What type of relationship - II

shadowcat: Are you implying by law and order type that a lot of off duty law enforcement is going to your favorite club? Nothing wrong with that I guess but I was just curious.

I think the clubs that fall halfway in between the small neighborhood bar-type places and the really big GC's are often the best, and it sounds like that's about where your club is. That would generally be my type of place too - big enough to have a decent selection of girls but without all the GC crap - parking lot and bathroom attendants, DJs, bouncers everywhere, fancy whore-house decore, dancers with attitudes, and super-high prices. There just don't seem to be many casual medium-sized places like that around here, most of the places seem to be one extreme or the other.

That's one of the main reasons that I don't especially like most GC's, that's where you find the major attitudes. It's much less common to find attitudes in the smaller clubs. Probably because a girl with attitude wouldn't make any money in a titty bar, the customers would all ignore her.

Oh, absofuckinglutely! The dancers with the worst attitudes are generally too stupid to know how to play the game and have no sense of humor. It's a little trickier to spot that right away on-line(though not always) but, fortunately, it's VERY easy to spot it in the clubs. Intelligence and a sense of humor are key components for me with a dancer. I'm not talking about IQ, more like common sense and a general awareness of what's going on in the world. It's amazing how easily some women get wrapped-up in the lifestyle of being a dancer and set-up their lives so that the whole world revolves arounfd them. Not my type, no matter how beautiful...see ya!

I expect it too. After all, we've both met dancers with major attitudes and there are clearly some of those who post regularly over there. There difference is that I don't mind calling them on it once in awhile. But I don't do it very often because some of them aren't too bright so it's not much fun. Which raises an interesting question - are the dancers with attitude generally less intelligent? Now that I think about it, that's definately a possibilty, I've met some like that.

FONDL: I agree with you about some of the generalzations over there and it is typicaly the same women. I guess the difference with me is that I sort of expect it and I don't waste my time trying to change anyones mind. The women that do seem to get it over there can offer some interesting viewpoints. I may not always agree but I don't always agree with you either! That's usually when the fun starts! I've helped a few girls find clubs, and even hooked one dancer from the site up with a fav of mine who makes clothes for dancers.

I only ever post there in 2 situations: where a dancer is looking for information on a club whith which I'm familiar, or they're asking for customer opinions. In the first case, I've helped 3 different girls find new clubs, no problem there. But in the second case many of the girls don't really want an opinion if it differs from their own. So why do they ask? Just like you take exception with some of the generalizations that I make (which doesn't bother me at all by the way, it's led to some interesting discussion between us), I take exception when one of them says, "All customers are (insert something derogatory here)" I think that's BS and I have a low tolerance for BS, whether in person or on the internet. But as I've said before, I rarely go to the pink site anymore, I find it pretty boring. I think you find much more intelligent and interesting conversation here.

FONDL: Since your not stripper it doesn't prove anything. When they attack you they are attacking a customer. Though I agree with a lot of what you are saying here, it's impossible for you to put yourself in the place of a dancer, no matter how many conversations you have had with them. I don't even try.

I try not to be mean and in fact I rarely post on the pink site anymore. And when I do I only post what I consider to be valid arguments that have been ignored by the thread. I think there are a lot of girls on that site who are afraid to post their thoughts because of the way others will treat them. I'm always amazed at how fast some of the people on that site will attack anyone personally who disagrees with them. We don't seem to do that here, in fact most of us seem to enjoy disagreeing with each other. Some of the girls on the pink site obviously have huge attitudes and they seem to chase away the nicer girls, most of whom don't last long there. So while it's a support site as you suggest, it only offers support for girls with a certain mind-set, others aren't welcome. I have a problem with that because most of the strippers who I have known wouldn't agree with a lot of the prevailing opinions expressed there. Which is why I rarely read or post on that site, I don't think it's at all representative of most strippers. And when I've pointed that out I've been attacked personally. Which I think proves my point.

FONDL: Weather you like it (or realize it)or not, the pink site is an on-line support group for those women. That's what support groups do. Obviously you have a right to your opinions but if your just posting over there to stir shit up that's just plain mean. Maybe you or I don't need a support group for our jobs but we both get to keep our clothes on at work and strange people seldom try to grope us. It's a tough job and there are not a lot of people that a dancer can talk to about it. Your favs like you for the same reason mine like me-because we treat them with respect when we visit them. Why should it be any different on-line?

Yoda, that's why I post there sometimes, I think it's funny the reactions that I get. As I've mentioned before, I'm a contrarian. When I see 10 posts in a row agree with each other, I'll almost always post the opposite point of view, just to liven things up. The way everyone pats each other on the back on the pink site sometimes makes me want to throw up. Especially the pussy guys who keep telling all the girls how wonderful they are.

FONDL: When you post on SW you are posting on a dancer's board, you have to expect a reaction like that.

Yoda, I'm glad to hear you say that. I've been saying for years that I think a lot of dancers would be better off working at the smaller neighborhood places than at the GC's. In my estimation, the top girls in the GC's make all the money and everyone else does fairly poorly. A lot of these girls would do better in smaller clubs where the competition isn't as stiff and there aren't as many girls working each shift. When I suggested such a thing on the pink site, after hearing a bunch of complaints about how bad business is (because of the Republicans of course) I got a ton of hate mail. I thought that was pretty funny.

FONDL: I don't care much for GC's either and, though I have met a few very nice ladies in a coupe of local GC's, I don't frequent those clubs. Luckily for me, Brazilian dancers are very practical and would much rather work in a busy club with low house fees and tip-outs than in a GC where it can cost as much as $200 a night for them to work. Too many dancers are lured to the GC's with visions of big-spenders in the VIP room when the reality is that, if you work hard, you can make damn good money in a local bar on a consistant basis.

Yoda, the biggest problem I have is that the type of clubs I like (eg. little neighborhood places) and the type of dancers that I like (intelligent college girls) rarely go together. The girls I like tend to want to work in the fancier and more expensive places, so to find dancers who I really like I have to go to clubs that I don't care for. Of course there are exceptions (like my ATF who worked in a tiny hole) but they're hard to find. Fortunately you do sometimes find the young party girl druggies in little clubs and I like some of them too. Come to think of it, my ATF was one when I met her.

FONDL: Beleive me the hustlers and the hookers exist in my neck of the woods as well. Most ofthem are not actualy Brazilian, more often than not they are of latino descent and yes, there is a huge difference. It's just like I keep saying, if you have your head on straight and you aren't looking for trouble, it's easy to avoid these types of dancers-wherever they came from. I don't think you and I will ever wind up waiting for a dance from the same girl but we both seem to know what we want and how to find it.

Yoda, you're experience has obviously been very different than mine. The only South American dancers who I have ever met were major hustlers (in the bad sence) and probably hookers or at least ex-hookers who totally turned me off. As a result I try to avoid the South American girls, which is easy since the few clubs that I go to regularly don't have any. In fact I rarely ever run into any foreign dancers, maybe because I avoid the places that I know have a lot of them.

FONDL: I think it depends on the woman's goals. I've met plenty of intelligent women who danced for 4 or 5 years to put themselves through school and then realized that they where not going to make nearly enough money in the real world at first to attain other goals-home ownership, starting a business, etc. I think smarter women are sometimes better prepared to deal with the BS and stay in dancing as long as they need to in order to achieve their goals. That being said, my ATF simply couldn't deal with the BS after 4 years and had to stop sooner than she had wanted to. It's definitely different strokes for different folks.

One thing I forgot to mention, my preference for South American women means that many of my favs are in school but doing it in their late 20's rather than their early 20's. There is a combination of intelligence and maturity in women in that position that I don't find in girls in there early 20's. I'm convinced that this is a big part of the reason that I find older women preferable to younger.

I have no objection to an older dancer and have met a few who I liked very much. I've just found that the odds of finding the attitude that I like are much better with the younger ones so I usually will try one of those first. The other thing I like is intelligence, and it's been my experience that most of the really intelligent ones don't usually dance for very long. I'm sure there are many intelligent older dancers and I don't mean to imply otherwise. I'm just talking about the odds of finding someone who I like. I seem to hit it off best with the college-age girls.

FONDL: I agree with you 1000 percent. That is exactly what I look for as well. I tend to prefer older dancers but not dancers who have been at it for a long time-quite a balancing act but I do manage to find them.

I'm not looking for immediate trust as much as I'm looking to avoid the mechanical girl. So many girls who have danced for awhile are totally bored with it and have this line of patter that sounds more like a recording than a real person. They obviously have no real interest in getting to know any of their customers at all. Those are the ones who I avoid. I look for the ones who still enjoy meeting new people. For example, not long ago I stopped in to see my current favorite and she was stting with another guy at the bar. So I sat at the bar too to wait for her. After 15 minutes or so the other guy got up and left. And I noticed that he didn't tip her and he hadn't bought any private dances (this is a club where tipping is pretty normal, especially if a girl sits and talks with you for awhile.) I asked her about it (we know each other well enough that this wasn't uncomfortable.) And she said something like, "No, he didn't tip me but he was a nice guy and I enjoyed talking to him so I don't mind." Maybe that's why she's my favorite. That's the kind of attitude I look for.

When they immediately start talking about how many kids they have it is simply way of trying to get you to spend money on them. One of my favs has 4 kids (you wouldn't know it to look at her) but she didn't bring it up until my 3rd or 4th visit to see her.

I don't usually ask any questions pertaining to a dancer's personal life except maybe where they are from after they ask me. I once had a dancer say she was new and I agreed to get a dance. Then she gave me so much personal information I was getting turned off from her. Right before I get a dance she starts telling me about her 3 kids age 3, 4, and 6 or something like that and goes on and on about her personal life. I was thinking she definitely is new. I was thinking I sure hope she doesn't think this is some kind of pick up bar instead of a strip club.

I agree, there are plenty of intelligent. likeable women who also happen to be beautiful working in strip clubs. I won't waste my time with a manipulating witch who is just coniving a way to get my money-I don't care what she looks like. That being said. I certainly don't expect a woman to open up and spill her guts to me the first time I buy a dance from her. Honesty and trust develop over time. How much time depends on the dancer but I actualy tend to be a little suspicious of a dancer who starts spilling the details of her private life TOO quickly.

I've had dancers tell me very similar stories. Rather than being surprised at how little dancers are willing to tell me about their lives (as the pink site woud have you believe) I'm usually amazed at how much they are not only willing but eager to tell me. Maybe it's because I'm usually with the very young ones. But so many girls are so trusting and open in clubs, I usually don't bother with the ones who aren't. Why waste my time with one who isn't going to trust me when so many are so willing to do so?

I never initiate conversations beyond "gee, you sure are beautiful and the weather. If, as I get to know a dancer on regular visits, she feels comfortable talking about her life that's great, it gives us more to talk about, means I will hang around longer and probably visit more often. I think both cutomers and dancers can be guilty of trying too hard to sell a line of BS. My favs have told me some outrageous stories over the years of the lines that customers try on them to get them to go out with them or even just to try and get more out of a lap dance.

I agreed with everything except the last sentence about "sticking with the fantasy." That's fine if I'm only going to see the girl once. But when I start seeing her regularly, at some point I lose interest in the fantasy and want to get to know the real girl. And the only ones I usually want to see more than once are the ones who don't try to feed me a line of BS in the first place. So I guess I'm not really into the fantasy part very much. I think a lot of girls sense that about me from the way I treat them. I never ask personal questions unless she starts telling me stuff about her personal life first, but a surprising number of them do. I guess I come across as being more trustworthy than most.

Interesting Mr. Fondl...Let's turn it around though. I have been to more than my share of clubs, often with business associates(clients) or sometimes with like-minded friends. I am constantly amazed at the level of BS some of my clubbing companions try to pass off as truth, all in some juvenile attempt to convince the dancer of God knows what. I mean, come on-- these girls have heard every line in the book and then some. Many of the married guys play the Im single and looking line or they flash a lot of cash pretending to be loaded when the fact is they have nothing more than what is in their pocket. or they go for the sympathy dance with "I just got divorced" and its so hard--lol(that one actually gets some good mileage). My point is that while you may be somewhat frustrated with dancers who don't seem to be straight up from the getgo-I would simply say, just like the newspaper- don't believe everything you read(or in this case, hear). You can't blame a girl for being a bit guarded with some stranger who walks into a strip club looking to get a grind from a naked girl he's never met! Come on-- are you really looking for some intimate details of this girls life? Most girls you meet out in the real world tend to be a bit guarded about personal stuff(even where they live) until they know you a bit and feel comfortable with you. And in the strip club environment there are lot's of reasons to be less than forthcoming(more than a few R.L.'s loose in these places). I like your strategy of sticking with regulars as that seems to be the best way to establish your bona-fides with a particular girl. While there are always exceptions, I would agree that the more comfortable she is and the more familiar you become--the more likely that you will see more of the "real" girl in the dancer. Having said that, most of what you will find in the "real" girl will most certainly fall short of your expectations in some fashion. At least that's my experience. Stick with the fantasy-- it rarely diappoints.

I agree that every is acting some of the time. In fact I'd go so far as to say that every person is acting some of the time. I know an awful lof of people who are very different when they're at work vs. when they aren't. I know I was. I have no problem with that as long as there isn't deception involved.

To a certain extent, every dancer is acting some of the time-as long as you are spending money on her. I don't really have a problem with this as long as there are no deliberate deception involved. To be honest, I've never found it very difficult to spot the real scamers and avoid them. Remember the old adage: If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

I have no problem with dancers playing a role, as long as they don't try to convince you that they aren't. But I think that when a dancer goes out of her way to try to convince you that she's for real, that is crossing the line and becomes deception. And a lot of girls do exactly that.

It depends on how much fantasy everyone believes there to be. I think it is most obviously shown when they pull some future ex-bachelor onto the stage. Usually, they whip him with a belt or pretend to fuck him up the ass, but generally, the guy plays along. Overtly, this appears confrontational, but it's really cooperative because everyone knows its a fantasy. Outside the club, no guy would ever do that.

As for the long run, I don't think any relationship is entirely cooperative. No one ever gets free lapdances, for example.

As for the prevalence of confrontational relationships, I think most of that is just the group mentality taking over. Many dancers I know hate large groups because they are, as my ATF would say, idiots.

Hi Fondl,

I wouldn't think of her playing a role as being confrontational in the least. The real woman inside the dancer may be a person that is a real turn off or she may be even nicer than the dancer persona or less common--> WYSIWYG. Anyway, most dancers believe it is their job to play a role and most customers expect a fantasy. So for the typical customer dancer relationship where is the confrontation in a dancer doing her job? If the customer isn't seeking a fantasy, then the customer might interpret the dancer's "lie" as being confrontational instead of cooperative. I look for a great realistic fantasy and appreciate it greatly when a dancer can perform a "real" GFE.

Yes, what you say makes sense if the customer is NOT seeking a fantasy.