Always faking it- TUSCL vs SW perspective

I have a friend who moved away. Tis a pity, she was my ATF. One afternoon, while in the VIP, she came when we were doing a lap dance. She smiled at me. I was pleased to get her off.

Where does SS end and reality begin? ;)

Its best when you can't really tell. You know it could be SS, but if its reality, it makes the memories better. A stripper is human too and can "let her guard down" for a minute, but we as customers should never assume it is real, since even letting her guard down can be fake.

I've had 1 experience where I thought she enjoyed it (orgasm). We were both sweaty at the end of the LD. Looked identical to a pornstar called Stoya.

I can tell if the time was enjoyable by the amount of time spent after the money is gone

I tend to believe that most dancers are faking enjoyment to a greater or lesser degree. The of enjoyment tends to be inversely proportional to the degree of actual sexual content.

So, if she's just talking to you, and seems to be enjoying it, chances are she doesn't have to fake it too much. At the other end, if she's fucking you, it's likely that she's faking it entirely.

There are exceptions all along the spectrum, of course, so there are probably some dancers who are entirely faking even the briefest conversation, and there are others who are sincerely enjoying the sex.

I'm virtually certain the MILF I'm seeing enjoys what we do, partly because she doesn't take my money. My ATF started out assuming she would just be tolerating me, but found herself actually enjoying our time together within a few weeks, and I believe her.

Yes, it's relatively easy for a woman to feign a surface appearance of sexual arousal and enjoyment, but it's much harder to fake the subtler physiological signs. Watch for those.

Note, neither a wet pussy or erect nipples are, in and of themselves, signs of arousal. I've met several girls who could command both with little effort.

My ATF told me none of the girls really enjoy the LDs. But some get enjoyment from the extras.

In my early years of clubbing, getting lap dances only, I occasionally thought, after a particularly heated set of lappers and based on her moans, that the dancer had also come. I eventually realized that these girls were just gifted actresses and/or I was exceptionally naïve. However, in recent years I'm certain that I have caused a few orgasms other than my own in the VIP room, usually from manual stimulation while she kneels next to me on the sofa and blows me but on a couple of occasions, in the heat of the moment, from DATY. It's not something I ordinarily do or (for that matter) thought I would ever do in a strip club, but twice I have yielded to temptation and given as good as I got. One of the two recipients of my oral attention, a somewhat older dancer (late 30s), looked at me in some amazement and exclaimed "You made me come!" as if that didn't often happen. I'm sure it was quite sincere. Now when I enter her club, she's right by my side, hoping to do another VIP with me -- but I've moved on :)

I am smart enough to know they are usually faking it, but I often ignore that to better enjoy my experience.

Now, I have JS a hand full of dancers actually cum while giving me lap dances and I've had several that became very wet (and showed me) as well. I even had one squirt on me one time, but we both weren't wearing any clothing.

Generally, I feel the truth is closer to SW's than TUSCL's. That doesn't mean that, like the SW girls maintain, each stripper is fully repulsed and putting on an acting job that would make Meryl Streep envious. But it just makes sense: if you're not getting civilians this young and beautiful all wet and squeaky on the reg, you may not be doing it to the young beautiful woman who is only there because you're paying her.

That said, I'm going to guess that each of us have had experiences with strippers that can't be explained by the "no stripper ever feels anything for any customers, she's always repulsed and acting" theories of SW. I have, more times than I can recall at this point, had strippers spend time with me and get intimate with me, in ways that didn't make sense if it was just monetary -- particularly because, in so many cases, they didn't ask for money.

So, I think the real story is:

• In most cases, the girls are spending time with you for money, and acting like she's enjoying it is part of the service you're paying for. But, it's also true that the girls like some customers more than others, and how much they're acting varies.
• There ARE cases where it's gone beyond acting, either a right-time right-place overcome-for-whatever-reason one-time thing, or on an ongoing basis where she's enjoying it.

-->" I am smart enough to know they are usually faking it, but I often ignore that to better enjoy my experience."

For the second time in a week, I have to suggest we all follow the advice of the Church of the Subgenius:

"Pull the wool over your own eyes ... relax in the safety of your own delusions"

These maxims are as sound for PLs as they are Subgeniuses :)

Honestly most of us veteran mongers know the reality - the only thing making her wet is the bulge of our wallets. But who cares if she sells it and gets the job done? I'm fine with the effort. Now if she doesn't even make an attempt to at least make it a passable acting job, then it's one-dance-and-see-ya.

I'll settle for her not hating it.

Being 40 or more years older than the dancers I'd be kidding myself to think it was more than faking 90% of the time. A frequent sex partner has told me when she's doing older guys she " just puts her mind somewhere else. She said are you going to get turned on with a woman that much older. Now shut up and keep fucking." On the other hand I've had a few in the club experiences where there was little doubt - the hardened nipples, the curled toes, the clenched thighs and the wetness don't lie. I recently had one dip her finger into her pussy and come out with a string of spittle which she lifted about 15 inches. Afterward she told me she can cum at the drop of a hat. The one time we had sex there was no need for lube. So, my conclusion - the elusive female orgasm does exist and is alive and well.

Sure it's fake 98-99% of the time, at least as to dancer claims to be sexually aroused. I don't really mind as long as she sells it well. But if she does fake porn star moaning then I quit. I'd rather have indifference than that shit.

And there is that very tiny number of times when it's real. I've posted stories of my most two memorable times when a stripper had an orgasm. The first is my article on my fav lap dance. The second is when I met the DS and gave her two daty orgasms. Both dancers were redheads. Not a coincidence.

There was only one dancer I have a high degree of confidence was into to it with me. A few other maybes.

For some women, it's a sexual fetish to make a guy pay for it. They are more likely to be sex workers, for obvious reasons.

I always do a bit of back rubbing with each LD. Doing nothing but pawing at somebody's naughty bits is just a bit too Discovery Channel for me. It's amazing how many hot dancers are somehow hard up for a fucking back rub. But it's not a sexual thing for them, at least not with me.

Most of the time she is faking it. While there are times she may be attracted this is rare. Let's be honest, a top of the line stripper is (presumably)attractive, why would she be turned on to a fat, ugly, probably much older slob?Not likely. Okay a guy might be handsome and all of that but even so to most it's a job. So if you think she is turned on she is likely either a very good actress or less common you are special.

Yeah it is very rare but it has happened to me a few times with girls that I have had GFE 's with many times.

When it comes to Strippers it's 99.9%+ SS. However... IMO it would not be unreasonable for the situation to be more authentic when it is more of a FWB arrangement that some of the professional players on here are running.

Hey, I know that it's my dashing good looks, sparkling personality and savoir de faire that has dancers swooning over me. I know this because the Easter Bunny told me......

I could cum if an ugly fat older woman was sucking my dick. Indeed, with on line dating, this may be closer in my future than I might otherwise have thought. I'd just close my eyes and imagine that she was a gorgeous 18 year old redhead. The same concept applies to strippers.

"Hey, I know that it's my dashing good looks, sparkling personality and savoir de faire that has dancers swooning over me. I know this because the Easter Bunny told me......" lol

this is so true. The tooth fairy told me something like that!

I do believe a lot of the time dancers are being fake. The emotional drain of being real in Every instance would be exhausting. I have had experienced where there does seem to be a great connection and i know she is enjoying the moment. Sometimes it can be very hard to tell.

Either way if she does a good job at selling it, then it is an enjoyable experience

I do believe some dancers who may keep dancing for you all the time might enjoy it. It would explain things if they had an Oxycontin release and that caused bonding to you. Dancers may just say you are one of their regulars but that just covers up the fact that they feel the bond from the OxyContin release that they enjoy during the dance. The OxyContin release may happen with every dance but like dancers, the same I'm sure applies to customers, some are fuglies, some stink on occassion, some are rude, some do not have good personalities. If one finds someone they like without all the negatives, I can understand enjoying the dance and if enjoying the dance gives me a better dance, both of us can be happy. win win.

Of course dancers don't show up for work because they expect to enjoy doing all the dances or they might do it for free for some customers. I rarely had dancers offer free dances with no strings attached. It has happened and a big surprise when it did. In the one case, the dancers giving me a free double table dance claimed I had a secret benefactor but afterwards they never told me who and no one ever claimed they paid them. I thought maybe they did it because they liked me and they got a lot of attention from everyone else in the club because I was close to the front stage. It was a good sales job to get attention from everyone else. They gave me a freebie while getting sales from other guys but did not say they were doing it for free. sneaky too.

In this instance, I think that you're getting a more accurate view from the SW side of the equation. I believe that over 90% of the time, the dancer is faking enthusiasm (except when she's getting paid) and I'm also not delusional enough to believe that I'm the sole exception. Here at TUSCL, you see a fair number of customers under a different impression because (like Fox Mulder) they want to believe. Sometimes, that's enough.

I'll also put it out there that when you're on TUSCL or SW, your not looking at truly representative samples. Only a tiny percentage of strip club customers read/post to TUSCL, and only a tiny percentage of strippers read/post to SW. I wouldn't generate any concrete opinions based on such small subsets.

Many have said it but SW is SW and TUSCL is TUSCL and there's a fair amount of posting on each that plays to a projected audience paradigm rather than to reality. People are going to preach to the choir and maintain their image in their little tree fort or doll house.

When the BS clears my approach is to believe that strippers are for the most part mercenary and what you are getting is an act- but then again there are exceptions to the rule and your mileage WILL vary. In the end it comes down to what Robert Heinlein said through his character Lazarus Long "Women and Cats will do as they please, Men and Dogs should relax and get used to the idea".

Hugh_G_Rection--->"Many have said it but SW is SW and TUSCL is TUSCL and there's a fair amount of posting on each that plays to a projected audience paradigm rather than to reality. People are going to preach to the choir and maintain their image in their little tree fort or doll house." ---->

That is definitely true. What's interesting, though, is nearly everyone in this thread said roughly the same things -- the truth is closer to the SW view than the TUSCL view. Which makes me wonder -- if everyone on tuscl agrees that the girls are usually acting, how did "the girls are not acting, they're really into it" get presented as the tuscl view?

And I think the answer is vaguely interesting. I think all of us on tuscl generally think the girls are usually acting. But, it's harder to keep that view when it's happening to you ... which is why we see posts like, "she was definitely into it, even she said she was bummed we had to stop", "she loved it, her pussy was wet" (okay, that one also reflects how many men have no idea how vaginas work lol), etc. So most tusclers find it easy to believe the girls are usually acting, but some find it harder to believe that in some particular circumstance that happened to them, it was acting.

For myself, I acknowledge that many of the girls are good enough actresses that they can even fool my bullshit detector, especially when my bullshit detector is not getting sufficient blood flow and oxygen since it's been diverted elsewhere, and my brain is practically floating in endorphins. I figured the one and only time I can think she's really enjoying my company, is if we're hanging out for free. Otherwise, I'm happy to do as I said above ... be happy in the comfort of my own delusions :)

I'm digging these responses! As some of you may (or more likely may not) recall, I started my strip clubbing as a customer- hence my participation on tuscl vs SW. After my upcoming boob job I'll be trying the dancer side of things. I'm doing it as much out of curiosity and for fun, as I am to make money. I am the kind of person who gets a thrill from turning other people on...so I imagine I'll enjoy being on the "provider" end of things solely because of that. I know there have to be a fair amount of dancers that maybe share that "kink", or at least I would think so! Anyway, I like the conversation and the responses! And Subra, I guess was generalizing a little poorly with my idea of the tuscl view. The responses certainly indicate that!

I wish I was delusional enough to think it is not an act. It would make it a lot more fun if I could believe my fat fugly ass was turning on a young hot honey but it is not to be. However, I do believe the honeys enjoy spending time with me drinking and talking. There is rarely any "controlled silence" with dancers I am interested in. I'm one of those PL's the dancers come sit with when no one is spending money.

I've had girls leave juice on my pants and funny enough apologize for it. I figure that's harder to fake. Most of the strippers aren't great actresses and bodies respond. I've cum from masseuses that are pretty ugly a little lotion and friction... Bodies respond to sex. I think most strippers pretend most of the time, after all who even wants 30-50 hours of sex a week. But all the time, no.

As for SW remember that SW is a fantasy site. According to SW theology strippers are perfect economic actors who at all times are doing an excellent job maximizing their earn per hour relative to the contact level they are comfortable with. Anyone who has ever been in a club knows that's simply not true.

a) Strippers spend time with customers whom they like over higher earning potential customers. Lots of attention to younger customers for example b) Strippers often fail to cultivate spenders whom they don't like. c) Strippers often overestimate frequent tips rather than big spends. A $400 champagne room is the same as 20 dances (excluding fees). Yet most strippers would feel much better selling 4 dances on average to 10 customers over the course of a nigh vs. a single hour in champagne and then nothing.
d) Strippers often spend lots of time in the dressing room or smoking when they could be on the floor.

Last week I offered a few dances to a girl at a club last week who doesn't like to give dances until she's had a few drinks so she turned me down. In the SW theology that is impossible event. Yet it happened. If SW was preaching an accurate picture of reality and not fantasy you would expect them to be more open to counter evidence to refine their theory of the world.

The SW fantasy is based on what the world looks like in under served markets where clubs are crowded with patrons. Probably what the better weekend nights or crowded nights feel like to them. And those probably are the best nights. Per hour earn is high and contact is low. But the reality is often a regular situation where the dancer::customer ratio isn't so good and its a buyer's not a seller's market. In the SW fantasy strip club money is easy to come by based on hustle and selling skills. In the fantasy girls don't need to invest time cultivating regulars nor do they need to either physically or emotionally connect deeply to make bongo dollars. Customers are total idiots who will gladly give them thousands of dollars nightly for their dancing and conversation skills.

In short I'd come down on usually but not always faking. But more importantly I don't think SW is a particularly good source of information even for dancers.

Yeah sw is full of liars and at best exaggerators, that's not new.

But a few points I disagree with, "Strippers spend time with customers whom they like over higher earning potential customers. Lots of attention to younger customers for example." Not only is this a generalization(the fact that younger guys don't have money) but this is not the case usually. Lots of strippers don't acknowledge me unless I'm at the stage(and some even still ignore me at the stage) or I make first contact. meanwhile I see strippers approach old white guys all the time.

"Most strippers would feel better selling 4 dances on average to 10 customers over the course of the night vs a single hour in champagne and then nothing." I think the the exact opposite. I think most of them would rather sell 1 $400 cr and then do nothing the rest of the night.

@knightwish

knightwish-------->" As for SW remember that SW is a fantasy site. According to SW theology strippers are perfect economic actors who at all times are doing an excellent job maximizing their earn per hour relative to the contact level they are comfortable with. Anyone who has ever been in a club knows that's simply not true. " --------------->

Like chessmaster, I disagree with a number of your points, but I think the paragraph above sums up really nicely the SW model of strippers, and the term "perfect economic actor" gets to the heart of it.

------>"In short I'd come down on usually but not always faking. But more importantly I don't think SW is a particularly good source of information even for dancers." ---------->

Yep. That's why it drives me crazy when strippers (yes, I realize they might just be troll accounts, but take them at face value for a moment) come on here asking questions and some of the guys -- usually the most SW-ified guys, immediately identifiable since they use SW's insulting term "custy" for us -- immediately send those strippers to SW. You can't possible do those strippers a bigger disservice, IMO, and it also gives SW credibility when it really deserves none. Plus, why get a new stripper all radicalized and angry right off the bat?

I do not believe most dancers ask me for dances because they are turned on, they just want money. However some dancers can enjoy the customers and a sign of that is that they keep coming back to you looking happy to see you. That can be fake but I do not believe all of it is fake. I wouldn't have met up with a number of dancers over the years if it was all fake. If I have met up with dancers outside of their work and there was no exchange of money, which I have done so many times I do not remember how often, then they are obviously not doing that for the money. Not all dancers are as fixated on money as the other site leads everyone to believe. Dancers are there to make money but if you think all dancers are working hard at getting every dollar possible, you haven't been to very many strip clubs or looked around very much at the idle strippers.

What is SW?

why are people always curious to browse SW? Everything there is a warped reality of...reality. Of course I still love when some of you post it because some of those threads are DAMN funny.

SW is a train wreck- you don't really want to see it but you just can't look away. I got bounced out of that viper pit years ago and still laugh about it now.

Estafador--->" why are people always curious to browse SW? Everything there is a warped reality of...reality"

Honestly, I can't understand why someone would NOT browse SW! I love it. I enjoy reading about the elaborate consensual reality they've constructed there, the entitlement and vitriol keeps me on a nice even keel, and the fact is, I do sometimes learn interesting things in Hustle Hut. And of course, the best reason to browse SW:

--->"Of course I still love when some of you post it because some of those threads are DAMN funny."

Yes!

Funny thing, I was on a completely unrelated forum (totally different hobby of mine) and some guy posted a thread like, "Gold Mine! Stripper forum!" with a link to SW. There was an epic, massive thread of guys doing exactly what we do here, pulling in threads and quotes from SW and howling over it.

Good times!

@chessmaster

" Not only is this a generalization(the fact that younger guys don't have money) but this is not the case usually. Lots of strippers don't acknowledge me unless I'm at the stage(and some even still ignore me at the stage) or I make first contact. meanwhile I see strippers approach old white guys all the time. "

Well of course that's the economically rational behavior. Under the SW theory though this should be the only behavior. Let's kill the "generalization" first. Yes it is a generalization that younger guys have less money it is also true. The #1 determiner of personal wealth is parental wealth (.37 correlation). The #2 is age. On average wealth increase rapidly up to age 74 in the United States. And if you are interested in income and not wealth then much below 35 is off the charts worse. If you want to explore this further: Atkinson, A. (1971): ”The Distribution of Wealth and the Individual Life Cycle is out of data but excellent. Lambert, P. and J. Aronson (1993):”Inequality Decomposition Analysis and the Gini Coefficient Revisited” also out of date.

For more modern data something like Kapteyn, A., R. Alessie, and A. Lusardi (2005): ”Explaining the wealth holdings of different cohorts: Productivity growth and Social Security”,

Now assuming the above establishes my point was simpler. In the real world strippers, especially young strippers often prefer hang out with cool guys their own age (ones that aren't in general spending) to middle aged men. Totally understandable, I'm sure it is way more fun grinding on guys you are attracted to then guys who remind you of your dad or worse grandfather. But of course if they were purely motivated by economics they should be searching out the less attractive ones.

As far as where would I send a young stripper to get good advice... I think SW women are full of shit on certain issues (like separating positive thinking from reality, and the correlation between hourly earn and contact). The "wishing makes it so" attitude on SW is frankly insane magical thinking and a terrible habit for anyone to pick up. But a) Probably most of their advice is good especially on practical issues b) They are at least semi supportive and can relate.

A dancer with 5 years of working has more strip club experience than the most senior Tuscl's member who is just a customer (so I'm excluding Djs managers...) Moreover we don't get a random sampling of the men and are too biased by our own preferences. I wish there was a better site than SW to send girls to. I'm of the "if you aren't measuring it, then its just your opinion" school of thought in my industry. If I were on on stripper web I'd be using that rich source of strippers to collect good data. Compute don't emote! That would be a far more useful resource.

Tuscl's is mostly about getting value for customers defined different ways. I don't see how that sort of information is even relevant for a dancer at all. What cable companies provide the best experience / value for their customers and which cable companies are the best to work in their data centers are almost totally unrelated questions.

@Chess and @Subraman

Sorry 2nd part of the response was off Subraman's post not Chess's. As far the rest. Glad you liked "perfect economic actor" because that is their view of themselves and one that is far far from true.

Anyway... Chess I guess we are disagreeing. I think Strippers get really unhappy when "the club is dead" and tend not to notice how much they are earning per hour on CRs. I've given a girl piecemeal $400 of the course of 2-4 hours and they are thrilled. The same money in a 1/2 hour CR (with tip) doesn't leave nearly the same impact. There are clubs where the girls is pulling in $8-12/min in the CR base excluding tips. They are earning at the same rate as a top surgeon when they are in there.

If they understood that, they would be cultivating regulars who do CRs much much better.

---> "As far as where would I send a young stripper to get good advice... I think SW women are full of shit on certain issues (like separating positive thinking from reality, and the correlation between hourly earn and contact). The "wishing makes it so" attitude on SW is frankly insane magical thinking and a terrible habit for anyone to pick up. But a) Probably most of their advice is good especially on practical issues b) They are at least semi supportive and can relate. " ------------>

I agree that there are some narrowly-scoped practical issues where the girls can give good advice ... although even there, look at preponderance of advice that the girl who said, "I'm tired of all these personal questions about my tattoos, I'm going to start charging guys $5 to answer them" got. Tons of girls outraged that customers ask about tattoos, and thinking it's an awesome idea to try to charge guys for asking. ONE girl had the sense to tell her, essentially, "you're a stripper, tattoo questions come with the territory". So yes, once in a while there is good practical advice, but more often than not, even on practical issues the replies are atrocious.

But where we might disagree is this: I think there's a 0% chance that a stripper we send to SW is going to stick with reading the few well-answered practical threads. There's no way she won't be exposed to the vast amounts of customer hatred, vitriol, entitlement, fantasy-view-of-SCs, and the other accoutrements of SW, and for a young inexperienced stripper, it might not always be easy to separate the tons of chaffe from the tiny bit of wheat. We do her a horrific disservice exposing her to that site and the attitudes there. And, as I said early, to me it's not a surprise that the main guys who disagree are highly SW-ified guys who have adopted the term "custie" from SW

@Subraman

Everyone hates their customers especially the ones who have hands on contact. The guys at your insurance company make fun of the annoying questions you ask. Your auto-mechanic bitches about the way you take care of your care and how 2 minutes of your time per week could save him hours per year.... The customer hatred is healthy, especially for customer service.

I didn't read the thread there about charging $5 for questions about the tattoo. I assume that sort of stuff was mainly venting. FWIW Interesting I read the thread here and had the opposite opinion of most of you guys. The strippers who are focused on getting the nickels I love. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten CR level treatment in exchange for $30 in extra stage tips and 2x $18 drinks with premium liquors. Please bring on the strippers counting the nickels and getting all happy about charging me $5 for BS questions succesfully and thus not noticing the $100 they aren't charging me! In general the more place I can make cheap concession to a vendor to avoid making big concessions to a vendor the better. I don't like paying $25 per bag for luggage on an airplane and $79 for the ticket upgrade but $25 + $79 is a heck of a lot less than the extra $250-400 for the ticket the non nickels version would be costing me.

So bad advice but I thought the Tuscl advice equally bad. I think most customers would respond very negatively to the $5 and even the me type customer that would be amused doesn't have the girl's best financial interest at heart. But I my guess is that the thread is mainly just venting... "I wish I could charge them $5 every time I had to answer that damn question" rather than "I really intend to go in and try and charge them $5 every time I have to answer that damn question". Given what strippers put up with I find the vitriol on SW not too bad. I would expect much worse.

The girls there are bad from separating their fantasy from their reality. And that is very unhealthy and impractical. OTOH I wonder if that's part of what makes successful strippers able to do what they do. They mentally escape and build a fantasy where they aren't doing what they are doing. For example the frequent OTC stripper who doesn't think she's hooking.

Now the sense of entitlement is weird. And I would normally think quite damaging. Its hard for me to even think of an upside for that what since it runs counter to good economic sense. Not getting that: a LD is $4-6 / min a CR $5-12 / min ... and that is a boatload of money if you can earn even a substantial fraction of that with any consistency. The goal is to bring up the consistency not the per hour.

The "dear custy" thread, where they basically all write letters saying how disgusting, perverted and pathetic the customers are, was the most fascinating to me. So much anger!

They be some bitter bitches over there.