Sexualization vs Objectification

I think some of us even don't think we get into objectification territory when we really do. The biggest example of this would be SJG who constantly talks about respecting and treating women like civilians, but his sexual fantasy is to have an interchangable faceless object of a woman start making out and fucking him with no words exchanged. That is objectification to the max.

Whatever name you give it, it’s essential to the entire strip club experience. By walking in the strip club door, both the dancer and customer have signed onto it, whether you call it sexualization or objectification.

I watched the video last night, albeit while doing other things as well. I remember her talking about the revenge story about her ex posing as a parent.
And also about SWERF crap. But not that part. Do you remember where in the video I should zoom in on for the sexualization versus objectification specifically?

I think you and several other board members here have a good idea about my actual personality.

But when I’m working, I usually switch between two personas:

1) nursing student
2) coked up party girl
...and other random personalities that I don’t use as often or I just try out.

(Fun fact, the second persona made me how easy it would be to sell expensive cabanas if I actually had coke on me. Customers would ask me for it. I toyed with the idea at one point, but I’m too much of a chicken shit to ever follow through.)

So in a way, I play into being an object as well. Except I can control what object I want to be.

In your case, PaulDrake, you seem to have an easygoing nature about you. You had no problem speaking about your CF in a way that lacks judgement on her hippie lifestyle, even though you wouldn’t do the same.

I think over time, this potential CF would realize that the over the top nature is probably not that necessary. Maybe just crack a few jokes here and there. Or even just directly say “can I have the girlfriend experience today”

I understand there are differences, but I think strip clubs are more about sexualization of the dancers. The customers are largely objectified - as they are viewed as walking ATM’s - only there to dispense cash to the dancers.

I have a fuck buddy who loves being objectified. It was odd at first - but after using her several times - it became highly arousing - possibly because we would discuss it afterwards while she sucked my cock. She loved the idea of her body being viewed as just a hole.

So my comment about SJG is not meant as a dig, more to show that we can all see objectification in others but not as easily in ourselves.

@nicespice - There are definitely dancers who don't seem to mind being objectified and those who like you don't mind if they are in control of it and getting rich off of it.

PaulDrake - that’s an interesting point regarding SJG. I had been thinking that his mantra of treating dancers like civilians - was because he viewed them as civilians.

Now, I’ve rethought it, and maybe he only treats them as civilians so he can get them and use them as objects.

SJG might be more manipulative than I thought!

I suppose I don’t see objectifying as a big deal because I think it’s inescapable, no matter what.

I went to a school event done by the career center. One of the topics there is “how to craft your elevator pitch”—which in my mind is the art of making yourself a convenient object in 25 seconds for a potential employer.

Objectifying happens because it’s a way to avoid information overload when dealing with any situation. I can’t fault anyone for it and I know I’ve done it as well.

Now, the part, imo, where it *does* become a problem is the assumption some have that “because this individual is object x, it’s okay to treat them as y”

SJG case: *because* strippers are just civilians, it’s okay to just approach them and DFK them.

In cashman’s case: it just seems like fun role playing.

@nicespice - You basically came on a strip club customer site and basically "won" the forum way more than any other dancer before and probably after. So it's no surprise you aren't bothered by a little objectification.

When I saw this topic I first thought that I accidentally logged into SW instead. Sadly that was not the case.

Guys go to strip clubs in order to see and interact with sexually attractive women. Women work there to profit off of those desires in whatever way they can do so. Simple. All the labeling and re-defining exercises in the world won't change those simple basic realities.

Now yes, it would seem that some dancers need to go through these mental gymnastics in order to rationalize their behavior to themselves and others. All power to them I suppose. But in the rare instances where I meet one of these types my motto is "run, don't walk, to the nearest exit" as it triggers my headcase klaxon alarm. IME, dancers who need these elaborate rationalizations and feelings of empowerment to be ok with what they do are often low on the ROI scale and high on the potential drama scale.

@rickdugan - So do you like the "living giggling sex doll" type strippers?

Paul, are you suggesting that they are my only other option besides headcases like the one in the video?

In my (cynical) opinion. Rick prefers strippers authentic, because he likes to know what he’s working with when he is lowballing them.

And he also has a serious madonna/whore complex. So he can enjoy being occasionally less ethical too as long as they aren’t people from his leafly neighborhood.

Nicespice, are "authentic" strippers always easy and cheap in your view?

"... When I saw this topic I first thought that I accidentally logged into SW instead ..."

Bingo.

Seems TUSCL is becoming a little too-pink lately - some of these guys turning/wanting-to-turn their CFs into pseudo S.O.s and trying to have some type of deep meaningful if not "genuine" relationship w/ someone they are paying; personally makes me cringe when I read it and often comes across as misinformed and/or delusional about what it really is.

The PL/stripper interaction is $$$ for attention - IMO no need to find 10 different ways to describe or think that it's anything more than business except in some rare cases - seems to md many PLs try emphatically to convince themselves and others that it's more than just a business transaction, where each party is just seeking what they want/need - i.e. take the $$$ away and there is no "relationship".

Rick makes a good point. It can be tedious to have a simple chat with a dancer who needs to define her role in her life as a stripper.

This is the type of dancer who gets offended when you don’t refer to her as an exotic entertainer. You ask her how long she’s been stripping - and you get a lecture about how she’s selling a fantasy based on her costumed dances - when you just want to see her tits.

Nothing wrong with a cheap and easy stripper. If you add a tinge of desperation - and a tendency to make poor decisions - I’d be very interested!

^Amen brotha. I may have to take a break because the estrogen levels are off the charts.

And just in general it's never lowballing if one party ultimately agrees... That's called a negotiation.

*amen directed at Papi Chulo

In the "real world" it's common for women to fall for guys - but in all my years of reading TUSCL and occasionally SW, I don't recall a dancer "struggling" b/c she kept "catching feelings" for her custies - yet in strip-club bizarro-world seems PLs falling-in-love w/ their faves are a dime-a-dozen - seems to me there is an obvious mismatch there b/w dancers and PLs on how they see things.

^^
I see it as more guys wanting that emotional connection than most are willing to believe or admit.

When I read this, I was like awwww, shit, I hope this motherfucker don't run into SJG's privacy wall.

Sexualizing a woman who is there to be admired is a beautiful thing, though, according to SJG 1:3

I just show her my heart and let her set the rates accordingly.

Nothing wrong with it, hell I love feeling that connection with my ATF, but I also know her reciprocating ends when I leave.

"Now, the part, imo, where it *does* become a problem is the assumption some have that “because this individual is object x, it’s okay to treat them as y”...

I personally think Nicespice is reaching here here and wait out in left field. The majority of SC customers are respectful toward strippers. Strippers tend to have a chip on their shoulders and tend to take comments as a dig or negative way.

Thats why as men we have to word things differently to get what you want.

For example:
Instead of asking her "how much for pussy?"

say this instead: "I pay for pussy"

of course i have never tried this and cant tell you which one works better.

Speaking of SJG, this is my jam: https://youtu.be/D8K90hX4PrE

Wow people overthink much? People are people and if you treat them all the same and by that I mean with courtesy and decency you don't need to think about your interactions with other human beings anywhere. Do I think the dancers I spend time with like me? Yup, within the context of a paid relationship. Do I like them? Yup, within the context of the paid relationship. I never ask them about their job, other customers or their personal lives. We sit, chat, have a cocktail, a few laughs and retire to the CR for some good fun. A hug a kiss on the cheek and they go on to another customer and I get in my car, open the sun roof and get high on the drive.

“are "authentic" strippers always easy and cheap in your view?”

Not always. The ones I can can think of otherwise are the truly brutal hustlers. They are demanding and dramatic. And they can grab big amounts from a small number of customers.

And they are like that in their personal life as well. A lot of strippers front as if they are that type. But only a tiny amount actually are.

For the rest of us, a persona is good. Not only for the customer, who wants to be entertained by a certain personality. But also for the dancer, to make the job easier and more fun. And to avoid getting taken advantage of.
—
And as far as the tone on the board...it’s ultimately up to founder to define it. And since one of the taglines is “where every four out of five posts on here is a Juice troll”, it’s unlikely to change.

Strippers have their own secret Facebook groups to keep the boys out. I’m part of two of those groups. Only friends can add each other, and the admin has to approve it. There are options out there if you guys want alternatives.

So, I was thinking about the SLD perspective, and I'm going to amend my previous statement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLojMGNE…

Paul thinks that there is a real difference between the "living giggling sex doll" in his little tale and the girl in the video, but they both suffer from the same afflictions of defensiveness and emotional weakness. The only difference is in how it manifests. The giggling sex doll girl needs that outlandish persona to cope with what she does, while the "empowered" girl needs to rationalize her choices with labels and by seek out another herd to fold into. Same underlying problems, but with different emotional crutches.

I'll take option C thanks, which are the down-to-earth and naturally unapologetic girls. They are more easily able to deal with guys naturally and have a more nuanced understanding of what guys enjoy. These are the fun girls, sometimes including the dangerous ones who are adept at running romance and other hustles. Some are indeed cheap and easy, while others are much less so, but either way they tend to be more fun to deal with ITC.

But with that said, if Paul wants to seek out girls who are stuck in their own heads and fixating on concepts like objectification, sexual empowerment, etc., then it's his dime and time. ;)

I think most of us on-here accept that dancers are often gonna have a different POV and see things differently - I think some of us that cringe is mainly w.r.t. the RIL PLs

Sounds like Paul Drake has been hanging out on Stripper Web.

With some of our core group of underground circuit Latina's you won't be around them and not be DFKing them.

It is possible at some events to walk up to a girl you have never spoken with before and just DFK her. At some kinds of events.

In a strip club, if a girl is sitting with you, generally lacking external restraints, depending on how you are talking to her, DFKing here is not that difficult.

Paul Drake, you really are a fuck head, everything you post is some kind of high brow head trip.

SJG

@salty “The majority of SC customers are respectful toward strippers. Strippers tend to have a chip on their shoulders and tend to take comments as a dig or negative way.”

Oh, I agree about SC customers in general. Now from you personally, when you have come after me and Nina multiple times? Eh...no.

rickdugan, shut the fuck up. You're ruining our bromosexuality! RickTheVelociraptor is going to peck your eyes out now.

Shit, I had to Google bromosexuality. Kinda' disturbing tbh. ;)

> I think way more guys want an emotional connection than people act like is the case.

This is total bullshit. If you treat her like a civilian and rape her in the nose, you will be able to wake up next to her in a couple of decades and talk to her about your grandchildren.

"from you personally, when you have come after me and Nina multiple times? Eh...no."

nicespice...Disagreeing with you on a discussion board is not coming at you. The only personal attack was me calling nina an uncle tom for acting like a coon....thats all i can recall.

This is why rick is right and its best to run toward the exits.

Ah. Maybe this thread has created a certain viewpoint about PaulDrake. That viewpoint being that he is going along with some of the angry feminist type of strippers.

As someone who has personally met the guy, maybe I can explain it a little better. And of course Paul can correct me if I say anything wrong.

PaulDrake is a very analytical and observant type of person. He had studied some branch of physics before. Not for school/work. But just because when he gets into a subject, he wants to know everything.

He has timed the average song length at different strip clubs. He actually favors one particular club over another one not too far away because of the longer average song length for the same dance price.

In addition, he is happily married but enjoys his LDKs. He’s not interested in becoming seriously involved in any dancer’s life. But just because he likes his LDKs, he also wants to further understand things. I like to think of myself as analytical person, but this guy runs laps around me on this.

Paul Drake wants to make an earnest observation about how people are. And maybe have debates. Not complain about how customers are.

Finally, of course we "objectify" a bit if we have to use that term. These girls work in strip clubs, lol. A girl could have the compassion of Mother Teresa, the courage of Rosa Parks and the intellect of Marie Curie, but in many clubs she'd still go home broke if she was an unappealing pig. Looks are not the only metric that many of us use when judging a woman in a club, but they are an important starting point.

I'm not sure how this even becomes a point of debate on a board like this, but here we are I suppose. ☺

> nina an uncle tom for acting like a coon

This is hot. I wish my uncle tom were more like NinaBambina. I would have the cash for fuckloads more private dances without the psychiatrist bills.

Paul Drake is creepy and moralistic.

SJG

I think it may have to do w/ experience to perhaps a fairy large extent.

Seems younger-guys may be more prone to wanting/seeking relationships/significant-others, vs older guys that perhaps been there done that and are not necessarily looking for relationships/S.O.s IRL, so they are less prone to be RILs since there are not looking-for/wanting a S.O. to begin with.

Also in the context of experience, seems the PLs that have been at the SC game much longer (many years) have seen too much to see it as anything other than busine$$.

These points are not meant to be universal nor irrefutable, just observations/assumptions.

w.r.t the title, it seems there has been a fairly-big demasculinization of America in the last couple of decades where male sexual desire is made to be "wrong" at some level and/or "dangerous".

Males are wired to desire females - one sees it in the animal-kingdom e.g. the male-tiger is always looking to fuck the female tiger - is the male tiger thus "objectifying her".

I think the problem with objectification is it can lead to solipsism and at that point the object has no value and can be treated in any way or manner in which you desire. That can be dangerous and the loss of humanity for both parties can lead to behaviors that simply are not acceptable. I must admit, at times the misogyny on this site is excessive but I understand that it is in large part due to the nature of the site in and of it self. I highly doubt most members are as abrupt and brusque as they seemed to be on the site. I know that I attend strip clubs to in essence to objectify women and see them for their beauty. However I try not to lose sight of the fact that they are still human beings. Hopefully they see me as more than a wallet, but if they don't I must be prepared for that objectification on their part just as they must be prepared for my objectification of them

Anyone who falls in love with someone they pay to spend time with them should understand that they are in lust, not love. Give me a couple that is super hot for each other and I see $$$$$. Give me a couple that are friends and I will never see a dime. Nothing makes a divorce lawyer happier than seeing people base a relationship on sex and passion.

I love boobies!

@rickdugan - I have way less of a bleeding heart than what you are obviously thinking. I like interesting intellectual discussions. And from decades of experience on other forums I know the most interesting forum threads need some controversy. Sorry if you don't like this thread but I think it has been super successful. You have personally brought up 2 points which I would have never thought of before:

1. The idea that "empowered" strippers and "giggling sex dolls" are opposite sides of the same coin is pretty brilliant and I can see a lot of truth to that.
2. The idea that an "empowered" stripper is a signal that they will give worse experience. I can see that being true in many parts of the country. However where I live the mileage I want is readily available. I do think there is further truth that you have to deal with "empowered" strippers differently. I am sort of the "angry lesbian stripper whisperer".

One thing that continually surprises me on this forum is anytime I don't like something (in this case "giggling sex dolls") someone else loves that shit.

@nicespice - Thanks for backing me up #teamcocktailsauce

> I like interesting intellectual discussions. And from decades of experience on other forums I know the most interesting forum threads need some controversy. Sorry if you don't like this thread but I think it has been super successful. You have personally brought up 2 points which I would have never thought of before:

The homo is getting pretty thick in here, but

> I like interesting intellectual discussions. And from decades of experience on other forums I know the most interesting forum threads need some controversy. Sorry if you don't like this thread but I think it has been super successful. You have personally brought up 2 points which I would have never thought of before:

I don't care if he likes to say the word "brilliant", I like dachshunds and have an unquenchable thirst

> @nicespice - Thanks for backing me up #teamcock @nicespice - Thanks for backing me up #teamcocktailsauce

Fuck ballsamic vinwardgrette

if you know what I am saying.

SJG said "Paul Drake, you really are a fuck head, everything you post is some kind of high brow head trip."

Says the nitwit who created an entire threads about legacy programing languages, physics texts, and hand-held calculators.

SJG said "Paul Drake is creepy and moralistic."

lol

First dancer that says 'It's $20 per song for me to make your dick hard and you to objectify me for 3 minutes' is gonna get some $20 bills.

TUSCL users said: "I hate this type of thread on TUSCL. I hate it so much that I'll keep posting to it!"

Anywho ... some dancers definitely adopt a thick sex doll act. I always assume that it's because they really don't want to give the customer access to anything even vaguely attached to their real personality. That's cool. It's not like I'm anxious to give out my work or home address to every dancer I meet. We all set boundaries. Other dancers try to connect with their customers; get to know them a bit. I assume that they're trying to fulfill something closer to a girlfriend / date fantasy, albeit a girlfriend wearing 1/10th of a yard of clothing. Anyway, that's also cool. I like a bit of chit-chat, when I'm in the mood.

Regardless, there are nights when I'm all about the sex doll who wants to be objectified, and there's nights when I want to spend some time talking before getting dances. The critical thing is that I see it *all* as theater. Theater with boobies and a boner, but theater nonetheless. The point is that the show is over the moment I leave.

As long as there's consent, and no one gets hurt, I don't mind objectifying strippers who obviously capitalize on that as part of their hustle. But I would never let that behavior bleed outside the walls of the strip club. Because ... you know ... it's theater.

The guys (and dancers) who don't get that are the ones setting themselves up for problems and drama.

" ... I see it *all* as theater. Theater with boobies and a boner, but theater nonetheless. The point is that the show is over the moment I leave ..."

That needs to be added to the TUSCL tagline!

I think it was Nina Mambina who once posted:

"well - getting ready to head to the club to go sell my dignity"


LOL - Ace!

IDK Paul. Thanks for the kind words and all, but thise whole conversation was so weirdly feminist that I felt compelled to arrange to bend a girl over a bed tonight so that I could fuck away the eunich vibe. But don't worry, while I'm pounding her and smacking her ass like the bad girl that she is, I'll be sure to sprinkle in some positive affirmations letting her know that I value her as a person. ;)

I think Paul has convinced me - next time I leave a creampie on stripper's face I'll also leave a single red-rose on top of the creampie - awwww

:)

"getting ready to head to the club to go sell my dignity"

Strippers sell their dignity and PL give away their shame.

I like working with whatever persona she has to offer. I go by a simple formula: if she's giving me a boner she's doing it right. And since I am so looks and body oriented I am going to be turned on by that alone to the point that I'm good with any type of persona as long as she's doing some form of stimulation on my dick.

But ultimately if I had to choose a persona and dance/mileage style that makes me LDK the easiest I would say it is a slow and sensual sumbissive 'sex doll'. When she submits herself to my control and allows me to grind my cock in any way I like and pretends to enjoy it is when LDKing is easiest and best. In her own way, all four of my faves know that this is how I LDK the best and have all, again in their own individual ways, adjusted their dances to accommodate that for me. But still they have variety from being a pure sex doll for me or giving me a more 'lovemaking' fantasy fuck. My backup CF is like the former persona and my ATF DS is like the latter.

Also I do enjoy a lot of GFE dick teasing at the bar or tables prior to any dances. But again it is all about giving me a boner. If she has to pretend that I'm a big dick porn stud or that I'm her boyfriend and she's horny it is all good to me.

So ultimately I'm good with it being "objectifying" but honestly the discussion is splitting hairs in my book plus the line between sexual and objectifying is going to vary by individual. It's all a fun act to me so I just go with it and give my 'pretend' horny stud persona back to her.

So I found where she finally talked about objectifying. It was towards the end it was this. I think she said she was quoting the American Psychological Association.

*1. A person’s value comes only from his or her sexual appeal or behavior, to the exclusion of other characteristics.

My take: I understand in my job, why it would be fair for me to be judged that way. My purpose there is to entertain.

Now if say, the dude judges a coworker based on looks instead of performance, then that’s a problem. But I personally have no way of knowing for sure how a guy behaves outside the club.

*2. A person is held to a standard that equates physical attractiveness (narrowly defined) with being sexy.

My take: another thing that is what it is. It doesn’t bother me when it’s about things like fat or boob size.

I do feel guilty though, when it’s things that aren’t controllable. I used to scroll to tumblr a lot. There would be a bunch of blog posts from black dancers that complained that stripping for them meant hustling twice as hard for half as much as white dancers.

*3. A person is made into a thing for others’ sexual use, rather than seen as a person with the capacity for independent action and decision making.

My take: ToyChaser comes to mind. I agree.

*4. Sexuality is inappropriately imposed on a person.

This is true for the most part. Though I can’t give a hard and fast yes on this. Mostly because I think culture has something to do with defining what’s appropriate.

A lot of dancers don’t care for a lot of Mexican customers. Or Indian. Because many like to constantly try to lick nipples and grab the crotch. Not even talking VIP, but on the floor.

So a lot of the time, my dances with these type end up with constant position changing to avoid it. So they are getting overall shittier dances if they didn’t keep trying.

But they often buy multiple dances despite the shittier experience! And I know they aren’t stupid. They know that if I keep resisting their advances, allowing more is not going to happen.

If I was still a baby stripper, I’d probably say the behavior is “inappropriately imposed.” But now, I don’t really think so. I guess it’s because I know what I’m getting into now and know how to manage it. They have a thrill of the chase fantasy that I go along with. And at the end of (usually multiple) songs, both parties are happy enough.

Maybe we should mention the objectification of customers - if we are going to get all worked up over objectified dancers?

It’s a bit ridiculous to hear that it’s wrong to objectify a dancer - or sexualize her - when that same dancer only views the customer for his money!

As customers - we know that’s how we are viewed - and yet we are able to continue returning to the clubs. This is one of those emotional attempts by dancers to gain sympathy - but to not see both sides of the interaction.

How many times do dancers tell us - I do it for the money? That implies the interaction with the customer is an objectifying transaction as they don’t view us as people but wallets.

I don’t give a shit - as long as I can objectify the dancer and get off. The dancers complaints that she wasn’t treated like “the beautiful, empowered, woman that she is” fall on deaf ears.

I feel so used all strippers want me for is my money, does that make me an object? ;)

Yes! You are being horribly objectified!

I feel your pain! Lol!

See - it’s not as bad as the dancers make it seem.

I already disagreed with the idea of objectification earlier but I’m going to play devil’s advocate.

The fine between sexualization and objectification is analogous to the fine line between asking for tips and ROB behavior.

Underlying buzzwords like objectification and sexualization, plus a lot of others in the video, is the modern victim culture. There is a large segment of the population that is competing to claim the moral high ground by claiming victimhood from a range of “isms”. The tone of the video seems to be a moral smugness, looking down her nose at people who are different from her. She volunteers ! She marches for good causes ! She is woke !

Look, stripping is a job. It is not a morality play.

@steeldog65 posted: "I think the problem with objectification is it can lead to solipsism and at that point the object has no value and can be treated in any way or manner in which you desire"

^^^I think that's the one type we associate with over the top misogyny.

^The other type of objectification: her looks, how she dances is basically how strip clubs function.

^There is OK to objectify the dancers and her us. In a lot of cases we are concerned about her from the neck up. And if we are, we aren't concerned about her mind or who she is as much. Some PLs here are, but I don't have that luxury of time so I just ogle her tits and stuff singles in her g-string. And I enjoy the rest of the sexually charged environment inside. That's objectification and how strip clubs are supposed to work, no?

@DC9428 posted: "I don't know, the word "objectify" mostly just seems like a buzzword to me that feminists use to say that men shouldn't look at girls and often involves complaining about any media featuring a scantily clad girl or about men looking at attractive girls out in public."

@DC9428 posted: "[It should not demonize] a heterosexual man with normal desires. If you play along with the definition then you legitimize it and give SWERF feminists an excuse to demonize men."

^^^I go along with this as well. I think today we're going bonkers over consent. It started from a good place (earlier generations) about boundaries then went off the rails at some point.

@angry feminist: "It's great that you don't think there's any misogyny in your world, but I think if you talked to these men for long enough you'd find there were some pretty sinister ideas about women buried somewhere beneath the surface."

^^^Which is where some women are today. They think that men "are either genetically or socially conditioned to be evil." So if they believe that, who wonder men are mis-interpreted, and no longer feminism is in some cases about equality.

An optimist thinks the glass in half full.
A pessimist thinks the glass in half empty.
A feminist thinks the glass is raping her.

Jackslash for the win! Lol! Well said.

this discussion is over my head. especially in my hangover haze. some good conversation.

a pull quote:
"Looks are not the only metric that many of us use when judging a woman in a club, but they are an important starting point."

I would scratch out the third word. 'not'

Some things in life are gender symmetric. Most things need to be this way.

But if you want sex, then they have to be gender complementary. Strip clubs are the epitome of this.

So sexualization and objectification are the understood ground rules.

We have problems when guys bring the rules of gender complementarity into places which need to be symmetric.

Donald Trump is someone who often makes this mistake.

SJG

My book recommendations to Dominic77, at the tail end, and then about Path of Least Resistance. Both speak to issues Nicole raised on her earlier thread. Some say Path of Least Resistance is really about The Prodigal Son.
https://www.tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=…

TeX, anyone have any experience using this? Mathematical notation is quite complex, and historically computers have fallen way short.

https://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/…

also now getting:
FORTH : the fourth-generation language / Steve Burnap. (1986)

Steely Dan Live 2006 Charlotte - HQ video ( really good! )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQXobc4A…

Unapologetic: A Black, Queer, and Feminist Mandate for Radical Movements
https://www.amazon.com/Unapologetic-Femi….

From the Grassroots to the Ballot Box: How Gubernatorial Candidate Andrew Gillum Won in Florida
https://www.democracynow.org/2018/8/30/f…

It's also the same thing with actual fucking in real life. Sometimes you want to make love and please each other when you fuck and then sometimes you want to fuck a woman like a sex doll and moreover sometimes it is all within the same fuck. The hottest words a woman has ever said to me in bed is "you can do whatever you want with me" which is predicated by her already getting her brains fucked out from more mutually passionate sex. So basically she's asking to be treated like a fuck doll and to me that is hot as fuck.

@PaulDrake I forgot to ask, what specifically did she do that made it seem gross to you?

@sirLDA - I think she was legit a little mentally retarded, and also had a speech impediment so that made it worse. So that plus being on the young side and acting like a giggling sex doll. So that whole package.

@rickdugan - So my ATF is a total ROB, like goes to guys hotel for OTC with no intention of doing anything other than taking the money (at some point I'll type up an article about deep insight into the mind of a ROB and why she's my ATF). However it is a weird thought to think that she would/could never ROB either you or myself but for massively different reasons.