussion comment
16 years ago
I do not think you are being completely paranoid, but I do think the risks are small. In 25 years of seeing various kinds of sex workers, I had a bad experience once. The girl's "boyfriend" showed up where we were and got really psycho. I don't think it was planned, I just think he showed up, but I'll never know for sure. I left unscathed and unrobbed, but it could have certainly turned out differently. Clearly the underlying problem was that hardcore drugs were involved, which can make people act nutty. Incidentally, I had plenty of "warning signs" that things weren't right, but proceeded ahead anyway very much against my better judgment.
Notwithstanding that one bad experience, I have taken loads of extraordinary risks, and yet have had nothing bad happen to me -- seeing girls in seemingly dangerous neighborhoods or venues, picking them up right off the street, having sex in public or semi-public settings, etc. Despite all that, except for that one time, nothing bad has happened, in dozens and dozens of experiences.
Partly, obviously, it is just dumb luck. Partly, I put it down to being sensitive to the vibe I pick up. If something seems askew, I stay away. But if she seems alright and is just looking to make some $$$, I'll go for it even if it seems like it should be risky. If I feel like I can trust a girl, I'm usually right. Indeed, the one time I felt I couldn't trust her, I was right about that too (I just didn't listen to my instincts).
Part of my good luck, I think, is that the safety odds are stacked in the customer's favor. The sex workers, after all, make money by being sex workers. If they go around threatening, robbing or beating up their customers, obviously, word will get out, and no one will see them. It seems to me there is no angle for a stripper to make her living by arranging set ups with her boyfriend to beat up her customers. Word would get out, and she would get fired. On the other hand, there are guys out there who are seeing sex workers for all sorts of strange reasons, and some of them will engage in violence, or rob the sex worker, etc. I think the girls have a much greater, and more legitimate fear of violence than we do. I know of several girls who have told me about being robbed, beat up, having knives or guns pointed at them, etc. I have never met a guy (even in the virtual world) who has actually be robbed or beaten. (Of course I have heard of guys who have been ripped off by crummy or non-existent service, but that's a different story.)
Finally, I think there are sensible precautions you can take to minimize the risk. I admit I do not always follow these rules (as noted, I have taken a lot of chances over the years), but when I am thinking clearly I try to follow them. For strippers, it's a good idea to get to know the girl before seeing her OTC. That means seeing her on more than one occasion in the club. I like to know that she has friends in the club, i.e., other girls who will talk about her outside her presence in a positive way. It is a warning sign to me if the girl has no friends in the club. I also always want to get the girl's cell phone number, and her actual name. If I have her cell #, I can usually trace it to see who is the owner. If I can verify her name, I can do a full background check, and I have actually done that on some girls when I am planning to see them for an extended period of time. I am not worried so much about violence, but rather about attempts at extortion. If I see a girl for any period of time, she will invariably be able to figure out my actual name no matter what I do, and thus figure out everything about me (I am "googleable"). So I don't even try to hide my identity; but as a result, I like to have an even playing field and know their identity. This way I can stay away from anyone who had a serious criminal record. And if I am concerned about meeting a girl in a hotel room, then I will ask to meet her elsewhere (e.g., a bar or diner), and then go to the hotel from there.
For regular escorts, again, when I am thinking sensibly, I will not see anyone who is not TER reviewed. This is not so much for safety reasons, as it is because I do not want to be the victim of a rip off in terms of poor service.
In sum, I think that with common sense you can avoid most risks of violence. Personally, I am more concerned about the risks of disease, pregnancy, extortion and the possibility of less than optimal service.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Fascinating. I've always told my teenage son that he is playing these stupid computer games with aging single guys who have too much time on their hands. I guess I was right. Are you guys slightly mortified that you are playing computer games with 14 year old boys?
discussion comment
16 years ago
In answer to the OP: No; no; n/a; n/a; no.
discussion comment
16 years ago
casualguy: Totally clueless. I'm very careful.
discussion comment
16 years ago
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Book GuyI write it like I mean it, but mostly they just want my money.
I have to disagree slightly with Jablake. If having a really intelligent partner is important to you, then you need to stick to your guns. We all have different tastes and different standards, but I refuse to spend the limited time I have on this earth fucking around with someone who is not interesting to me. On the other hand, I agree you cannot judge a profile at face value. A lot of women deliberately try to dumb themselves down, because they are worried men are intimidated by (or at least not attracted to) smart women. So if a woman seems a little vapid in her profile, she may be faking it.
As for parodyman and shadowcat, I have been thinking of doing a satire of them and other prolific posters, but I am concerned it would cause offense.
discussion comment
16 years ago
I love the way threads get hijacked and careen off into different directions -- it is one of the funniest things about this site.
discussion comment
16 years ago
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Book GuyI write it like I mean it, but mostly they just want my money.
Bobby is right. The "sex dating" websites are all a scam designed to get men to get paid subscriptions. They try to make it look like there are women on the site, but the actual real life women are outnumered by men by a factor of 10 to 1. Most of the women profiles are fake and are just there to get you to upgrade to a paid subscription. These things also populate Craigslist and the like -- most of the postings supposedly by women looking for casual no strings sex are actually fake and are designed to lure you into going to a paid website and getting a subscription. When you are getting sent emails, they are quite fake. In fact, they are probably written by guys who are paid employees of the subscription web site. The extreme numerical imbalance between men and women on the sex dating sites, by the way, is further proof of which group is more interested in no strings sex. On the other hand you will find more women on places like match.
discussion comment
16 years ago
It depends on the state. Beyond that no one can provide meaningful advice.
By the way, your first time experience on weed is very typical -- most people have little or no high the first time they smoke. Keep smoking and trust me you will get stoned.
As for the chances you are taking I won't even mention some of the ridiculous drug-related chances I took on my recent stripper trip -- it's too embarassing. Luckily no one got caught.
discussion comment
16 years ago
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Book GuyI write it like I mean it, but mostly they just want my money.
Jablake: I don't really disagree with you. I think my marriage is a good one, but I also think I am just lucky. My first marriage sucked. And I know a lot of marriages go badly. A friend of mine who is a therapist told me that not only is it true that half of all marriages end in divorce, but half of the intact marriages are unhappy.
I also agree that one of the keys to a happy marriage is sexual compatibility, and in my case that has been achieved by in part by sleeping around.
Having said all that, I still think it is also true that a lot of single guys are unhappy and lonely. I guess Thoreau was right when he said the mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.
The one thing I will say for marriage is that if it is a good relationship it can be a great source of emotional satisfaction. I think I am like most guys in that most of my positive emotional relationships have been with women. Most men -- myself included -- are somehow poorly equipped to handle and express our emotions. I am much smarter than my wife, for example, but she is much more emotionally astute. Thus if you are in a good marriage, then you can enjoy a constant source of emotional support. As I get older that becomes more important to me.
Also, my kids have been the most important and best thing that has ever happened to me, so my marriages (even the first one) are important for that reason as well.
I still think more attention should be paid to single men and some of the challenges they are facing (like what Book Guy has described).
discussion comment
16 years ago
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Book GuyI write it like I mean it, but mostly they just want my money.
Book Guy: you are describing a really tough situation. Given the way you feel, and what you feel is happening to you, honestly maybe there is no solution.
I will not BS you. If you're pushing 40, the likelihood that you can regularly get a 20 year old to fuck you for free is slim to none unless you suddenly become very rich. I don't think that is going to change, regardless of the "culture" of our society. I'm attracted to young women too, but luckily, I am also attracted to women my age and everything in between. If you are ONLY attracted to 20 year olds, it is going to be a tough road ahead. There are exceptions, but they are pretty rare. Once during my 1st marriage I had an affair with a girl in her early 20s (I was in my mid-30s), but it was a fluke and it only lasted 4 months. I just think you have to be a realist and accept that is not going to happen as a general rule. And, yes, the young girls are going to be pretty cruel about making you feel stupid for trying to get their attention.
It seems to me your options are paying for it, or broadening your tastes to include women who are not quite so young.
I don't know where you live, and so maybe the demographics are different in your area. But where I live the women start singing a different tune when they are in their 30s and they are still not married and don't have kids. Anyone who doubts the desire of women in that age group to have children, respectfully, has not spent a lot of time around single women in their 30s (and if they are still single when they hit 40, then they get really desperate). Are there exceptions, sure, but in general 90% of the women out there want kids, and their time period for doing that is limited.
Likewise, I really disagree with anyone who thinks most women in their 30s and 40s are not looking for a LTR. Just go on match.com or any similar site -- there are gillions of them. And if they think you are a possible catch, they will fuck on Date # 1 in order to hook you.
The only women in the "cat bird seat" are the hot ones in their 20s. Once they are in their 30s, the power starts shifting in your favor. That's why there are a lot of unattractive, fat men who are able to snag pretty good looking women.
The only thing they have in their favor is our unreasoning desire for sex. And yes, our sex drive is stronger. Ask any sex therapist, look at polling data, and last but not least, look at sex web sites of any kind -- they are all male dominated. There are reasons for this -- we have a ton more testosterone in our system than they do. (It's actually used as a chemical therapy for both men and women who have low sex drive -- the difference being that men will use much, much more. If you ever meet a women who is transitioning to be a man, you will find she is on a heavy testosterone therapy -- and she/he is going to be as horny as we are. But that's the exception that proves the rule.) The fact that some women in some categories may get laid more often doesn't prove otherwise. It just shows the women are trading their pussy for something they want. And the quickest point of access to pussy is a committed relationship (well, that and cold hard cash).
I realize that doesn't do you any good if you find all women over 30 unattractive, or if you find the idea of having a committed relationship unappealing. If that's your situation, then you are kind of fucked. I'm not trying to be mean. Just honest.
But personally I think having sex once a month (or once every six months -- yikes) sounds horrible, and if I were ever in that spot I'd get a little more flexible about my taste in women. The big advantage of having a good marriage is that you have ready access to sex. I boinked my wife twice this past weekend. I think a healthy dose of sex during marriage runs about 2 to 3 times per week. Add to that the fooling around I do with strippers/escorts on the side, and it's pretty easy to have sex 3 to 6 times a week. If I went a month without sex I think my balls would burst.
I know, I know, a lot of marriages are crummy and the sex is non-existent. We have neighbors where (according to the wife) they haven't had sex in a year. But that's not a reason to stay out of LTRs. That's a reason to stay out of crummy LTRs. And that means being really upfront about what you want, and then making the effort to make sure it happens. Early in a relationship it just happens, of course, because you're hot for each other. But after a while you are going to have to work at it. My wife and I have been together for years, but we do shit to keep it interesting (e.g., this weekend we were at a huge party, like a hundred people; we were both feeling horny, so we went upstairs and fucked in one of the rooms. If we had just waited until we went home after the party, we would have been too tired to have sex. By having a "do it now" mentality, we made it more exciting.)
You make your life sound like it's had long patches barren of sex. That's never happened to me during my entire adult life, and for a very simple reason: I've ALWAYS been in a marriage or some other LTR. I have no other special quality to make women attracted to me. As a general rule, I don't think they are attracted to me. But I've always been in a relationship, and that's given me a solid base of sexual release. To add variety, I've kept extra sex on the side with sex workers and the occasional civilian affair.
I really believe that's a winning formula for loads of sex. Plus you're never lonely. But it does not get you random sex with young civilian hotties. I just accept that it is not happening. And I would go further, I don't want it, because I don't want sex with those kind of women/girls to ever turn into a "relationship." Spend a lot of time with someone who is 20 (as I did last week) and you realize pretty quickly how insipid they can be. I'd rather keep my sexual relations with young women on a strictly busines level.
I am not suggesting writing off looks as a factor. Personally, I just can't. I am not going to fuck an ugly or fat hag. But I can find a number of different types of women attractive. Shit I dated a civilian in her 50s a couple years back who was smoking. And older women are often better in bed. I'm often shocked at how often young women suck (no pun intended) at blow jobs, and don't know the first thing about how to fuck. But you can't change your taste in women, and if you really are only attracted to the really young ones, I'm not sure what you can do.
discussion comment
16 years ago
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Book GuyI write it like I mean it, but mostly they just want my money.
This is the second recent OP that really makes me feel terrible for the single guys out there. I think this is a subject that does not get the attention it deserves.
Book Guy: You seem like a nice person. I would submit the world is not as bad as it seems at times. But I would also submit there are realistic limits on what is possible in this world. If you accept those limits (or just recognize that they exist and you can't do much about them), you will feel less involved in any "battle".
I gather you are either in your 40s or at least your late 30s. I take it you are well educated and at least "normal" looking. You apparently have the right education to be a professional of some sort, but you are not incredibly wealthy. You have a normal sex drive (for a guy). You apparently have never been married, and maybe you've never been in a long term committed relationship (i.e., where you are actually living with the girl full time for a year or more).
I submit the first thing you need to decide is what you are trying to achieve. If you are trying to find random casual sex with young hotties -- then you are right. It will never happen, unless you pay for it.
Why is that?
First, the pool of women who are interested in random casual sex (without pay) is very, very small. Women just have a much lower sex drive than we do. They are primarily interested in LTRs, not sex. If you find a woman half as interested in sex as you are, count yourself unusually lucky. Think about it -- there are almost no porn sites, no escorts and no strip clubs aimed solely at women. Why? Because there is no demand.
Second, within that small pool, the few women who are sex driven are not going to be interested in you. Why not? First, they are going to tend to be young, and they are going to be engaged in a youthful indiscretion, so they are focusing on guys their own age. Second, just like you, if they are really just looking for shallow, purely sexual experiences, they are going to focus on guys who are not merely good looking, but guys who are totally hot -- guys who work out every day, sport a six pack, etc. (And, no, they won't care that those guys are morons.) Third, to the extent that they might ever go outside the group of guys who are young and hot, it will be for guys who are rich and powerful (because women are attracted to wealth and power).
And again, this is a very small group of women to begin with. So, respectfully, you have to give up on the idea of random, casual sex with a young hottie. It won't happen unless you pay for it. That's why strip clubs and hookers exist.
That's the sad reality. But there is a positive, more cheerful perspective as well.
If you are looking for an emotionally fulfilling relationship (which includes good sex) that IS possible as well. Unlike the sex bimbo dead end, this is playing to your strengths. Because the vast, vast majority of women want nothing more (and nothing less) than a long term, commmitted relationship leading to marriage. Even when they won't admit it even to themselves, most women want that relationship (and really want to get married). This is why the "sex and the city" movie is so fucking popular with women, and with women all across the spectrum in terms of race, social class, etc.
Depending on where you live, it is extremely possible (easy, even) to find a woman who is interested in a long term committed relationship. This is what most women want anyway. I happen to live in the NYC metropolitan area, where the number of available women outnumber the number of available men (because a large percentage of men living in the NYC metro area are jerks, or unemployed, or gay, or have criminal records). So it's a little easier where I live (and, conversely, it's harder for guys living in rural areas). But there are a number of venues for finding women interested in relationships. Picking up a woman at a bar, however, is NOT one of those venues.
But there are some caveats here.
Women want to find a guy who shows he is interested in a committed relationship. I went on an online dating site once and posted a profile that was all about how I wanted a real relationship. I got dozens of responses within hours. (And not just internet responses. I went out on dates and had sex on the 1st date with several of the women who responded.) Why? Most guys only talked about themselves and how they wanted women who looked hot. That's not what women are looking for. They are looking for guys who show they are serious about settling down. If you have never been married and never lived with a woman long term, that will count against you, and you will need to explain that history.
Women want financial security. I cannot overemphasize how important this is. It may seem crass, but they want men who are well off. You don't have to be rich (although it helps), but you do usually need to be gainfully employed. Women are really wary of men who cannot seem to hold down a job.
You can go down in age (typically 5 to 10 years) because lots of women are happy to marry older guys anyway. But this is a potential issue for someone your age. A lot of women in their 30s and early 40s are really crazy about having kids, and are scared to death that they will blow it if they wait too long. So if you do not demonstrate quickly that you are ready to settle down and start a family, they will assume you are commitment-phobic, and they will dump you fast and move onto the next guy. They aren't trying to be mean. They just feel like they have no time to waste.
Unless you are really rich or unusually lucky, you cannot get a girl more than 10 years younger. The young girls will want guys their own age (can you blame them?). You have to give up on the girls in their 20s.
In terms of looks, this is much less important to them, as a general rule, than it is to us. As long as you are within the bounds of "normal," they don't care. On the other hand, they will try to look good for you. Most women in the dating world get it, that is, they understand we want them to be attractive. I think it is ok to be upfront about what it important to you. I think if you date a girl who is fat and pretend you don't care (when you really do care) you are asking for trouble. But on the other hand, given that you are talking about women in their 30s and 40s, you have to accept the reality that they are not going to be totally hot -- they are going to show signs of wear and tear as they get older, that's just the way it is.
In sum, you can leave the battle of the sexes and find a happy relationship with a woman, BUT
*don't expect to find someone in her 20s;
*accept the fact that she won't be a 10 in looks (but ask yourself honestly, are most of the strippers and whores "10s"? No, if you saw them walking down the street in normal clothes you wouldn't even notice most of them; what makes them unusual is that they are willing to act slutty; my wife is in her 40s and she looks better than most of the strippers I see);
*be aware that there may be pressure to move forward quickly to have children;
*you need to have a job or some other visible source of income; and
*more than anything else in the world, you need to be able to show that you are ready for a LTR, and to explain (probably without extended references to strippers and hookers) why you have never gotten married until now
You can't have a fantasy. You cannot get a 20 year old hottie to suck you off for free just because she thinks you're so smart and so hot. That's never happening. But not all women are vicious or manipulative either. Some are decent, just like some men are decent. You can have reality -- a nice, attractive woman who cares about you and with whom you are happy. And reality is pretty good.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Wow, this is a really depressing thread. Is this what life is like for aging single guys on a Saturday night -- internet porn, computer games and going out to strip clubs, while you are feeling the squeeze of hard economic times? This is why I have always maintained a wife and family -- it requires extra work, to be sure, but I have a real life, not a faux life spent on the fantasy of a strip club or a computer screen. Poll after poll after poll shows married men are happier than single men, and this is why. Between friends, family and work, spending a Saturday night on line or at a strip club would be inconceivable to me -- and really lonely. My heart goes out to the single guys on this site.
discussion comment
16 years ago
I am not trying to limit your free speech. However, I suspect you and I disagree on just about every issue under the sun except that we are both sexually attracted to women. I come to this site -- presumably like most people -- because I am interested in strip clubs and related issues. I would not want to constantly impose on other site members by beating them over the head with my political opinions (some or many of which they might find objectionable). I would not think it would be fair, because they are here to talk about strippers, etc., not guns, abortion or the war in Iraq -- all important subjects, but I don't think this is the place. The OP was ostensibly about strippers, sort of, and then like a lot of posts it veered off into other parts and finally we are talking about gun control(!). Sometimes it is hard to draw a line, and reasonable minds can differ about what is and what is not off topic. But I think our little chat about guns falls clearly into the latter category. And we have polar opposite opinions on the topic. What is the point of fighting about it on this site? I'd rather stick to girls.