Has easy money spoiled many dancers?

Wow. So, if I'm reading it right, she wanted $1500 for dinner? Or "just" $1k?

Help me out - where is this "Pink" site so often mentioned? I'd like to read that thread.

JC

Fucking GREEDY WHORES!

stripperweb.com

Thanks!

Two hours of my time at my club would cost $800, plus a bottle of champagne. Most guys will tip on top of that.

Usually when a guy buys that much time, the VAST majority of it is spent sitting and talking. If a guy just wants a long string of dances, he'll generally opt for the half-hour option, or avoid the champagne room all together. I don't $1000 is unreasonable for a four-hour dinner.

Per her suggestions of "chance of more OTC time" and "wont get any action for free" I think she expects $1000 for dinner and some sex if he gives her a big tip, like probably another $1000.

Considering some attorneys charge $400 per hour it doesn't seem unreasonable.

The market determines value and even though strippers don't have to have 7 years of schooling and a stripper exam - many believe they are worth lawyer rates and some have made equal of more than many lawyers. However this particular customer probably was hyped that it was HER initial idea to have the dinner and he probably got a big wakeup call during the dinner, and in combination with getting drunk, probably said the hell with it

Except that $400/hr lawyer is probably saving your ass from a multi milion dollar law suit. Slightly more important than talking too/ getting jerked off by a cute young girl, I would say.

I love this quote "guys push so much for time OTC but cant follow through, why ruin it for your selves and others?"

Really, like there is really this huge shortage of dancers willing to be paid 1000 dollars for dinner conversation.

If the the $400 per hour attorney wins, then yes especially where the case is excellent as confirmed by other $300 to $400 attorneys. And, if he doesn't win then the cute young girl looks like the true bargain.

It is like when you pay protection money. Generally an excellent bargain even at a few hundred per hour unless you still get your legs broken.

Anybody that is dumb enough to pay those prices deserves what he gets. I have never paid a dancer for conversation ITC or for a meal with me OTC. Dinner will usually get me a good kiss. A quote from the 60's "The love is free but the sex will cost you $$$."

Interesting what this dancer calls a "tip." When one for example has a private 15 minute dance in a club, the house fee in some clubs might be lets say 30 dollars and the (sometimes negotiable) fee to the dancer might be 100 dollars, then sometimes you might throw in 10 or 20 dollars for a TIP. This woman wants her entire champagne room FEE in my opinion, as tips are or should be based upon customer satisfaction.

Maybe the guy thought he was just going to pay her just a regular "tip" and found out she meant 1000 dollars/

Also, what kind of "conversation" can most dancers offer that is worth 1000 dollars? Now there are exceptions, (some who post in here OF COURSE and the famous "Melonie" from the Pink Site) however based upon 100's of dancers I've had conversations with, I've only met a handful that have more than 2 brain cells to rub together.

Oh their "time" and "companionship" is worth the money. Yeah right.

Maybe this guy finally wised up.

Fer fuck sake! What is wrong with some people? I would not pay $1000 to talk to the friggin' Virgin Mary for two hours!

A thousand bucks ain't dog sh*t to some folks. Heck, $5 is a big deal to me, but when you see guys tipping $20s like they're $1s it sort of becomes evident that not everyone is dead poor.

When an attorney makes $400 an hour then generally I'd say the cute dancer is cheap at $1000 for two hours--I guess it really depends on who delivers the goods. The cute dancer is more likely to be successful, imo. :) The Virgin Mary is worth about $2 if she gets lost fast.

If the dancer is tatted, then maybe $50 an hour is fair. Figure her value is reduced 90%, imo.

The customer may have requested to be compensated for the value of HIS time to use as offset against the 1000 dollar "tip", and the dancer may then have told him "You are a worthless chump and your time to me is worth ZERO".

That's probably went he got drunk and left, and perhaps headed to a bridge to jump off

Lol, considering the current prevailing attitude toward strippers on this board I would hardly call any money that they make "easy".

Hi Yoda,

Actually, the attitude seems far worse amongst my buddies. :( Mainly, they just seemed pissed that it isn't real which just seems so dumb. And, generally they aren't dumb--at least in their own areas of expertise.

Countless times I've heard that she's only interested in your money. I always think and even if that is true where's the problem? I'm interested in her hot young body and very happy she is willing to sell her body, time, and skill.

All strippers as entertainers basically sell the idea of sex and that's when the bargained for exchange works out best for both parties. The girls get the cash and the guys get the private dance or whatever, and both go home feeling good that night. Some now and then also do light or heavy "extras" and as long as the dancer consents, ok, it can work for both parties.

The big problems seem to happen when an ATF type "relationship" develops and the signals get mixed up and the stripper sells not only the idea of sex but the idea of romance or (worst) the substance of romance. Now obviously the client should know that almost all of this (except in very rare instances) is all part of the larger game. At the same time, many strippers once they see the big dollars flowing will often tend to ratchet up the charade. Now eventually these things just topple over, and the above case could be one of those situations.

This is getting totally OUT OF HAND and CRAZY!!

Like my brother said.... Anybody that is dumb enough to pay those prices deserves what he gets. I second that. And any DANCER that would charge MONEY just for conversation is a total SLUT and WHORE!

Get real guys! Go to a fucking shrink and pay $100 an hour for them to hear your problems!! You might even luck out and find a good looking lady shrink to listen!!

MIDancer - I don't $1000 is unreasonable for a four-hour dinner. ---- My question issssss... does this include 8 hours of pure raw uninhibited lusty freaky and kinky SEX? If so, I might be interested.

Lets look at actual value: Walmart pays what, 8 dollars an hour, which SOME dancers might qualify for. So that's 32 dollars minus taxes or about 28 bucks real value for this lady for 4 hours of work, although at Walmart the work doesn't consist of sitting on your ass and talking and eating a fancy meal and getting loaded.

Obviously this guy had he intended to pay that kind of money was obviously "in love" with the lady and the dancer knew it, so she tried to exploit it and the guy walked, or in this case stumbled out

I would assume HE paid for the dinner, and her portion alone had to worth well over 50 dollars given all the wine etc

Even assuming she was due wages of some type ,she's still ahead at least 20 dollars

Nothing to complain about really

Maybe this is like the Rosa Parks (civil rights) watershed event, where some strip club sucker/chump patron finally said "THIS IS IT, TAKE YOUR STRIPPER HEELS AND GET LOST"

This is but what example why I believe the fees paid to dancers over the past decade or so have become inflated, and will have to be adjusted downwards soon to reflect true economic reality.

Compare this situation to the 4 hour rate for an escort, this particular lady who travels to various major cities for several weeks at a time, and who does EVERYTHING, i.e FULL GFE included kissing (if that matters) and her entire cost is 650 dollars thelovelymialee.com

You could have a room service meal plus talk plus sex -cheaper

No, Bones, it doesn't... and this is precisely why I have never in my five years of dancing done any sort of OTC; if I can get them to pay me that sort of money just to talk to them INSIDE the club, why BOTHER with OTC? The cost-benefit analysis just doesn't pay off in my opinion.

And I disagree, charging for conversation is part of the game... If a guy wants me to sit and chat beyond one song (if asked to, I'm generally I'm willing to sit for a song or less), it will cost him. When I'm at work, my TIME costs money, regardless of whether that time is spent getting a lap dance or chatting at a table.

Hi David9999,

The way I'm looking at it is TIME and SKILL. A good portion of the women that I know in the business would want to charge the same for freaky hot sex or conversation. It just doesn't make much difference to them and in fact the sex might be perferable because it is easier. Yes, sex can be easier than holding an interesting conversation for hours or pretending to be in love. Also, one complaint that I have with dancers is for most it is difficult for them to keep up the act. You want hardcore action--easy. You want a GFE that isn't so easy apparently. I've found women who seem to have no problem with that, but those women are rare. And, I'm eager to do business with them and they don't lack in clients from what I can see. Worse, they tend to burn out or move on quicker generally.

The Walmart example doesn't hold up if you think about it a little more. How much is an attorney worth fixing roofs? Most of those guys I'd probable end up throwing off the roof. How much is an attorney worth as a dancer? Generally, they just don't got the body. $3 per hour would be too much for some of these attorneys unless they promised to keep their clothing on.

One point MIDancer raises is why should the dancer go to all the trouble of OTC if the client doesn't want to pay? Is she sort on business? Is the work easier? Read MIDancer's second paragraph it makes a lot of sense, imo.

Finally, for the man who just wants the sex from the hot dancer that really shouldn't be a problem so don't waste your money paying for something you don't value as highly i.e. conversation.

The other issue is what does the client value? Believe it or not for some clients especially old farts the value of the sex act is fairly low. They may want romance or a trophy or who knows what. If the woman wants to charge $2,000 per hour for conversation and it meets some clients needs, then it might be a good deal for both parties. How much are these football players worth? What the market will bear? Does it make any difference that it isn't a free market?

MIDancer hit the nail on the head with her second paragraph. The customer doesn't want to pay for the dancer's TIME, then he needs to find a different dancer or escort or other form of entertainment.

I did have a much longer post, but it didn't post. Essentially, how much is an attorney worth working on a roof or dancing or playing football? Really how much are they worth as attorneys? Does it make any difference if it isn't a free market? In my experience it is just an extortion racket.

I am wondering if even Jayblake understands his own logic?

How much is the typical non-star NFL football player worth if he has to work at Walmart? Assuming Walmart will even hire him.

It is funny how it seems like pro-capitalists object when a dancer who may not have any real value at Walmart does have value in other areas of life. Looks, imo, are extremely valuable and worth paying for. If they ain't valuable, then it is NO problemo because there are plenty of ugly women available.

How much do some of these super models make? Millions? For what? Looking good. What do some sports stars make? Millions? For what? Entertainment. So a cute young woman who might not have any value at Walmart or Burger King wants $1,000 for 2 hours of conversation. Big deal. If the buyer doesn't feel it is a fair value, then there are other avenues of entertainment. A bunch. If it is just sex, then plenty of escorts are available.

Is an attorney worth $1,000 for 2 hours. Definitely if he can win. I think the cute young women is a better gamble. :)

One thing I do disagree with MIDancer about on this compensation issue is that it isn't just TIME. It is SKILL even if that means keeping your mouth shut or conversely giving a good fantasy via conversation. How much was the phone sex charging? $6 a minute? I don't know, but I remember it seemed expensive. So at $6 a minute that would be $720 for 2 hours. I'd rather have a hot woman in person for the extra $280 and in fact that seems like a steal in comparison.

I still remember this fat tough biker who said any man who pays for a woman is a pussy. And, he is bragging that he gets sex on demand. I ask the obvious, imo, what does she look like? Suddenly big bad biker boy isn't so bitching. Yep, his woman was more disgusting than I had feared. I said look I'm thrilled to be able to pay for good looks and performance. And, of course he starts up with the nonsense that looks are irrelevant. Because he doesn't mind or likes blubber and open sores and missing teeth and tats, then everyone has to feel the same way. He also mentions he is no beauty queen---what an understatement, but he was more attractive than his woman. :(

It really comes down to the price of beauty or the price of fantasy. Those worthless paintings that I would put in the trash go for what? Millions? They're complete garbage. Who would hang that Mona Lisa (sp?) in their home? It is an eye sore. :( Yet, it is worth millions. If I couldn't profit from it, then I'd much rather spend millions on cute dancers. Who was the Clinton official, married btw, who was paying his mistress over $250,000 of his own money? I think he was in charge of housing. What little I saw of the man---the woman definitely was earning her money. He just seemed like garbage, imo.

Historically, I believe some hot consorts truly banked by todays standards, at least that is the view expressed in one book. :) If true, then maybe it was because beauty was even rarer?

Yoda, by "prevailing attitude" are you referring to the two or three guys whose posts account for most of the word count on the board lately? Bear in mind, in order to be considered prevailing, their typing exhibitions would need to be read by somebody, which I doubt is happening.

Excellent point Chandler.....

FROM CUSTOMER CONVERSATION thread: "guys want OTC time but dont want to follow through...?"

Here's another PREVAILING ATTITUDE (i.e. dancer ass-kissing) often demonstrated on the Pink Site by certain male posters, in this case from a well known TUSCL.com contributor

(quote)

"Well, the guy was an a-hole. Don't let being drunk pass for an excuse. Sadly some of these losers think that, once you are out with them, the dinner and their incredibly banal conversation should be enough to make you happy. It sounds like you were very clear with the guy about what the costs would be for his OTC experience. There is really no excuse for his behavior. I've done OTC for pay and for fun and every girl I've done it with for pay has a story or two like yours. Look, I don't want to compare OTC dinner dates to escorting but it IS play for pay just the same and you should always get the money up front."

(end quote)

The reality is the pink site poster Kat3322 usual typical chick-speak has either negligently or purposefully left out certain facts (e.g precisely verbatim what she said to the guy, how he responded, the OTC prior history, whether she's lead-on the guy in the past, what precisely did she mean by her "initiating" the dinner, did she call him? etc), preferring to keep it a bit vague, so her fellow posters, including the usual male suckups, can play the violin strings about the BIG BAD MAN

"you should always get the money up front."

Never pay whores/strippers up front! (Hopefully this point is obvious to readers here.)

Decent chance they will walk on you early or threaten to call their boyfriend/pimp on you.

If they insist on being paid up fron to them, tell them you got ripped before so aren't doing that again. If they insist, tell them you'll find someone else.

jablake - good market analysis, however you've left out an important fact in regards to the "Kat 3322, the 1000 dollar dinner lady, her market value (while pre-dinner at least) is obviously accurate since you have a willing seller and (apparently) a willing buyer at that price.

However, if for example she were some world class escort (assume dinner-only for the moment) - then she would just get another customer, maybe some more advertising and a bit of time, another 1000 dollar guy

Seems to me she doesn't have that many other fools waiting around to pay 1000 dollars for dinner precisely because odds are this guy is an ATF type who has either been strung for many months or perhaps years. Her market here is ONE, and that market has failed.

Hi David9999,

I think the NFL, although not a free market, provides repeated good examples. Kurt Warner was working as a bag boy for Publix. He kept trying and trying. Lucky for him the Rams had a couple key injuries at QB and suddenly he is the man. So was he worth hundreds of thousands that one NFL team was willing to pay or should he have been happy with any bag boy opportunity? A better example is Leslie Shepard of the Miami Dolphins. He had a fantastic year at receiver. He thought and his agent thought that he would get a nice contract offer from some team. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Nothing. So instead of getting a nice contract or any contract he was out of football. Jay Fiedler out of football bouncing around and unemployed a good deal of time finally lands a lucrative contract with the Dolphins. Junior Seau for the Patriots. The story goes that Seau was being interviewed at his retirement and the reporter incorrectly stated that Seau didn't want to play anymore. Well, Seau corrected him and said that he and his agent were unable to find a team even willing to pay him league minimum. The coach of the Pats allegedly hears that and presto Seau has a new job with a Super Bowl caliber team.

The point being you don't have to be "world class" to command good compensation.

Another example is over at Angels there was a $5 dancer. I kept telling her The Trap. The Trap. The Trap. That is if she cared a lot about money, which she didn't. Finally, she goes to The Trap (I think she had a conflict at Angels) and BOOM suddenly she has a line of customers (inlcuding me) willing to pay her either $20 or $25 per dance. With the right customers she is gold. She 1) couldn't understand that and 2) you have to find the customers!

The point? Half the battle is finding the customers. Actually I think it is often 99% of the battle. :)

I've paid them upfront. Sometimes it has paid off big in my favor and other times I've been burnt!

There really aren't a ton of women who have the looks, the skill, and the willingness to perform that I'm looking for. Oh before some moron says well you're only paying $5 so you get what you pay, I have been to Tootsies. That really doesn't have what I'm looking for. I have just as much or more chance hanging out at the $5 clubs. And, if Tootsies does have what I'm looking for then the prices I'm being quoted are $25 for 3 minutes. That is out of my budget. :(

JB- fyi, MINIMUM NFL Salaries- $285K for rookies, $360K-$820K veterans, variable 1-10 plus yrs.

To OP- As Bones last post says. Easy to lose (assuming they ever had it) ones perspective in some things. Aside from making big real estate sale, or stock "score", how many jobs (careers) pay that kind of money?

Another consideration when talking about the dancer who charges $500 per hour. It isn't like she is booked for 8 straight hours generally. Nor can she invent hours as attorneys are free to do. Furthermore, she really isn't an employee. More like self-employed.

As to chandler's point. Prevailing attitude has nothing to do with how many people are reading this board. I would think he just "misspoke." But, to clarify. 500 million people could be avidly reading every word of the posters. Or zero could be reading. It has absolutely nothing to with the prevailing attitude on the board. Zero. Zip. Nada Nothing. :)

BTW, I think the prevailing attitude although I haven't taken a head count is very negative toward dancers on this board.

Of course, the numbers of "readers" whether zero or 500 million has nothing to do with the prevailing attitude. I also think, but haven't done any polling that the prevailing attitude of customers in general toward dancers is negative. Furthermore, imo, it is the customers who are generally "delusional" or "dumb." :) Yes, sireeee the expectation that a dancer is going to become your girlfriend is all too common and the "rage" that dancers charge too much for basically "partying" is also all too real, imo. :)

Bones Bro: It is posts like MIDancer that make me appreciate just how lucky I am to have friends that are strippers. She sounds like a pink site ROB and I think that she is trying to feed us stripper shit about how much money she makes.

MIdancer: With your attitude, you could never make it in my favorite club and it is rated in the TUSCL top 10 clubs.

I think it is interesting also that it is assumed by some posters that the customer would prefer sex or lapping to conversation.

There was and probably is a wealthy old man that regularly brought hot young girls to the Club Diamonds. The purpose was to buy VIP dances for the hot young girl. He never had any interest in watching. The dancer or dancers would take the hot young woman to the VIP for who knows how many dances. Could it have been $500 per hour worth? Could definitely be more especially if you include the cost of the young girl he brought.

Is he stupid?

I guess to some people he has to be because not only isn't he getting to see the dancers and the hot young woman do whatever it is they're doing in the VIP, he isn't getting any contact! So essentially he is paying BIG bucks for conversation.

Surprise, surprise, but I don't think the wealthy old guy is stupid just because he doesn't have standard issue tastes. :)

ROB??? I always thought a Rip of Bitch was a dancer who promised more than she delivered or engaged in fraud such as over counting. Now it is being extended to include dancers who charge as much as the market will bear? What a freaking joke. :(

MID DANCER states "Two hours of my time at my club would cost $800, plus a bottle of champagne. Most guys will tip on top of that. Usually when a guy buys that much time, the VAST majority of it is spent sitting and talking. If a guy just wants a long string of dances, he'll generally opt for the half-hour option, or avoid the champagne room all together. I don't (think) $1000 is unreasonable for a four-hour dinner."

Personally I do not believe this sounds like a pink site ROB as I understand the term, however I can understand what ShadowCat is saying, at least in the context of not fraud, but of the typical industry-wide SS deceptions or tricks many dancers use to get certain partrons into extended overpiced champagne sessions. Obviously many of these guys are gullible fools, and for some the money doesn't matter, and some actually just want to "talk" - so for this later category they get exactly what they've bargained for. Step back for a moment and look at these fees, one then has to admit the cash being paid for some of these sessions have arguably reached a level of insanity.

Yeah apparently there are (or at least were) some weirdos willing to shell out the big bucks just for conversation (I've heard up to $1.5 Gs for an hour and half). WTF is wrong with these people????

Hi Boobyl,

Change your body and wallet to that of the "weirdos" and you might see the value in shelling out the "big bucks" just for conversation----with an attractive woman.

Believe it or not, I think intelligence comes into play more often than one would think. Imagine that you are so mentally sharp that people of ordinary intelligence seem like complete and total morons. So brain dead that the government needs to tell them what to think and when think and how to think. Imagine further that you have money to burn. Conversation with the right attractive woman might seem very appealing even at a "high" price because it is your brain that needs the work out more than your body.

Also, consider that your new body may be of the 15 second variety. A burst of pleasure followed by nothing, but tiredness. A real let down. An attractive woman skilled in presenting herself and entertaining might seem like a godsend. Sex might just be an anti-climax. :( I was watching a documentary on the Japanese and how they generally interact with their "hookers." Far more cerebral, if true, than how a typical American would do it.

Shadowcat: I don't understand how you could possibly define me as a rip-off bitch. I don't overcount dances, I don't ask for/demand tips, and I deliver exactly what I promise. If a guy wishes for me to sit for more than one song, then I kindly explain to him that I require compensation. Some guys agree to compensate me for further company, some don't. Regardless, MOST guys are very understanding of this, and will even tip me a couple bucks before encouraging me to "go make my money" (some will even track me down later when they're ready for dances). I've even had guys APPLAUD me for "cutting the bullshit" and getting straight to the point. I am in no way rude or pushy, I simply state where I stand, leaving the customer to make his OWN DECISION with regard to how he'll spend his money. However, I stand by the fact that I'm fully within my rights to conduct my business as I deem fit.

Here's a sample conversation to show what a evil ROB I am (/sarcasm):

"Well, honey, are you ready for a dance?" "No, not yet." "Alright then, I have to get back to work. It was really nice meeting you." "Why don't you sit and chat for awhile?" "Sorry, sweetheart, but there are other customers who may be ready for a dance right now, and I wouldn't want to leave them hanging. However, if you'd like, I'd be willing to sit for as many songs as you like for $10 per song (half the cost of a dance)." "You want me to pay you to sit here?" "Well, honey, I AM at work, and its entirely up to your discretion. If you'd rather not, I'm more than willing to check back with you later if you would like." "I'd like that."

(By the way, under these sorts of circumstances, I make it a point to ALWAYS check back; even if I won't sit for free, I want our club's customers to feel welcome and attended to).

I'm sorry if it offends you, but when I'm at WORK, I'm at WORK. If other girls wish to sit and socialize, cut deals, etc., that's their perogative, but I make it a point to maximize my income so long as I'm a stripper.

Furthermore, MOST guys who spend two or more hours in the champagne room generally don't go in with the intention of staying that long (or maybe they do, and I just have no idea). Also, selling a two-hour or three-hour champagne room isn't a nightly, or even weekly occurance (I'd say it happens maybe once a month). MOST will opt for a half-hour initially, and in most cases, I have NO IDEA that he just wants to chat. Usually, I find that out when I remove my top and he'll say something along the lines of "oh, you can leave that on," or after we're a couple dances in, he'll say something like, "you know, I'm not really into dances, do you mind if we just chat?" I also have NO IDEA when its going to turn into a two or three hour session. When the bouncer comes to let us know our time is up, I'll simply ask the customer if he'd like to spend more time in the champagne room (while REMINDING him that it costs $200 per half-hour). If he says yes, that's HIS choice. Furthermore, at that point (and generally several times throughout ANY "chatting" session), I'll continue to offer dances. Sometimes he'll say yes, sometimes no, but it is his money, and if he'd prefer dances to conversation, I'll gladly switch gears. If the situation is vice versa, then conversation it is. It is my job to make my costomer happy and comfortable; if dances aren't what he's looking for, then dances aren't what he's looking for.

Also, as far as I know, "stripper shit" is a device used to extract money from customers, and that the term generally connotates some sort of "mind-fucking" or game-playing. Since no one on this board is a customer of mine (and since I'm clearly not looking for customers here, as I haven't so much as indicated where I work), I don't see how my posts are stripper shit. It is not intent to brag about money (what, precisely, would be the point in that?), but to relate my experience as a dancer (experience that some posters have already shown an appreciation for my decision to share) and gain insight from the customer's perspective as well. And as far as the Pink Site goes, I've posted less than ten times in the YEAR that I've been registered. The only reason I still go to the site is to read the other girls' money-making tips in the "Hustle Hut" forum. But as a whole, I find TUSCL far more interesting and informative.

Lastly, your favorite club is not the sort of club that I'd be interested in working at. In fact, I wouldn't care to work at ANY of Top 10 listed on TUSCL. Dancers and customers value different things in a strip club. I value high-end clientele, high dance prices (with no deals), and low-mileage. From everything I've read about your favorite club, you're right, I wouldn't survive there. But by the same token, I wouldn't WANT to. What you would rate a "10," I'd probably rate a "1" or "2."

My overall well-being (mentally, physically, emotionally) is more important to me that all the money in the world; the money I make is due solely to there being enough customers out there who enjoy my dances and my company enough to pay for them. I am very grateful to those men (and women) who allow me to work in this field in a fashion that's healthy and positive FOR ME. I think that the combination of hard work and sheer luck have made this business a profitable one for me, and for that too I am grateful.

But again, when I am at work, I am at work. I am not there to make friends.

Now, that's not to say that I haven't made friends over the years, but even they know I won't spend more than a couple songs with them (or maybe a drink or two), because my priority while I am in that building is to make money. Requiring that I be compensated for my time doesn't make me evil, it simply makes my approach different than some girls.

It also doesn't mean that money is the end-all for me. Just tonight, I paid for a customer's bar tab after his credit-card was declined (wow, what I rip-off bitch I must be). I consider him a friend, but since he never buys dances, I'll generally share a couple drinks with him at the beginning of my shift (when it's still slow), and then be on my way.

Just because I treat my job like a job says nothing about my attitude. My "attitude" has done nothing but make me well-liked among my managers, my co-workers and, most importantly, my customers. I'm kind, honest, professional and fun. I like my job and I do it well. That I WILL brag about.

David9999: In my club, the MINIMUM rate for a half-hour in the champagne room is only $100, plus a bottle of champagne. In my opinion, that's perfectly reasonable, given what most clubs charge. I choose to charge more than the minimum ($200 per the half hour) because, from what I've gathered, that's STILL below what has been deemed market value. I've never considered my prices unreasonable, as the vast majority of guys who spend time in the champagne room tip in addition to what I charge. If they're still TIPPING in addition to the $200, can you honestly say that it's overpriced? I understand that different people have different perceptions with regard to what qualifies as "overpriced," but if people are ready and willing to make the purchase, can you TRULY call it overpriced?

And just to make this clear to anyone who doubts my integrity, I ALWAYS tell the customer the club-set minimum before I tell him my personal price. So, should he think the price unreasonable, he's (again) welcome to make his OWN DECISION. I don't decieve or trick anyone. In fact, I hardly "push" the champagne room at all (unless the customer has already spent a great deal of money on me). I generally let the customer bring it up on his own, or will discuss it when asked what the other "options" are. I'm also entirely honest about what goes on in the champagne room. I explain UPFRONT that the rules are no different, and that the only difference is the level of privacy and the lack of interruptions (due to things like stage calls, showcases, etc.).

I also require my money UPFRONT (since this issue has arose in this thread, I thought I'd address it); I have seen far too many girls come crying and screaming out of the VIP area or champagne room because some customer agreed to an hour-long champagne session or 20-something dances, and either (a) walked out on her or (b) had his credit/debit card decline. The guys who willingly pay upfront (and behave in gentlemanly fashion) will always get my BEST performance. Guys who hem and haw about paying upfront, and then touch or grab me innappropriately, will get my absolute WORST. And the guys who refuse to pay upfront, won't get ANY performance at all. Furthermore, in nearly every club I've worked for, it's club POLICY that you collect your money upfront. Unfortunately, since non-payment has become such a problem (and management can't spend their entire shift chasing down guys who won't pay), they make collecting upfront a RULE. If you choose not to, you're on your own these days. It is also encouraged so that the dancers are free to discontinue a dance if a customer gets out of line. If you don't collect upfront, and a customer gets too touchy-feely and refuses to desist, how awful it must be to feel as though you have to endure his behavior simply so he doesn't get away with disrespecting your boundaries/sexually assaulting you for free (frankly, I'd walk away from the dance regardless, but I know too many dancers that would allow their boundaries to be trampled on for a measely $20). Perhaps the level of mysogynism is so high on this board that many of you don't care, or think you have the right to do as you please during a dance, but perhaps you should think of how it might feel to have to deal with THAT sort of attitude.

Sex can definitely change things for the worse. A dancer that I'd known a long time allowed me to bring her the big O. It really felt fantastic the way her body responded. The pounding heart. The wetness between her legs. The elongated nipples. It was wonderful for me.

That was pretty much the end of a friendly relationship. :( After the fact--next visit and thereafter--she definitely wasn't a happy camper even though she'd been paid and got off. Believe me, getting her off wasn't worth the fall out. :( Just a huge negative. If my thrill came from conversation, then the "sex" would have ruined everything. And, NO it isn't that easy to find women that I very much like interacting with AND who are attractive AND who aren't here one week and gone the next. And, NO sticking it in the hole isn't a top priority. I definitely need the contact and lots of it and I need the GFE (her ability to convince me that she is a girlfriend).

Anyway, different strokes for different folks. :)

Hi MIDancer,

There is definitely a problem with paying UPFRONT. If the woman is hot enough, then I'll take the risk. Sometimes I'll get burnt (too often) and sometimes it is WOW what a fantastic experience she was able to give me. This one dancer who was really smoking hot asked for money UPFRONT in a club (it is a club rule for dancers to demand payment UPFRONT, btw) where dancers in general never ask for money UPFRONT unless management is beating them up. My initial reaction was to tell her to F off because I'd had bad experiences with paying first and I really wanted to buy dances from her so I was angry about her demand. She was very special and it turned out to be an excellent deal for me. :) I later learned she had been ripped off earlier that same night! :( Some of these customers I see are really the low of the low.

It seems like for shadowcat if a dancer charges more or gives less than he thinks is appropriate than she is a ROB. :( Unfortunately, I think that is normal mentality and not only dancer related. Here in Florida we have auto insurance that is truly a rip off mandated by law. Those who can afford it are generally arrogant SOBs who don't give a damn about those who don't want to be ripped off or who can't afford to be ripped off. Boy, how these arrogant SOBs sing a different tune when they can no longer afford it. Then suddenly they understand that it is a rip off or is "unfair." Bottom line is that for too many people your a ROB if you don't meet their price and service demands----yet if you applied the same standards to them they would rightfully go ape sh*t.

A very long, but nice post MIDancer. :)

BTW, I assume shadowcat feels any statements by a dancer that she can earn hundreds per hour is seen by him as SS to inflate their own self-worth if nothing else.

jablake: When I was a newbie, I was ripped off $360 worth of dances. And at the rate I've seen it happen to other girls, I'm just not willing to take the risk anymore. Now, if I KNOW the customer (either I've talked to him on a few seperate occassions in the club, or I've danced for him before), I generally collect afterwards. SOMETIMES I'll also let it slide until the end of our session if another dancer can vouche for him beforehand (i.e. she's danced for him before, he's a friend of hers, etc.). In all other cases, I collect upfront. I always try to ask in the nicest way possible, because I know how much some customers hate it. While waiting for our song to start I'll generally say something along the lines of, "I'm sorry to interupt our conversation, but we've had a lot of problems with customers ripping our girls off. I'd hate to think you'd do something like that to me, so to negate any and all worry, would you mind paying for the first dance before we start?" Yeah, it sucks, and I wish people could be more trustworthy all the way around, but unfortunately, a few spoil the bunch. If he pays for the first dance upfront, I generally don't ask him to pay for subsequent dances until we're done. If he's getting loads of dances, I do the following: ask for a tiny break to freshen up after 10 songs or so, collect my money, go to the back to put on some fresh body spray, eat a mint, etc., and promptly return back. This has worked for me quite well, as many guys are appreciative that you want to look/smell your best for them at all times.

Hi MIDancer,

As I've stated before it is surprising how some dancers are able to remain genuinely nice after taking super amounts of abuse. That includes being ripped off. Generally, I don't like the dancer taking a break because I'm trying to get her hot or at least have her fake it i.e. increased heart rate, dilated pupils, etc. Taking a break, ime, the woman cools down fast. But, different customers have different needs. Like the customers who need just conversation. I think that is "crazy," but then many customers as well as dancers consider my need for the GFE to be "crazy." Or, my need for very fine looks is seen as "crazy." More than a few dancers and women have lectured me that beauty is only skin deep or irrelevant. And??? It is the looks that get me excited especially in combination with skill and personality. It is like heaven, but it is fairly rare and usually the dancer is off to somewhere else anyway. :( Without the right look, there is really nothing even if the dancer is a winner in every other area. Looks are No. 1 for me.

I will say that for many customers at least around here the upfront payment can be seen as a warning sign of big trouble. The thinking is if you give a good dance, then why wouldn't I want to pay you? The customer doesn't realize that yes dancers do get scammed and also too often customers do have negative experiences paying first. If more women were attractive to me, then I probably wouldn't pay upfront because I'd figure the next dancer in line is just as good.

I also consider "abuse" to be irrationality on the part of the customer. For example, customer says I spent $1,000 on dancer and she still doesn't love me! What an evil bitch! My god, dealing with dummies like that would make me sick to my stomach. And, some dancers who do give excellent GFE are afraid to do so because of some irrational pea brain falling in love. Another "abuse" is the customer who goes off the deep ending yapping about ROBs merely because the dancer requires compensation greater than he is willing or can afford to pay. A real ROB promises and doesn't deliver or she overcounts or she lies about the dance prices or etc.

BTW, I have been in the unfortunate position that the dancer is out of my budget. Usually, I just feel very depressed. Who knows maybe if I was a different mentality or culture, then I would also go off the deep end yapping about ROBs merely because I couldn't afford or didn't like the dancer's prices.

BTW, jablake, with regard to your comment about Shadowcat, I don't think I've ever implied that getting paid hundreds of dollars PER HOUR is a consistency in my work life. Generally, I only sell one champagne room per night, and, more often than not, it's only for a half-hour. The rest of the night, I try to average four dances per hour (sometimes three, depending on the crowd). So, MOST hours, I'm making between $60 and $80, plus whatever tips I may receive; that's a far cry from HUNDREDS an hour. Now, PER NIGHT, I expect to make hundreds of dollars, and, on most nights, I am able to achieve that. Why else would I take my clothes off for a living? Despite popular opinion here, it's hardly what I'd call "easy money"; it can be VERY physically and emotionally taxing. If I was looking to make $100-$200 per night, I'd find a nice restaurant to serve at or bartend full-time (or, now that I have a four-year degree, I'd find a "real job"). And if someone thinks they are paying too much or getting too little, they are more than welcome to find another club or another dancer. It has nothing to do with inflating one's own self-worth; if I wasn't getting paid what I thought my TIME (and yes, SKILL) was worth, I'd find another line of work. I think Shadowcat sometimes forgets that not all of us are "trapped" in our line of work and only qualify for a minimum-wage position at Wal-mart.

Generally, I don't like the dancer taking a break because I'm trying to get her hot or at least have her fake it i.e. increased heart rate, dilated pupils, etc.<<

My dances generally don't get that heated. I prefer low to medium-contact clubs (limited two-way contact with light, minimal grinding), so my dances are all about seducing a man with the way I move my body, look into his eyes, breath into his ear, etc. So, generally, if I ask to take a quick break, it's not a problem. I'm not the "finishing" type, nor the type to provide "happy endings." Still, many people enjoy my dances (maybe because they're a little different than what they're used to), and some enjoy long stretches of them. However, from the first dance, it becomes pretty obvious to the customer that I possess a certain type of "skill." Some guys totally dig it; others don't. Several guys have told me that I'm a good girl to "warm-up" with before they proceed to another, more intense dancer. That's fine by me, since they still purchase a few dances. I don't like to fake being turned on, and since most customers don't turn me on, my dances are more on the playful side.

MIDancer: When I was talking about not paying dancers up front, I meant in the context of fucking them OTC for money. (The only thing I'm really interested in anyway: everything else is just a lead up to that.) I think if you did that you would have to be crazy. Heard way too many stories of dancers just walking away with the money, calling in their drug dealing+criminal boyfriend/pimps, or just deciding they don't have to perform once the money is already in the bank.

In fact, I don't even keep much cash or anything of value on me (except credit cards which I could instantly cancel). I'll stop by the ATM after our session to give them their cash.

I figure any girl who would demand money up front in such a situation is either planning to ROB me, or is so contemptuous of customers and/or herself that the service would suck anyway.

Out here our rules are the opposite of yours: Dancer cannot ask for money upfront ITC.

Now, as for paying upfront in the club. The question is pretty academic for me, so I haven't thought of that one much... I'll burn that bridge when I come to it.

Hi MIDancer,

I didn't think you implied that. To my knowledge it is an up and down business. One day the money could be rolling in and the next it could be slim pickings.

As far as the HUNDREDS of dollars an hour I just don't see anything wrong with that (I can't afford it, btw). At the upper end some escorts that I knew thru an escort who was just a friend were charging thousands for full service. Looking at them it was easy to believe. I don't think they were earnig thousands every day, but when they worked they charged! I sure as hell couldn't afford anywhere near their rates and sex or no sex didn't make a difference to them---it was about time is money. So I could have paid THOUSANDS to sit and chat about the weather or paid THOUSANDS to have hot sex. To them it just didn't make a difference. There wasn't a sliding scale based on the type of service. Other escorts have a menu with different prices--who knows maybe conversation is even on the menu. :)

And, generally for most dancers I don't think it is easy money. For some it truly is easy money. Like the old beat up prositute who helped me find the perfect women. She thought the business was heaven. A very upbeat person except that she really didn't seem to like females. Here many of her fellow sex workers were complain complain complain and she is like are you crazy? I want sex AND money AND drugs. These men are too good to be true. She wanted to service, for free if necessary, any men that I knew that might be interested in some no strings fun with her. (She offered me also, but knew I had NO interest is sex or play with her.)

Hi MIDancer,

Yes, I didn't get the impression that you were giving that type of dance. Maybe, I'm looking in the wrong places or demanding too much in the way of what I find to be smoking hot, but the dancers who will or can provide that type of heat aren't too common, ime. I've heard more than a few times, if you're concerned about how I feel than why are you paying? As if, it should of course be free if the man is willing to try and please the woman----that way of thinking always seemed "crazy" to me. The woman because of her looks has the extreme value . . . me trying to get her hot doesn't, imo, seem to have any value and might even be considered negative to many dancers.

If MIDancer or anyone else has customers who are willing to pay $1000 for an hour or two of conversation, then obviously she is worth it to those customers. Just because some of us wouldn't be willing to pay that doesn't mean that she isn't worth it to some other customers. My most recent fave had a customer who came in every week and paid her $1000 for a couple hours in VIP to sit and talk. She was obviously worth it to him.

Seems to me it's like selling anything else, your house for example. It's worth is determined by what someone else is willing to pay for it. If you were selling a service that some people were willing to pay $1000 for but others were only willing to pay $100, what's that product worth? It's worth whatever you choose to sell it for. And it's obviously worth more to some customers than to others. Like everything else, the market place determines it's value.

MIDancer - I have no complaints about how you conduct your business in the clubs, but it sure sounds like an ESCORT talking. Do you ESCORT on the side?

"Like everything else, the market place determines it's value."

Well, I'm not sure about that. If the government mandates the purchase a certain number of lap dances per year for every adult, then is it truly the market determining value or is it the force of government.

Another example, the government says you can only sell gasoline for the "fair" price of $1.50 per gallon. Is the market place determining value or is the force of government? Here in Florida it is against the law to sell gasoline too cheaply (Walmart tried hard to change this law, btw.)---Again, is the market place determining the value or is the force of government? Another example, is the market really determining the price of marijuana or concaine or even alcohol? Or, is it more determined by the force of government?

Screw the stinking "free market" and let's just adopt communism. :)

An even better example of government helping to determine value. I'm only aware of the details thru The Wall Street Journal complaints about President Clinton's tough handling of the banks. Essentially, President Clinton allegedly told the banks no more "red lining" the black areas or the banks would lose their special government perks and may even face government attacks. Good job, President Clinton! Let the banks earn their welfare for a change. :)

Anyway, once loans became available in the black areas---surprise, surprise---the land and housing values in those areas increased dramatically. Nothing like bank loan availibility to help sell a home. :) So was the market determining value or again was it more the force of government--that is just one way the government gets its nose into the housing market, btw . . .

Where I live the insurance companies were openly red lining the area as far how much they charged for insurance. Surprise, surprise, the insurance companies charge more in black areas than in white areas. If it was a free market, then I wouldn't mind how they set their rates and think they should be free to discriminate to their pretty little heart's content. For better or worse, there are all manner of government tentacles in the insurance business and as such the government needs to dictate whatever the government desires! :)

Hi Bones,

No, I do not escort. My business is restricted entirely to the club: no OTC, no extras (ITC or OTC) and no exchange of information (even with regulars). I don't do any side work.

MIDancer: Maybe ROB was the wrong thing to say. I'll change that to just say that you sound over priced for the service that you provide and have no personality. It's all business with you. It's all about the money. That is your perogative. Fortunately for me, my favorite dancers at my favorite club are not like that. Yes, they are there for the money but they also realize that I have been a regular there for 6 years and have spent a lot of money there and that I have brought a lot of business their way. (TUSCL convention) among other things. They appreciate me. They are willing to share part of their personal lives with me. It's is not always about the money. It's about having FUN and I do and they do.

BTW, in all of my years of clubbing, I have only been asked for payment up front once. It was at my favorite club by a dancer new to me. I paid. Got a good dance and never saw her again until about a year ago. She is now working at the Oasis in Atlanta. I am never going to MI.

Shadowcat: You have deduced from my relatively few posts on TUSCL that I have "no personality"? I'm fairly certain that most people who've actually gotten a dance from me or spent time with me in a strip club would disagree, but perhaps I should bow to your uncanny psychic abilities...?

And sorry, work isn't about having fun; it's about generating a livable income for oneself in a tolerable fashion. If you get to have fun in the meantime (which I do, since I enjoy my work), then great, but that shouldn't be the primary objective.

Also, if you took the time to actually read my former posts in this thread, you might notice that I possess extreme gratitude and appreciation for those who have made my job enjoyable and profitable.

The people who work primarily for the money are the sad ones...

I currently have 4 ATF types, all exceptionally attractive and pretty by any measurement, however the one that is all business is clearly the smartest and when I kiss her - she gives me the biggest turn-on of all and its partly due to her high intelligence, along with an incredibly sexy Brazilian-portuguese accent.

Stripping is a very odd profession, one often with a relatively limited shelf life, and the only rational strategy is to shoot for the big money while trying to maintain some sense of ethics and morals, and she balances that quite successfully, and I admire that she honestly tries to accomplish that balance.

"All business" does not mean she doesn't laugh or have fun conversations, both in private dances or in the club itself between dances, its just means OTC things (paid or otherwise) are presumed to be out of bounds.

as for "no exchange of information (even with regulars)" I suppose this is just general personal info? Do you mean regs are kept in the dark on nearly everything? That WOULD limit conversation by quite a bit.

Since I've had extended conversations over months (which I guess is beyond reg status sometimes) I tend to somehow find out (sometimes they tell me or maybe I (less often) hint for an answer via a question). I cannot tell them too much about myself, its just too risky.

I do seem to have generalized info on each one, for example:

1 boyfriend status - only 1 in 4 has a current boyfriend and the "relationship" is beyond finished, the guy is an abusive, drunk, who let himself go -she's keeping things together for now due to her young kids (from a prior marriage)

1. precise birth control method or situation (e.g tubal ligation) - 3 out of 4 known

2. family background - general background known with all

3. education level: known with all 4

FONDL: "If MIDancer or anyone else has customers who are willing to pay $1000 for an hour or two of conversation, then obviously she is worth it to those customers."

Depends if they know what they are getting. Or more, importantly, not going to get. I bet a fair number of the dopes who shell out big bucks like this think that there is a reasonable chance sex is in store. And, furthermore, I bet a pretty good amount of these "misunderstandings" are due to deliberate, calculate deception on the strippers part. Remember that many strippers think they are well within bounds using any form of deception/manipulation necessary to get customers to spend. In the "minds" of some anything including up to and including explicit lying ("Ok, we'll have a two hour dinner and then we'll fuck.") is consider fair play. Most strippers come from background were morality is pretty shady to begin with and then they enter a culture in which this shadiness is further condoned.

Who knows, maybe the guy who walked on his $1000 date had been promised a blowjob afterward? And she just, conveniently, forget to mention this rather salient point when she related her story. Strippers can be like that!

MIDancer: you have done a lengthy post defending yourself. I don't know what your purpose is by posting on here. You say that you prefer this over the pink site because you get the customers input. Well, input this, I go to strip clubs to have fun(sex). You seem to only offer low mileage dances at high prices. Fuck that! If guys are willing to pay you big bucks for that, I think that they are lonely losers. It's a job? I have reached full retirement age and continue to work. For the money? Yes but also because after 40+ years with the same company, I love my job and have FUN at the same time. I am going to go at least 5 more years just because I enjoy it. I wish you luck when your beauty fades.

Bobbyl, maybe they're mislead the first time, but a lot of those guys shelling out the big bucks are regulars. And I'll bet the ones who are misled are usually misleading themslelves. IME most dancers know better than to purposely mislead a customer, it can lead to real trouble for them, it's not worth the risk and most of them know that.

But the point I was trying to make is that very few things have intrinsic value, the value is determined by what someone is willing to pay, and that differs from one customer to another. For example, milk sells for $2.39 a gallon at my local grocery store. A block away a convenience store sells milk for $2.89 a gallon. And they sell a lot of milk. What's it's true value?

Another example - a couple years ago I was looking for a fairly rare used car. I finally found exactly what I was looking for, but the seller wanted about $2,000 over Bluebook retail value, and he wouldn't budge on the price. Do I pay it or spend another 6 months looking? I paid it because it was exactly what I wanted and it was nearby. Value to me is whatever I'm willing to pay - what someone else is willing to pay is irrelevant.

I've done the same thing when a stripper was exactly what I wanted, paid more than anticipated. But I set limits - I won't spend anywhere near $1000 in a strip club. But I don't begrudge the guy (or the stripper) who does. And if the guy doesn't get what he thinks he's going to get, that's his own stupidity. As in any transaction, buyer beware.

I respectfully disagree. I'd have to say that there is quite a large percentage of girls who will mislead a customer quite explicitly. "We can do this sexual act in the private room, and it will only cost you this amount," has been stated to me several times in locations where I knew that the private room was not going to accommodate such an act. I have gotten "taken" about twice in my life, total, over that sort of misleading false advertising. Mostly at the decent clubs that I do attend, the girls aren't very misleading. But I'd suggest that at least 50% of the USA's dancers as clubs are MORE misleading than honest.

David9999: I'll mention my relationship status, but only if asked. However, I would never discuss my personal sexual life or method of birth control with a customer. Family background is fine fodder for conversation, as is education level.

What I meant by no exchange of information is that I will not take or give information such as phone numbers, addresses, etc.

Shadowcat: Lonely losers? Perhaps, but those "lonely losers" make sure that my bills are paid on time, plus some.

Also, I'm not quite sure how working past "full retirement age" is even relevent to the conversation, since MOST dancers don't make a full career of dancing. Furthermore, given that I'll be starting graduate school in the Fall of 2008, I'm not too concerned about my beauty fading. Let it fade; it'll be of little use to me by 2010. I hope too, that once I begin my career, I'll wish to work past full-retirement age.

And by the way, I love my current job. I'm glad we agree on something. :)

Again, I'm truly sorry that you find it so offensive that some are willing to pay more and receive less than you do. But again, the type of strip-club environment that you prefer is not one that I'd wish to be part of. Sex for money? Fuck that! I'm glad that I have other options that allow me to be a successful and happy dancer.

Book Guy, with all due respect, anyone who is dumb enough to fall for such a line of stripper shit in a strip club deserves what he gets.

MIDancer, your line "Sex for money? Fuck that!" has got to be the funniest thing I've ever read here. I'm glad there are lots of dancers with your attatiude toward the job. My ATF was one of them. I think guys who go to strip clubs expecting ITC sex and the girls who accomodate them are ruining the industry.

Yup, agreed FONDL. I learned my lesson about twenty years ago. Didn't mean to suggest that I (or anyone else) didn't "deserve" it. It IS foolish to be tricked by that kind of promise, if the context makes clear that the promise is false. Read the context, children! This I too realize.

But that realization doesn't diminish my general point, that plenty of dancers are deliberately misleading. They're out there trying to fool tons and tons of potential customers. Maybe not the cut-above gals who congregate here at TUSCL and write politely; nor even the ones who post at the Pink Site and are so prissy about everything. But my guess is, MOST strip-club dancers across the USA are in the game of misleading customers MORE than they're in the game of giving a customer what he thinks he's going to get.

I'm not saying he doesn't deserve to be fooled or not. I'm just saying plenty of gals -- most, in my estimation -- are trying to do the fooling.

Value is whatever someone will pay, however there does seem to be signficant evidence what people are willing to pay is getting lower - because at current prices many more are just not buying

BG, I understand your general point and agree with it to some extent, especially if you're talking about dancers who work in clubs where there's high customer turnover. But when you talk about "most" dancers, IMO most dancers work in the hundreds of small neighborhood clubs were they see the same customers day after day and everybody is a regular. Any girl who tried to pull any crap in a place like that would be ostracized by both dancers and customers - she'd be slitting her own throat. It's a big reason why I prefer such places. And why I prefer to be a regular.

FONDL: With all respect to my elder. I think that you have lost contact with reality. This is a sex industry. To say that I and most of the posters on here are ruining the industry is absurd. Without us there would not be an industry. Nor would there be a TUSCL where you can tell us about your expierences of yesteryear. The rest of us are out there in the trenches. Trying to have FUN with sex, with strippers. You keep trying to hold on to your ATF of 10 years ago. It ain't the same, buddy. She is gone and no matter how much you communicate with her, she is no longer a stripper and you no longer have any strip club FUN. Have you lost all interest in sex? I know that you are a loving father and husband as are most of the posters on here but damn. Don't put us down for doing what we do. We like sex and strippers. As for MIDancer, I think that she just uses her beauty to con us out of our money. I don't think that she gives a shit about any of us. I am no fool. But I do know that it is not always about the money. BTW does your wife know the whole truth about you and your former ATF? Respectively, shadowcat.

Actually, FONDL, I think the following is the funniest thing I've read thus far on this board:

"As for MIDancer, I think that she just uses her beauty to con us out of our money." Shadowcat

Again, Shadowcat, a con would imply that I am offering something that I don't deliver. That's not what I do; I don't promise extras because I don't give them, I don't promise OTC because I don't do it, and I don't promise to grind someone's cock into dust because that's not how I conduct myself in the VIP area. Sex is simply not on the menu, and I've been lucky enough to find the clubs where that is still the norm among the girls.

Well, I definitely think Shadowcat is more the norm as far as wanting sex and or mileage. :)

If I was forced to spend $1,000 getting a full 2 hours, or less if I so desire, for a hot young skilled dancer who I didn't know and I had to choose 1) Full Service (fucking) with or without condom or 2) conversation.

It is an EASY "choice" for me. Conversation wins by a mile. Now if I get to know her over a period of weeks then the Full Service would win by a mile. :)

Add choice 3) lots of mileage, and that choice would win by a mile. :)

Different customer have different needs, but yes I think shadowcat is definitely more normal in his desires. But, this sex without condoms is CRAZY!

"Value is whatever someone will pay, however there does seem to be signficant evidence what people are willing to pay is getting lower - because at current prices many more are just not buying"

The issue is also for some or many people the ability to pay. The value in the person's mind may be sky high. But, if you only have a $100 then the "value" is limited by budget. A woman's child is dying and you have medicine that will save the child and you tell her I want $100 to save your child. Her total assets excluding her body are $10. So she offers you her body plus $10. You laugh and say lady your body might be worth 50 cents at most. Put I'm a super sweet guy. All your assets and your body will equal $15. Now, just get me the other $85 and your baby gets to live. :) She is crying her little eyes out begging for the life saving medicine. What is the true value of the medicine? $15? What if there are NO other potential buyers and you aren't willing to accept less than $100 because you know that is a fair price and besides you're Mr. Generosity giving her a $5 credit for her body when it is only worth 50 cents max.

In some culture(s) giant rocks as big as a small hut allegedly have lots of "value" at least in the minds of most of the members of that big rock loving society. I'd be careful of assigning/judging "value" by culture or ability to pay, imo.

What value?

If the U.S. was a "free" country a kilo of cocaine probably would sell for a $100 max. Add law and government violence, and presto that same kilo can sell for around $8,000 or more.

Did the law and government violence actually add value? Sort of a strange way of looking at value. :)

Another example, the government makes mortgage debt freely available. A home selling for $50,000 shoots up in "value" to $300,000. The government increased the "value" of the home six fold by making more debt?

I think these are interesting ideas to ponder. :)

I don't know about this "if they are stupid enough to fall for it then you deserve whatever happens to you" thing.

Lots of strippers will fuck ITC or OTC for money. In fact, I would say the majority will. So it's a reasonable thing to ask, and or to believe it really will happen.

Furthermore, if I am "clever" enough to con little old ladies out of money are we just gonna say "well if they are stupid enough..."

Heck, I know I could con strippers. Lead them to put aside an evening's work to see me instead and then ditch them at the last second. Is that ok, b/c if they are stupid enough to believe I would pay them for sex, they deserve it?

Honestly, I don't understand the kick some girls get out of conning people. I've never actually conned them, but I have got them to the point where I could have as an experiment, and just refrained from pulling the trigger, b/c I am not as low as they are.

In my experience the vast majority of girls will try and cam you IF THEY THINK THEY CAN. You need to put out the vibe that it will not work, b/c the only thing that prevents most from trying it is a fear that it would not work!

Sexual promises not kept. Hmmm . . . that is one fraud that hasn't been much an issue for me. Probably because I'm not into the FS or even BJ with complete strangers. But, still there has been occasional fraud in that respect. A dancer will tell me that pretty much anything goes in the VIP if I pay X. Once in the VIP the fraud could either be NO you're not getting any contact or it could be a demand for more money. Either way I don't have a problem complaining to management in a non-explicit manner. The vast majority of dancers that I know consider sluttiness to be a badge of honor and consider doing sex of all types NO BIGGIE as long as the customer pays as agreed. That is the main issue. You want all this X-rated fun and service? And, you agree to this level of compensation? Excellent, but after I do my job then just pay what you promised!

Over counting is the No. 1 fraud by far. But, it is a $5 club and the dancers are being beaten with club fees that keep rising! Another "fraud" is when the dancer claims she wants to meet you OTC for some relaxed fun or lunch and doesn't have any intention of doing so. Some people may not even consider that a true fraud so I put it in quotes. It isn't a big deal to me, but it would be nicer if she just said NO or she'd might consider it in the future.

Shadowcat, I'm sorry that I was so blunt, I had just responded to the post about college tuition, which is an extremely sore subject for me, so smoke was still coming out of my ears. Let me see if I can clarify what I meant without offending you further, which is not my intent.

Seems to me that many of us have agreed on a number of points lately: (1) stripper quality is declining, (2) prices are going up, (3) customers are demanding more contact including extras, (4) increasingly girls and clubs are complying with that demand, and (5) the industry is in decline with fewer customers spending less money. I happen to think those 5 things are closely related and you probably do too. But we probably disagree on which are causes and which are effects.

I think the demand for more contact including extras is chasing girls out of the business and allowing clubs to raise prices. My ATF, who was one of the top dancers in her club, quit the business for exactly that reason, customers demanding more contact and the club allowing it. And she wasn't an isolated case, in fact a lot of the best dancers in her club quit when the manager started allowing more contact. And shortly thereafter they raised prices - the higher contact enabled them to do so. The last few years that I was clubbing regularly I heard more dancers complaining about incresed contact than anything else.

One of the main reasons I stopped going to strip clubs is because I was having more and more trouble finding girls who appealed to me. I think the demand for more contact, including extras, is causing dancer quality to decline, and I also think it has allowed clubs to raise prices, which in turn is accelerating the decline in the business. In the short term maybe extras are helping some clubs, but in the long term I think it's going to kill the industry.

Guys have always gone to clubs looking for sex, I have no problem with that. But having sex inside the club is a relatively recent phenomenon and that's what I object to. When you meet a stripper at a motel, that's a private transaction between the two of you. But when it takes place in the club it's no longer a private act, it effects everyone in the club. Everyone in the place is subject to arrest. And the club atmosphere changes drastically. Personally I would find it highly offensive if I were in a VIP room and saw someone getting a blow job or more. ITC sex is ruining strip clubs for guys like me who aren't interested in that and never were, and I think it will eventually ruin it for everyone when the inevitable backlash occurs. Shadowcat, I'll be very surprised if your favorite club is still in business a couple years from now.

As far as discussion on this board goes, seems to me the intent of this board is to talk about strippers and strip clubs, not prostitutes and brothels. And until recently that's what it's been. Personally I'd like to see it go back to that.

And yes my wife does know all about my ATF, in fact they've become close friends.

I think the greater availability of sex was an effect of an already declining industry, not the cause of it. But then there became a positive (or negative depending on your POV) feedback loop.

I will agree with FONDL that things quickly spiral out of control. Have seen it first hand. Not sure what happens after that. Predictions?

Hi Fondl,

When more clubs were allowed there were more options. Some clubs were more G rated. You had high price clubs near low price clubs. There were fun clubs and more depressed clubs. Clubs with super hot dancers and clubs with only dogs. Busy clubs and slow clubs. The clubs were generally small or medium. No giants that I can remember. You had biker clubs. You had black clubs.

Supposedly the "market" decided people didn't want these clubs. Of course, that wasn't the truth even a little bit. People or at least people with power became less tolerant and also corruption arose with a fury. So clubs get closed and most people just shrug their shoulders because that club didn't interest them anyway. And, besides it is a "free" market. At one time it was a "free" market, and if you wanted to open a small club then do it. It's a "free" country. LOL!

The point of all this rambling is that I don't think demanding more sex or more contact kills clubs as long as people are free to open new clubs and set their own rules. Angels is too down and dirty? Then you should be free to open a "bikini" club across the street without government thugs bothering you. I think there is a real demand for a "bikini" club because I think there are a good number of customers that aren't focused solely on mileage. They're more interested in conversation and looking at hot girls in skimpy outfits. These customer really aren't into real sexual contact with some unknown dancers.

Will I ever get to test my theory? No. It isn't reasonable to even try in the current environment where not don't you enjoy basic legal protections, but there is a strong agenda to kill stripclubs and little bars. There is only so much BS a small fry can stand before he has to bow his head to the government and say what you think is of course right Mr. Government.

The Trap has turned into a cesspool of high prices and low quality dancers. It has already closed its day shift. And, it should close its night shift because it really for the most doesn't generate nearly the revenue it did. You could blame extras. I blame the government. Before the governments attacks against the little clubs you had high mileage and low mileage clubs exisiting in harmony. Real problems are cause when little clubs are forced shut. Some of the "low lifes" migrated to The Trap. It shouldn't have surprised anyone. The government closed their club so some of those customer moved over to The Trap. Now dealing with these "lowlifes" is an interesting issue. Where you have freedom it really isn't a problem. You just tell the "lowlifes" you don't want their business. Unfortunately, imo, most people seem to want the government making these decisions . . . when clubs die the true enemy is usually never even understood . . . you still have people yapping about the "free" market as if it wasn't slain years earlier.

FONDL, I mostly agree with the way you've connected the dots, except to say that TUSCL gives a wildy distorted picture of the number of clubs where sex is available and the amount of sex customers are having with strippers ITC and OTC. Nevertheless, I believe that mileage and extras are up in most places, with the kind of negative effects you lay out. Personally, I like high mileage dances, and, although I don't care for extras, clubs where they aren't even a possibiity are kind of dull, missing an element of sleazy temptation and intrigue. On the other hand, clubs where extras and ITC sex are a sure thing are usually pretty boring for me.

"As for MIDancer, I think that she just uses her beauty to con us out of our money." Shadowcat <<

I'm not sure "con" is the correct word, but I think I can see more clearly where Shadowcat is coming from. Essentially, a woman's beauty can be so overwhelming to a man that when combined with sweet conversation that man is defenseless and helpless. In this fetal like state he is "conned" into paying excorbitant prices that have no rational basis. Take away the woman's weaponry (her beauty) and then will the man not only pay for dinner, but pay her attorney like rates?

Let's see MIDancer try and exploit males if the law requires her to wear a Burka! That'll even the playing field. :)

IME, a women with the right looks can have me almost at her mercy. It takes super human strength on my part to resist the urge to comply with any and all of her demands. Using this "unfair" advantage to gain "excessive" compensation could be viewed by some people as a "con."

Sorry, MIDancer. It seems like you need to be incarcerated to help reduce the surplus of prison space here in the U.S. and to protect defenseless and helpless males that you would "victimize." Do NOT pass Go, Go Directly to Jail, and Pay Your Debt to Society. ;)

LOL! :)

FONDL: agreed on the earlier point. I hadn't adequately accounted for locals-only hang-outs and the percentages of total strippers who work in those types places. I guess I'd modify my point (if you've forgotten it by now ... urgh) to say, the strippers in big and medium cities are misleading more often than not. Roughly 50/50, I'd guess. And by "misleading" I only mean, saying and ACTING LIKE they'll do more than they actually WILL do, generally for a profit.

Chandler, I agree that TUSCL gives a widely exaggerated view of the number of clubs where extras are widely available. And let me add that I have no moral objection to extras, my objection is that it's illegal and I don't want to hang out anywhere were illegal activity is commonly taking place. I like high mileage as long as it doesn't cross the line where it becomes illegal, and I think that's hapening more and more. And ultimately it will lead to a backlash against all clubs if it continues. I think it's bad for the industry.

Hi jablake,

I wouldn't call what I do a con, I'd call it doing my job and doing it well. My job is to look nice, dress scantily, provide sweet/flirty conversation and build a FANTASY for my guest, not GIVE him/her that fantasy in exchange for money. If beauty and sweet conversation is too overwhelming to the extent that a GROWN MAN can't keep his wits about him, then perhaps that individual shouldn't be going to strip clubs.

Furthermore, I should clarify that that my dances are "low-mileage" by THIS board's standards. At my current club, I'd say that I fall somewhere in the middle compared to my coworkers (but then again, I look for clubs that aren't particularly high-mileage or laden with extras). I don't mind light touching, so long as it doesn't include my breasts or crotch, and I don't mind doing some light-grinding, including rubbing my breasts gently against the customer's crotch. Things I won't do include massaging a customer's penis (outside or inside the pants), "dry-humping" during a dancing, allowing forceful grabbing or groping of my body, etc. I like giving slow, sensual, seductive dances. That's my style, not my con.

And, as I've said before, I don't think that the prices are exorbitant, because unlike the Wal-Mart employees (who seem to be brought up again and again), I'm taking my clothes off and giving private topless dances to stangers. If I wasn't paid a great deal of money to do what I do, I simply wouldn't be doing it. Also, I'm not dancing in MI currently, and the clientele that my club attracts includes mostly wealthy bussiness men on vacation. I've seen many of them spend literally THOUSANDS in a single visit. I doubt a $400 champagne room seems unreasonable to them, all they often spend $200-$300 for the champagne alone.

Typo correction: I doubt a $400 champagne room seems unreasonable to them, as they often spend $200-$300 for the champagne alone.

Hi MIDancer,

Yes, I wouldn't think that you'd consider it a "con" and neither would I, btw. Just trying to see it from someone elses perspective. Woman essentially is too hot and seductive thus poor defenseless grown man is being unfairly drained of money.

The poor defenseless grown man really can't stay away from strip clubs anymore than a coke head can stop using coke. Thus, laws are needed to protect him. Perhaps the Burka will be the solution. Perhaps shutting down strip clubs will be the solution. Some people see a "crime" and thus government must take action especially by passing more laws. I remember watching a talk show of angry wives of strip club addicts. The wives were smoking mad that their defenseless husbands were being drained of vital family funds by heartless blood sucking strippers. Just looking at these wives you could see why hubby needed a break and couldn't resist strip clubs. :) The wives solution of course was more laws and law enforcement because stripping in their opinion was really no different than prostitution. Both "crimes" take advantage of defenseless men and worse attack the family financially and emotionally.

The perception of "crime" doesn't have to rational or consistently applied: The same people who go off the deep end if a man is charging $5 for a bag of ice after a hurricane and see it as heinous crime of price gouging may also see nothing wrong with an attorney charging $400 with his buddy judge not only agreeing $400 is "reasonable" but also ordering that charging for 100 hours when it is a 10 hour job is also "reasonable." And, it is "reasonable" to charge multiple times for the same block of 100 hours. Actually, I think $400 an hour could be cheap as long as no fraud or force is involve, but that ain't the case. Anyway, the point is charging $5 for a bag ice to a person in distress is a heinous price gouging crime while charge $400 per hour and adding phony hours to a person in distress is "reasonable" and good business that reflects "fair market values."

Well, I have bought my air line ticket and packed my bag. I am off to MI to visit MIDancer. NOT! Enough said.

Tough talk Shadowcat, but if you met her in person could you stand up to her weaponry i.e. beauty? ;) Seriously, do you begrudge men, assuming they're fully informed, paying even HUGE amounts for her conversation?

If so, then why? It will become the standard. The men are incompetent. You believe in price controls. It is more than your hourly compensation. Just trying to understand what the problem is, in your opinion. If a woman wanted to charge $5,000 per hour for conversation and men were willing to pay, then what is the problem?

Shadowcat, if you aren't going to use that airline ticket, can I have it? I think I'd like MIDancer just fine (as long as we didn't talk politics - LOL.)

Not a problem is they are informed consumers. I.e. know what they could alternatively spend their money on (e.g. fucking models) and more importantly, what they won't get from the low mileage girls despite their wishful thinking.

Hi Bobbyl,

I think you hit the nail on the head for some customers. Wishful thinking. He may be thinking I'm a nice guy and generous and successful and can converse intelligently and we have shared interests and I would treat her so well and etc. How could she not realize that I'm a good catch? It wouldn't be logical for her not to fall in love or at least like me as a very close friend; we will have a wonderful life together. Big deal if I need to invest ten or twenty thousand dollars for a life time of happiness. :)

Now as far as not knowing about alternatives it seems like the customer, imo, is responsible for doing his due diligence. I can't imagine an informed local choosing Tootsies over Angels UNLESS 1) money has little value to them, 2) they're not interesting in buying dances, 3) they don't care for black clubs and or dancers, 4) it is a business deal situation . . . well that about covers it. It interesting that Angels went from DEAD to PACKED and yet it is a small dirty dive. :) Who knows perhaps a lot of other customers couldn't afford $25 for 3 minutes. And, The Trap is now an expensive dive so no refuge there.

Angels = 10 Tootsies = 6 Trap = 1 But, those numbers are so subjective. :)

Hi FONDL,

LOL! But, remember there is the small issue of $500 per hour compensation and perhaps a 2 hour min. :) Of course, that might be pocket change to you especially for the right dancer.

INFORMED is a very interesting issue.

I took a wealthy buddy to Angels and he hated the place. He thought it was totally disgusting and if the dancers where giving FREE dances it would be expensive. He would have given a rating of 1. Sometime later we are driving past Angels and I tell him to pull over. He is like not to that hell hole I'm not. He further states NO attractive dancer will take off her clothes for $5. You get what you pay for. I repeat pull over I want to see if my buddies are workings. He gets upset and says look they aren't your buddies; they're whores; ugly ones at that!

He thought he was an INFORMED customer based on a single visit. He didn't believe me even a little when I told him he just got unlucky and there often were highly attractive dancers working. He gets to repeating not for $5 and I've already seen that garbage.

Anyway, he pulls over and my buddies are working! :) He is in one foul nasty mood because I "forced" him to a club that he knew for a fact 100% that there was nothing good about it. He'd seen it with his own 2 eyes!

His new rating? Angels = 10. Yes, that dramatic a reversal. :) He still can't understand how such beautiful women are willing to do so much for a lousy $5 and he also doesn't understand why so many of the customers over there seem to be in love with 300 pounders. He said it doesn't make any sense at all. Bottom line after becoming actually informed he is a huge fan of Angels.

Jablake, I've never spent more than about $250 in a strip club in my life, and usually my visits cost me less than half that.

Well, that sounds like about 15 minutes worth of dances at Tootsies. :) And, probably around 2 hrs at Angels if you don't get an overcounter. :)

D9999- congrats on "century thread". You make Masters & Johnson look like slackers. FONDL- You need to qualify all posts in past tense- Summer 05 was quite a while ago, as was 1st meeting of ex Outback ATF. MIDancer- Care to share SW handle with us?

Minnow, my last post is in past tense - "I have never" rather than "I never" and "visits cost" which can be either present or past tense. I try to be pretty careful about that. But thanks for reading my posts - you're probably one of the few here who still does (LOL).

Hi Minnow,

I'd prefer to keep my SW handle to myself; should I feel the need to "rant" about my job at some point, I'd like to do so without worrying about it ending up on TUSCL. I truly hope you understand; sometimes us girls just need a place to vent and seek support. :)

Sorry to be late to the party, but I wanted to post something about the whole tuition thing. I'm a Yale alumni. I went on the government's dime thank God, but something has always bothered me about colleges like Yale and Harvard. Yale's alumni association should give lessons to the CIA and FBI, because when I graduated they only had my last address in New Haven and my parents address. My parents never gave them my address, and I moved back to DC in a completely new area. They were sending me fundraising pitches by August, and I haven't been able to shake them for 15+ years.

Now the part that pisses me off. Yale university has an endowment of 22.5 million dollars. My understanding of charitable trusts and endowments, which could be wrong, was that they were required to spend 10% to remain tax free. Typically such huge endowments have no problem getting long term interest over that amount. So, here is the thing. Yale reports their operating costs as 1.96 billion, that comes to 8.7% of their endowment. So why do people have to pay $45,000 per year to go there? OK, scholarships... Let's assume only 10% of the 5,200 undergraduates (this ignores grad students) pay tuition and everyone else goes free. Those 520 students add another 23 million rather than depleting the resources. Graduate students? there are about 2,500, and from personal experience I can attest most don't pay tuition, but assuming that it becomes a drain of 112 million, if you buy that the tuition they don't pay is an actual loss. That isn't however the case. Most low level classes are taught by graduate students (free labor) and in the sciences most graduate students are supported by professors grants. When I was there Yale charged 70% to administer a grant, so if a professor got $200,000 from some organization (usually the government) Yale took $140,000 off the top, leaving the professor with enough to support one grad student and a few trips or new instruments. In addition, even though most grad students took no more than 2 years of classes Yale required 4 years of full tuition payments from all grad students. So now not only does a professor have to support a student, he has to cover two years of tuition for a student not even taking classes. No DOD contractor charging $500 for a craftsman hammer ever came up with a scam as good as universities.

Yeah, it's a scam. You're just catching on. I'm still late to the party, too. I haven't yet REALLY caught on, I still give places like that my money. Oh well some day I'll learn ...

But somewhere in all of that is the function of the market. People WILL pay for it, so the schools CAN charge that much for it. It's not what they "deserve" or "need", it's what they "can get."

Somewhere in some morality textbook somewhere, 'round about the middle of the Clinton impeachment hearings, I recall reading that the single most morally corrupt excuse any human could use for an inappropriate act, was that (as with Clinton) he did it "merely because he can." Well, there ya go, free market ...