Can a dancer become too humanized in a way?
rickdugan
Verified and Certifiable Super-Reviewer
Let me be clear, I treat every dancer I meet with courtesy, except for the rare few who just can't accept a simple no for an answer. This includes the girls I take OTC, who I treat with the respect and dignity that they deserve, at least so long as they don't make what should be a simple outing dramatic or complicated. But as we all know, our kindness has to be balanced when dealing with girls who make their living from coaxing money out of men by a variety of means. I think I've always done a pretty good job of keeping that balance by being friendly but showing enough grit that I'm not confused for an easy mark.
Also, I know that I've mentioned that I enjoy getting to know them. Admittedly, part of doing so gives me more intel that can be used in my various pursuits, but I also enjoy the human interaction for its own sake.
But I've recently found that knowing too much about them can be counter-productive to my goals, or at least for me. I was recently admitted into a closed local social media group that is run by local club staff and dancers. There are a number of local dancers, including a couple who I've had in my cross hairs for future OTC, who post in this place using their personal FB accounts. Sounds cool, right? Maybe so, but the further I've gone down the rabbit hole, the more humanized some of these girls have become, some to the point that I've been questioning my own behavior.
One example is a girl in her mid 20s who has been on my radar for some time. She is hot as hell and, up to this point, I've never viewed her as anything other than a young but grown woman. But apparently she has been posting on FB for many years, since her early HS or late middle school days. She was such an adorable kid, full of life and laughter. I may be a monger, but I'm a father and a Christian first and I just don't have the heart anymore to run the usual crap I would to get her OTC - it makes me feel like a dirty old man after seeing that and I'm not even 50 yet. There are others like this, including one other who has also been in my crosshairs.
I'd be very interested to hear thoughts on this.
Also, I know that I've mentioned that I enjoy getting to know them. Admittedly, part of doing so gives me more intel that can be used in my various pursuits, but I also enjoy the human interaction for its own sake.
But I've recently found that knowing too much about them can be counter-productive to my goals, or at least for me. I was recently admitted into a closed local social media group that is run by local club staff and dancers. There are a number of local dancers, including a couple who I've had in my cross hairs for future OTC, who post in this place using their personal FB accounts. Sounds cool, right? Maybe so, but the further I've gone down the rabbit hole, the more humanized some of these girls have become, some to the point that I've been questioning my own behavior.
One example is a girl in her mid 20s who has been on my radar for some time. She is hot as hell and, up to this point, I've never viewed her as anything other than a young but grown woman. But apparently she has been posting on FB for many years, since her early HS or late middle school days. She was such an adorable kid, full of life and laughter. I may be a monger, but I'm a father and a Christian first and I just don't have the heart anymore to run the usual crap I would to get her OTC - it makes me feel like a dirty old man after seeing that and I'm not even 50 yet. There are others like this, including one other who has also been in my crosshairs.
I'd be very interested to hear thoughts on this.
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54 comments
Seems like a cool girl, so now I am losing interest. This is not the jungle Rick. Why not just have a good time and let it go?
As a Christian, and as smart as you think you are, it took you 20 years and paying probably thousands of wonen for sex to now have this epiphany?
I think this is more typical Rick where it's really more about him and he wants TUSCL to know "how good a guy he is".
Yes Rick - all dancers are human - congratulations that you realize this after 20-years and paying and manipulating a 1000+ women for sex.
I personally don't buy this mea culpa confessional - I think it's typical self-serving Dugan.
This would be a golden thread for old boy Dougster to tear apart.
As a female millennial who attended a Catholic school, but somewhere along the way did not absorb any of the teachings and left college and became a stripper, you can probably guess that my viewpoint is different than yours.
As long as you maintain your point of view, then yes you are a bona fide creep. All sex workers used to be a child at some point. Just take solace in the fact you aren’t SCPandit.
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A few months ago, I actually *did* take one of your posts the wrong way because you gave me the impression of being the kind of customer who targets baby strippers and pushes them hard on boundaries in a way that I’d consider bad by *my* definition of ethics.
I’ve softened my stance on that since then and I’m not sure I believe that anymore. But given many of your posts tend to alternate drastically in tone, I can’t give a confident opinion.
I also softened on my viewpoint of you because you gave me damn good advice/perspective on another site. So if you’re feeling guilty, then feel free to keep taking it out on there lol.
My prediction is that you will feel melancholic for a few hours, and within a week you will be back to attempting whatever with the dancer. And life will go on lol.
The way you worded your post has a constant back-and-forth tension practically every few words. "I do this but this and that and only this unless that or if this but else then if but only if this and carefully this I am sure to but only if..." it's like you are constantly trying to assure us that you assure yourself that you are a good human who questions what he does. You've got an inner struggle for sure.
I've looked at lots FB accounts of girls I've done "things" with and curiosity always takes me back to their earlier life to see what they were like and everyone of them in their earlier years were "adorable" and "full of life and laughter". Of course, because who would share pictures on Facebook of their miserable times? I sense you begin to think that your influence is dark on them when in reality they ended up on their path either all on their own or because of other people you don't see in the shadows.
These girls would be doing whatever they are doing with or without you. I would be more concerned with my own well being first and unless I picked up on a belief that she landed herself into her role because she is currently being abused or forced to do something she didn't want to do, and in that case would probe and decide if I was just exacerbating problems for her.
I will give you an example, one of a few I have encountered. Years ago I met an adorable 22 yo who came over my place from a craigslist post. Intent was not sex but we ended up having sex. She had just moved to the area and didn't ask for much $ and seemed happy. We started connecting regularly and initially we pulled back on the sex but soon enough it was constant. She was just a regular girl who had regular jobs that sometimes were inconsistent and I became her fill-in for extra cash. I would sense often that she was passive about sex, and often we would just talk without any clock watching in-between our coitus.
As I got to know her I felt she came from low means and always struggled to keep positive to contrast those struggles. I began having feelings for her that I knew would never get reciprocated so eventually I cut things off. She eventually finally got into a relationship and I felt like even though I always treated her well that our entanglement kept her from moving on with normal life, yet she herself couldn't end it on her own because for her it was tied up with a dependency (money) that she really didn't need any more, it was just an attachment.
We kept in touch and now years later we are genuine friends. She is single again and always happy to hang out with me when both of us have time. For all I know she's still doing p4p somehow, but it doesn't seem to be the case. She is working on building her life, taking care of herself, and is always displaying a level of care and concern for me the best way she knows how.
The point is that at some time in her life she needed what I had, and it was only partly about money. I provided her some aspect of a foundation she was lacking and had I not been involved with her I believe she would have gone down a dark path. Ultimately I let her go when my foundation as such was now an attachment that would hold her back and since then she has flourished as a human and if she ever gave me a sense that she wanted more from me I would give it to her in an instant.
So no matter what you think, if you know you are a good human then stop questioning yourself with these girls. You are balancing out the good in their life that they don't have enough of. Use your instincts to know what influence you have over any individual girl. Sometimes girls do this because they need a comfort that needs to be fulfilled but don't want the attachments associated with it because in their life they may have experiences that associate attachment with negative outcome or if they have attachments they can't easily let them go when it's time to move on.
I have a few stories like this, sometimes I am the one letting go, sometimes the girl is the one to let go. For our times together I would reflect on the experiences later to realize that we were just fulfilling a need for each other and it's all good if we both treated each other well.
As far as the rest, there is no inconsistency with my past postings. I have always treated my "friends" with kindness and dignity and that will never change, nor in all likelihood will my urge to make such friends. Also, I have always had limits on what I will do and periods of inner conflict when things seemed to get too close to the line, which is healthy and keeps us balanced. Examples of those limits/conflict moments are included in the posts below, but most times I resist the urge to post on these topics as they often not welcome around these parts:
https://www.tuscl.net/app/discussion.php…
https://www.tuscl.net/app/discussion.php…
https://www.tuscl.net/app/discussion.php…
https://www.tuscl.net/app/discussion.php…
Papi, and speaking of 'lens of context", why is it that you so often respond to this stuff like you're an angry and bitter woman? it's also funny what bothers you - you'll dance a 500 word salsa defending a dude who posts shit about sticking his dick in the mouth of 14 year old girls, but then get all girly and dramatic over deals struck between grown men and women. your priorities and viewpoints are odd to say the least.
@Nice, when I raised the whole Christian thing, it was certainly not to imply that sex was in any way bad. It was more about how we treat other human beings in general. I may be back at it even sooner than a week from now, but I can assure you it won't be with the girls who I saw just a little too much about. My pleasure on the advice on the other site and I will admit that I sue that place to give back a bit, so to speak. Anyway, thanks for sharing your perspectives.
If all I wanted was a sex doll, I’d go to Cirilla’s and get one; it’d be cheaper.
But none of that makes posts about inner conflicts any less genuine. Only sociopaths do what many of us do with much younger girls without at least questioning it at times and/or placing limits on it that we can live with. I don't think it is such a bad thing to explore this from time to time. Unlike you, most of the members of this site actually do make it back into the private rooms when they visit Miami clubs, so maybe some of us have more to question than you do. ;)
"Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass again us."
I try, but I might not always be so good at the last part, though the same could be said for any number of folks on here... ;)
Sorry you weren't impressed by the conversation so far. I'll have to try harder to ensure that twentyfive is thoroughly impressed and entertained in this thread. I kinda' had a different objective in posting this tbh, including having a real conversation about the issue of when enough became too much as far as information goes. Some people - other than you of course - chose to share their thoughts on it. You instead chose to troll this particular thread, which I guess was a simpler approach for you. ☺
@rickdugan;
To answer your question:
Can a dancer become too humanized in a way?
I believe you are taking about your personal perception on the dancer; as you know more about her personal life. And yes you perception of who she is appear to become “too humanized” / “too close for comfort” for you to “keep her in your crosshairs”
“But none of that makes posts about inner conflicts any less genuine. Only sociopaths do what many of us do with much younger girls without at least questioning it at times and/or placing limits on it that we can live with. I don't think it is such a bad thing to explore this from time to time”
The solution to your inner conflict is simple; so you you can live with yourself.
“Let your conscience dictate your actions”
“Do justice and righteousness, and deliver from the hand of the oppressor him who has been robbed. And do no wrong or violence to the resident alien, the fatherless, and the widow, nor shed innocent blood in this place.
... But if you will not obey these words, I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that this house hall become a desolation.”
Jeremiah 22:3-5
“My brother once told me nothing someone says before the word 'but' really counts”
@25: I'd call it trolling for sure. I've been quite gracious in this thread except with you and papi, for very good reasons I would add, so your excuse for trolling is falling a bit flat.
@Papi: Point out a single thread where I talked about targeting druggies. As I have always said, I steer away from them, not to them. I don't know if you are the stupid one for making that goofy statement over and over or if I am the stupid one for continuing to respond, but there it is.
As far as single moms, sure I do. Is it your contention that they would be better of without the money to care for their kids?
Gee - what a humanitarian - wouldn't a Christian help her out w/o requiring she fuck you?
But you unknowingly are touching upon my exact dilemma. Now when I see that 24 year old girl, all those aforementioned pictures of her young years create conflicting feelings. You'd probably understand better if you were a father. This thread has never been about "altruism" but rather about conflicting feelings brought about by seeing her in a different light. Hence the title of this thread.
Here's a thought, why not take the thread at face value and make an attempt at a real response?
This thread is pretty good support for why I disagreed with that assertion.
I'd say more often than not the more I get to know about a dancer usually the more I regret getting to know her better/more-personally - seems there is often some drama in their personal lives if not a lot of drama - some PLs eat that shit up and it disturbs others.
@KG: Shit dude, that type of thing doesn't make me blink. In fact, if she was hot and didn't appear to be on drugs anymore, I'd gleefully treat that as an opportunity for a win-win gig. But as a father, seeing the girl in her braces and school team uniforms in pics taken not so many years ago makes me feel old and dirty for even thinking about it. It made me feel like I felt in the thread below:
https://www.tuscl.net/app/discussion.php…
I probably wasn't being rational then and I'm probably not being rational now, but there it is.
I also by nature have usually been attracted to older vs younger women meaning I often end-up dealing w/ more mature/experienced women that probably can often teach me a thing or ten - thus I can't say I've had those guilty-feelings or feeling like I'm taking advantage of an innocent girl - when I was a greener PL dancers' circumstances would affect me and as a green inexperienced PL I felt bad "they had to do what they had to do to make a buck" - but now I realize it's pretty-much their decision to do as they do and there really isn't much I can do about it lest I become some kinda surrogate Captain Save-A-Ho - as long as I feel I'm not coercing them and that we are both free to make our own decisions, not much I can do beyond that.
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"Rick, your problem is that you still think of what you're doing as "wrong," and this is a manifestation of the guilt you feel."
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In a sense, I think he had it pegged more than I would admit back then. I don't feel that it is wrong to do with some random girl with a troubled past who needs the money. After all, life is hard and if she has a kid to feed or bills to pay then maybe she's doing what she needs to. But it does feel wrong to do with a girl who I see as still holding young innocence and looks like she deserves better, even if that is gone now. Fuck if I know.
Anyway, I think that pistola is also right in that i need to stay away from these girls' FB accounts in the future. If I don't see this shit, then I can keep my head clear and guilt free and just proceed as I always would. But with the two I mentioned, I can't un-ring the bell.
@rick: But I suspect it goes a little further in your case. When you interact “with some random girl with a troubled past who needs the money,” you can disassociate yourself from her. But when you meet “a girl who I see as still holding young innocence and looks like she deserves better,” you see someone close to you, perhaps a sister or daughter. In that case, what you’re doing, or contemplating doing, strikes closer to home than it does with the other one.
As well, your use of the phrase “deserves better” harkens back to the quote you attributed to me, that you believe what you’re doing to be wrong, and so you feel like you’re doing to these women something they don’t deserve.
Sometimes in giving you gain more than taking.
Everyone seeks something different in their interactions with dancers. What I seek is as much entertainment as I can have with them and nothing more. I already have many responsibilities, including people I care for and help in a variety of ways. My time playing with strippers is my outlet from that. My guilt stemmed from seeing them in a similar light to those who I take care of, because they reminded me of them in certain ways, rather than those who entertain me. Yes they are human beings too, someone's daughters for sure, so I always treat them with courtesy and dignity. But at the same time what I am seeking is indeed selfish I suppose, but that's why I am paying them. Maybe when my life simplifies someday I'll view this through a different lens, but right now this is what it is, for better or for worse.
One thing that often disappoints me, especially at "down home" or "neighborhood" style clubs, is finding out just how NON-glamouros a girl is, outside the stage. Her redneck boyfriend shows up in a beat-up Ford LTD with Bondo holding the quarter-panels together; they drive off in a muffler-less roar of exhaust; and he's got no chin, a pimply face, and wears his "John Deere" baseball hat backwards. I think, "Well, she COULD HAVE had me, and I'm a danged professional with enough money to AFFORD to go to a strip club, but instead she's heading off to the trailer park with Cletus there ...". And it disappoints me, makes me remember WHY I end up at strip clubs -- because I can't land a hottie on my own WITHOUT paying for her attention, is what it feels like. It doesn't always feel like that. But when I see that she is really not pulling a full-glamor lifestyle outside the club, then no matter how glam-glam a vibe I was getting from her within the club, I will probably start feeling like a loser for having PAID for her attentions when the redneck Cletus gets them for free. (Never mind that "the sex you pay for is often cheaper than the sex you get for free," and that therefore Cletus may be having a miserable experience with this girl; I forget that part whenever feeling sorry for myself.)
So, essentially, it cuts both ways. You can get to know her "too well" and LOSE interest, or GAIN interest, depending on the person and the type of getting to know and so forth.
From my standpoint, *both* of those outcomes are good things. If I *lose* interest because of what I found out, that information is likely to be something that could have caused difficulties, drama, or even, at worst, life changing catastrophe, had I not known it.