Sex Trafficking.
JohnSmith69
layin low but staying high
I just watched this liberal documentary on sex trafficking. And I'm high. Which means that I feel very liberal.
This documentary claimed that almost every sex worker is trafficked in some sense. They focused on prostitution but occasionally mentioned strippers and just talked generally about sex work. I know what I think which is that this is bullshit. Most strippers who give extras are just making a voluntary decision that this job is the one for her.
But here's the point this show made. Most of these girls are in some sort of desperate financial condition that in effect forces them to sell their bodies. So it's not really a voluntary decision because they in effect have no choice. And the guys/johns that buy them are just taking unfair advantage of the girls' hardships.
As this is being described, I'm thinking of all of the prostitutes that I now fuck. All but one is motivated by a desperate financial event. Two were on the verge of homelessness when we met, one still is, there's a parent desperate to provide for her kids, one had very deep student debt, another had no student debt only because she worked as a stripper/prostitute on the side, etc, etc. How do I deny that at some level I have taken advantage of the dire financial circumstances of these girls?
Yes I treat my girls well, I spoil them. But the show said that's how pimps get girls. They treat them like a goddess until they're hooked. I treat mine like a goddess. Shit. Am I a pimp?
The show also talked about how young the girls are, and how that's another way they are taken advantage of. Pimps start grooming them at 17, but don't make them a prostitute until the day they turn 18. The pimps want 18, 19 year olds because they are easier to manipulate. Sound familiar?
Historically I haven't ever felt much like I was taking advantage of my girls. I pay them so much money I sometimes feel like I've been taken advantage of. Mostly though it feels like a fair, voluntary, mutual transaction with no sense of coercion. But this show made me feel very guilty. But tonight I'm liberal. So I'm not sure what feelings are real and which ones are temporary.
So which is it? Do our strippers chose their jobs in a fully voluntary manner? Or at least at some level, are they forced into the job? Am I ( are we) taking advantage of them? At least a little bit?
This documentary claimed that almost every sex worker is trafficked in some sense. They focused on prostitution but occasionally mentioned strippers and just talked generally about sex work. I know what I think which is that this is bullshit. Most strippers who give extras are just making a voluntary decision that this job is the one for her.
But here's the point this show made. Most of these girls are in some sort of desperate financial condition that in effect forces them to sell their bodies. So it's not really a voluntary decision because they in effect have no choice. And the guys/johns that buy them are just taking unfair advantage of the girls' hardships.
As this is being described, I'm thinking of all of the prostitutes that I now fuck. All but one is motivated by a desperate financial event. Two were on the verge of homelessness when we met, one still is, there's a parent desperate to provide for her kids, one had very deep student debt, another had no student debt only because she worked as a stripper/prostitute on the side, etc, etc. How do I deny that at some level I have taken advantage of the dire financial circumstances of these girls?
Yes I treat my girls well, I spoil them. But the show said that's how pimps get girls. They treat them like a goddess until they're hooked. I treat mine like a goddess. Shit. Am I a pimp?
The show also talked about how young the girls are, and how that's another way they are taken advantage of. Pimps start grooming them at 17, but don't make them a prostitute until the day they turn 18. The pimps want 18, 19 year olds because they are easier to manipulate. Sound familiar?
Historically I haven't ever felt much like I was taking advantage of my girls. I pay them so much money I sometimes feel like I've been taken advantage of. Mostly though it feels like a fair, voluntary, mutual transaction with no sense of coercion. But this show made me feel very guilty. But tonight I'm liberal. So I'm not sure what feelings are real and which ones are temporary.
So which is it? Do our strippers chose their jobs in a fully voluntary manner? Or at least at some level, are they forced into the job? Am I ( are we) taking advantage of them? At least a little bit?
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35 comments
Women marry for financial security, and so their offspring are taken care of. Some women fuck for financial security, either for the night, the long-term, or to get enough money for drugs.
There are way too many sorry bastards who do traffic women and they should be shot in the head. But in the big scheme of things this is the exception not the rule, IMO.
I knew a dancer a couple of years ago who never danced in her home town. She traveled a couple of hundred miles to another town with two other girls to dance in another state. She told me about a not uncommon occurrence of being approached by one or more men trying to convince the girls to come with them. "Get in our car and we'll go party" kind of thing. She said it happened more than one might think it would. She was convinced these guys were pimps looking for girls to put to work. She and her friends stayed away from these guys and were always looking out for this ploy.
I mean, fuck, by that definition I'm coerced to go to my job so I can provide for my family.
There are prostitutes with pimps, and there is more than zero sex trafficking. But the girl who sucks dicks and drives a Beemer and wears Gucci? Yeah, she's not a sex slave.
In reality though, there are often ample other options for women in dire straits, especially if they have kids. Homeless shelters, including family shelters and transition programs, abound in most areas, as do soup kitchens, food pantries, job placement programs, etc. Nobody really has to sleep on the street anymore who doesn't want to. So if a girl is fucking you for money and seems desperate, it is not because her only other option is to sleep in the cold or not eat, but that fucking you for money is more preferable to her than her other options.
But seriously, without downplaying the serious issue of legitimate sex slaves/exploitstion, is it hard to imagine that for many, it's a job they do because they are good at it, and in some cases enjoy doing it? All of this just because a huge portion of us is morally uncomfortable with the concept, and refuse to understand it. We all are under duress for money on some level, and some people are most effective in filling that need through their body and related skills. End of story.
I'm still liberal but now I feel like it'll be better in the morning,
w.r.t. young women being more vulnerable to being pimped that is probably so to a greater degree but then again they are old enough to know what's right from wrong just like the young-guys that wanna live life on the fast-lane & get into crime & drug selling & suffer the consequences.
Maybe I'm naive about the extent of physical coercion but I think that the vast majority of strippers would not fall under the more restrictive definition of coercion above and should have the right to pursue whatever profession they want to, including providing sexual services (from dancing to sex) in exchange for money. I also think that legalizing and regulating prostitution would greatly reduce the threat of human trafficking.
So if you have more money than another you are obligated to provide for them, isn't that a bit extreme.
Yes there some that are trafficked most are not, clear thinking seems to go out the window, plenty of financially desperate girls don't have sex for money some do. The premise is flawed completely I reject it.
The fact is, the media and "great" liberal causes spend millions on TV "documentaries" and special charity drives to deal with a possible problem that is more tied to illegal immigration than to sex slavery. In order to justify all the attention, the promoters of the "sex trafficking" scam do conflate employment in every sexually related industry with "sex trafficking." There was another "documentary" a few years ago that claimed adult toys (dildos, blow up dolls, vibrators) contributed to sex slavery.
I find it remarkable that these liberals will so loudly denounce "sex trafficking" and claim to be disgusted by sexual abuse of underage women while giving Slick Willie Clinton a pass on his 50+ plane trips on his (now convicted) pedophile buddy's "Lolita Express."
but lets be real here more of the clubs the women are here on their own and their own previous decisions in life led them to a life of stripping. the documentary always love to blame the guys but lets face facts but i agree with RICK. these women have several choices in life to do better or other ways to deal with their situations and they choose to dance and/or prostitute themselves for money. IJS
Most people are in a financial condition that makes them sell themselves--their physical labor, their mental labor, their skills. Unless you were born to a wealthy family, you have to sell yourself to survive.
For most of my working life, I wore a suit and sat at a desk and performed tasks that used my education and mental abilities. I was never physically abused. But still my time was spent doing what someone else wanted me to do. Now in retirement I am free to do what I want every day. It's better than working.
Most strippers chose their job because it is their best alternative. They can make a good income without getting years of education and without working long hours. They are better off than they would be working a minimum wage job.
I know a stripper who quit dancing and worked at Ikea for a year. Then she came back to the strip club. She told me that she only made $11 an hour, that she had "all these taxes taken out," and that "they wanted me to work all the time."
Making a rational economic decision to strip is not the same as being forced by a pimp to sell your body.
"rickdugan
Joined Nov 2009
Clubs: 109
Reviews: 145
10 Hours Ago • Would it be better if they DIDN'T have food, or shelter, or clothes, or pay their utility bills, or...
In reality though, there are often ample other options for women in dire straits, especially if they have kids. Homeless shelters, including family shelters and transition programs, abound in most areas, as do soup kitchens, food pantries, job placement programs, etc. Nobody really has to sleep on the street anymore who doesn't want to. So if a girl is fucking you for money and seems desperate, it is not because her only other option is to sleep in the cold or not eat, but that fucking you for money is more preferable to her than her other options."
Also I wonder where our resident liberals are. To be philosophically consistent, a liberal should identify with the oppressed sex workers.
Even then, I highly prefer widescale legalization and regulation, which is in the best interest of the safety and health of all parties involved.
The chances of getting caught While OTC with a stripper are minuscule
To me it appears that women that go into prostitution that the prostitution is a symptom of their problems; not the reason their lives may be in shambles - their lives are not in shambles b/c of prostitution more often than not their lives are in shambles and this leads them to prostitution.
Yeah – it seems to now be in vogue that the problem is the john looking for consensual P4P (as if men are gonna wanna stop having sex) – the liberal/progressive view is that when it comes to sex women have no power or say-so and can’t say no (assuming she is not being pimped or coerced which is often the exception).
This reminds me of a TV show I was watching a few months ago about the history of Miami and the gay community where back in the 60s the police would raid the gay-bars and arrest people for just being in those places – and then it would let be known to their employers and many of these folks would lose their jobs and careers particularly if they worked in the public sector.
I have no answers on the drug abuse side of things. I don't think prohibition and criminalizing drug use helps much, but I don't really think letting people take anything they want is a great idea either.
I'm the sort of feminist who believes sex work is a choice women should be allowed to make for themselves. Outlaw the trafficking or pimping, but not the sex work.
As far as trafficking, yeah I don't think it's all that prevalent it just sounds good. Though I was under the impression that it happened to some degree in the AMP trade?
One book I read talked about people who are stock brokers and spend 1/2 of their time in the US and 1/2 in their native India. Are these people the victims of labor trafficking?
No, the idea is predicated on the idea that women sex workers are always victims.
Some have observed that the puritanical wing of feminism is focusing on this because they have lost when it comes to porn. Used to be they talked about porn. But now because of the internet porn is universal. So they talk about trafficking.
As far as AAMPs, the girls from Asia jump at the chance to come here and make some serious money, especially when they are too old to work in their country. So with a couple of 6 month stints they can make enough for a house and still have a nest egg. They target $15k cleared per month.
If they have any problem with the boss, they run off to another shop and the boss is screwed over. They have real power in the arrangement. One phone call and another shop sends someone to pick them up, and they are gone.
If you have someone in a strange place where they don't know how to get around and function, then that could be a problem. But that is not how it works with our local AAMPs. The girls are highly prized and well taken care of.
Sex workers can be targets for crime, because sex work is illegal. And their have been waves of AAMP robbers. Amnesty International has called for legalization to reduce all risks.
Sex workers on the whole are no more trapped than anyone else.
And so yes, raising the minimum wage and providing a better economic safety net, as they have in Western Europe, and as liberals generally want, will help everyone.
SJG
Listening to Music
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4echOq2…
Basically everything SJG says seems to be disputed and rebuffed in the articles below it is very clear the massage parlor girls have little to no power and no freedom. They are "highly prized" Hostages it seems the sleep time rapist is right about that.
According to the court documents, Durnal believed that "the Korean girls working as prostitutes at area brothels are doing so because they are indebted to loan sharks [in Korea]. If the girls do not repay the debts they owe, members of their family will be killed." He also said, according to the documents, that "the girls have learned to be good 'actresses' in order to be able to have sex with up to ten men a day that they do not actually desire to be intimate with."
https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/o…
Who are the victims?
The victims are most often Asian women, of diverse ethnicities and nationalities, including Korean, Thai, Chinese, and ethnically Korean-Chinese citizens. These women may have come to the United States on valid visas, fraudulent visas, or may be undocumented or have been smuggled into the United States. Most victims of sex trafficking in fake massage businesses are adult females. One fake massage business may involve one or two victims or several victims.
https://traffickingresourcecenter.org/se…
http://fox13now.com/2015/06/10/massage-p…
Detectives served a search warrant at the massage parlor and found that Zhao had been living there. They said Zhao used a sink spray to shower, had a rice cooker for food and had little clothing in her suitcase.
http://www.mcall.com/news/breaking/mc-c-…
Elizabeth Pfenning, a program associate at Polaris, said the women are typically recruited from Southeast Asia with promises of legitimate employment in America, after they agree to pay a fee. That fee can be tens of thousands of dollars, and the women are not free to go elsewhere until they have worked off their debt. Food, lodging and other costs can be charged to their debt in an endless cycle, Pfenning said.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the…
That lasted about 2 weeks - they want me to work in the morning? Do you know how tired I am after being on my feet for 8 hours? After taxes I've got shit to live on.
After 2 weeks she was off her feet and on her knees.
Easy money, no heavy lifting.
Sorry I don't find them to be at all credible. These articles consist of source journalism, that is they are written by journalists who are simply taking what law enforcement tells them. And today the main justification law enforcement uses to try and justify prostitution busts is this idea of trafficking.
And it is extremely ill defined, not requiring force, fraud, coercion, or minors.
That there could be some abuses taking place somewhere, is most certainly true. Many marriages are abusive too.
All I can tell you is what I have seen, and this comes from GFE sessions in AMPs, where GFE is not standard, and the girls usually want me to take them home with me and marry them, just like civilian girls.
It comes from being treated to Dim Sum at the Joy Luck Club in Cupertino as part of a big group, which is friends, boss, and girls from a large multi-address operation.
It comes from knowing some of the girls for decades, like Purple Dress Donna, who owned her own house, and lots of others two. Each time LE busts them, they go to a different city and use a new name, and continue.
It comes from being treated to phenomenal GFE auditions by girls who have mortgages to pay and who offered me a home session relationship. And also from girls who were offering that, but clearly what they really wanted was a long term civilian relationship.
It comes from being a dinner guest regularly in an AAMP in a large Sunnyvale house, where the girls were cooking our dinner. In AAMPs extreme MSOG GFE is standard and the girls often get lots of sessions. Even though some guys are quite good with them, the girls own muscle contractions really tires her out. So it shows and when they have had a busy day, they look for opportunities to nap the next day.
Usually the residents in conservative neighborhoods go ballistic once they discern such an operation in their neighborhood. So they put lots of pressure on police and they don't care how far the police go in shredding the Constitution, arresting people without evidence or via entrapment.
Likewise, LE tries to justify their activities by using this concept of trafficking, even though it is complexly ill defined. And then sometimes the girls don't want to get into trouble, or they are mad at the boss, or they've just decided that they want to stay here. So they know they get a Visa if they rat out the boss.
Most Asian sex workers want to work as many hours as possible. Most Asians are this way anyhow. So napping in an AMP is common. If they can get away with it, they'll sleep in it. If they could get away with it, they'd be bedding down with customers. A girl invited me to do this with her. At core these are just ordinary girls who like to be taken care of and they like to be fucked. If you do take care of them and if you do fuck them enough, they fall in love with you.
Sleeping in the work place is not that much different from what I have seen and partaken in in areas of the high-tech sector. A joke about startups is, "We are totally open about time, you can work any 80 hours per week you want." People sleep in conference rooms. Sometime cots are supplied. Persons of the Exempt employment category never get overtime.
The girls who actually live here are less mercenary. They might have a child, they might have mortgage payments. They live more ordinary lives. These are the sorts that usually want to go home with me. Women get that way once they get beyond their mid 20's. Also, these Asian countries are more conservative, so women are more marriage desperate. If someone treats them as they would any other woman, instead of like a prostitute, they will often pull out all the stops and really pour on the GFE.
The girls who are here just for 6 months, prefer just to work non-stop. They don't have too many friends and they don't know much about our country or culture. But they can be very nice, and they do good sessions because they have been coached. Sometimes they do take on civilian boyfriends.
Most of the AAMP girls here on a Visa set targets of $15k per month. This works out to their $100 cut of the $160 session, 6 sessions per day, and 25 days on of each month. They don't always meet their targets, but they do try.
They need to be driven to the bank regularly. I've been there with them on these bank runs and when they first opened their account. And I've woken up in the mornings with them too. They pretend to be case hardened, but they are still just ordinary girls. Many are here because they have already reached retirement age for their country. So they want to make a few more bucks.
While I'm sure there are some places where abuses are occurring, I have never seen it. Mostly it is just like any other employment relationship. Our Capitalist system has the effect of driving wages down and rents up. So living in this country can be hard.
Here in Silicon Valley we have huge numbers of homeless, and we have lots of people who have 1 or 2 jobs, going way over full time, who still can just barely afford to be housed, like renting someone's living room, or renting a spot in a 2 car garage which had been partitioned into quarters. So it is not just sex workers who are sometimes living in marginal conditions.
I agree with Amnesty International that the best way to reduce abuses is de-criminalization.
Overall I don't think the Asian women working in AAMPs and AMP are at any greater risk of abuse than are the WHITE WOMEN working in strip clubs which are written about on this forum.
The most effective overseas recruiters are women who have just finished their stint. Often they'll be trying to recruit coworkers and school classmates whom they have know for decades, and often since early childhood.
One girl had worked in other countries, but she was not used to the full MSOG-GFE expectation created here in the bay area by Red Book. I explained it to her. It clicked. She said, "Oh, now I understand, they want a girl friend for 60min." And from then on she was embracing guys crotch to crotch and DFKing them into submission, once she got the front door closed. She loved it. She said, "This is real". I told her that that was what guys wanted. Instantly she became very popular.
So before she went back to her country, she cut a deal with the boss. Then she started recruiting all the girls, most much younger than she, who worked in her Karaoke Hostess Club. In this club the girls did a little bit of everything, including some FS. But that was not standard. She told them everything, the negative stuff, and about how much was expected, and she showed them her bank book. They all wanted to come here and do a stint!
The boss had to front their travel expenses and their money to show Immigrations Enforcers to get in. They had to be carefully coached, because the younger and better looking they are, the more ICE questions them. The girls don't understand our laws, so careful coaching is necessary. But the girls do get themselves in.
And the boss had to pay first and last month's rent for a fancy gated community town house which goes for about $3k per month, to handle 2 girls. To do this he worked through proxies, and he paid them for this. One of the proxies was a man who's wife was a very high ranking administrator in the University of California. The wife watched the money, and so this guy wanted some off the books money. So he rented the apartments in his name, then he spent his pay fucking the girls who worked there.
And the boss had to maintain a few phone operators as well, and he had to make regular money pick up runs and bank runs.
Then when the girls go back, they make sure to sign up for their next stint. And most of them do come back and work for the same boss.
So yes, your articles say that these Asian shops are covers for prostitution. Yes of course they are. Otherwise guys like me would have no interest in going there. I have no interest in paying for massages. At AMPs they do good massages. Some only do some HJ and less FS. At AAMPs, they are straight up Escort Services. Very high quality MSOG-GFE. Some guys like to get massaged during their in-between time.
Most of this really is just economic, and it is not limited to sex workers or to Asians. Economic reforms will do much more to improve everyone's lives and to give us a long term viable economic system, than does trying to enforce ill defined laws against sex trafficking, or using sensationalism to justify enforcement.
Thank you though for your 5 articles.
SJG
America's Unofficial Religion — The War On An Idea
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hznlp-Dw…
There is reason to believe that stripping does some damage to the average stripper. I think most of us would agree that there are many strippers who are hurt by their involvement in the profession and because we foster that environment by creating the market for strippers we bare some culpability. I'm torn on whether or not I should participate myself. I know the market wouldn't go away if I left it, but I'm conflicted. There are many strippers that I genuinely like, and It pains me to think that they will look back on our time as detrimental to them.
A whole bunch of girls clamoring to get the chance to come here, after being told all the facts by an older long term friend, and in some cases family member, does not sound anything like abusive trafficking.
So I go by my own experience of decades and not the newspapers, which I know are following law enforcement and sensationalizing.
I'll tell you my first AMP experiences, one was directly next door to the Hip Hugger Strip Club in Sunnyvale. I looked in the front lobby and saw dolled up Vietnamese Fashion Plates. So I tried it. The first one gave me a hand job without any prior discussion, and seeing that I was a total innocent, she never even asked for any extra money.
So soon I figured out that you could fuck most of them, though probably not that first one. Her friend tried to fix me up with her, but that would be as marriage material.
And then I figured out if you just played it right, it could become a mind blowing GFE session. And then I found out that in San Francisco that was even more standard as they do a higher percentage of FS. And they dress and act more slutty.
And I remembered that years before, before there was FS in strip clubs, I had read an article in Hustler Magazine about P4P. They talked about street, escorts, and AMPs, and said that the last was often the best price vs quality choice. I remembered that from years before I had always tried it.
And what the article said was to always treat your P4P women just as you would any other woman, not differently as a prostitute.
And so from my first FS, I just treated the girl as though I had just met her at a party and tried to make it happen with her. She was surprised because most guys negotiate. But this way it was more fun. And as no one is soliciting, very legally safe. By the time she starts to talk money, she has been verbally charmed, extensively DFKed repeatedly, and extensively felt up. So sometimes when approached that way, they don't even ask for money, though they will still get it at the end.
I've always said that P4P can be educational, but that it should not be one's primary form of sexual gratification.
And I say again, I think your insistence that AMPs / AAMPs mean abusive trafficking, is mostly racism.
Asian girls working there are most of the time, and never in my own observation, getting it any worse than the White Women who work in the strip clubs that you and others talk about.
SJG