Sexualization vs Objectification
PaulDrake
Off again on again PL
A while back I came across a potential new CF who I really liked. Super hot and happens to do the unique style of lap dance that I like. However after leaving I felt a little gross about the interaction. The problem was this girl is one of those dancers who basically acts like a 2 dimensional, living, breathing sex doll. Initially I thought the girl would still be a potential fav candidate I just wouldn't have much conversation, but over time I think there is more to the gross feeling I got with her.
My ultimate stripper crush Tiyana recently put out a video where she talks about the difference between sexualization versus objectification: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEqMQRRc…
The idea being that sexualization is OK and objectification is not. I think the line between the two can be pretty blurry in a strip club, with a lot of times the script being almost the same.
I know there are guys here that really enjoy treating strippers like objects and like the living sex doll type personality. There are a lot of dancers who even play into that and general misogyny.
My ultimate stripper crush Tiyana recently put out a video where she talks about the difference between sexualization versus objectification: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEqMQRRc…
The idea being that sexualization is OK and objectification is not. I think the line between the two can be pretty blurry in a strip club, with a lot of times the script being almost the same.
I know there are guys here that really enjoy treating strippers like objects and like the living sex doll type personality. There are a lot of dancers who even play into that and general misogyny.
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And also about SWERF crap. But not that part. Do you remember where in the video I should zoom in on for the sexualization versus objectification specifically?
I think you and several other board members here have a good idea about my actual personality.
But when I’m working, I usually switch between two personas:
1) nursing student
2) coked up party girl
...and other random personalities that I don’t use as often or I just try out.
(Fun fact, the second persona made me how easy it would be to sell expensive cabanas if I actually had coke on me. Customers would ask me for it. I toyed with the idea at one point, but I’m too much of a chicken shit to ever follow through.)
So in a way, I play into being an object as well. Except I can control what object I want to be.
In your case, PaulDrake, you seem to have an easygoing nature about you. You had no problem speaking about your CF in a way that lacks judgement on her hippie lifestyle, even though you wouldn’t do the same.
I think over time, this potential CF would realize that the over the top nature is probably not that necessary. Maybe just crack a few jokes here and there. Or even just directly say “can I have the girlfriend experience today”
I have a fuck buddy who loves being objectified. It was odd at first - but after using her several times - it became highly arousing - possibly because we would discuss it afterwards while she sucked my cock. She loved the idea of her body being viewed as just a hole.
@nicespice - There are definitely dancers who don't seem to mind being objectified and those who like you don't mind if they are in control of it and getting rich off of it.
Now, I’ve rethought it, and maybe he only treats them as civilians so he can get them and use them as objects.
SJG might be more manipulative than I thought!
I went to a school event done by the career center. One of the topics there is “how to craft your elevator pitch”—which in my mind is the art of making yourself a convenient object in 25 seconds for a potential employer.
Objectifying happens because it’s a way to avoid information overload when dealing with any situation. I can’t fault anyone for it and I know I’ve done it as well.
Now, the part, imo, where it *does* become a problem is the assumption some have that “because this individual is object x, it’s okay to treat them as y”
SJG case: *because* strippers are just civilians, it’s okay to just approach them and DFK them.
Guys go to strip clubs in order to see and interact with sexually attractive women. Women work there to profit off of those desires in whatever way they can do so. Simple. All the labeling and re-defining exercises in the world won't change those simple basic realities.
Now yes, it would seem that some dancers need to go through these mental gymnastics in order to rationalize their behavior to themselves and others. All power to them I suppose. But in the rare instances where I meet one of these types my motto is "run, don't walk, to the nearest exit" as it triggers my headcase klaxon alarm. IME, dancers who need these elaborate rationalizations and feelings of empowerment to be ok with what they do are often low on the ROI scale and high on the potential drama scale.
And he also has a serious madonna/whore complex. So he can enjoy being occasionally less ethical too as long as they aren’t people from his leafly neighborhood.
Bingo.
Seems TUSCL is becoming a little too-pink lately - some of these guys turning/wanting-to-turn their CFs into pseudo S.O.s and trying to have some type of deep meaningful if not "genuine" relationship w/ someone they are paying; personally makes me cringe when I read it and often comes across as misinformed and/or delusional about what it really is.
The PL/stripper interaction is $$$ for attention - IMO no need to find 10 different ways to describe or think that it's anything more than business except in some rare cases - seems to md many PLs try emphatically to convince themselves and others that it's more than just a business transaction, where each party is just seeking what they want/need - i.e. take the $$$ away and there is no "relationship".
This is the type of dancer who gets offended when you don’t refer to her as an exotic entertainer. You ask her how long she’s been stripping - and you get a lecture about how she’s selling a fantasy based on her costumed dances - when you just want to see her tits.
Nothing wrong with a cheap and easy stripper. If you add a tinge of desperation - and a tendency to make poor decisions - I’d be very interested!
And just in general it's never lowballing if one party ultimately agrees... That's called a negotiation.
I see it as more guys wanting that emotional connection than most are willing to believe or admit.
Sexualizing a woman who is there to be admired is a beautiful thing, though, according to SJG 1:3
I just show her my heart and let her set the rates accordingly.
I personally think Nicespice is reaching here here and wait out in left field. The majority of SC customers are respectful toward strippers. Strippers tend to have a chip on their shoulders and tend to take comments as a dig or negative way.
Thats why as men we have to word things differently to get what you want.
For example:
Instead of asking her "how much for pussy?"
say this instead: "I pay for pussy"
of course i have never tried this and cant tell you which one works better.
Not always. The ones I can can think of otherwise are the truly brutal hustlers. They are demanding and dramatic. And they can grab big amounts from a small number of customers.
And they are like that in their personal life as well. A lot of strippers front as if they are that type. But only a tiny amount actually are.
For the rest of us, a persona is good. Not only for the customer, who wants to be entertained by a certain personality. But also for the dancer, to make the job easier and more fun. And to avoid getting taken advantage of.
—
And as far as the tone on the board...it’s ultimately up to founder to define it. And since one of the taglines is “where every four out of five posts on here is a Juice troll”, it’s unlikely to change.
Strippers have their own secret Facebook groups to keep the boys out. I’m part of two of those groups. Only friends can add each other, and the admin has to approve it. There are options out there if you guys want alternatives.
I'll take option C thanks, which are the down-to-earth and naturally unapologetic girls. They are more easily able to deal with guys naturally and have a more nuanced understanding of what guys enjoy. These are the fun girls, sometimes including the dangerous ones who are adept at running romance and other hustles. Some are indeed cheap and easy, while others are much less so, but either way they tend to be more fun to deal with ITC.
But with that said, if Paul wants to seek out girls who are stuck in their own heads and fixating on concepts like objectification, sexual empowerment, etc., then it's his dime and time. ;)
With some of our core group of underground circuit Latina's you won't be around them and not be DFKing them.
It is possible at some events to walk up to a girl you have never spoken with before and just DFK her. At some kinds of events.
In a strip club, if a girl is sitting with you, generally lacking external restraints, depending on how you are talking to her, DFKing here is not that difficult.
Paul Drake, you really are a fuck head, everything you post is some kind of high brow head trip.
SJG
Oh, I agree about SC customers in general. Now from you personally, when you have come after me and Nina multiple times? Eh...no.
This is total bullshit. If you treat her like a civilian and rape her in the nose, you will be able to wake up next to her in a couple of decades and talk to her about your grandchildren.
nicespice...Disagreeing with you on a discussion board is not coming at you. The only personal attack was me calling nina an uncle tom for acting like a coon....thats all i can recall.
This is why rick is right and its best to run toward the exits.
As someone who has personally met the guy, maybe I can explain it a little better. And of course Paul can correct me if I say anything wrong.
PaulDrake is a very analytical and observant type of person. He had studied some branch of physics before. Not for school/work. But just because when he gets into a subject, he wants to know everything.
He has timed the average song length at different strip clubs. He actually favors one particular club over another one not too far away because of the longer average song length for the same dance price.
In addition, he is happily married but enjoys his LDKs. He’s not interested in becoming seriously involved in any dancer’s life. But just because he likes his LDKs, he also wants to further understand things. I like to think of myself as analytical person, but this guy runs laps around me on this.
Paul Drake wants to make an earnest observation about how people are. And maybe have debates. Not complain about how customers are.
I'm not sure how this even becomes a point of debate on a board like this, but here we are I suppose. ☺
This is hot. I wish my uncle tom were more like NinaBambina. I would have the cash for fuckloads more private dances without the psychiatrist bills.
SJG
Seems younger-guys may be more prone to wanting/seeking relationships/significant-others, vs older guys that perhaps been there done that and are not necessarily looking for relationships/S.O.s IRL, so they are less prone to be RILs since there are not looking-for/wanting a S.O. to begin with.
Also in the context of experience, seems the PLs that have been at the SC game much longer (many years) have seen too much to see it as anything other than busine$$.
These points are not meant to be universal nor irrefutable, just observations/assumptions.
Males are wired to desire females - one sees it in the animal-kingdom e.g. the male-tiger is always looking to fuck the female tiger - is the male tiger thus "objectifying her".
1. The idea that "empowered" strippers and "giggling sex dolls" are opposite sides of the same coin is pretty brilliant and I can see a lot of truth to that.
2. The idea that an "empowered" stripper is a signal that they will give worse experience. I can see that being true in many parts of the country. However where I live the mileage I want is readily available. I do think there is further truth that you have to deal with "empowered" strippers differently. I am sort of the "angry lesbian stripper whisperer".
One thing that continually surprises me on this forum is anytime I don't like something (in this case "giggling sex dolls") someone else loves that shit.
@nicespice - Thanks for backing me up #teamcocktailsauce
The homo is getting pretty thick in here, but
> I like interesting intellectual discussions. And from decades of experience on other forums I know the most interesting forum threads need some controversy. Sorry if you don't like this thread but I think it has been super successful. You have personally brought up 2 points which I would have never thought of before:
I don't care if he likes to say the word "brilliant", I like dachshunds and have an unquenchable thirst
> @nicespice - Thanks for backing me up #teamcock @nicespice - Thanks for backing me up #teamcocktailsauce
Fuck ballsamic vinwardgrette
if you know what I am saying.
Says the nitwit who created an entire threads about legacy programing languages, physics texts, and hand-held calculators.
SJG said "Paul Drake is creepy and moralistic."
lol
Anywho ... some dancers definitely adopt a thick sex doll act. I always assume that it's because they really don't want to give the customer access to anything even vaguely attached to their real personality. That's cool. It's not like I'm anxious to give out my work or home address to every dancer I meet. We all set boundaries. Other dancers try to connect with their customers; get to know them a bit. I assume that they're trying to fulfill something closer to a girlfriend / date fantasy, albeit a girlfriend wearing 1/10th of a yard of clothing. Anyway, that's also cool. I like a bit of chit-chat, when I'm in the mood.
Regardless, there are nights when I'm all about the sex doll who wants to be objectified, and there's nights when I want to spend some time talking before getting dances. The critical thing is that I see it *all* as theater. Theater with boobies and a boner, but theater nonetheless. The point is that the show is over the moment I leave.
As long as there's consent, and no one gets hurt, I don't mind objectifying strippers who obviously capitalize on that as part of their hustle. But I would never let that behavior bleed outside the walls of the strip club. Because ... you know ... it's theater.
The guys (and dancers) who don't get that are the ones setting themselves up for problems and drama.
That needs to be added to the TUSCL tagline!
"well - getting ready to head to the club to go sell my dignity"
LOL - Ace!
:)
Strippers sell their dignity and PL give away their shame.
But ultimately if I had to choose a persona and dance/mileage style that makes me LDK the easiest I would say it is a slow and sensual sumbissive 'sex doll'. When she submits herself to my control and allows me to grind my cock in any way I like and pretends to enjoy it is when LDKing is easiest and best. In her own way, all four of my faves know that this is how I LDK the best and have all, again in their own individual ways, adjusted their dances to accommodate that for me. But still they have variety from being a pure sex doll for me or giving me a more 'lovemaking' fantasy fuck. My backup CF is like the former persona and my ATF DS is like the latter.
Also I do enjoy a lot of GFE dick teasing at the bar or tables prior to any dances. But again it is all about giving me a boner. If she has to pretend that I'm a big dick porn stud or that I'm her boyfriend and she's horny it is all good to me.
So ultimately I'm good with it being "objectifying" but honestly the discussion is splitting hairs in my book plus the line between sexual and objectifying is going to vary by individual. It's all a fun act to me so I just go with it and give my 'pretend' horny stud persona back to her.
*1. A person’s value comes only from his or her sexual appeal or behavior, to the exclusion of other characteristics.
My take: I understand in my job, why it would be fair for me to be judged that way. My purpose there is to entertain.
Now if say, the dude judges a coworker based on looks instead of performance, then that’s a problem. But I personally have no way of knowing for sure how a guy behaves outside the club.
*2. A person is held to a standard that equates physical attractiveness (narrowly defined) with being sexy.
My take: another thing that is what it is. It doesn’t bother me when it’s about things like fat or boob size.
I do feel guilty though, when it’s things that aren’t controllable. I used to scroll to tumblr a lot. There would be a bunch of blog posts from black dancers that complained that stripping for them meant hustling twice as hard for half as much as white dancers.
*3. A person is made into a thing for others’ sexual use, rather than seen as a person with the capacity for independent action and decision making.
My take: ToyChaser comes to mind. I agree.
*4. Sexuality is inappropriately imposed on a person.
This is true for the most part. Though I can’t give a hard and fast yes on this. Mostly because I think culture has something to do with defining what’s appropriate.
A lot of dancers don’t care for a lot of Mexican customers. Or Indian. Because many like to constantly try to lick nipples and grab the crotch. Not even talking VIP, but on the floor.
So a lot of the time, my dances with these type end up with constant position changing to avoid it. So they are getting overall shittier dances if they didn’t keep trying.
But they often buy multiple dances despite the shittier experience! And I know they aren’t stupid. They know that if I keep resisting their advances, allowing more is not going to happen.
If I was still a baby stripper, I’d probably say the behavior is “inappropriately imposed.” But now, I don’t really think so. I guess it’s because I know what I’m getting into now and know how to manage it. They have a thrill of the chase fantasy that I go along with. And at the end of (usually multiple) songs, both parties are happy enough.
It’s a bit ridiculous to hear that it’s wrong to objectify a dancer - or sexualize her - when that same dancer only views the customer for his money!
As customers - we know that’s how we are viewed - and yet we are able to continue returning to the clubs. This is one of those emotional attempts by dancers to gain sympathy - but to not see both sides of the interaction.
How many times do dancers tell us - I do it for the money? That implies the interaction with the customer is an objectifying transaction as they don’t view us as people but wallets.
I don’t give a shit - as long as I can objectify the dancer and get off. The dancers complaints that she wasn’t treated like “the beautiful, empowered, woman that she is” fall on deaf ears.
I feel your pain! Lol!
See - it’s not as bad as the dancers make it seem.
The fine between sexualization and objectification is analogous to the fine line between asking for tips and ROB behavior.
Look, stripping is a job. It is not a morality play.
^^^I think that's the one type we associate with over the top misogyny.
^The other type of objectification: her looks, how she dances is basically how strip clubs function.
^There is OK to objectify the dancers and her us. In a lot of cases we are concerned about her from the neck up. And if we are, we aren't concerned about her mind or who she is as much. Some PLs here are, but I don't have that luxury of time so I just ogle her tits and stuff singles in her g-string. And I enjoy the rest of the sexually charged environment inside. That's objectification and how strip clubs are supposed to work, no?
@DC9428 posted: "[It should not demonize] a heterosexual man with normal desires. If you play along with the definition then you legitimize it and give SWERF feminists an excuse to demonize men."
^^^I go along with this as well. I think today we're going bonkers over consent. It started from a good place (earlier generations) about boundaries then went off the rails at some point.
@angry feminist: "It's great that you don't think there's any misogyny in your world, but I think if you talked to these men for long enough you'd find there were some pretty sinister ideas about women buried somewhere beneath the surface."
^^^Which is where some women are today. They think that men "are either genetically or socially conditioned to be evil." So if they believe that, who wonder men are mis-interpreted, and no longer feminism is in some cases about equality.
A pessimist thinks the glass in half empty.
A feminist thinks the glass is raping her.
a pull quote:
"Looks are not the only metric that many of us use when judging a woman in a club, but they are an important starting point."
I would scratch out the third word. 'not'
But if you want sex, then they have to be gender complementary. Strip clubs are the epitome of this.
So sexualization and objectification are the understood ground rules.
We have problems when guys bring the rules of gender complementarity into places which need to be symmetric.
Donald Trump is someone who often makes this mistake.
SJG
My book recommendations to Dominic77, at the tail end, and then about Path of Least Resistance. Both speak to issues Nicole raised on her earlier thread. Some say Path of Least Resistance is really about The Prodigal Son.
https://www.tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=…
TeX, anyone have any experience using this? Mathematical notation is quite complex, and historically computers have fallen way short.
https://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/…
also now getting:
FORTH : the fourth-generation language / Steve Burnap. (1986)
Steely Dan Live 2006 Charlotte - HQ video ( really good! )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQXobc4A…
Unapologetic: A Black, Queer, and Feminist Mandate for Radical Movements
https://www.amazon.com/Unapologetic-Femi….
From the Grassroots to the Ballot Box: How Gubernatorial Candidate Andrew Gillum Won in Florida
https://www.democracynow.org/2018/8/30/f…
@PaulDrake I forgot to ask, what specifically did she do that made it seem gross to you?
@rickdugan - So my ATF is a total ROB, like goes to guys hotel for OTC with no intention of doing anything other than taking the money (at some point I'll type up an article about deep insight into the mind of a ROB and why she's my ATF). However it is a weird thought to think that she would/could never ROB either you or myself but for massively different reasons.