The high price of lap dances

Book Guy, I also have always done most of my clubbing during the day and never on weekend evenings, which is probably when couples are most likely to be in clubs.

I agree that there are more GCs today, but the smaller local clubs still comprise the vast majority of clubs. For example in the Philadelphia area there are maybe 70 or so clubs, and maybe 5 - 8 of those could be classified as GCs. And once you get beyond a major metro area you rarely encounter a GC, they're almost all smaller local places.

Agreed on the "clip joint" and "overpriced" concepts. If you're attending "townie tittie bars" then I see where you can feel that things aren't changing much. Indeed, the places like that with which I am familiar, have not seen changes in mainstreamization either. Those places are always throw-backs. Maybe there are more of them?

In places I go to -- for example, Bourbon Street clubs in New Orleans; Platinum Plus in Memphis (before the raid!); Mons Venus in Tampa -- there are definitely more "normal" folk. Many more average couples, including college-aged kids on dates; more groups from offices, especially women who want to "see what it's like" (an attitude I find quite patronizing on many counts); even mature married women out in groups on hen-nights who would not identify themselves as lesbian but who still enjoy tipping the strippers $1 in the g-string.

Even back in the 70s and 80s, before I ever went to a strip club, I would always hear that the guys in raincoats at the peep shows and adult movie theatres were mostly "ordinary married businessmen", not the kind of fiends from the dregs of society that you might imagine.

I think strip clubs became more mainstream in the 90s if only by virtue of getting much bigger and more common.That peaked and crashed around the end of the decade, especially in terms of clubs' acceptability for business entertainment. In the current decade, clubs have become noticably much more mainstream for young people, including couples and groups of women. When I was in my 20s, I thought of strip clubs as strictly a place where old men went. The current boom seems to be fueled by the MTV porn chic trend. They don't buy many dances, so instead, prices go up with more expectations of extras.

What is this "MTV porn chic trend" of which you speak?

I guess they're two parts of a broader trend making porn and strippers seem acceptably cool: 1) Risque or softcore sex entertainment for teens, such as MTV beach parties, teen sex comedies, etc., and 2) porn chic.

"Aw c'mon, you don't think there are more 'regular couples' in mainstreamized big-city strip clubs now?"

Book Guy, I have no idea whether there are or aren't, I've always avoided big-city gentlemen's clubs. My clubbing has always been almost exclusively confined to smaller suburban neighborhood-type places, and I haven't noticed much change in the clientele at such places over the years. The few times that I've visited a gentlemen's club I usually hated it. In my experience they're almost always overpriced clip joints.

Aw c'mon, you don't think there are more "regular couples" in mainstreamized big-city strip clubs now? I can't remember EVER seeing Joe-college with Jane-college on a date in a Platinum Plus in the 1980s or early 1990s. Now it's almost a fixture.

I do in fact do that at times, but this wasn't one of them. I think some of the "changes" we all report seeing in strip clubs, me included, result from our changing perspective as we gain SC experience. It isn't necessarily the clubs that change, we do too.

:) just seemed to me at the time, you were being contrarian on purpose :)

Book Guy, the only claim I'm making is that my experiences and the conclusions I draw from them are different than yours.

Nah. You're claiming that whatever is the opposite of the rest of our claims is a fact.

"Used to be, you didn't even MENTION that you KNEW WHERE a strip club was." My experience has been the exact opposite. Years ago business people took customers to strip clubs all the time and it was a common discussion topic around the water cooler. But with the increase in the number of professional females in the work force and the coincident rising concerns about maintaining a work environment where women didn't feel threatened (and fears of law suits), and with the changes in expense account rules, talking about or visiting strip clubs have nearly stopped in most professional environments. I used to travel a lot on business and it was standard practice to go to a strip club after lunch or dinner with the guy you were visiting. Today that prectice is almost non-existent and in many companies you'd probably get fired for it.

"Now, your sister can work in one, and you can be the weeknight DJ, and people find it 'cool' or 'OK.' That's 'mainstream.'" Not in my family they don't. Nor the do people in the families of nearly anyone else I know for that matter. In most families that I know it would create a major crisis if someone went to work in a strip club in any capacity.

Before I got married (in the late 1960s) my friends and male relatives took me to a strip club for my bachelor party. It was common then, it's common now. Other than that most people rarely go to strip clubs. We're the exception.

FONDL- You need to go to stripclubs more again- 18 mos since last review, plus at least (by your prior post) 1 yr hiatus from stripclubbing. Anytime a demographic segment is captured more(ie "civilian" females that are more into experience, not just drag alongs), I call that getting more mainstream. Whether or not stripclubbing is mainstream enough-- probably not, certainly not to the same degree as cellphones and PC's became mainstream(and also more capable,AND less co$tly). As for more females in other aspects of life-- there have always been plenty of female patrons/guests in dining establishments and singles bars as long as I can remember. Women have been commonplace in health clubs for at least 2 decades already. It is only in the last 3-5 yrs that I've noticed a larger increase in female SC customers in places from CA to AZ, FL, and several places in between.

FONDL: I'm under the impression that strip clubs may be getting less of the sex-related dollar (as you suggest), but over time they're getting more of of a share of the "normal" entertainment dollar. People are spending on Blockbuster, reading novels, going to movies, traveling to Disney World, going to strip clubs. It has become part of the "average" experience, rather than the "wild and dirty old man" experience. That's why I consider it more "mainstream." I don't actually know what the shares of relative dollars are. All I'm talking about, is what you can talk about around the water cooler. Used to be, you didn't even MENTION that you KNEW WHERE a strip club was. Now, your sister can work in one, and you can be the weeknight DJ, and people find it "cool" or "OK." That's "mainstream."

Although (as we have attested here) market forces might suggest that down-classing would yield greater profit (by means of higher volume and lower overhead), maybe upscaling and getting "classier" is not so much an effort by clubs to get classier CUSTOMERS, as it is simply an effort to get MORE MONEY from the SAME customers. Like, take Billy Beerbelly Bob. He will go into a trampy back-o-tracks dive and pay $5 for a lapper and feel like he's gotten ripped off. Or he will dress in his one nice (flannel) shirt, go to Chix Chix La Roux's Female Revue, and be willing to fork over $40 for the same service and feel like he really had a classy evening.

Maybe.

It seems to me that lap-dancers essentially have the modern equivalent of Scotch Pebbles: a completely free resource that has almost no production cost and almost no added value expense or improvement. You just pick it up on the beach, walk downtown, and sell it to a tourist.

Here is a question for some posters - Have you read ANYTHING on strip club message boards? WHY would you PAY so much MONEY for a lap dance?????

I suggest paying between FIVE DOLLARS and SEVEN DOLLARS for a lap dance! HAGGLE!!!!!!

Minnow, you're missing one key concept ("Since prices have increased, there must be a larger increase in customers") - classical economics assumes perfect markets including rational consumers. But how many strip club customers behave rationally when they've got a naked hottie in their lap? Given their product, strip clubs may well be the ultimate irrational market.

Encouraging consumers to behave irrationally is what consumer marketing is all about. That's why, for example, prices for automobiles keep rising even though demand has been level for decades. It's why beer commercials show guys partying with pretty girls instead of telling you how the beer was made. (Does anyone really believe that Budweiser is worth a price permium?) They're trying to involve your emotions in your buying decisions.

Strip clubs do the same thing. Involving your emotions allows them to raise prices in spite of weak demand. That's what I meant in an earlier post when I said that prices are rising because customers are willing to pay them.

Book Guy, I agree that the country is becoming more polarized (which I've referred to in the past as "bifurcating." That's especially true in political views and in income distribution. And education levels. And it's really hurting the country.

I'm wondering why some people here see strip clubs as becoming more mainstream? Is it because you see more female customers in clubs? Seems to me you see more female customers everywhere - bars, resaturants, country clubs, gyms, offices etc. - but I thinks that's because women have more freedom and more money. Is it because clubs have gotten fancier? Seems to me everything has gotten fancier - bars, restaurants, gyms, offices etc. - because the country has become wealthier. Is it because more people go to clubs? Seems to me more people go everywhere because of more disopsable income.

To me the important factor is this: are clubs getting a greater share of disposable incmome? A greater share of the entertainment dollar? A greater share of the dollars spent on commercial sex? A greater share of the total bar-reataurant business? I think the answer to all of these is "no," that while the strip clubs business may be growing I think they're share is declining, they're growing less rapidly than most other forms of entertainment etc. So where's the mainstreaming? I just don't see it.

It's the "cleaning up of dirtiness." Just like Vegas is now a "family destination." I wonder if this is the flip-side of rising fundamentalism -- the country as a whole tending toward extremes. Polarizing of Democrats versus Republicans (even the moderate voters of either party hate their counterparts), polarizing of fundamentalists (more) versus strip-clubs (more), polarizing of income (rich versus poor disparity increasing), etc.

We're a country without anything in the middle. And I don't mean Iowa.

Chandler's 5Feb post nailed it. FONDL- Saying something is more mainstream isn't the same as something ACTUALLY BEING mainstream. Nor would making "higher income" make someone a "high income wage earner". I do think clubs have become more mainstream. The no. of clubs in latest EDD have doubled over no. of clubs in 92-93 timeframe. One would think that with more clubs(supply), that prices would be steady or decrease. Since prices have increased, there must be a larger increase in customers outstripping the increase in no. of clubs.(more demand, higher prices). From my perspective, I've seen more & more couples and groups going into stripclubs like it was a normal night out. Not prevelant to be sure, but more a factor than 5 or so yrs ago.

Like "truthiness" as coined by The Colbert Report ...

I assumed that he was being facetious. I've been known to make up words myself on occasion, it's kinda fun. And when people who get paid to write the news every day don't know the difference between "less" and "fewer" it's a sure sign that our langauge has gone to hell anyway so why not?

Casualguy: If I were to guess, it sounds like you also work in the IT field.

Bookguy: Moralification? religiousyness? Are you a speech writer for George Dubbyah?

"Another reason that the mainstream-ization might be tapering off, I shudder to think, is the increase in moralification and religiousyness across the country."

Book Guy, I disagree with both your primise that strip clubs became more mainstream and are now becoming less so, and your conclusion that it's because of any increase in religious fervor or morality. You're imagining these things, it's all in your mind.

I've been going to strip clubs for well over 40 years and I haven't seen any evidence that clubs have become either more or less mainstream during that period. Nor has religious fervor become more common or more pervasive, it's always been there, you're probably just more aware of it than you used to be.

And even if these things did occur, they would have had little effect on prices. Prices are rising because there are people who are willing to pay the higher prices. I'm not one of them.

Another reason that the mainstream-ization might be tapering off, I shudder to think, is the increase in moralification and religiousyness across the country. The fundamentalists getting all uppity about "their" country being taken "back" for Jayzus and all that crap. Maybe this is the up side of the new wave of Christian fundamentalism? :)

The problem occurred when strip clubs became so main stream. It became acceptable to use your business expense account to take clients out to strip clubs, even women clients would be curious and want to go. The business model changed and clubs became more glitzy and catered to the mainstream customer who 10 years ago wouldn't think of stepping into a nasty strip club. Club owners saw the trend and raised prices, shortened songs and flooded the market with new clubs. Movies like 'striptease' and 'showgirls' just raised their credibility but ruined it for people like us who take our hobby so seriously...wink wink. It seems the trend is heading back the other way as clubs seem emptier as the novelty has worn off for the amateur club goers. Hopefully we'll see a return of lower prices and dancers who are interested in making money by servicing our LD needs.

You're onto something there, Book Guy. So many strip clubs are run like quasi-legal vice rackets. Their attitude is, "We got the pussy. You got a problem with HOW we sell it? Tough shit. Where else you gonna go, chump?" A liquor license and cabaret license is their license to print money. The whole battle for them is in muscling their foothold in the market and paying off whoever it takes to keep the doors open. The finer points of setting sensible dance prices and room rates are handled with all the sensitivity of a gorilla. That's part of the reason prices go up with no apparent justification.

It must be nice to be in charge and be happy with the profits you are making. In the corporate world, you have to work your ass off doing your regular work which takes up 85 to 95 of your work time and then get annually reviewed on how well you did project work. You are expected to get the work done even though the company doesn't give you time during your normal work day to do it. They pay you an average salary no overtime and then when things get busy, expect you to get all the work done when they keep coming out with more and more improvement projects. In this respect, it's kind of nice to go back to the old ways of doing things by visiting a strip club. The managers are happy with the profits they are already making and aren't making the employees work their ass off trying to squeeze out an extra dime of profit for them.

Yeah, but then, do they HAVE to "get it"? I mean, are they going out of business, or are they making a profit? The mere act of having a marginally successful business may be the single most consistent factor in the fact that many businesses are not phenomenally successful. Think about it ... barely filling the niche, and surviving to a level of adequate comfort, is enough to eliminate all need to improve.

I don't think that managers are any smarter than dancers. They do not have college degress and probabbly started as bird dogs.

My favorite club built it's Champagne Room 5 Years ago. I have been to the club approximently 180 times since it opened. It is rarely used. Occassionally a big spender will come in and opt for it. There are 6 or 8 private cubicles back there. They want $170/hr or will comp you the room if you buy a very expensive bottle of Champagne. Then you have to pay the dancer/s for their time and tip the servers, etc. I spent :20 minutes back there with my 1st AFT as a guest of another customer. You are paying a high price for some privacy. You cannot see the stage. And most of my dancer friends have told me that you will not get any better dance there than in the couch room. Some have mentioned a few exceptions. They would all prefer that I spend $170 on them in the couch room rather than give it to the house. So would I.

If they would just learn that there are more average guys in the club than big spenders they would do better. They could rent the cubes out for $25 1/2 hr. I would buy at those rates. Just for the privcy. But these dumb asses can't even get it , that the customers want the music turned down.

Interesting, that more lapper joints haven't figured it out. They all seem to try to go for the "high class" feel, whether they CAN offer that or not, and whether or not the clientele actually wants it. It's kind of like the trajectory that Volkswagen took in the US, when it first became a "mainstream" car in the 1970s. For a while there, you could get a Squareback or a Rabbit as an economy car, but soon enough they figured out that they could make more money by selling fewer nicer cars rather than more cheaper ones. I don't think that this model (fewer nicer) applies to lappers!

Book Guy, you just described the place where my ATF used to dance. I bet the place has one of the highest ROIs of any club in the US and I bet the owner has become very wealthy.

Seems like maybe the proper formula, is to open a bargain-basement lap-dance parlor. No amenities, no wait staff, no private lounges, no cover charge, high lap-dance turn-over and low lap-dance price. What a great idea! Instead of seeking the high-class clientele, you change your business model towards higher volume and LOWER overhead. Wait a minute, Mons Venus in Tampa has already done that.

My 1st visit to a strip club was in 1969, and since I was underage I was too scared to try and get a lap dance. But from what I saw and remember, the club was nude and high contact. Didn't really do the club thing often until the early 80s. From what I remember, LDs were $10 and topless. Touching permitted up top, but nothing else, and I don't ever remember extras offered. After several years in Europe, where the scene is very different, returned to the US early 90s. LDs were 10-15, rules much like I remembered them. 20 normal by late 90s, more nude clubs, still 20 at most clubs I visit, but girls seem to be pushing for higher amounts. Many clubs, some girls quote 20, some 30. Guess I've been unlucky because I never get the extras pitch. I'm trying to hold the line at 20 personally.

I'm betting that the Northeast has the highest prices, that prices correlate with club size and level of glitz, and that clubs in major metro areas tend to be more expensive than more rural ones. And that prices are rising nearly everywhere. But I think the thing that upsets me the most is the number of clubs where you can't get a decent LD without going for an expensive ($200+) VIP room visit.

Tube socks! ROFL.

I'm going to hit the search feature and see where the low and high prices are, geographically, some time in the near future. Maybe I'll report my findings. Maybe I'll just keep it a secret for my own use. :)

I agree that prices have been rising much too fast. When I was getting dances from my ATF 9 years ago, dances in her club were $10, now they're $20. And that's one of the cheapest places around. Plus a lot of clubs have been adding "amentities" such as parking lot and bathroom attendants, all of whom expect tips. And girls dancing onstage now often expect more than the dollar tip that used to be common. It's become too much for me.

I think prices are rising because the number of customers is declining. Clubs increase prices to try to offset the decline, which is the exact opposite of what they should be doing because the price increases are accelerating the decline. It's the main reason I haven't gone to a club in a very long time - I can get a lot more for my money elsewhere.

My clubbing area overlaps Doug's, so my impression is much the same. When I began going to clubs about 13 years ago, a lot of places around here were raising dance prices from $5 to $10 or from $10 to $20. Since that time, a few clubs have gone from $20 to $25 but that's about it.

The insane prices I read about seem to be mostly in regions where 2-fer specials and bargaining with dancers is the norm. That may be great for buying tube socks, but prefer for lap dances to be straightforward on the pricing side.

I've not really noticed the rise in prices. The main clubs that I go to, still have the same priced dances (and vip) that I paid when I first started going there, MANY years ago (15-ish?)

you are not kidding. At the one juice bar I used to visit regularly, it was $15 when I first went there 10 years ago. I think about 7 years ago, it was raised to $20. Not long after that, it was $25. For a brief, disastrous period a couple years ago it was $30. That nearly caused the closure of the club, as no one would ever get one. They went back to $25, but then forced all to get a $5 wristband first. Even my favorite club, when I first went there 5 years ago, it was $20, but then they had to jack it up to $25 a couple years ago. That's to say nothing about extras or the champagne room.

I started going to strip clubs sometime in the 90's. I don't know hardly anything about escorts or what they charge. Never tried to find out. I can easily be stubborn with how much I pay for lap dances because I really do not feel a need to get them that much. I would just save more money if dancers started asking for higher prices. Then I might find a different hobby or visit regular night clubs. This is a scary thought, what I'm describing reminds me of a poster on here I have on ignore. Don't buy any lap dances, ask for phone numbers, then check them out to see if any are worth dating but then probably never call them. Actually I check them out first and don't even bother asking for a phone number. I've been asked for mine almost every time I do that.

For me, the difference is stark. Strippers:

In 1987 I was paying US$5 for a lap dance. There was no such thing as a VIP fee.

By 1992 I was paying US$10 with ample 2-for-1s. Some places required you to pay in order to get to the private room, but main-floor dances were the norm. US$20 was for a "premium" club or girl.

By 2000 I was paying US$20, with some 2-for-1s, but in general the straight price was required. Nearly all places required that you retire to a costly private room.

By 2005, US$20 a dance was the MINIMUM, and many places required a higher price, either by posting it at $40 or more and then doing 2-for-1s to cut it to the minimum $20, or some other mathematical chicanery. A variety of private rooms offered a variety of ways to part with a lot of money.

It's pretty much a direct line upwards.

Also, in the more ... umm ... private market:

In 1987, I was paying $50 for a reliable release at almost any strip club. This was furtive but fulfilling. Seldom full-service, but f-s was available and at the same price.

In 1992, strippers wanted $100, street-walkers still wanted $20, but the quality of street-walkers had plummeted. Internet-based escorting was on the rise, with $200 the general standard for a one-hour full-service session. Plenty of $75 half-hour girls.

In 2000, strippers are cutting back on in-club services, offer out-of-club at internet rates, which are roughly $250 to $300 for the hour. Smaller markets have smaller prices, and the girls are mostly stellar. Street-walker quality continues to drop.

By 2005, strippers want whatever the internet escorts can get, which is roughly $300 for a one-hour session, often with an up-sell before full-service. Internet escorts are getting less and less attractive in the price ranges that I can afford, while the stellar girls are asking $400, $500, $1000 an hour. Street-walkers are a disaster, I don't patronize them any more.

AMPs have not followed the same progression. From 1987 to 2005 they've gone from roughly $100 to roughly $160 for the same levels of service, within the same degree of variance. That's almost the same as inflation. Almost. At least, it's a lot closer than the other services listed here.

Your experiences differ?

I think one time in the last 10 years when I wasn't drunk, I did pay 2 for $40 from this really hot looking girl. It does seem strange that a long time ago, I think I routinely paid $20 per lap dance. I had money to burn back then. Now I'm paying a mortgage, credit card bills, and saving for retirement. After adjusting for inflation, I'm making about the same amount of money now as I was 10 years ago I believe, maybe less if you consider how some health care insurance costs have increased.

Well I'm holding the line on the price I pay for lap dances. I pay no more than 2 for $30 and occasionally pay 2 for $20. Many dancers ask for more but I don't get dances from them. If no good looking dancers are willing to accept lower dance prices, I'll stop getting lap dances for the most part. I have at one club and I've been consistent every since the club opened a few years ago and routinely charges 2 for $40 on their special. I usually only see a few takers on their special and almost never notice anyone getting dances at the regular price.

Chitown: I was once in my favorite club on a very slow Monday night. Happy hour was over, The DJ announced that all well drinks were just $1 for the rest of the night. I bought another coke and was charged the normal $2.50 for it. I asked the server " next round, can I order a rum and coke and hold the rum?"

Yoda: I see from your reviews that you're in the Providence RI area, and you tend northward toward Mass. How 'bout extras? How 'bout internet escorts? Are their prices higher or lower, now that there's "ready access" thanks to internet marketing, and so forth?

It just doesn't seem to be following the supply-demand curve ...

go to charge the same price for water or soda as they do for, say, a draft beer, to prevent people from nursing a $2 bottle of water all evening. Is your experience different?

Yoda, a lot of the clubs I

Honestly, dance prices haven't changed much in my area for years topless $20/Nude $30 is fairly common. VIP ranges from $300 to $400.

Cover charges and drink prices have gone way up but I go mostly in the daytime when the cover charges are not in effect and I drink bottled water.

Agreed, your "GC" (as opposed to "neighborhood club") is mostly in a major urban area. As many as 70 (GC or neighborhood variety) in the Philadelphia area? Wow, that's a lot.

LDs at Bugsy's in Elyria, Ohio are still cheap ($10)!!! And...... they are still quality LDs too!

If you try the place, check on evilcyn!!! :-)~

And don't forget, two of the best clubs in the midwest are both still $10 per dance... Hip Hugger in Kokomo and Brad's Brass Flamingo in Indy, which also has the unbeatable deal of the $50/30 min VIP... to me, THAT is the best value in ANY club!!