OT: God Didn't Write a Bible

The bible was written by men.

Mathematics, however, is heartless.

Heartless? I think heartless is destroying a whole group of people because they don't believe the same things as you

I separate the creator deity from the moral deity in my religion while Christians see it as the same. This is problematic because it means all of creation has a moral spin, and you have an obligation to inflict your religious beliefs on everyone.

In reality, the Bible is a compilation of two religions mixed together with attempts to explain both moral rules and questions about the nature of reality. As a whole it fails miserably in both, but in pieces there is some wisdom to be had in some of the passages.

Usually it is man that changes a set of laws to fit their own view or needs. One example would be being in the country illegally, yet many groups try to change the law to suit their needs to exploit cheap labor. We humans have a history of taking laws that are in place and making time softer.

The bible is a couple thousand years (give or take) of translation mistakes and editorial decisions by those in power.

The valuable parts, imo, are basically allegorical guidelines.

I don't know anybody who thinks God wrote the Bible. Jewish tradition states that Moses wrote the first 5 books of the Old Testament, and the authors of many books are given, such as Isaiah, Jeremiah and Daniel. As for the New Testament, every book's author is known: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, the epistles of Paul, etc.

I agree that the Bible is not an instruction manual. Only literal-minded fundamentalists would think so. Instead, the Bible is collection of books that deal with our origins, morality and relation to God. There are some instructions (like the Ten Commandments), but most of the Bible is stories and poetry and metaphors of how people struggle to understand human existence.

I know plenty of people who think the Bible is the "word of God" and that he essentially wrote it "through" humans.

Yes jester, that's the view that Christians generally hold.

Judaism predates Christianity, is the first of the three monotheistic religions. That's of significance, imo.

Everything in the Bible predates the Bible; it's all taken from previous known works. In fact, there is not a single story of Jesus original to the Bible. If there really WAS a Jesus, it would be an incredible coincidence that all the events that happened to other people all happened a second time to him!

The "great" works of religion were all written by people who were trying to understand their place in the world and describe their reactions to unexplained events in their lives. In most cases, these writers were hopeful, dedicated people seeking a way through a broken world. None of the Jewish/Christian books were originally written as "scripture" and only obtained their "holy" status after long use (and in most cases, careful editing).

Not to rain on Rockstar's opinion, but there is really a significant body of extra-biblical evidence for both the existence of the Jew, Jesus (Joshua, in Anglicized Hebrew) and his ministry. The "miracles" described in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were descriptive of the character of the man Jesus and, like almost ALL other writings of the era, were never intended to describe exact events. When an old Cowboy's fan says "Bullet" Bob Hayes could fly, that doesn't mean fly through the air.

Even the names connected with New Testament gospels and letters do not refer to the actual writers, but rather to the style or authenticity of the contents. Fewer than half of the letters attributed to the Greek Jew Saul the tentmaker from Tarsis (Paul) actually include anything originated by Saul/Paul. In educated Christian theology, none of those facts reduce the value or "truth" of the writings.

These holy writings, and similar writings from other faiths, are intended to express the human effort to make sense of creation and find our place in the cosmos. For Hindu, Muslim, Krishna, Buddist, Jew, Zororastian, Christian or any other group with "holy" writings supporting their concept of God, the reality is they live with unprovable faith, in hope of a better tomorrow.

And the reality also is, too many screw up the teachings and use the writing as a kind of paper hammer to beat up anyone who thinks different. That is NOT the fault of the writing!

That's because the bible is a work of fiction, written by men to control other men/women through the fear of an almighty being.

Obviously I will leave the theological issues for the prophet Juice to address but a couple of points.

As for whether or not the Bible is an instruction manual, the answer is both yes and no. The Old Testament is mostly stories with moral themes and details about God's interactions with mankind. The four gospels are also stories although they contain a lot of teachings and instructions. And the epistles and the rest of the New Testament is composed mostly of teachings and instruction. So there is a lot of instruction, and a lot of stories.

I do have to disagree with GACA when he says that authoratative instructions cannot be left to interpretation. The law is basically a set of instructions on how people relate to one another in society, and the law is authoritative and binding. Nevertheless, lawyers and judges spend much of their careers debating what those laws/instructions actually mean. Thus, I don't think the fact that the Bible is subject to differing interpretations is really a basis to claim that it is not authoritative. You may conclude that it's not trustworthy for a variety of other reasons but you shouldn't so conclude just because people dispute the meaning of various passages.

Interesting discussion. I'll add more later if I have time.

Alot of great comments. I agree with Dallas very strongly so my comments want be as long on this one.

In short

I believe all holy books are man made and gives us wisdom for daily living and points to the one true GOD

This God is bond by no one book, no one name, no one people

But

The Lord of all our books and the people's of this earth.

God is indefinable and unsearchable yet we try imperfectly with our books and history and sciences

Life comes from God and all life will go back to God

Love, peace, forgiveness and acceptance of difference is the path my brother's

This is only a problem if you look to the Bible for prescriptions.

Once you stop taking any of it that way, and stop trying to follow any narrative voice, and try to learn to see the things it is describing from all sides simultaneously, you will see that there is nothing else like the Bible and there never could be. So it's greatness is not underestimated. It is a chronicle of spiritual searching.

SJG

GACA:. It was not the "Tree of Knowledge" that Adam and Eve ate from, but rather Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore, there was no sin before since A and E did not understand the concept of sin.

This story, like most of the Creation and Noah stories, is allegorical. The Bible is not necessarily literal truth, but these stories often reveal God's truth.

Clearly, no human beings were present during the "seven days" during which God created the Earth, or for the deliberation of God with his angels (the tower of Babel, the story of Job, etc) but these stories would have resonated with the listeners. Actually, read from a scientific standpoint, the book of Genesis isn't far off the the big bang theory and the theory of evolution.

Similarly, the story of Noah and the great flood may have had its roots in the submerged cities discovered in the Black Sea. BTW, all the pictures of the ark made popular in print media are bs. It would have been built as a rectangular solid. There is no reason to put curved ends on a barge that isn't meant to be propelled. Also, finding the remains of the ark is a fool's errand; do any of you actually think that all that seasoned lumber would have been allowed to stay part of an ark no longer required? No, it would have been dismantled and put to use. Did it exist? Probably in a less grandiose fashion. It is interesting that the size and proportions described were not at all bad for the purpose.

Anyway, the point of all this is that the Bible is not a literal, exhaustive manual on how to live one's life. Rather, it reveals truth that allow the reader to make moral, ethical decisions. It is also a history of Israel's interaction with God and other nations. Given that the characters are presented with all of their flaws, it's probably pretty accurate.

Now, a lot of Baptists and Pentecostals will disagree with me, knowing as they do that the King James Bible, in the original old English spoken by Christ and all the prophets is the inerrant word of God (tongue inserted very far in cheek!).

The above is a pretty representative view of current Presbyterian (PCUSA) theology.

I thought the rules were specific - as they were provided in the 10 commandments. The Bible is a collection of stories relayed through prophets. The Old Testament tells of the early history and several of the books provide stories of Moses life and that of the Jews/Israelites. The New Testament is primarily associated with Jesus and his teachings.

In my simple view - the commandments are specific. The stories of the Bible are highly prone to misinterpretation - as they were written thousands of years ago - and then recopied by others - and there could have been mistranslations and mistakes in writing them.

I don't get caught up in picking apart the text of the Gospel. I take it as a great work of literature - and I enjoy the story. I have also had to take a few steps back and try to place myself in a mind set of folks who had very little understanding of science and basically no medicine. Those folks lived at most 50 years - and it was a very difficult life at best.

The apostles were lucky to actually have Christ with them - and that's part of why I enjoy the New Testament.

Just about everything in the Bible is repudiated later on. The exception to this would be the New Testament. But that is repudiated in the writings of saints and mystics in the two millennia which followed.

The prescriptions are not where the value is in the Bible. The value of the Bible is that it lets you see the issues that people struggled over, and still struggle over.

Important not to get caught up in its extremely theistic narrative style. The biggest issue in play is the rejection of idolatry, but this means different things in different situations.

SJG

I disagree with much of what has been posted but since I don't care about arguing this topic, I'll leave it at that. I know I'm not going to change anyone's opinion without a miracle to go along with whatever I say so arguing seems pointless.

If I could time travel, I might try to fix the Bible by including a phrase that women giving bj's are showing their love to God but then whomever selected the books for the Bible might decide to leave that book out screwing guys over for all time. God can work through people but mankind understanding God can be difficult if some men decided some books belonged in the official Bible but some books did not belong.

They teach this concept in sermons at church. Example , a flood left a woman stranded on her roof. She says God will save her. After an hour a guy comes by in a boat. She declines being rescued and tells him she believes God will save her. The water keeps rising up to her roof. Another guy comes by trying to take her off the roof. She declines and tells him God will save her, she doesn't need his help. Finally the water is up on the roof and another guy tries to get her in his boat. She declines saying she believes in God and that God will save her. She drowns, Goes to heaven and then asks, why didn't you save me? She hears I sent someone to save you 3 different times and you turned them all down. God works through people and nature. Just my opinion.

:)

I like this: amazon.com

SJG

i agree with what sharkhunter wrote.

" Anyway, the point of all this is that the Bible is not a literal, exhaustive manual on how to live one's life. Rather, it reveals truth that allow the reader to make moral, ethical decisions. It is also a history of Israel's interaction with God and other nations. Given that the characters are presented with all of their flaws, it's probably pretty accurate."

Amen Attacdawg

Although poetic, the King James Version of the Bible (the one most Christians know) is a terrible translation. The NIV is better, but there's still some nuance lost in translation.

It's generally accepted Genesis had at least 4 authors and borrowed very heavily from previous creation myths.

Jesus pretty blatantly plagiarized Confucius. That said, if you just look at the quotes attributed to Jesus, you're left with a pretty decent moral philosophy.

This is one of the most open, informed, civil and non-dogmatic discussions about the Bible I've ever read. Would that all the wannabe theologians, scholars and pastors out there treat each other with such grace! You guys are cool.

That said, some folks do treat the Bible as a blueprint for life, but they pick and choose the rules they want to live by. The third commandment says to observe the sabbath and keep it holy, Jesus observed the sabbath. Paul was a Jew, and so were all the other Disciples. Yet most Christian churches do not observe the sabbath in the way Jews do. Most Christians don't even call it sabbath these days. Many Christians work either on Saturday or even Sunday. The "blueprint for life" folks generally choose their "biblical" rules, and count who is in and who is out of their religious club, based on their own social and political preferences.

@JamesSD, you are close. Modern Biblical scholarship is leaning toward the theory that the first five books of the Bible (the Pentateuch) are stories accumulated over several hundred years. The current theory is that Genesis stories come from at least three sources (maybe more than three original writers), that at least one of those writers was a woman, and that the Genesis stories were later rewritten by post Davidic priests, redacted by later Hebrews and edited into a form similar to what exists today. These scholars still argue (disagree) on how much redacting and editing happened before the Hebrew kingdoms' defeat and slavery in Babylon versus after the return to Jerusalem.

And many modern readers of the English translations of the Pentateuch fail to recognize that almost ALL of the five books are POETRY! Yes, there are social and moral "truths" contained in those writings. Many modern Jews, Christians and Muslims fail to realize that many of those truths were originally social and health guidelines. The "ten" commandments (actually the Pentateuch has 613 "commandments") were all about social civil harmony and public health, very much like modern law. Putting the God of the Jews first was an instruction to be true to the people of your own group ("Proud to be an American" is little different and don't steal is pretty clear to everyone).

Even the "special" instructions, like no pork, were originally health guidelines. Pigs carry blood and tissue parasites that are not always killed by cooking over an open fire and those parasites can be fatal to humans. The Jews and Muslims BOTH follow this rule (occasionally) without recognizing that the basis for the rule no longer applies to fully cooked pork. If a modern reader of the "holy" books were to actually learn WHY a guideline was established and address that rule in context, there would be fewer arguments. Likewise, when everyone ate with their right hand out of a common plate, it made a lot of sense to ask everyone to wipe their ass with their left hand. Forks and toilet paper make that rule less important.

Even the Sabbath addressed by aks451 is about society more than God. To a people who had real experience as slaves (in Egypt and in Babylon) working every day without rest, the concept of taking a day off became a statement of their liberty. Keep in mind that in the Kingdoms (the plural is correct) of the Hebrews Government and God were part of the same thing. To be "king" of the Jews was to be the anointed representative of God and the political head of state.

The modern reinterpretation of the religious rules, similar to an ongoing reinterpretation of the Constitution, is about repurposing the rules to fit a current political or social agenda. For instance, to argue that the first amendment prohibits any religious activity in government is a 180 degree reversal of the original meaning. The writers of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights intended to prevent the federal government from ever exercising any control over any religious activity while permitting religious organizations free reign to practice their faith anywhere. Note that the salaried congressional office of "Chaplin" predates the constitution and is the longest existent civilian government office in this country.

The Jewish and Hebrew dietary rules continue in force as a similar means to use compliance as a political or social tool.

While I support the wisdom, insight and beauty of the ancient holy texts, and even acknowledge that a higher power could be responsible for their inspiration and guidance, I do not support using the Bible or the Koran or any other religious writing as an instrument of repression.

I still claim that any all knowing God would have intentionally made tits erotic and exciting to men and only a loving God would have made men with dicks that get hard when women grind on their crotch. A God of grace and goodness would have intended than humanity have strip clubs!

@ sharkhunter: I like your idea, but to make it more interesting how about the guy in the boat is SJGay and she needs to convince him to let her blow him to save her life, and he has to decide if he can stomach her attentions in the name of saving a human life. However it turns out is certainly a worthwhile passion play.

I'm surprised we haven't heard from DrPhil - as I'm sure one of his relatives had input into the creation of several passages. Not sure where ass-less chaps and Kim Basseter are involved -

my ancestors had nothing to do with the bible, which is all bullshit. now the bagavaad gita is a different story. had a distant ancestor that used to chat with krishna over breakfast

i am also a descendant of orphius and therefore a descendant of apollo. why else do you think my family would have had so much impact on the music world?