I'm confused

Some people think it means that unless you have an explicit no, you have a yes.

If they can't take a little humor, than fuck em.

I don't necessarily think it promotes rape itself. Promoting "rape culture," though, is entirely different. I have no idea why Forever21 made this men's shirt and how it ever made it onto the market. I agree with what K said. I also think while it may not explicitly promote rape, it does promote victim-blaming (ie "well she shouldn't have said 'maybe' at first!")

"If they can't take a little humor, than fuck em."

There are some things that shouldn't be made into humor, including rape. Obviously the shirt is protected by the 1st amendment, but I have to question the motives of people who would actually find that funny. Remember that there ARE rape victims, so finding humor in that shirt would be at their expense.

I don't think the shirt promotes rape, however it does tend to blame the victims of rape.

How do you get to rape right away? I'm a cynical dude, and I've got serious issues with rapists, but I see it as more of a general jibe at people being unwilling to say what they mean. While it doesn't rise to the level of disgust I have for rapists, pussies who are afraid to say no for fear of hurting someone feelings annoys me too. I'd say my level of annoyance is right about perfect for putting it on a T-Shirt and poking fun at it. Strippers ought to wear that shirt, how many guys say "maybe later" if asked if they want a dance when they mean "no, your ugly bitch, go away."

I don't think it promotes rape so much as it promotes victim blaming. I would think the target consumer for this shirt would buy it to promote the tasteless version of the message and not to promote the positive version you are implying JohnSmith69. But overall, I do agree, that potential victims should feel that they can and should send a clear NO message. Talking with victims, some felt fear or a feeling of being in danger and some (sadly) thought a clear 'no' or 'rejection message' to the male would escalate the situation. But there are males out there who decidedly do become dangerous or violent when rejected (male privilege). So the mixed signal is to (ineffectively) softly let them down. With that said, I have a male mind and not a female mind so some of the thought processes are foreign to me.

"Some people think it means that unless you have an explicit no, you have a yes."

Isn't this true? Unless a woman says no then isn't a guy free to try to get some? I'm not saying he can force her, but if she doesn't clearly say no then most guys are going to push.

I do admit that the sleepy time rapist complicates the issue since he likes to strike when a woman is unconscious.

"Some people think it means that unless you have an explicit no, you have a yes."

'Isn't this true? Unless a woman says no then isn't a guy free to try to get some? I'm not saying he can force her, but if she doesn't clearly say no then most guys are going to push.'

Tf? Aren't you a lawyer? Do you REALLY think a man needs an explicit "no" to prevent a man from, as you say, being "free to try to get some"? What about an IMPLICIT "no"? If a woman implies she doesn't want to fuck, but doesn't EXPLICITLY say "no," is a man free to have his way?

For starters, I can read the shirt as a critique of "flake culture", where people say yes to things knowing they probably won't go.

I don't think it's all that funny or clever, but if this is what offends you, you lead a charmed life. It's not "No means yes, yes means anal".

Nina, I didn't say that a man is free to "have his way." I said he is free to "try to" have his way. There's a difference. Your statement suggests that the guy is trying to force a woman into sex against her will. My statement suggests that the guy is merely trying to convince a woman to have sex when her will is ambiguous.

And yes I think a guy has every right to try and convince a woman to have sex with him whenever she suggests that she might potentially be interested. If she has no interest, she should just say so plainly and clearly. Instead, some women drag men along to get free stuff from them having no intention of ever putting out. Then they claim to be victimized when the guy thought there was a chance that her maybe could turn into a yes.

Why is it to much to expect that a woman communicate clearly and unambiguously?

I'm with shadowcat.

This shirt was an awful idea for a mall type clothing store. They might intend to make people think twice before agreeing to accepting a sexual offer - but I think it's in very poor taste.

I can only imagine the frat guys on spring break saying "she said maybe - and that's close enough for me! Just read what my shirt says!" -

Having kids makes me think of what I'd do if one of my kids was going on a date with a guy wearing that shirt -

"Why is it to much to expect that a woman communicate clearly and unambiguously?"

*too

It might be nice for a woman to communicate clearly with a horny asshole. But it really doesn't matter if she's being ambiguous, kryptic, etc; if you don't have consent to fuck her, DON'T. If you want to act like a rapey fratboy and try to coerce her into saying yes, by all means do so --- but wouldn't you feel kind of gross fucking a girl who really didn't want to in the first place? Or is that where your "subtle parenting skills" come into play?

If nothing else, that T-shirt is in really, exceptional bad taste. I can't see any legitimate reason to buy it, let alone wear it out in public.

I have a two no rule. If the girl says no twice, then I'll stop trying to push it. A lot of times the first time she says no, she doesn't really mean it. It's a fine line though, be careful.

I'd be raped paying that much for a white shirt with a slogan!!!! Rap music promotes rape, literally. Freedom of speech, even tasteless speech, is protected. At least until Trump takes over.

@Ninabambina - I was referring to the way a rapey frat boy might exploit the shirt - that was not my way of thinking at all. I hope I communicated that clearly. I find the shirt in bad taste and I think it borders on victim blaming.

My parenting skills are fine. And I was expressing my concern for the message that others might infer from the shirt.

Cashman1234 - I actually agreed with your statements! And yes, you communicated them clearly. What I said was not directed at you at all, it was directed at JS69 (ans the "parenting skills" is a reference to something JS69 said in a recent thread about his new 18 year old lol).

Ok. Then forget about my second post. I was thinking my example might have been confused to imply my agreement.

For the record: the tee does not offend me either.

i agree that the ambiguity and the subject matter are in poor taste.

that said it isn’t promoting rape in an overt way. i mean Bernie Sanders believing that ALL women want to be gang raped is pretty bad compared to this t-shirt.

and of course there is the psycho rapist new world order liberal from san jose who is convinced that anytime a woman falls asleep she is inviting him to crawl through her bedroom window and rape her.

maybe it has something to do with a liberal socialist mindset. so if you are a liberal and pro-rape then perhaps you should consider spending next new years eve in Cologne. those liberal policies on immigration worked out oh soooooooo well for the liberal europeans

DoctorPhil-Actually SJG is worse than most of you realize he always posts these creepy threads about his new world order where he gets these working girls to service the men he has in his fantasy group. His stuff is extremely sick and very depraved. It isn't liberal socialist, its just sick.

"I have no idea why Forever21 made this men's shirt and how it ever made it onto the market"

i can answer that. Free publicity. How many people even knew what Forever 21 was before they made this shirt?

Phil: Why does a liberal have to be a socialist? I'm pretty liberal but I want private ownership of businesses in 99% of the cases. Your broad brush is confusing the issues.

I myself believe the same as the conservatives: that government needs to butt out. But that includes marriage restrictions, abortion restrictions and drug laws. I'll give the gun nuts their guns if I can have them walk the walk on the rest of government not getting involved in private matters.

@rockstar666 "Why does a liberal have to be a socialist? I'm pretty liberal but I want private ownership of businesses in 99% of the cases. Your broad brush is confusing the issues."

and yet you want socialized medicine.

fuck, confusing the issues is part and parcel of what liberals try to do. i swear you liberals have been so full of delusion pretending that reality doesn’t exist because you think your fantasy is so much better. fuck the progressives visiting the new soviet union went on and on reporting to the rest of the world about how utopia had finally arrived when the communists took over Russia despite witnessing first hand, on the ground, the mass starvation, mass executions and near total anarchy. but those details didn’t matter and the outside world certainly didn’t need to read about them because, well gosh darn it progressivism was on the march dammit.

and now you liberals are spouting the same false narrative about another modern day horror - socialized medicine. wtf? talk about government oppression. allowing the government to control and deny you medical care. shit Sweden will not allow a simple PSA test under their utopian socialized health care because there are too many false positives requiring additional tests. note there has never been a false negative but the socialist retards would rather their subjects not get the test because it might cost too much to follow up. oh yeah, Sweden has the HIGHEST incidence of prostate cancer in the civilized world.

and did you see that the new Canadian socialist retard and his administration have ceased allowing colonoscopies under their mid evil socialized health care system. colon cancer as you know is the second leading cause of cancer death and what’s worse is it is a particularly nasty death. it is also one of the most preventable cancers and most curable IF DETECTED EARLY ENOUGH. but Canadians are fuck out of luck because a colonoscopy costs too much so their overlords have decided wtf, we’ll just look for blood in a stool sample. that only costs 49 cents. of course the test too easily misses blood and now get this, by the time blood shows up guess what? it is probably too late anyway. that’s alright. they don’t need all those sick people hanging around clogging up the already unfreakingbelievably long wait lists anyway.

but socialized medicine, universal health care for all paid for by Big Brother. glory hallelujah, utopia on earth. i bet a few million Russian peasants from the last century wished they could have had some of that shit. yessiree bob

btw Sweden also has the HIGHEST rate of reported rapes in the civilized world. just thought i would mention it in case ninabambina wants to change her mind about which socialist utopia she wants to flee to. or maybe Bernie Sanders is correct and all women really do want to be gang raped. i just don't know anymore...

shit the world is so confusing. hey san_jose_guy how is that tree house coming?

I think the tee-shirt does promote rape. It puts out the idea that the victim is the one who was at fault, for giving unclear messages.

So it encourages people to consider rape allegations as suspect.

I've talked about helping to put a Pentecostal Daughter Molester into San Quentin. I don't give out his name as his name is the same as the daughter's names. But f2f I talk about the episode and the role of his church continually. Many of the people I've talked with do go in for victim blaming and try to say that it was the minor daughter who was at fault for not stopping it. Or they go with the church and just say that such things don't exist, and besides everyone is supposed to forgive.

So I do take exception to that tee-shirt. I mean in a GFE styled encounter, such a misunderstanding never really could happen anyway. It would have to be when a guy just decided to disregard a girl's objections and refusal to engage in escalating foreplay.

If this guy made the tee-shirt in response to a real allegation made against him, I am sorry that such a dispute developed. But I am not going to take side in it because I have not heard both sides of the story. I do take exception to the tee-shirt. Rape allegations are usually responded to by blaming the victim.

And DoctorPhil and twentyfive, I see the drivel you guys have posted. It really does not even deserve a response.

SJG

Akhnaten by Philip Glass, full opera on Indiana University site music.indiana.edu

Phil: Socialized medicine is what every congressman, old person and the entire Western World already have. That's my 1 % for the rest of us. Or 5%..whatever; I don't care. The US spends the most on health care per person in the world and we are dead last in Western life expectancy. More middle class people declare bankruptcy from medical bills than any other single cause. Do you think this is okay? Please..can't we have what every other industrialized country has had for years? Funny how none of them want to adopt OUR system huh.

So Doctor Phil you only want socialism for insurance companies, they are the actual beneficiaries of The American Affordable Care Act. That is what was really forced on the American taxpayers by the medical care fiasco, that the Republicans forced out of the Democrats, with their filibustering and false statements. The AACA was actually written by lobbyist's when the congress and senate declined to perform their jobs and totally abdicated their responsibilities both sides are negligent almost to a point of being criminal. I say get the insurance companies out of healthcare period, why does 30% of every dollar spent on health care, both the medical side and pharmaceutical side end up in the bank account of an insurance company. That is really a crime, a major Ponzi scheme, that has been perpetuated on the public. And to your charge of socialism lets be real, the United States Armed Forces are a socialist organization as are many of our government programs favored by both conservatives and liberals alike so lets stop with the name calling and be realistic, sometimes you win an election and you get to call the shots sometimes we win an election, and we get to call the shots. That's the actual basis of our republic no one group has a monopoly on power so get out and vote for your agenda, as you like but if my side wins, stop your whining and interfering and allow us to govern effectively, and then we might have to do the same.

I don't se why we can't have Medicare for everyone? Other than for the insurance lobbies, why could it be so bad? Would the hospitals suddenly go bankrupt with Medicare reimbursement rates or something?

The Medicare system seems to work well for a number of our senior citizens who use it. So why not use it for everyone?

My employer and I currently spent ~$14K for medical insurance and premiums that I still hardly use because of the deductibles and co-insurance charges. My not apply those funds to the Medicare system?

"btw Sweden also has the HIGHEST rate of reported rapes in the civilized world. just thought i would mention it in case ninabambina wants to change her mind about which socialist utopia she wants to flee to."

Phil, Clearly you are projecting... I never said I wanted to "flee" anywhere, nor did I say I'd go to Sweden. I get that your tiny ballsack is crumpled up because your panties are in a bunch over your political ideologies, but please don't project your insecurities of those ideologies (and whatever else might be hitting your grief bone) onto me.

I think the t-shirt can be viewed as in poor taste but it can also viewed as not about rape or even sex. What about a shirt that says "Don't lead people on"? That's the same message.

I'm also tired of the "promoting rape culture" line that gets thrown around far too easily these days. Look at the Yale basketball team, they tried to show support for their teammate and got blasted for "promoting rape culture" and caring more about sports than sexual assault.

"There are some things that shouldn't be made into humor, including rape."

This is bullshit. Either everything is allowed or nothing is. It also amuses me to no end how often I've heard women suggest that rape in prison is suitable punishment for a man they disapprove of.