The woman gets the money she needs. The man get the sex he needs. Its a win win and its part of capitalism. I'm lucky enough to be in a good financial position. But if I couldn't make the rent and it was between shaking snakes and eviction I'd do what I had to do in order to keep my apartment. It is too bad that there is financial desperation in a society that has so much money overall. But again its called capitalism and it works. Ever go to Europe and notice that in a non-tipping culture wait service isn't as good?
That’s got to be rock bottom in the PL scale. The only reason a woman fucked you was because she was in a desperate financial situation. The sex would not be worth it.
I see you are returning to form Willy with this stream of bizzare discussion topics. Im far from the white knight type, but I do treat dancers with respect because at the end of the day they are women. However, I don't go out of my way and overtip girls because I feel bad for them. The girls who are smart save up and use the money to get a regular job. The ones who don't love the freedom, quick money, and party atmosphere that dancing provides. Same reason why I never feel bad for watching free porn.
And I have never come across a "desperate" dancer. If you think she's "desperate" she's playing you. Most of the girls who dance, at least in NJ/NYC are very well off and if you knew how much they made in a night and how they spent thier money you might stop clubbing all together.
The faulty logic here is that exploiting desperation and weakness into a paid sport fuck to (possibly) prevent a financial crisis justifies the fact that you're being a shitty human.
It's a twisted permutation of being a white knight. "Hey, if I don't leverage her fear into a paid fuck at her weakest, most vulnerable moment, then God knows what might happen to her? Really, I'm doing her a tender kindness."
Which is delusional bull. Being a shitty human is shitty.
I've been in dire financial straights, and it felt like the worst thing in the world. I'm glad, though, that I didn't resort to crime to cover my debt (because that opportunity did present itself). Because, even if I'd gotten away with it, I suspect that I'd really existentially regret it today. Because, though it's no fun to run out of money, it's also not the crushing disaster I perceived at the time. It was horrible, but I survived without causing external damage.
Intentionally preying on people at their weakest moments (strippers or otherwise) is not a morally ambiguous act.
One thing is to be down if a woman that needs $$$ is down; another thing is to think one can have any woman down on her luck bc one has a few bucks to throw around - I give you the benefit of the doubt that you mean the former vs the latter.
@CMI, I hope that little emotional outburst was very satisfying, but you didn't answer my question. Would it be better if she was evicted from her home?
RickDugan said "I hope that little emotional outburst was very satisfying,"
Not emotional. It was an argument to your position that her possible financial misfortune justifies manipulating vulnerability into paid sex.
Also, you seem to consistently after guys about emotionalism or their manhood when they present any sort of debate or position that is counter to your world view. It's petulant, and not a counter argument.
"but you didn't answer my question."
I did. You just didn't like or understand the answer.
"Would it be better if she was evicted from her home?"
Possibly. Yes. I can't predict or control how hardship will hurt or even help someone, ultimately. But I can treat people like humans, and not exploit their vulnerability.
Willy said "I'm literally saying that I would give hjs before facing homelessness and that I have much more respect for whores than lazy people."
Sure... I can only imagine you toiling away in the hand-job mines of Kentucky to make ends meet. Leaving the work site at the end of the day with semen crusting over your helmet light.
You should see if Juice will write a country western song about such a plight.
RickDugan said "I bet her kids would strongly disagree. So does she if she says yes to an offer in order to keep a roof over their heads."
So, I guess the secret to making this not shitty (at least in your head) is to modify the hypothetical woman's hardship until riding your dick for cash becomes an act of chivalry.
You probably shouldn't hold your breath for that "slow clap" moment...
CMI, unlike you, I don't need to see it as anything more than what it is. I get laid and she gets paid. Simple.
You, on the other hand, need to see it as some great injustice involving a desperate victim. In doing so, you diminish her. Making a choice like that makes her a fuck ton more respectable than a weak and lazy POS victim mentality type. She is doing what she needs to in order to provide for her kids. The person who deserves contempt is not the "whore', but rather the person who would let circumstances steam roll her babies when she could have done something to prevent it.
@NJB I agree with you that most strippers are doing fine. Although I think some of the past their prime dancers at clanceys may be struggling/ But my point really is that many strippers who are doing well would be economically desperate if they didn't dance. Further, many of them likely were before they started dancing.
Also, I think a lot of women at AMPS are struggling. I'm not talking about slaves; just women from China who barely speak English.
Icey businesses exploit people all the time and violate laws while intimidating their workers. Exploitation IS part of capitalism. It IS the very essence of capitalism.
I choose to simply play FS only when the dancer initiates the move. Never do I go in search of the desperate. However, if the desperate finds me and seeks my assistance via their chosen trade, then I will certainly give in and partake with exchange of goods. I do not feel remorse in doing so.
I really don’t think I’d want to do something if it really bothered the girl although I get that they would get what they need for it. I know that most pros might not really like what they’re doing but hopefully they’re at least ok with it. I don’t think I could enjoy making someone miserable.
Oh yeah, the old moral dilemma and guilt question. This discussion is particularly prevalent in regards to Tijuana due to the plight. It crosses my mind and I have on occasion felt bad, believing I'm taking advantage of them. I justify it with the rationalization that they'd be doing it whether I was engaging or not. It's also heightened my awareness to treat these ladies with respect and not be complete jag-o-lantern. Plus, I'd like to think they'd want to sex with me regardless if I was paying or not because I'm in great shape, well-groomed, with impeccable hygiene, and attentive to their needs. Hell, I'd want to have sex with myself. And sometimes I do.
Millions of people--men and women--are in financial desperation. If I could wave a magic wand and fix this problem, I would. But poverty persists despite the efforts of governments, charities and religious organizations.
A young single mother with little education has few options. She can live on welfare and charity, which is not much of a life and carries a social stigma. She can work for minimum wage or a couple dollars an hour more ($15K to $20K a year), which may provide the bare necessities but little more. Or she can become a stripper/sex worker, which will allow her to earn $60K to $100K a year (tax free).
The hypocrites and do-gooders attack the sex workers, although today they do it by claiming sex workers are all victims of trafficking and exploitation. They attack the women's means of earning a living, but of course they don't care that the women will be forced into poverty without sex work. The hypocrites and do-gooders only pretend to care about the women. You don't see them offering unemployed strippers $100K jobs at their companies.
The thing that should be illegal is forced sex trafficking. Otherwise, women should be free to make their own decisions and engage in sex work or not as they decide for themselves.
I would say that I disagree with the title of this discussion, and that taking advantage of a woman's financial desperation for your own gain is, in fact, morally "wrong."
However, you neglect to include that both parties get exploited here. The prostitute is being exploited for sex because she is desperate for money, while the John is being exploited for money because he is desperate for sex.
To quote Samantha from Sex and the City, "Money is power. Sex is power. Therefore, getting money for sex is simply an exchange of power."
@twentyfive, desperation on the part of dancers i know is saving up for a summer trip to show off on instagram. Sure there are the aging women, but they just have to expand thier menu. I used to feel bad for turning down the handsy 50s woman, but there is always some drunk newbie or desperate guy that takes them to the VIP
@Willy again with the sketchy comments. Those asian women are not struggling. They are frugal and do very well for themselves. If anything they are overeager to send more money back to thier relatives who are like extravagantly compared to the other people in the country.
Again treat dancers with respect, but I dont think any of themgo home crying because they had to give extras at a discount. They should be happy LE is too busy to put them out of business or worse in jail
"... However, you neglect to include that both parties get exploited here. The prostitute is being exploited for sex because she is desperate for money, while the John is being exploited for money because he is desperate for sex ... To quote Samantha from Sex and the City, "Money is power. Sex is power. Therefore, getting money for sex is simply an exchange of power." ..."
Probably as straight-forward (and accurate) as it gets
"... This discussion is particularly prevalent in regards to Tijuana due to the plight ..."
I'm no expert in Mexican economics; but the $$$ these TJ girls make goes way-longer in MX than it would in the US - the $$$ a good TJ/HK girl makes probably would put her in the top 5% of Mexican wage-earners and those girls can probably buy more than one home cash after working some time in a good club like HK (maybe not in the most exclusive neighborhoods but likely doable in the middle-class neighborhoods)
@Papi, yes, the hot-looking ones make a bundle, I’m sure. But there are many average to below averages ones at the various clubs as well as the street girls that I’m guessing don’t fare great. Plus, they have limited shelf life. I often wonder what they do when their looks deteriorate.
RickDugan said "CMI, unlike you, I don't need to see it as anything more than what it is. I get laid and she gets paid. Simple."
I do as well. But, be it dancers or civilians, I temper that with the fact that they're people. I try to not be shitty to people.
"You, on the other hand, need to see it as some great injustice involving a desperate victim."
Not sure about all that, but when it's a guy intentionally seeking out women in a vulnerable, desperate condition for the purpose of leveraging a paid fuck, I think that's predatory and pretty horrible.
I'm okay with not being predatory or horrible.
"In doing so, you diminish her."
lol
"Making a choice like that makes her a fuck ton more respectable than a weak and lazy POS victim mentality type."
The specious logic here is that a woman in dire financial straits only has the choice between riding dick for cash or being a 'lazy POS victim-mentality type'. People in financial crisis have options other than crime, paid sex, etc. And many figure it out and survive their hardship.
And I bet most of them are thankful that no one took advantage of them when they were at their weakest, lowest point. Unless, of course, you happened to wander into their life at the time...
"She is doing what she needs to in order to provide for her kids."
I suspect that's part of your prepared script for some of your more reluctant lays. People have choices other than crime and paid sex when they've run out of money. Coercing them into believing that they have no other choice is predatory.
"The person who deserves contempt is not the "whore', but rather the person who would let circumstances steam roll her babies when she could have done something to prevent it."
I see that the hypothetical woman you're saving from calamity no longer has 'kids', but 'babies' now. Is one of those babies named "Tiny Tim"? Does the other have leukemia? Do you have a wee cape that you tie around your dick right before you swoop in to "save" them? More important, are you able to write off your OTC payments as charitable donations?
There's no honor in taking advantage of vulnerable, fearful people. And there's no contempt in leaving them to possibly take a better path that won't fill them with regret.
You know, a big part of my stance here is that I don't want to be shitty to people as a default. But, another part is that I don't enjoy the idea of looking at a woman I'm having sex with and seeing any sort of sadness, fear, regret, or existential crisis.
But that is apparently not the case for you. I seem to remember that you had at least one stripper you "saved" who wept with guilt after the deed was done. And when you posted the story here, you stated that all you felt was annoyance that she was a "buzz kill".
I never want to be in that situation. And I hope I'm never the sort of person who has such a callous reaction.
If that makes me a "do gooder", then sign me up for the newsletter.
CMI, you laughed at the notion that you were diminishing her and then doubled down on it by implying that the ones who make that choice just don't know what their other options are.
Are you one of those types who believes that he knows what's good for her more than she does herself? Do you really imagine that she isn't aware of the shelter, dining programs, food banks and all the other resources available to her locally? Is it really that hard for you to comprehend that she is making that choice with a full view of all of her other options?
Have you thought of running for office? I ask because there is a political party that is dominant in your area that specializes in erroneously believing that they know what is good for us more than we do ourselves. 😉
Shame on you for diminishing her yet further by believing that you know more than she does about what the right choice for her is.
CMI, talk about elitist arrogance - that smug belief that you are somehow so much smarter than those in the poorer classes that you know what is good for them even if they don't agree.
A question, and true story: I have a brand new CF. I asked her when her slow shifts are, she told me, and I met her on a slow shift. Part of the reason I do this is because I know during the slow shift, she makes less money so more likely to be happy hanging out for 3 hours with me. Am I exploiting her?
Okay, another question: During that 3 hours, I bought two VIPS ($240 total + tip), my buddy bought 1 (or 2, can't remember) VIPs from her (so either $120 or $240 + tip). During that same time period -- again, slowest part of the day on her slowest shift -- NO other stripper got any VIPs, just lap dances. So the girl made $400+ during a period of time when many of the girls just made their minimum wage from the club plus a couple of lap dances. Hell, she made $500+ if my buddy did 2 VIPs rather than just one. Am I exploiting her?
In the end, I just go by intentions. My intention is not to fuck her over. In fact, part of my motivation is I genuinely like her, and do enjoy helping her fill out her dead times, when there's no real opportunity cost for hanging out with me for 3 hours for a mere 2 VIPs. And sometimes she gets a bonus that I'm always willing to share her with my buddies. I'm looking for a good deal for myself, but also want her happy. I'd bet anything that she looked at this trip, even with my usual mere 2 VIPs spent, as win-win. She made more in the 3 hours I was there, than many of those girls will make for that entire dayshift. Still, the girl is a legit 8.5, and would make far more at an upscale club (she sometimes works at spearmint rhino in vegas, so she's hot enough for it) at night shift... she's just chosen, for her own reasons, to work SF dayshift.
RickDugan said "CMI, you laughed at the notion that you were diminishing her and then doubled down on it by implying that the ones who make that choice just don't know what their other options are."
I laughed at the implication that manipulating someone who is vulnerable into paid sex is a form of chivalry, while not doing so diminishes them.
But you are correct. I shouldn't have laughed. Because that position is abhorrent on your part.
"Are you one of those types who believes that he knows what's good for her more than she does herself? Do you really imagine that she isn't aware of the shelter, dining programs, food banks and all the other resources available to her locally?"
I don't know what she knows. And I don't know if exploiting her vulnerability will hurt her far more than help her. But I know that exploiting fear and vulnerability is a horrible act. So... I don't do that.
"Is it really that hard for you to comprehend that she is making that choice with a full view of all of her other options?"
I can't assume her state of mind or breadth of knowledge any more than you can. But, I know that desperate people are far more prone to bad, regrettable decisions than good decisions. And I don't seek to leverage that into a paid fuck.
"Have you thought of running for office? I ask because there is a political party that is dominant in your area that specializes in erroneously believing that they know what is good for us more than we do ourselves."
Not taking advantage of vulnerable people is a human stance, not a political position. I'm sorry you don't see it that way.
"Shame on you for diminishing her yet further by believing that you know more than she does about what the right choice for her is."
I'll happily accept all the shame in world for not exploiting weakness and vulnerability in others just so I can squirt a bit of jism.
^ Unlike you CMI, I assume that she is making an informed decision. But your smug arrogance makes you incapable of crediting a girl like her with any level of awareness similar to your own. The existence of these services within most local poor communities is not exactly a state secret, but you probably wouldn't know that either.
So a girl who says "yes" may take that money and pay her power bill, put groceries in the fridge and even take the kids out for a Dairy Queen treat, all while staying where they live. In your view of the world, it would have been better for her if she had never been offered that option and instead been forced to drag her kids to a shelter.
She is a hero to her children and worthy of respect for making a tough choice, yet you would rather see her forced into powerless victimhood. Not to protect her a you claim, but really because it better fits within your own self-righteous view of morality. Shame on you indeed.
Subraman... The premise is a civilian (per Willy's original thread) or a low-mileage dancer who is in a cash crisis, and the manipulation of that crisis and desperation to get her to do things that she she does not want to do (and wouldn't do) minus her fear.
If you're doing that, I think you're a dick. If you're not into doing that, we're fine.
@Subraman, I guess CMI believes that your girl would be better off in a shelter too than getting too frisky with you. Don't sweat. Guys like CMI have conditioned themselves to believe that they are smarter and better positioned than the girls who make decisions for themselves and there's nothing you can do or say to shake him of that smug superiority complex.
RickDugan said "Unlike you CMI, I assume that she is making an informed decision."
You don't know her state of mind or breadth of knowledge any more or less than I do. But I take the position that seeking out vulnerable people to get my rocks off is shitty.
Your "my dick is hero and my wallet is the plucky sidekick" argument isn't swaying me, even if it is how you explain it away.
"But your smug arrogance makes you incapable of crediting a girl like her with any level of awareness similar to your own. The existence of these services within most local poor communities is not exactly a state secret, but you probably wouldn't know that either."
I don't pressure people into making decisions that might later make them hate themselves or start a destructive spiral that ends far worse than an unpaid light bill.
Again, I don't know how my taking advantage of another person's vulnerability will affect them. But I know it's horrible, and I choose to not be horrible.
"So a girl who says 'yes' may take that money and pay her power bill, put groceries in the fridge and even take the kids out for a Dairy Queen treat, all while staying where they live.
In your view of the world, it would have been better for her if she had never been offered that option and instead been forced to drag her kids to a shelter."
And the hypothetical scenario grows even more dire. If you don't offer your dick and a bit of cash, Tiny Tim and Leukemia Baby are now in a shelter.
"She is a hero to her children and worthy of respect for making a tough choice, yet you would rather see her forced into powerless victimhood. Not to protect her a you claim, but really because it better fits within your own self-righteous view of morality. Shame on you indeed."
I think individuals who survive hardship are thankful to not have people take advantage of them when they are at their lowest. And I'm not going to be one of those people.
I think it’s presumptuous to think that a girl that decided to work in a strip club is exploited. Mostly this conversation seems to be centered by folks that are making assumptions about things they have no way of knowing anything about.
===> "And the hypothetical scenario grows even more dire. If you don't offer your dick and a bit of cash, Tiny Tim and Leukemia Baby are now in a shelter. "
You realize that you just contradicted your own contentions by making light of this circumstance, right?
Also, are you able to respond to a full posting in a narrative response format, or is breaking it up into cherry picked digestible chunks the only way you can manage a response? Because honestly reading your posts is almost as painful as the smug arrogance you display in assuming that you are in a more rational state of mind to make a girl's decision for her.
No. I'm calling out that the fictional scenario you use to justify your shitty behavior grows more falsely dire as you go on making this argument in favor of being shitty.
You're not having a problem reading my posts. You're having a problem making a convincing argument. Don't worry. It's possible that you might do better in a debate once you take up a defensible position.
Are you eagle from stripperweb? Because he does the same thing, contradicting himself with his own posts and teasing out pieces because he's incapable of responding to whole arguments.
But ok, let's play along and watch you try to thread a needle. If he circumstances are not particularly dire, then doesn't weaken your contention that the OTC offer is exploitative? After all, she can't be that desperate then, right?
Oh, and my "argument" is that she is a grown woman able to make a rational decision. The fact that she may need the money doesn't detract from that since she has ultimately has other options if she chooses to decline the offer, albeit not the most appealing ones.
You, OTOH, want to assume that she is ignorant and powerless. Further, should her situation be as dire as we have discussed, you believe that you know better than her what her proper option is.
I'll happily defend my argument any day because I'm not the one who is viewing this through a blindly arrogant and self righteous lens. 😉
RickDugan said "I'll happily defend my argument any day because I'm not the one who is viewing this through a blindly arrogant and self righteous lens."
How quaint. Because I was about to say the same thing to you.
Rickdugan, legally, under certain conditions, such as when desperation due to addiction, financial problems, etc act as a coercive measure then no, she isn't able to make a sound decision. You argue about shit you don't understand simply because you want to legitimate your use of hookers. Get a girlfriend....
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So, we disagree.
It's a twisted permutation of being a white knight. "Hey, if I don't leverage her fear into a paid fuck at her weakest, most vulnerable moment, then God knows what might happen to her? Really, I'm doing her a tender kindness."
Which is delusional bull. Being a shitty human is shitty.
I've been in dire financial straights, and it felt like the worst thing in the world. I'm glad, though, that I didn't resort to crime to cover my debt (because that opportunity did present itself). Because, even if I'd gotten away with it, I suspect that I'd really existentially regret it today. Because, though it's no fun to run out of money, it's also not the crushing disaster I perceived at the time. It was horrible, but I survived without causing external damage.
Intentionally preying on people at their weakest moments (strippers or otherwise) is not a morally ambiguous act.
It's just being a shitty human.
You think the dancers we grope and fuck due it bc they like us
One thing is to be down if a woman that needs $$$ is down; another thing is to think one can have any woman down on her luck bc one has a few bucks to throw around - I give you the benefit of the doubt that you mean the former vs the latter.
I would feel a lot more pathetic knowing that I got sex only because the woman was between a rock and a hard place.
I don’t know. I just feel that for a woman, grinding on a hard dick is not as denigrating as being penetrated.
Gotta' love the willful ignorance approach. it's ok if she is doing it because she's in a tough spot so long as you don't know about it. 😉
Not emotional. It was an argument to your position that her possible financial misfortune justifies manipulating vulnerability into paid sex.
Also, you seem to consistently after guys about emotionalism or their manhood when they present any sort of debate or position that is counter to your world view. It's petulant, and not a counter argument.
"but you didn't answer my question."
I did. You just didn't like or understand the answer.
"Would it be better if she was evicted from her home?"
Possibly. Yes. I can't predict or control how hardship will hurt or even help someone, ultimately. But I can treat people like humans, and not exploit their vulnerability.
Sure... I can only imagine you toiling away in the hand-job mines of Kentucky to make ends meet. Leaving the work site at the end of the day with semen crusting over your helmet light.
You should see if Juice will write a country western song about such a plight.
So, I guess the secret to making this not shitty (at least in your head) is to modify the hypothetical woman's hardship until riding your dick for cash becomes an act of chivalry.
You probably shouldn't hold your breath for that "slow clap" moment...
You, on the other hand, need to see it as some great injustice involving a desperate victim. In doing so, you diminish her. Making a choice like that makes her a fuck ton more respectable than a weak and lazy POS victim mentality type. She is doing what she needs to in order to provide for her kids. The person who deserves contempt is not the "whore', but rather the person who would let circumstances steam roll her babies when she could have done something to prevent it.
Also, I think a lot of women at AMPS are struggling. I'm not talking about slaves; just women from China who barely speak English.
And its not how capitalism works. There are laws against exploitation in business endeavors.
You're also getting into a grey area whereby depending on the type of exploitation at hand, the exploited individual cannot give consent...
I justify it with the rationalization that they'd be doing it whether I was engaging or not. It's also heightened my awareness to treat these ladies with respect and not be complete jag-o-lantern. Plus, I'd like to think they'd want to sex with me regardless if I was paying or not because I'm in great shape, well-groomed, with impeccable hygiene, and attentive to their needs. Hell, I'd want to have sex with myself. And sometimes I do.
If you truly believed what you preach, you'd act on it in realms other than soliciting prostitutes.
Go openly engage in child exploitation, the exploitation of senior citizens, labor exploitation, etc and tell us how it works out for you.
A young single mother with little education has few options. She can live on welfare and charity, which is not much of a life and carries a social stigma. She can work for minimum wage or a couple dollars an hour more ($15K to $20K a year), which may provide the bare necessities but little more. Or she can become a stripper/sex worker, which will allow her to earn $60K to $100K a year (tax free).
The hypocrites and do-gooders attack the sex workers, although today they do it by claiming sex workers are all victims of trafficking and exploitation. They attack the women's means of earning a living, but of course they don't care that the women will be forced into poverty without sex work. The hypocrites and do-gooders only pretend to care about the women. You don't see them offering unemployed strippers $100K jobs at their companies.
The thing that should be illegal is forced sex trafficking. Otherwise, women should be free to make their own decisions and engage in sex work or not as they decide for themselves.
Go openly engage in child exploitation, the exploitation of senior citizens, labor exploitation, etc and tell us how it works out for you.
However, you neglect to include that both parties get exploited here. The prostitute is being exploited for sex because she is desperate for money, while the John is being exploited for money because he is desperate for sex.
To quote Samantha from Sex and the City, "Money is power. Sex is power. Therefore, getting money for sex is simply an exchange of power."
@Willy again with the sketchy comments. Those asian women are not struggling. They are frugal and do very well for themselves. If anything they are overeager to send more money back to thier relatives who are like extravagantly compared to the other people in the country.
Again treat dancers with respect, but I dont think any of themgo home crying because they had to give extras at a discount. They should be happy LE is too busy to put them out of business or worse in jail
Probably as straight-forward (and accurate) as it gets
I'm no expert in Mexican economics; but the $$$ these TJ girls make goes way-longer in MX than it would in the US - the $$$ a good TJ/HK girl makes probably would put her in the top 5% of Mexican wage-earners and those girls can probably buy more than one home cash after working some time in a good club like HK (maybe not in the most exclusive neighborhoods but likely doable in the middle-class neighborhoods)
I do as well. But, be it dancers or civilians, I temper that with the fact that they're people. I try to not be shitty to people.
"You, on the other hand, need to see it as some great injustice involving a desperate victim."
Not sure about all that, but when it's a guy intentionally seeking out women in a vulnerable, desperate condition for the purpose of leveraging a paid fuck, I think that's predatory and pretty horrible.
I'm okay with not being predatory or horrible.
"In doing so, you diminish her."
lol
"Making a choice like that makes her a fuck ton more respectable than a weak and lazy POS victim mentality type."
The specious logic here is that a woman in dire financial straits only has the choice between riding dick for cash or being a 'lazy POS victim-mentality type'. People in financial crisis have options other than crime, paid sex, etc. And many figure it out and survive their hardship.
And I bet most of them are thankful that no one took advantage of them when they were at their weakest, lowest point. Unless, of course, you happened to wander into their life at the time...
"She is doing what she needs to in order to provide for her kids."
I suspect that's part of your prepared script for some of your more reluctant lays. People have choices other than crime and paid sex when they've run out of money. Coercing them into believing that they have no other choice is predatory.
"The person who deserves contempt is not the "whore', but rather the person who would let circumstances steam roll her babies when she could have done something to prevent it."
I see that the hypothetical woman you're saving from calamity no longer has 'kids', but 'babies' now. Is one of those babies named "Tiny Tim"? Does the other have leukemia? Do you have a wee cape that you tie around your dick right before you swoop in to "save" them? More important, are you able to write off your OTC payments as charitable donations?
There's no honor in taking advantage of vulnerable, fearful people. And there's no contempt in leaving them to possibly take a better path that won't fill them with regret.
You know, a big part of my stance here is that I don't want to be shitty to people as a default. But, another part is that I don't enjoy the idea of looking at a woman I'm having sex with and seeing any sort of sadness, fear, regret, or existential crisis.
But that is apparently not the case for you. I seem to remember that you had at least one stripper you "saved" who wept with guilt after the deed was done. And when you posted the story here, you stated that all you felt was annoyance that she was a "buzz kill".
I never want to be in that situation. And I hope I'm never the sort of person who has such a callous reaction.
If that makes me a "do gooder", then sign me up for the newsletter.
Synonyms... "taking advantage, abuse of, misuse, ill treatment, unfair treatment, bleeding dry, sucking dry, squeezing, wringing; manipulation
If that word doesn't exactly match up with your sentiments on this issue, that's fine. Use another word.
But I'm sticking to my "not being shitty to people" stance on this issue, regardless of any quibbles regarding vocabulary.
Are you one of those types who believes that he knows what's good for her more than she does herself? Do you really imagine that she isn't aware of the shelter, dining programs, food banks and all the other resources available to her locally? Is it really that hard for you to comprehend that she is making that choice with a full view of all of her other options?
Have you thought of running for office? I ask because there is a political party that is dominant in your area that specializes in erroneously believing that they know what is good for us more than we do ourselves. 😉
Shame on you for diminishing her yet further by believing that you know more than she does about what the right choice for her is.
Just because some strippers are predators of unsuspecting PLs does not mean it’s okay to become predators ourselves.
Okay, another question: During that 3 hours, I bought two VIPS ($240 total + tip), my buddy bought 1 (or 2, can't remember) VIPs from her (so either $120 or $240 + tip). During that same time period -- again, slowest part of the day on her slowest shift -- NO other stripper got any VIPs, just lap dances. So the girl made $400+ during a period of time when many of the girls just made their minimum wage from the club plus a couple of lap dances. Hell, she made $500+ if my buddy did 2 VIPs rather than just one. Am I exploiting her?
In the end, I just go by intentions. My intention is not to fuck her over. In fact, part of my motivation is I genuinely like her, and do enjoy helping her fill out her dead times, when there's no real opportunity cost for hanging out with me for 3 hours for a mere 2 VIPs. And sometimes she gets a bonus that I'm always willing to share her with my buddies. I'm looking for a good deal for myself, but also want her happy. I'd bet anything that she looked at this trip, even with my usual mere 2 VIPs spent, as win-win. She made more in the 3 hours I was there, than many of those girls will make for that entire dayshift. Still, the girl is a legit 8.5, and would make far more at an upscale club (she sometimes works at spearmint rhino in vegas, so she's hot enough for it) at night shift... she's just chosen, for her own reasons, to work SF dayshift.
I laughed at the implication that manipulating someone who is vulnerable into paid sex is a form of chivalry, while not doing so diminishes them.
But you are correct. I shouldn't have laughed. Because that position is abhorrent on your part.
"Are you one of those types who believes that he knows what's good for her more than she does herself? Do you really imagine that she isn't aware of the shelter, dining programs, food banks and all the other resources available to her locally?"
I don't know what she knows. And I don't know if exploiting her vulnerability will hurt her far more than help her. But I know that exploiting fear and vulnerability is a horrible act. So... I don't do that.
"Is it really that hard for you to comprehend that she is making that choice with a full view of all of her other options?"
I can't assume her state of mind or breadth of knowledge any more than you can. But, I know that desperate people are far more prone to bad, regrettable decisions than good decisions. And I don't seek to leverage that into a paid fuck.
"Have you thought of running for office? I ask because there is a political party that is dominant in your area that specializes in erroneously believing that they know what is good for us more than we do ourselves."
Not taking advantage of vulnerable people is a human stance, not a political position. I'm sorry you don't see it that way.
"Shame on you for diminishing her yet further by believing that you know more than she does about what the right choice for her is."
I'll happily accept all the shame in world for not exploiting weakness and vulnerability in others just so I can squirt a bit of jism.
So a girl who says "yes" may take that money and pay her power bill, put groceries in the fridge and even take the kids out for a Dairy Queen treat, all while staying where they live. In your view of the world, it would have been better for her if she had never been offered that option and instead been forced to drag her kids to a shelter.
She is a hero to her children and worthy of respect for making a tough choice, yet you would rather see her forced into powerless victimhood. Not to protect her a you claim, but really because it better fits within your own self-righteous view of morality. Shame on you indeed.
If you're doing that, I think you're a dick. If you're not into doing that, we're fine.
Are you doing that?
RickDugan said "Unlike you CMI, I assume that she is making an informed decision."
You don't know her state of mind or breadth of knowledge any more or less than I do. But I take the position that seeking out vulnerable people to get my rocks off is shitty.
Your "my dick is hero and my wallet is the plucky sidekick" argument isn't swaying me, even if it is how you explain it away.
"But your smug arrogance makes you incapable of crediting a girl like her with any level of awareness similar to your own. The existence of these services within most local poor communities is not exactly a state secret, but you probably wouldn't know that either."
I don't pressure people into making decisions that might later make them hate themselves or start a destructive spiral that ends far worse than an unpaid light bill.
Again, I don't know how my taking advantage of another person's vulnerability will affect them. But I know it's horrible, and I choose to not be horrible.
"So a girl who says 'yes' may take that money and pay her power bill, put groceries in the fridge and even take the kids out for a Dairy Queen treat, all while staying where they live.
In your view of the world, it would have been better for her if she had never been offered that option and instead been forced to drag her kids to a shelter."
And the hypothetical scenario grows even more dire. If you don't offer your dick and a bit of cash, Tiny Tim and Leukemia Baby are now in a shelter.
"She is a hero to her children and worthy of respect for making a tough choice, yet you would rather see her forced into powerless victimhood. Not to protect her a you claim, but really because it better fits within your own self-righteous view of morality. Shame on you indeed."
I think individuals who survive hardship are thankful to not have people take advantage of them when they are at their lowest. And I'm not going to be one of those people.
Seems that some of you creeps get off on the power play of exploiting and are incorrectly calling your scenario such
You realize that you just contradicted your own contentions by making light of this circumstance, right?
Also, are you able to respond to a full posting in a narrative response format, or is breaking it up into cherry picked digestible chunks the only way you can manage a response? Because honestly reading your posts is almost as painful as the smug arrogance you display in assuming that you are in a more rational state of mind to make a girl's decision for her.
You're not having a problem reading my posts. You're having a problem making a convincing argument. Don't worry. It's possible that you might do better in a debate once you take up a defensible position.
But ok, let's play along and watch you try to thread a needle. If he circumstances are not particularly dire, then doesn't weaken your contention that the OTC offer is exploitative? After all, she can't be that desperate then, right?
What I believe is exploitative is the intentionally targeting of vulnerable women and using their desperation to manipulate them into paid sex.
You, OTOH, want to assume that she is ignorant and powerless. Further, should her situation be as dire as we have discussed, you believe that you know better than her what her proper option is.
I'll happily defend my argument any day because I'm not the one who is viewing this through a blindly arrogant and self righteous lens. 😉
How quaint. Because I was about to say the same thing to you.