Can a dancer become too humanized in a way?

social medias the devil. if its fucking with your head then id say dont look at her background. its a weird concept because shes not actively sharing it with you, like showing you the pictures and telling stories of her upbringing but indirectly she is sharing all of that by being your facebook friend. real life face to face interaction and connecting in person with people is great and needed for our sanity as humans. social media is generally counterproductive to that sanity, i feel.

It becomes a two way street you’re info will be getting out more than you’d like.

This is where some of you start losing me.

Seems like a cool girl, so now I am losing interest. This is not the jungle Rick. Why not just have a good time and let it go?

25, I'm using an anonymous FB account.

I think Rick is trying to rehabilitate his TUSCL image by writing this moving Hallmark Channel soon to be TV movie.

As a Christian, and as smart as you think you are, it took you 20 years and paying probably thousands of wonen for sex to now have this epiphany?

I think this is more typical Rick where it's really more about him and he wants TUSCL to know "how good a guy he is".

Yes Rick - all dancers are human - congratulations that you realize this after 20-years and paying and manipulating a 1000+ women for sex.

I personally don't buy this mea culpa confessional - I think it's typical self-serving Dugan.

This would be a golden thread for old boy Dougster to tear apart.

With a Christian philosophy in many denominations, the viewpoint is that sex for non procreating purposes is bad. It degrades males slightly, and degrades females tremendously.

As a female millennial who attended a Catholic school, but somewhere along the way did not absorb any of the teachings and left college and became a stripper, you can probably guess that my viewpoint is different than yours.

As long as you maintain your point of view, then yes you are a bona fide creep. All sex workers used to be a child at some point. Just take solace in the fact you aren’t SCPandit. —— A few months ago, I actually did take one of your posts the wrong way because you gave me the impression of being the kind of customer who targets baby strippers and pushes them hard on boundaries in a way that I’d consider bad by my definition of ethics.

I’ve softened my stance on that since then and I’m not sure I believe that anymore. But given many of your posts tend to alternate drastically in tone, I can’t give a confident opinion.

I also softened on my viewpoint of you because you gave me damn good advice/perspective on another site. So if you’re feeling guilty, then feel free to keep taking it out on there lol.

My prediction is that you will feel melancholic for a few hours, and within a week you will be back to attempting whatever with the dancer. And life will go on lol.

Tow observations for you:

The way you worded your post has a constant back-and-forth tension practically every few words. "I do this but this and that and only this unless that or if this but else then if but only if this and carefully this I am sure to but only if..." it's like you are constantly trying to assure us that you assure yourself that you are a good human who questions what he does. You've got an inner struggle for sure.

I've looked at lots FB accounts of girls I've done "things" with and curiosity always takes me back to their earlier life to see what they were like and everyone of them in their earlier years were "adorable" and "full of life and laughter". Of course, because who would share pictures on Facebook of their miserable times? I sense you begin to think that your influence is dark on them when in reality they ended up on their path either all on their own or because of other people you don't see in the shadows.

These girls would be doing whatever they are doing with or without you. I would be more concerned with my own well being first and unless I picked up on a belief that she landed herself into her role because she is currently being abused or forced to do something she didn't want to do, and in that case would probe and decide if I was just exacerbating problems for her.

I will give you an example, one of a few I have encountered. Years ago I met an adorable 22 yo who came over my place from a craigslist post. Intent was not sex but we ended up having sex. She had just moved to the area and didn't ask for much $ and seemed happy. We started connecting regularly and initially we pulled back on the sex but soon enough it was constant. She was just a regular girl who had regular jobs that sometimes were inconsistent and I became her fill-in for extra cash. I would sense often that she was passive about sex, and often we would just talk without any clock watching in-between our coitus.

As I got to know her I felt she came from low means and always struggled to keep positive to contrast those struggles. I began having feelings for her that I knew would never get reciprocated so eventually I cut things off. She eventually finally got into a relationship and I felt like even though I always treated her well that our entanglement kept her from moving on with normal life, yet she herself couldn't end it on her own because for her it was tied up with a dependency (money) that she really didn't need any more, it was just an attachment.

We kept in touch and now years later we are genuine friends. She is single again and always happy to hang out with me when both of us have time. For all I know she's still doing p4p somehow, but it doesn't seem to be the case. She is working on building her life, taking care of herself, and is always displaying a level of care and concern for me the best way she knows how.

The point is that at some time in her life she needed what I had, and it was only partly about money. I provided her some aspect of a foundation she was lacking and had I not been involved with her I believe she would have gone down a dark path. Ultimately I let her go when my foundation as such was now an attachment that would hold her back and since then she has flourished as a human and if she ever gave me a sense that she wanted more from me I would give it to her in an instant.

So no matter what you think, if you know you are a good human then stop questioning yourself with these girls. You are balancing out the good in their life that they don't have enough of. Use your instincts to know what influence you have over any individual girl. Sometimes girls do this because they need a comfort that needs to be fulfilled but don't want the attachments associated with it because in their life they may have experiences that associate attachment with negative outcome or if they have attachments they can't easily let them go when it's time to move on.

I have a few stories like this, sometimes I am the one letting go, sometimes the girl is the one to let go. For our times together I would reflect on the experiences later to realize that we were just fulfilling a need for each other and it's all good if we both treated each other well.

I'll be back in a few minutes. I have to puke.

LOL

Papi, human beings are complex creatures with a variety of drives, instincts and emotions. Sometimes these things come in conflict with one another, which is what happened here. When she is just a sexy woman trying to coax money out of me however she could, then I have no qualms about working my own angles. But when I see pics of her progressing from a childhood to today, she becomes something different. I think it is human nature to view someone through the lens of context, is it not?

As far as the rest, there is no inconsistency with my past postings. I have always treated my "friends" with kindness and dignity and that will never change, nor in all likelihood will my urge to make such friends. Also, I have always had limits on what I will do and periods of inner conflict when things seemed to get too close to the line, which is healthy and keeps us balanced. Examples of those limits/conflict moments are included in the posts below, but most times I resist the urge to post on these topics as they often not welcome around these parts:

tuscl.net tuscl.net tuscl.net tuscl.net

Papi, and speaking of 'lens of context", why is it that you so often respond to this stuff like you're an angry and bitter woman? it's also funny what bothers you - you'll dance a 500 word salsa defending a dude who posts shit about sticking his dick in the mouth of 14 year old girls, but then get all girly and dramatic over deals struck between grown men and women. your priorities and viewpoints are odd to say the least.

It's bc you are self-absorbed and a self-serving pretender/fake - everyone has short-comings but seems being a dick is something you often pride yourself in - and now you want credit for your supposed "altruism"

@Jeff, interesting observations and thanks for sharing that.

@Nice, when I raised the whole Christian thing, it was certainly not to imply that sex was in any way bad. It was more about how we treat other human beings in general. I may be back at it even sooner than a week from now, but I can assure you it won't be with the girls who I saw just a little too much about. My pleasure on the advice on the other site and I will admit that I sue that place to give back a bit, so to speak. Anyway, thanks for sharing your perspectives.

Hmmmm. I find that getting to know them often makes them more attractive, not less. It sometimes works the other way, if I find out something worrisome. Generally, however, if we’ve hit it off in the club, and I don’t think she’s faking too much, getting to know her only makes her more interesting.

If all I wanted was a sex doll, I’d go to Cirilla’s and get one; it’d be cheaper.

I don’t think we have too much to worry about with Ricky Dugan going al Christian on us it’s not like he’s gonna stop being all stiff necked, and start turning the other cheek ;)

@Papi: I'm sorry you feel that way. Yes I post bluntly more often than not, I have fun on this site at times reliving some of my club adventures and I tend to be tough on very (in my view) silly posts. I will also not stop giving shit to guys who think it's fun to demean girls 1/2 to 1/3 their age, nor will I stop giving shit to every older girly man who gets butt hurt over things that young girls say to them (whether by text or in person) and will always expect better from grown men than that. If you don't like any of that, then too fucking bad.

But none of that makes posts about inner conflicts any less genuine. Only sociopaths do what many of us do with much younger girls without at least questioning it at times and/or placing limits on it that we can live with. I don't think it is such a bad thing to explore this from time to time. Unlike you, most of the members of this site actually do make it back into the private rooms when they visit Miami clubs, so maybe some of us have more to question than you do. ;)

Zing ;)

@gmd: I hear you. I guess when I see those school aged pics it puts me in father mode rather than monger mode. We're talking about pics of the girl with her teammates on a school sports team holding up a trophy, pics of her in braces goofing off with other young kids, etc. I think I need to avoid looking too deeply into the pics and posts of these FB accounts.

@25: You may recognize the line below from a prayer you've heard in your ongoing exploration of the Christian faith. ;)

"Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass again us."

I try, but I might not always be so good at the last part, though the same could be said for any number of folks on here... ;)

that should be "against us" at the end of the prayer line, lol.

I’m not impressed by your, conversion at this point, and I enjoy busting your chops some times, but really you don’t need to make it so easy, or is it you just don’t realize how you come across, jes sayin. ;))

BTW Passover is coming up, do Christians still recite the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” at the same time as we ask the four questions?

Im actually the opposite of the OP. Im more attracted to dancers who have a "normal" life and use the money they earn dancing on normal things (e.g. kids, rent, education, savings). A big turnoff is seeing a dancer showing off the money she earns by buying flashy clothing. Like many of said its never a good idea to get too attached to dancers or research them. It ruins the fantasy. Especially when they give really good dances. All dancers have an expiration date. Just enjoy this period of thier life before they stop.

@25, when you were told the story of Pesach as a child, I'm guessing you were one of the children who asked "What is this?" ;)

Sorry you weren't impressed by the conversation so far. I'll have to try harder to ensure that twentyfive is thoroughly impressed and entertained in this thread. I kinda' had a different objective in posting this tbh, including having a real conversation about the issue of when enough became too much as far as information goes. Some people - other than you of course - chose to share their thoughts on it. You instead chose to troll this particular thread, which I guess was a simpler approach for you. ☺

I see an adult dancer doing what she has chosen for financial gain to provide for herself and hers just as I as a professional provide for mine and me. I was a child once too. I was very “innocent”. I am now an adult and choose to be less innocent. Adults play. I have no problem with such so long as both consent.

@Rick I don't know if what I was doing was so much trolling as it was pointing out the hypocrisy , or absurdity, if you will of your position, but take it the way you want, I did make a snarky remark, but you ask for them, with the smugness that you post.

I will play along;

@rickdugan;

To answer your question:

Can a dancer become too humanized in a way?

I believe you are taking about your personal perception on the dancer; as you know more about her personal life. And yes you perception of who she is appear to become “too humanized” / “too close for comfort” for you to “keep her in your crosshairs”

“But none of that makes posts about inner conflicts any less genuine. Only sociopaths do what many of us do with much younger girls without at least questioning it at times and/or placing limits on it that we can live with. I don't think it is such a bad thing to explore this from time to time”

The solution to your inner conflict is simple; so you you can live with yourself.

“Let your conscience dictate your actions”

“Do justice and righteousness, and deliver from the hand of the oppressor him who has been robbed. And do no wrong or violence to the resident alien, the fatherless, and the widow, nor shed innocent blood in this place.

... But if you will not obey these words, I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that this house hall become a desolation.”

Jeremiah 22:3-5

“My brother once told me nothing someone says before the word 'but' really counts”

Passover. Is that the one where Christians celebrate their god killing a bunch of kids because he was pissed off at their ruler?

To summarize youre pushing 50 and stalking 20 yr olds drama via FB accounts and you’re feeling weird about it. No shit birdbrain.

If there is any genuineness beyond "hey look what a great guy I am and look how much I care", it could be Dugan's conscience about purposely seeking the weakest in the herd (druggy, struggling mom, etc), and working her until she gives in, then feeling proud about what he accomplished - so yeah, "perhaps" he may feel guilty about the tactics he has often used in zeroing in on dancers with basically no other options - but I doubt this is about the dancers and it's mostly about him and his "altruism".

@pistola: Ouch, lol.

@25: I'd call it trolling for sure. I've been quite gracious in this thread except with you and papi, for very good reasons I would add, so your excuse for trolling is falling a bit flat.

@Papi: Point out a single thread where I talked about targeting druggies. As I have always said, I steer away from them, not to them. I don't know if you are the stupid one for making that goofy statement over and over or if I am the stupid one for continuing to respond, but there it is.

As far as single moms, sure I do. Is it your contention that they would be better of without the money to care for their kids?

"... As far as single moms, sure I do. Is it your contention that they would be better of without the money to care for their kids ..."

Gee - what a humanitarian - wouldn't a Christian help her out w/o requiring she fuck you?

Like I said Rick I don't care what you call it, but I pointed out a long time ago, you really never do anything without asking the question "what's in it for me?", sure as the sun will come up tomorrow, that's been your self aggrandizing theme, as long as you've been here , one year longer than me , so I guess I've been around these parts, for a while too!

You first Papi. Instead of making those big booty girls rub their asses in your crotch for whatever pleasure you get from it, just walk into the club and hand over your cash.

But you unknowingly are touching upon my exact dilemma. Now when I see that 24 year old girl, all those aforementioned pictures of her young years create conflicting feelings. You'd probably understand better if you were a father. This thread has never been about "altruism" but rather about conflicting feelings brought about by seeing her in a different light. Hence the title of this thread.

@25: Not this time, nor in the handful of other threads relating to conflicts. But I also think that was melodramatic.

Here's a thought, why not take the thread at face value and make an attempt at a real response?

Didn't somebody in another thread write that we come here for SC discussions and not flame wars?

This thread is pretty good support for why I disagreed with that assertion.

^ there is always an exception - and if there's ever an exception it's Dugan

@Rick Well actually I did make a genuine response stating that it was a two way street, but you reverted to form with the fact you were using a fake Facebook account, so at that point we all know that you were up to your normal shenanigans but hey, we don’t expect anything less from you. And as usual what’s in it for you.

I'm with NJB if my money is well spent as it becomes her money i feel good about the transaction. if she's clearly a crack whore who's going to use my money to destroy herself further i usually feel the need to excuse myself. sex work is work if the woman is free and uses the money for legit purposes i don't see a problem. i have money she has titties we live in a capitalist society game on

Never look behind the curtain. I used to think my ATF had her shit together and she was only dancing because she wanted to. Turns out she has a long criminal record, substance abuse issues, and a history of abusive boyfriends. She’s good at hiding it. But it ruins the illusion when you learn the real story.

Sometimes it can work in reverse as well. I remember one time PaulDrake posted about how he scrolled through a dancer’s social media—and realized that how she portrayed herself online on a personal account matched with what she said about herself in the club. He valued the authenticity and decided to give her more money.

"... Never look behind the curtain. I used to think my ATF had her shit together and she was only dancing because she wanted to. Turns out she has a long criminal record, substance abuse issues, and a history of abusive boyfriends ..."

I'd say more often than not the more I get to know about a dancer usually the more I regret getting to know her better/more-personally - seems there is often some drama in their personal lives if not a lot of drama - some PLs eat that shit up and it disturbs others.

@25: I have a family and own a business. Of course I'm not using a real FB account.

@KG: Shit dude, that type of thing doesn't make me blink. In fact, if she was hot and didn't appear to be on drugs anymore, I'd gleefully treat that as an opportunity for a win-win gig. But as a father, seeing the girl in her braces and school team uniforms in pics taken not so many years ago makes me feel old and dirty for even thinking about it. It made me feel like I felt in the thread below:

tuscl.net

I probably wasn't being rational then and I'm probably not being rational now, but there it is.

I'm not a big-extras guy, meaning mainly I don't have to have extras to enjoy a SC visit nor is it my main-mission going into most visits (although sometimes it is) - also not being into faves means I don't have to have 'X' girl - meaning I rarely push/try-to-convince a dancer into something she doesn't wanna do or is not comfortable doing - not b/c I walk on water like Christian Rick, part of it is not making her do something she doesn't wanna do, and part of it is b/c I feel if she's not down then it may not be that good of an encounter.

I also by nature have usually been attracted to older vs younger women meaning I often end-up dealing w/ more mature/experienced women that probably can often teach me a thing or ten - thus I can't say I've had those guilty-feelings or feeling like I'm taking advantage of an innocent girl - when I was a greener PL dancers' circumstances would affect me and as a green inexperienced PL I felt bad "they had to do what they had to do to make a buck" - but now I realize it's pretty-much their decision to do as they do and there really isn't much I can do about it lest I become some kinda surrogate Captain Save-A-Ho - as long as I feel I'm not coercing them and that we are both free to make our own decisions, not much I can do beyond that.

GMD posted something in that thread from four years ago that, in hindsight, was probably spot on and as valid today as it was then:

"Rick, your problem is that you still think of what you're doing as "wrong," and this is a manifestation of the guilt you feel."

In a sense, I think he had it pegged more than I would admit back then. I don't feel that it is wrong to do with some random girl with a troubled past who needs the money. After all, life is hard and if she has a kid to feed or bills to pay then maybe she's doing what she needs to. But it does feel wrong to do with a girl who I see as still holding young innocence and looks like she deserves better, even if that is gone now. Fuck if I know.

Anyway, I think that pistola is also right in that i need to stay away from these girls' FB accounts in the future. If I don't see this shit, then I can keep my head clear and guilt free and just proceed as I always would. But with the two I mentioned, I can't un-ring the bell.

I think part of it may be the American psyche where P4P/sex-work is seen/ingrained as an unpardonable sin - whereas in many other cultures it's just accepted that males have a particular sex-drive/need that needs to be satisfied vs repressed.

Yes - I treat them with courtesy, but they are the object of my sexual interest only - I'm not interested in them in any other way - so I like them to remain simple sex objects. Knowing too much can disrupt the fantasy.

@Papi, there is much truth in what you post.

@rick: But I suspect it goes a little further in your case. When you interact “with some random girl with a troubled past who needs the money,” you can disassociate yourself from her. But when you meet “a girl who I see as still holding young innocence and looks like she deserves better,” you see someone close to you, perhaps a sister or daughter. In that case, what you’re doing, or contemplating doing, strikes closer to home than it does with the other one.

As well, your use of the phrase “deserves better” harkens back to the quote you attributed to me, that you believe what you’re doing to be wrong, and so you feel like you’re doing to these women something they don’t deserve.

@Rick Never expected you’d use a real account buddy, the point was the sneaking around is where you’re creeping, you seem to be trying too hard to justify your behavior it doesn’t strike me as you are having any fun, seems more like just running on the hamster wheel until you finally fall apart.

25, tbh lost me there. Which behavior am I trying to justify? I'm not asking for debate purposes, but rather legitimately trying to understand the point that you making.

Not so sure that you’re gonna get it but, it’s really simple, someone offers you something in friendship and instead of reciprocating in kind, you are trying to commoditize, the offer. Now you can do what you’ve always done and take advantage of the situation or you can use the offer to grow a bit and act altruistlcly, that’s your choice to make, you seem to be feeling bad because you’re selfish, solution act unselfishly. Sometimes in giving you gain more than taking.

Ah, I see. So your theory is that this is an opportunity for personal growth and maybe a little altruism, but instead I'm squandering it on selfish pursuits. Now I was about to make a joke, but instead, in the spirit of civility, I'm going to give this a straight response.

Everyone seeks something different in their interactions with dancers. What I seek is as much entertainment as I can have with them and nothing more. I already have many responsibilities, including people I care for and help in a variety of ways. My time playing with strippers is my outlet from that. My guilt stemmed from seeing them in a similar light to those who I take care of, because they reminded me of them in certain ways, rather than those who entertain me. Yes they are human beings too, someone's daughters for sure, so I always treat them with courtesy and dignity. But at the same time what I am seeking is indeed selfish I suppose, but that's why I am paying them. Maybe when my life simplifies someday I'll view this through a different lens, but right now this is what it is, for better or for worse.

If you lift your let and fart the pressure will be off

Personally (on the real subject of the thread, and, ignoring the trolling ... if I can) I have felt similarly, that getting to know the "real" dancer can, indeed, reduce my desire for her to fulfill my desires in a more service-oriented manner. I kind of put my interest in people along a continuum, with service-contractor on one end and soul-mate on the other end. A nurse, for example, is a service-contractor. A skilled masseuse who gives a legit massage is a similar kind of service-contractor. And I kind of think of many sex workers as just another step more intimate and sexual than a personal nurse or masseuse. If she's attractive, and she's playing with my willie, for a reasonable fee, then she's essentially someone whose skills are in demand by me, and are being bought. The level of knowledge I have of her private life, and the degree of intimacy we have together, physically, are not necessarily correlated to (or independent of) one another. So, I can get to know the "real" dancer and therefore want less of a service-contractor-style relationship; or, I can get to know the "real" dancer and therefore want MORE services because I am feeling more "intimate" and interpersonally connected than I had been before learning about her.

One thing that often disappoints me, especially at "down home" or "neighborhood" style clubs, is finding out just how NON-glamouros a girl is, outside the stage. Her redneck boyfriend shows up in a beat-up Ford LTD with Bondo holding the quarter-panels together; they drive off in a muffler-less roar of exhaust; and he's got no chin, a pimply face, and wears his "John Deere" baseball hat backwards. I think, "Well, she COULD HAVE had me, and I'm a danged professional with enough money to AFFORD to go to a strip club, but instead she's heading off to the trailer park with Cletus there ...". And it disappoints me, makes me remember WHY I end up at strip clubs -- because I can't land a hottie on my own WITHOUT paying for her attention, is what it feels like. It doesn't always feel like that. But when I see that she is really not pulling a full-glamor lifestyle outside the club, then no matter how glam-glam a vibe I was getting from her within the club, I will probably start feeling like a loser for having PAID for her attentions when the redneck Cletus gets them for free. (Never mind that "the sex you pay for is often cheaper than the sex you get for free," and that therefore Cletus may be having a miserable experience with this girl; I forget that part whenever feeling sorry for myself.)

So, essentially, it cuts both ways. You can get to know her "too well" and LOSE interest, or GAIN interest, depending on the person and the type of getting to know and so forth.

@Book Guy: “You can get to know her ‘too well’ and LOSE interest, or GAIN interest, depending on the person and the type of getting to know and so forth.”

From my standpoint, both of those outcomes are good things. If I lose interest because of what I found out, that information is likely to be something that could have caused difficulties, drama, or even, at worst, life changing catastrophe, had I not known it.