Thoughts on the fantasy aspect of SC'ing

One final thought on our earlier discussion about reality in general and then I'll leave this topic alone: I think it would be fun to hear a debate between a truck driver or construction worker, a theoretical physicist, and a Buddhist monk about what is real and what isn't. I suspect the latter two would find more agreement with each other than with the first guy. In any event it would be fun.

FONDL: Sorry if I overstated the control you say you have over your emotions. As I've said before, I believe I can only control my exposure to stimuli, and my actions in response, but not my feelings. *cue violins*

Also, as I've said elsewhere, I have often found that playing along with a stripper's act, when we're both sort of aware that it's an act, can be the best way to get to know the real person. And fun, I might add.

(I posted before seeing FONDL's latest post.)

Furthermore, it seems to me that the belief that strippers are glad to be there and enjoy being sexual with customers is the minimum fantasy we all buy into to some degree. We like being in a club where everybody seems to be having a good time and the girls have a good attitude. We accept it all at face value. As you say, you "just assume her to be what she appears to be". I doubt if any of us just reject all that and insist on seeing through it all. To do so would be pretty annoying. But it is a show. We agree to play along the second we walk in.

I wasn't aware that I've ever said that I can turn my feelings on and off, what I've been trying to say is that I have some control over them, we all do, and sometimes it's easier than others. I'm actually a pretty emotional person, which is why I've tried so hard to gain some control.

But I guess where you and I differ is that I try to cut through a dancer's act and find out who the real person is, where you and Chitown apparently prefer to enjoy her act. Probably more guys here are like you than are like me. I have no problem with being different.

FONDL: I don't care whether she's straight, either, as long as she convincingly pretends to be. Once she shows that she's not, as in Chitown's case, I may not be able to go along with her act. That's the crux of this whole thread IMO. Some of us can't turn our feelings on and off like a switch the way you say you can.

"... glad to be there, enjoys sexual foreplay with me, could be available for the real thing." It's been a long time since I thought that about any stripper. Maybe because I got to know one very well and know that she rarely thought any of those tihngs at work (although she was very good at pretending to.) And as for being straight, as I said before, I don't care one way or the other, it's irrelevant to me.

One of the things I always try to do in a strip club is to get to know the "real" person as well as I can. I try to find out what makes them tick. I enjoy talking to strippers, some of them are very interesting people, and they're usually very different from the people I usually normally asociate with, which I find refreshing. It's a major reason why I used to go to clubs regularly. I guess I'm somewhat unique here in that respect.

FONDL: Unconsciously. When I say fantasy in connection with strip clubs, I'm not talking about making up any elaborate scenario and backstory. (Sheesh!) Simply the belief that she is what she pretends to be: not lesbian, glad to be there, enjoys sexual foreplay with me, could be available for the real thing.

Chandler: We probably are. I don't have time to read everyones posts in a thread every time I log in . I read CTL's original post and commented on it. Great minds think alike I guess...

FONDL: That's a completely different matter. That was my whole point earlier about trying to limit what I perceive about a stripper in order to sustain the fantasy that makes me feel good. For all I know, she could in reality be a hardcore lesbian, or she could be exactly what I fantasize her to be. Until the illusion is broken, it doesn't make any difference in my feelings.

It seemed you got carried away there upthread, suggesting that if you decided you were Napoleon Bonaparte, your delusions would be as valid to the world at large as the observations of those who know you as a non-Corsican, non-Emperor type guy of more normal stature. So, welcome back to Planet Earth, my friend.

Chandler, if we limit this discussion to the original question of strip club experiences, and we talk about feelings and emotions as opposed to "real" thing like the furniture, how do you know what's real and what's fantasy? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I honestly don't know how you can describe some feelings and emotions as real and others as not real. What's the difference?

FONDL: I agree that everyone sees reality differently. I just don't conclude from the lack of absolute, universally agreed-upon reality that it's all equivalent to anybody's fantasy. That strikes me as a weak rationalization for avoiding reality. There's no need to rationalize fantasy IMO, and trying to do so shortchanges both it and reality.

Also, I don't think the starry-eyed dancer you described is nearly as common as that. Yes, there are some, but they're far outnumbered by those who view stripping as everyday labor pretty much devoid of glamour or great opportunities for them.

I don't think we're the only ones fantasizing in a strip club, I think strippers routinely do too. I've known strippers who enjoyed stripping because it gave them a chance to escape the drudgery of their lives and be someone different for awhile. I've known some who fantasized that stripping was a first step on the way to stardom. And others who thought of it as a way to someday meet someone of great wealth who would rescue them. I suspect that strippers fantasize as much in a club as the customers do.

Chandler, the point I was trying to make is that no two people see the same reality. For example I know people who think that their religion is the most real thing in their lives and others who view religion as pure fantasy. Another example - I was born with a very rare gift, an exceptional ear for music, and I guarantee that when I hear music I hear something entirely different than do you. We all have different talents, interests and belief systems and we all focus on different things in our lives. If you ask several people who witnessed the same thing to describe it, they will each give different and often conflicting descriptions. We each experience a different reality. I think "reality" is something that can't be defined without using circular reasoning. Which is why I say it's all fansasy.

Yoda: What fantasy to you think we've been talking about if not that of a dancer's possible availability? I think we're saying basically the same thing.

FONDL: Those are interesting ideas (similar to thought that goes back at least to Plato). However, they seem to deal with questions of material reality vs. immaterial reality, not reality vs. fantasy. I don't see how they make it easier for Chitown to pretend that a confirmed lesbian could be his lover. No more than I can pretend I'm flying through the clouds like Superman.

Yoda: Right on.

My ATF.. I've spent a lot of time analyzing details about what's transpired between us, what's been said, what's not been said, when, where and how we interact. I perceive that she values our "relationship" as more than a dancer/customer thing. Maybe she does... maybe she doesn't, but it makes me a happier person because of it, and until she point blank tells me otherwise, that is how I will perceive what we've got.

Surely dancers, or girls in general REALLY don't care only about money, right? [sarcasm lightly sprinkled into the discussion]

Here, maybe this little film will shed some light on things... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYVp7dAn3…

CTL: You are fine. I've lost interest in dancers after they got boob jobs, got married, told me about a new boyfriend...whatever. Separating fantasy from reality is not really the issue here. Part of what attracts us to a woman is the possibility of availability even if neither party will never take advantage of it. It's not wrong to be attracted to a stripper. Perspective is what's important.

Chandler, at the risk of boring everyone here to death, let me ask you a couple of questions. (1) Think back to your youth. Are you still that same person? If not, whatever happened to that person? Science tells us that every cell in our body is replaced every 7 years or so. So your body today contains none of the cells of which it was comprised in your youth. The only things that remain of that person are your thoughts. And if you think about it, your thoughts have probably remained relatively unchanged, I know mine have, which is why old geezers like me still feel young. Which leads me to further believe that my thoughts, which are the very essence of who I am, are ageless and are distinct from my body. (There's a great deal of scientific evidence that our thoughts extend beyond our bodies.) Which further leads me to believe that my thoughts will continue to exist beyond the death of my body, in other words that which we truly are is ageless and eternal.

(2) Which brings me to question #2. Have you ever experienced time standing still? I have, on two separate occasions, and I'll never forget either one. Which leads me to believe that time itself is a fantasy. And if time is a fantasy, so is everything else except for our thoughts. And if you doubt that, ask yourself, what happened to yesterday? Where is it? Does it still exist? Did it ever? I submit that it ony exists in your mind.

Incidently, I'm not making this stuff up. There are a large number of books out there, written by very intelligent people, that say essentially the same things that I'm saying. See, for Example, Deepak Chopra's latest book, "Life After Death" which I highly recommend to anyone who has an interest in this stuff. It fascinates me. But maybe that's my age showing.

FONDL: As a practical matter, it seems to me that saying all is fantasy is the same as saying all is reality. Neither position acknowledges any distinction between fantasy and reality. That can be a perilous mind-set to carry into a strip club, as lurid stories in the news remind us from time to time. I think it's also asking for trouble to believe you can always harmlessly choose which fantasies you will experience. Sometimes one will cast a spell you can't control and bite you back before you're even aware of it.

And Bones - harsh commentary. You seemed like a nice guy. I would have expected better from you. Unless I'm mistaken, chitown' s post did not indicate that he was fooled or lied to by this girl about her sexuality - he discovered that she was gay and decided he just didn't like her anymore, which is his perogative. Why so hostile, Bones? Too many dykes break your heart?

Thanx, parody....you said it beautifully
Book Guy - get a clue, please.

"there actually ARE real things, that cannot be avoided or 'thought about differently in a positive way.'"

Book Guy, you're assuming that everyone else shares your belief system, which simply isn't true. There are many people in the world who have a very positive view of dying for a just cause, else our troops wouldn't encounter suicide bombers. There are many people who believe that when someone dies they go to a better place, and that the death of a loved one is a cause for celebration. Still others believe that one never dies, we just move on to another world or to a different body. How someone reacts to any of the events that you described depends completely on their belief system. And that system resides in their mind.

But to get back to the original question, I view my mind-set in a strip club as just another fantasy that I choose to experience. I shift from whatever fantasy I'm living before entering the club into a different fantasy. Just as I used to shift from my leisure fantasy to my work fantasy every Monday morning.

Personally I think that the biggest fantasy of all is to live as if the material world is real while the no-material world isn't. The older I get the more I'm convinced that it's the other way around.

"The only reality is that which occurs in your mind, everything else is just an illusion." Tell that to Bush. And then tell that to the dead soldier in Iraq.

I mean, it's all well and good that we can choose an addled or a reasonable response to a given stimulus. But at some level, there actually ARE real things, that cannot be avoided or "thought about differently in a positive way." Like, your mom dies. A nuke goes off in your back yard. Those things, it's not about how you FEEL and respond to the event; it's actoually, a REAL event in the FIRST place.

FONDL: In Chitown's shoes, my perception would be of a male-lesbian sexual encounter, which doesn't interest me. Unlike you, I cannot alter or control my perception, only how I act in response. I can limit how much I perceive by choosing not to inquire too deeply into dancers' personal lives. However, when the kind of vivid image that bothered Chitown accidentally comes to my attention, I can't simply choose to ignore it and carry on as before.

I have to agree with one thing you said earlier. We are all kidding ourselves. We take the absence of contradictory evidence as an indication that the fantasy could be real. That's called suspension of disbelief.

"Would you be as intrigued if you learned she was a transvestite?" No - in that case I would choose to alter my perception of the situation from being a male-female sexual encounter to a male-male sexual encounter, which doesn't interest me. But note that it doesn't change the situation, the only change is my perception of it, but perception is everything.

Take, for example, a company layoff. One person may see it as the end of the world and fall into despair. Another might be overjoyed with the opportunity to take the termination buy-out and go do something else. The event is the same, it's how it's perceived, how it's internalized, that determines the "reality" of the situation for each individual, And that occurs in the individual's thoughts, not in the event itself. Our thoughts create our "reality."

We register far less than 1 percent of the tens of thousands of stimuli that we encounter every day, our brains automatically filter out that which doesn't interest us, that which doesn't fit our current illusion of our world. In other words, if something doesn't fit into our current fantasy, we aren't likely to notice it unless it hits us over the head. Like seeing our fave with a butch cut.

The only reality is that which occurs in your mind, everything else is just an illusion. Which is why I don't care what a stripper may think of me at any given time, the only thing that matters is my perception of how she's treating me. And that's something that's completely within my own control. As is my perception of everything else in life. We each create our own reality.

This is something I will never understand about the young female psyche (whether straight or les): "Like what you see guys? Well, you ain't getting any of it!"

Would McDonald's do very well if they took that as their marketing campaign? What about Napoleon, could he convince the armies to walk into Russia in winter if he were so convinced of the utter NON-fulfillment a the end of the venture?

Why do young women have this strange instinct to deliberately FOIL and PREVENT that which is good? I don't get it ...

FONDL: We've discussed this before, but if you admit to no gray areas and say it's ALL pure fantasy, then you're back to where we all started. What it comes down to isn't so much your philosophy of what is real as it is your gut reaction. As I said, it could be seen as either a turn on or a sham betrayal. Would you be as intrigued if you learned she was a transvestite?

OK, here's my take on this, and it's a whole lot different from the rest of you guys. I'm amused by the concept of separating fantasy and reality, I think you're all kidding yourselves. In my opinion separating the tow is impossible because it's ALL fantasy, we each create our own reality and it's pure fantasy. Everyone has a different reality. There may be one true reality out there somewhere but none of us have any idea what it is. The world's smartest scientists have been trying to figure it out for centuries without much success.

Chitown, the only thing that happened with that particular girl is that your perception of her changed, she didn't. My reaction to that same situation would have been the exact opposite of yours, I would have found her more intriguing, not less. In fact the first few months that I knew my ATF I thought she was a lesbian (she and another dancer were lovers), and I was actually a little disappointed when I found out that she preferred dating guys. My reality is clearly quite different than yours.

Chitown: I'm with you on this one. She would no longer be on my "to do" list - for dances or anything else.

As a side note, as much as I love hair, to have a girl tell me that I can't touch her hair would be such a turn off, I'd be done with her then. I've only had ONE girl, in all of my years of "clubbing", tell me that I can't touch her hair.

Bookguy: With your prefernce for waifish girls, I think you'd fall in love with the girl I've described in another thread ("Looking For..."). And yes, I can NOT get that girl off my mind today.

Book Guy:

I should let Lowpaw take you to task for these statements but I am unwilling to risk the chance that she might not have seen what you posted.

"I am always DISAPPOINTED by women who genuinely prefer other women. Especially the waiflike, small, ultra-feminine girls, built like barely post-pubescent model superstars, regardless of dress or hairstyle. I want those girls to WANT ME. When they turn out to be lesbians, I can't help but think, (a) "what guy ruined it for the rest of us by being such an asshole that she got turned off guys for life?" (b) "I'm extraneous to her life; I am dispensable to her, but she is indispensable to me; this is an unhappy imbalance of power and desire" (c) "can I be the man to turn her back to interest in men, and in particular in interest in ME? NOT."

(A) Do you really believe "some asshole guy" turned her gay? Has poor treatment of you by women made you want to go out and suck some dick? People are born attracted to either women or men and enviromental or situational influence does not change this.

(B) These are dancers we are talking about here. Regardless of what some of us fantasize we ARE dispensable to them. Nothing but $$$$ for a few minutes of fantasy. And that is OK. That is the nature of the strip club model.

(C) Even if you had Brad Pitt's looks and Ron Jeremy's penis you would not be able to turn a gay woman straight. That is just the way things are. You make it personal but it is just another fact of life.

(These are not slams or personal attacks.)

I have similar experiences regularly, though usually if she "looks like a boy" I'm a bit more turned on. Not because I like the looks of boys (ick!) but because I really like the looks of girls who "look like boys" (because they really don't; they look waifish, etc., not masculine or male). My usual turn-around girl is a chick in jeans and street-clothes who seems to have a hot butt and big boobs; when she gets undressed, I tend to be surprised at myself for finding her unappealingly saggy and waggly and lard-assed.

I am always DISAPPOINTED by women who genuinely prefer other women. Especially the waiflike, small, ultra-feminine girls, built like barely post-pubescent model superstars, regardless of dress or hairstyle. I want those girls to WANT ME. When they turn out to be lesbians, I can't help but think, (a) "what guy ruined it for the rest of us by being such an asshole that she got turned off guys for life?" (b) "I'm extraneous to her life; I am dispensable to her, but she is indispensable to me; this is an unhappy imbalance of power and desire" (c) "can I be the man to turn her back to interest in men, and in particular in interest in ME? NOT."

All three thoughts are downers.

There's a big difference between the general understanding that a dancer most likely wouldn't want to have an affair with you and being confronted with specific, concrete evidence showing why she wouldn't. Each degree from general to specific is harder to get beyond:

It's her job. -> She's in a relationship. -> She's in a lesbian relationship. -> No, really, she's not into dick. At all. -> That other woman you see her with is her lebian partner. -> Oh my God! Look at that hair! She is so butch!

It's the same way for me with dancers' husbands or boyfriends. I can deal with the knowledge that she's married. But the more I learn about it, the more it intrudes on my fantasy. Actually meeting him or seeing them together can kill it by giving me a contradictory image I can't dispel.

It also depends on how her reality clashes with the way she has presented herself to you. Some double-life contrasts can be kind of a turn on, some feel like a cold-hearted sham.

This is one of the reasons I prefer not to talk too much with dancers about our personal lives. Too many chances it will ruin the fantasy. Dancers usually understand this and know what areas to avoid or lie about. But not always. Or they might know but slip up, as in your case, Chitown.

So, I don't think there's anything you need to change in your attitude about fantasy and reality. Your reaction is to be expected. I wonder whether you wish you knew earlier what you know now. Whether you feel your memory of times with her is so tainted now you wish you could take back all the dances. I think a bit of that feeling is inescapable, too, but I don't see any solution. It's a hazard that comes with the bargain. Personally, I think it would be missing the point to want to confirm that a dancer is straight (or single, available, etc.) before suspending disbelief.

If you value the fantasy Chitown, do whatever it takes to avoid the reality. Do not talk about real life with the dancers and do not let them tell you what you don't want to hear. It's hard enough to maintain the illusion without someone inadvertantly ripping open the curtain. Why add to the probibility that you will discover the truth is unpleasant.

Chitown: To answer your real??- I don't think that I could(would) get another LD with your PC lookalike, if I were to know what you know now. That would be akin to getting excited about buying a classic musclecar that looked original & all, but upon further examination, discovering that it has a Ford Pinto engine, and several Kmart replacement parts.

That is the trouble with reality. Reality, and this doesn't necessarily apply only to SC's, is sometimes unpleasant. I know that I could never get dances from two of the ladies who I considered my favorites at the time I knew them, 1 because she went psycho and the other because she had an STD. On the other hand, my favorite DATY lady was married and that didn't really bother me, so maybe it depends on what reality is and how distasteful you find it.

"... she could be exactly what I fantasize her to be." Chandler, I'm curious, do you do this consciously or unconsciously? By your definition I don't think I've ever fantasized a dancer to be anything, if I think about it at all I probably just assume her to be what she appears to be.

Do some people here make up fantasies about dancers that they know to be untrue? I've never done that.