OT: Happiness Is A Warm Gun

I have a Sig-Sauer P-229. It is 9mm and holds 13 rounds. It is hammer fired and does not have an external safety. Your first shot is double action and succeeding shots are single action. It is very accurate and I prefer it to a couple Glocks I own. I don't like external safeties. I want to know that when I pull the trigger the gun will fire.

Sig saucer has fantastic handguns. Although, I do not own one, I do own several weapons. My favorite carry weapons are my Glock 26 (9 mm) and my Ruger SP101 357 magnum. When I am out camping, I carry my Glock 19. Actually, I am carrying my Glock 19 now because I am not in my work attire. Some of my favorite handguns that I own are Kahr CW 45, Kahr CW 9, Kahr 350, Chiapa Rhino 357 magnum, Buckmark 22. My favorite long guns are my M1 Garand, M1 Carbine 30 cal, Remington 870 tactical, Mosin nagaunt. I have really nice Mini 14 that I am Picking up for $650. Got him down from $950. 10 magazines included.

I’m not a favor of external safeties. I do make sure all my handguns have a drop safety. I prefer a trigger that is at least 8 lb draw. I am quite accurate with that style and it takes more for one to have an accidental discharge.

My pocket pistol is a Ruger GP 100 357 Magnum

You should invite RickDugan to go shooting w/ you

This M17 is a my second SIG pistol. I have had a P230 chambered in .380 for years as my "carry" weapon, although I rarely carry it. It's usually in the console of my car. It's basically the SIG answer to the to the Walther PPK of James Bond fame.

Have never been into guns - have never owned one - nor have I ever fired one (have not even held one in my hand) - always been scared of them seeing how many people have gotten injured by them, and the damage they've done when people get angry (just yesterday there was an incident of road-rage here in SoFlo where both drivers shot at each other - one was killed and the other was clinging to life and not expected to make it) - not saying these are reasons not to own a gun, just that they do a lot of damage and I'd prefer a world w/o guns in the hands of civilians (again b/c of how much damage they do in our society although I know there's lots of enthusiasts).

Having said this - it's been on my mind to have a gun for self-protection - Miami is f'ing shitty w/ a ton of shitty people - I know there's shitty people everywhere but every time I travel out of Miami/SoFlo it feels less shitty.

Out of curiosity, how much does that new gun go for?

Premature post, to continue: The M17 comes standard with two 17 round magazines, and came with a rebate for two 21 round magazines. They look cool and are fun at the range, but probably useless for anything but military purposes.

"... no external manual safety ..."

What does that mean exactly - no safety at all - if you drop-it it can go off?

Papi: This particular pistol was $650 at Bass Pro Shops, which is a pretty good deal for a top manufacturer and given the MSRP is something like $750, and especially considering the rebate for two 21 round magazines, which list for $49 each.

If you are actually considering purchasing one for self defense, as a gun novice, the way to go would be something like the Ruger GP 100 mentioned by MackTruck, which is a revolver. Revolvers are basically fool proof and completely immune to malfunctions, except a possible ammunition misfire, which are extremely rare. Except MackTruck's is .357 Magnum, which is powerful cartridge and not really for beginners. But you could also shoot 38 special in it for familiarization and then transition to .357 Magnum.

^ all guns today have a safety mechanism, some do not require you to move a switch,

nrafamily.org

Again - I've never fired or held a gun - but have never liked the look of a revolver - from watching TV back-in-the-day I used to like the 45 Starsky used to carry over Hutch's revolver.

" What does that mean exactly - no safety at all - if you drop-it it can go off?" Funny you should mention that. Immediately after the M17 was adopted as the new military handgun, it was discovered that if the P320 (original civilian version) was dropped at a particular angle, it would fire. There was no evidence that this was a problem with the military version, which does have some differences, including the manual safety. I'm not sure if the manual safety would have made a difference for the drop fire problem in the civilian version, which as far as I know was never fully explained. As best I could tell from gun magazine reporting, it had to do with the mass of the trigger mechanism, which allowed it, if dropped a particular angle from a particular height, to react (move) as if being pulled by a finger. This was not discovered during testing because the tests (as you probably guess from being an engineer) call for drop tests to be conducted at particular angles and heights which did not replicate every possibility, as the real world does.

SIG implemented a "voluntary modification" program that supposedly fixed the drop fire problem for the civilian P320s.

The weapon Starsky carried in the TV show was Colt .45, which the military designated the M1911A1, and was the standard military side arm from 1911 until the Beretta was adopted in the mid 1980s. It's a great weapon (I have one), but not really for beginners.

If it's something you're really interested in, you should find a local range that offers classes and allows you to fire different types of handguns, including revolvers and automatics. There are many in Georgia and I'm sure Florida is the same way.

@Papi the .45 cal pistol is a large gun not really suitable for Concealed Carry, I carry a S & W Bodyguard which is a .380 cal, it's available both as a semi auto and a revolver, most folks nowaday carry different versions of 9mm. which is slightly larger than mine, I prefer the smaller size and the lightweight ballistic plastic frame of the smith. You can probably get this pistol for under $500. and it's a fairly high quality firearm.

"no external manual safety". Many semi-auto pistols have a lever-type device that will prevent the pistol from being fired when the safety is engaged. The problem with an external safety, in my mind, is that the safety causes the pistol to be less safe. If you need to fire your gun, you may forget the safety is on, which means it won't fire when you are in danger. You also may believe the safety is on when it is not, and you may play with the trigger of the "safe" gun and shoot yourself.

A revolver will not have an external safety. It is double action, which means the trigger pull takes more force because the trigger first pulls back the hammer and then releases it. A revolver will not go off unless you pull the trigger with a lot of pressure.

A semi-auto is single action. The force to pull the trigger is much less. Some people want an external safety so you can't accidentally fire it. Glock, however, put the safety on the trigger itself, so the safety is always engaged unless you pull the trigger. My Sig-Sauer P-229 is double action for the first shot, which makes it safe to carry, and single action for succeeding shots (which makes it easier to fire.)

Modern revolvers and semi-autos will not go off when you drop them. They will not fire unless the trigger is pulled.

"... the .45 cal pistol is a large gun not really suitable for Concealed Carry ..."

Yeah - it seems .45's are outta style - I was just trying to say I like the style/wait-it-looks, over a revolver

w.r.t a safety - I would be concerned if I was carrying as a concealed weapon and it accidentally going-off if I hit something or just moved my body in a awkward way and why I assume there'd be some kinda mechanism to avoid that (else people would be accidentally shooting themselves all the time carrying their concealed weapon LOL).

What do you guys do when you travel - do you travel gunless, or always check in a bag and put the gun in the checked-bag?

You can buy a good concealed carry revolver or semi-auto for $400 to $900. Find a gun store with a shooting range. Ask them to show you a variety of guns and then try firing the guns at their range. They will usually have guns available to try out. Purchase something that is small enough to carry concealed and something that feels good in your hand.

Check out the regulations for concealed carry in Florida. You will probably have to take a course and pay some fees to get your license.

" Yeah - it seems .45's are outta style - I was just trying to say I like the style/wait-it-looks, over a revolver"

Actually, the Colt 1911 .45 caliber is not out of style at all. Despite being over 100 years old, there are many that even today consider it to be the perfect automatic handgun design, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree with them. Marine special operations forces are using a variant of it today. And as far as pure style goes, it's a beautiful piece of machinery. Its form follow function, and there is nothing in its design that does not have a function.

You can also get it in smaller sizes designed for concealed carry with shortened grips and barrels sizes. Again, however, I think it's not really a beginner pistol, but if you go to the range, become familiar with firearms, which really wouldn't take that long, particularly if you are a technologically adept person, which you probably are as an engineer, it wouldn't take that long.

I do not fly with a gun. You can get in a world of trouble because there are regulations for packing a gun when you fly. And then if you fly into a state like New York that has strict gun laws you may be arrested for having a gun at all. I have read stories about honest citizens flying into NYC, declaring they have a gun, and being sent to jail.

When I drive, I check the laws of each state I go through. I have driven from Michigan through Ohio and into Pennsylvanian with a gun. I can do this because Ohio and Pennsylvania have reciprocal agreements with Michigan about concealed carry licenses. If I tried to drive into Illinois, I would be breaking the law.

Papi: Traveling with a gun can be a tricky legal issue. There is no nationwide "carry permit." However, many states, particularly southern states, have reciprocity and recognize each others carry permits, but there could be technicalities that could cause problems. You can travel with firearms by air, but you have to declare them an put them in checked baggage, and handguns could be a huge issue depending on the state you are going to. Since I live in the south, all of the neighboring states have reciprocity (I think), so if I drive, I bring my gun with me. If I fly, it's too much of a hassle since I don't like to check bags.

^ 👍

I would assume there'd be some sort of "rent-a-gun" program in different cities for travelers - i.e. where you would not have to take the risk of taking it on a flight w/ you (I would assume guns are a high-value target for airport employees that are thieves) - and you could pick-up a gun-rental in a city you fly into where your carry-permit would be valid/honored.

Anyone ever heard of anything like this?

@papi To prevent the gun from going off accidentally is to always have the gun holstered in a good holster that shields the trigger. If the trigger is not pressed, then the gun does not go boom. I carry either a 357 revolver or a full size 9 mm or sometimes I carry both at the same time. I carry every day, everywhere (except in a strip club). The only places that I don’t carry are anywhere that is using a metal detector. If they are simply doing pat downs, I still carry in a method that has gotten me through multiple pat downs even when the police patted me down. In MO, there are 17 venues that we are not supposed to carry. However, it is only a misdemeanor if caught carrying in those venues AND the police are called AND the police ask you to leave AND you refuse. Then, you can be charged with misdemeanor trespassing. Thus, I always carry concealed and I do it so well that you can literally rub up against me (hopefully you won’t) and still never know my weapon is on me. When traveling, i check the laws of each state and simply abide by them. You can check your weapon at the airlines when you store it for air transport. Just call the airline and see what their procedure is.

As far as what a drop safety is ... it is basically a physical blocking device within the gun that does not allow the hammer or striker to rest on the cartridge so that in the event of dropping, the firing pin cannot come into contact and fire the cartridge. The only guns that are commonly without a drop safety are the small revolver derringers. Thus, when I carry my small 22 derringer revolver, I carry with one empty chamber.. the chamber that the firing pin sits on. Thus, if dropped, it will have no cartridge to hit, yet when you press the trigger it revolves the next loaded chamber to fire the weapon.

There is NO RENTAL GUNS for carry. That would be highly illegal.

Nidan: Althought I am not aware of any rental carry guns, I'm not sure that it would be illegal. If it's rented to a person with a carry license who can pass a background check, is that legal? I don't know. If not, why not? Anyway, it would be too much of a hassle to find a place and rent a gun while traveling. It would be easier to just bring it with you in check baggage if the destination state has reciprocity.

^^^ Dr Evil I’m pretty certain that when the gun leaves the store/range, etc, then it would be considered a transfer. To transfer that weapon would require filling out all the proper forms and going through a background check. Also, many states disallow the sale/transfer of a weapon to an out of state individual. One can purchase out of state, but it has to be transferred between two FFL (federal firearms licensees) to then ultimately transfer to the purchaser who was out of state.

Maybe Uber should expand and have Uber Guns that it delivers to you

😄

@papi. Yes. Gun Running at is most efficient means. 😂

Nidan: Yes, good point. The legal issue is "transfer" not sale "sale" so you are most likely correct.

On the manual safety issue, it's a close call for me, but I fall on the side of liking a manual safety on any automatic firearm. I've been around firearms pretty much my whole adult life, and have carried them professionally for a significant portion of that time. When many people are carrying lots of firearms all the time, accidents will happen. The manual safety reduces that possibility. Although I think I'm pretty well trained and familiar with firearms, I know I am not immune from the laws of probabilities, so I like a manual safety. Plus, if needed, on a properly designed firearm, like the M17, the safety can be flicked off with the thumb during the drawing/aiming process so it take no more time to engage with it than if there was no manual safety. Of course, another issue is if you should carry with a round chambered, which I am also not a big fan of, unless you know you are in a high threat environment. I know there are many concealed carry proponents who believe they are always in a high threat environment, but I have a different view.

This is one of my favorite songs on The White Album

One more point, papi. Never carry a loaded pistol in the front of your waistband, lest it fire accidently and leave you half-cocked! 😉

I have a Beretta, a .308 I think, that my father brought back from Italy after WWII. Not the more valuable one.

Clubber: I would think it would be a .32 or .380. The .308 is a rifle cartridge, military designation 7.62 mm. It’s used in sniper rifles and machine guns.

Papi, don't reject revolvers without taking a look at some. I have a S&W 642, which is a 5-shot 38 special. It fits nicely in my pocket, which is good for the summer months when I don't have a jacket to hide a holstered pistol. In Miami you have nothing but summer months and so you need a gun small enough to conceal when you're wearing shorts and a T-shirt.

Clubber: on second thought, I believe some early European pistol cartridges were in the 7.5 mm range and might be considered .308 caliber, but you usually see them with the metric designation.

Jack is right. A small revolver is probably the perfect self defense weapon. They have fallen out of favour though because they don’t have the cool factor of an automatic with high cap magazines.

@Jack a small revolver like the one I mentioned earlier is the S&W bodyguard, it’s perfect for a pocket, and easy for a novice it’s practically impossible to screw up and will function well in adverse conditions

My latest, Sig P365, has the advantages of a small carry revolver, highly concealable, but with 9mm and 13shot capacity . No external safety which is my preference. One fo the sweetest shooting guns I’ve ever shot. My 45auto feels like a 10lb, awkward claw hammer now.

doctor,

Typo, .380 and when one has a number of different caliber weapons, confusion reigns. To damn many calibers out there! :)

Question for those that carry an auto. Do you keep a round in the chamber? Just wondering.

Clubber: I usually don’t. If I’m in a particularly sleazy area of town, I might chamber a round.

Clubber, I carry a Glock 19, and yes I do keep a round in the chamber. Not that I expect to have to fire a gun in anger ever again, but the few seconds it takes to chamber a round could mean the difference between life and death. Dramatic, yes. But also true.

I prefer a semi-auto - if I'm gonna shoot somebody I prefer to do it in style

Do you guys do your own maintenance on your guns or do you have someone do it for you (or do modern guns not need much maintenance)

I clean my carry gun every week the others not so much

Whether to carry with a chambered round depends on your personal risk assessment. For on duty cops, sure it makes sense. They never know when a situation is going to escalate from benign to life and death in an instant. For the rest of us, I think the chances of encountering a life and death situation with no warning at all is pretty low. The chances of some kind of accident from always carrying with chambered round seen higher. So I don’t usually chamber a round. It should take no more than 1 second to chamber a round. Another reason why revolvers are really better for a personal defense carry weapon: 5 or 6 rounds are always chambered. But I’m with Papi, got to look cool if you’re going to carry.

I always carry chambered. Unless you are extremely proficient with the Israeli Carry / draw method, then the seconds that require you to rack that slide and get a shot off, especially during adrenaline dump, it could be life or death in that short time.

I clean my Glock after each use session, but the Glocks really need very little maintenance.

Guns require little maintenance. After going to the firing range and shooting 50 or 100 rounds, I clean my gun. Besides that, you don't need to do anything. A good quality semi-auto or revolver should function for years without any problems.

--Vintage Browning A5 (12 ga.)

-- Vintage Fox Savage Model B Double Barrel (20 ga.)

-- Mosin Nagant (Finnish sniper variant)

-- Smith & Wesson Model 586 (.357)

-- Remington 700 (30-06)

-- Ruger 10/22

Some purchased and some simply found their way to me. I don't own an automatic handgun. Possibly the next acquisition. Probably will be a Sig 229.

I’m aligned with Nidan111, pretty much all self defense experts will ALWAYS recommend carrying one in the chamber. Unless you drill like an Israeli that lost time can cost you your life. I’m not law enforcement but have had a good deal of the same training, including simulators. It is amazing how much adrenaline impacts you ability or more importantly inability to perform under stress.

If you are worried about an accidental discharge, get more training and spend more time on the range. Cleaning and maintenance wise, I clean after every 400-500 rounds.

Ishmael, I'm jealous as all hell right now.

Mosin Nagant: When you absolutely, positively, have to hit the side of a barn two counties over.

Paraphrased from this:

7.62x54r.net

Lol... I've never seen that. And I've spent time on a lot of Mosin Nagant sites. It's a fantastic rifle.

Bubba: I know I'm in the minority on the chambered v. not chambered issue, but I don't think it's an issue of a "right" way and a "wrong" way. I'm not afraid of an accidental discharge. I just recognize it can happen, and the probability of it happening is likely much higher than the probability I will be attacked out of the blue with no warning. In every other circumstance besides a sudden random attack with no warning, the 1 second it will take to chamber a round is irrelevant.

I'm not sure why unchambered carry is called the Israeli carry. I don't think they invented it. In fact, I think it's pretty common. In the U.S. military you don't walk around locked and loaded all of the time, even in a combat zone. If you're in a rear area or on the FOB, your weapon is kept clear. Only when you go outside the wire, where there is higher probability of an engagement, do you lock and load. Does that mean there's no threat in the rear or on the FOB? No, there could be infiltrators or insider attacks, and in fact there have been. It's just safer not to have chambered rounds all the time.

Doc, I definitely believe it to be personal preference. I'm also with you, doesn't matter what the experts say, it's what is important to you as an individual and the situation that one finds oneself in. I also should clarify this chambered vs non chambered theoryand the direction i choose is mostly for concealed carry individuals. I agree with your observation about military. Military with US and Israeli don't walk around lock and loaded, but I believe that is due to close proximity and the probability of friendly fire incidents.

Wasn't challenging your experience and expertise, just offering what the "hardcore" self defense experts mostly teach. That said, they will say do what you have confidence in and train for. Good topic and discussion.

All good points. The decision to carry is a very personal one and each person must define their method of carry based on their comfort level. Just like which gun is best to carry. Everyone must find the level of comfort with the weapon that they carry lest they will likely not carry at all.

As for The Israeli method ... I was referring to their training style when drawing their handgun. They heavily train in methods to draw, rack and assess to the point of it being absolutely second nature. Not necessarily that they invented the technique more so than they actually train heavily on doing the technique. Just style more than anything.

As far as self defense is concerned, cops vs non cops, I would challenge the thought that cops need to be chambered more so because they never know when their contact may turn bad. Cops carry OPEN on the belt with much quicker access for that reason. When you are forced by law to cover your weapon (as many states do), then you are adding more valuable seconds to your need for applying self defense. I have defended myself 6 times in my life, 2 times were against more than 3 attackers at one time. That was when I was younger (40 ish) and still had good speed and power in my Martial Arts skills. I’m not certain that it would have turned out so good for me had those incidents occurred to me now in my mid 50s. That is why I now carry a weapon. When attacks occur to citizens, it has been my experience that they occur rapidly and when the citizen is most vulnerable.