OT: Race and NFL
Clackport
Washington
Let's start with the NFL. Black players make up around 65% of the league, but yet only 5 out of 32 NFL head coaches are black. I look at someone like the Detroit Lions head coach, he's probably gonna get fired in the next couple of weeks (he's black by the way). He was there 2 years, and made the playoffs once. The previous Lions head coach (white guy) coached there 5 years and made the playoffs once. Hue Jackson (black guy) coached the Raiders for one year and led them to 8-8 but yet was fired after that. The current Raiders head coach (white guy) went 7-9 in his first year, but there's definitely no talk about him getting fired, in fact everything is positive in Oakland, they say the future is bright there, and that the current coach did a great job there this year. When the black Raiders head coach got fired after one 8-8 season, he didn't get another head coaching opportunity, he had to go be a secondary coach, then offensive coordinator for Cincinnatti. Finally there's talk of him of getting a head coach chance this offseason. White head coaches like the Rams coach and Jaguars coach haven't made the playoffs in their 3-4 years tenure as head coaches for those teams, but yet there's no talk about them getting fired. I guarantee you a black coach would have not gotten that long of a leash if it was them. The current Broncos head coach (white guy) previously coached the Texans for eight years, and only made the playoffs twice in that span, but yet after he was fired, he got to be the Broncos head coach.
So what I'm saying is black head coaches are getting a shorter leash than their white counterparts, and when black head coaches are fired, they don't get another head coaching opportunity for awhile, they have to go be coordinators for awhile. Seeing all of this definitely frustrates me, and it ain't right.
Rex Ryan (white guy, currently Bills head coach) previously coached the Jets and missed the playoffs four straight years to end his tenure with the Jets. Guess what, he got hired as the Bills head coach right after that. The current Jets head coach (black guy) went 10-6 in his first year with the Jets. You can best believe if the Jets don't make the playoffs next year he will definitely be fired, and he probably won't get another head coaching opportunity again.
End of rant
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but gotta point out MIke Pennine in Cleveland fired after two years. Lovie Smith stayed a little too long in Chicago and hasn't done shit with the Bucs (he's not getting fired anytime soon)
Hue Jackson had a power struggle in Oakland so they cut him. Our GM Reggie Mckenzie is black, a lot of fans were calling for his job a couple years ago, but he's still there.
NFL is a win or go home league regardless of color
I have to point out Marvin Lewis has been given a long leash in Cincinnati. They could have easily fired him early in his tenure but felt as though they had the right guy and stuck with him.
Look at the Steelers model, if you feel you have the right guy you work with him to make changes not fire him just because of a dubious season.
If you fire a coach that quickly, it means you (the gm or owner) fucked up the hiring process in the first place. But no one wants to admit they were wrong when they can blame someone else.
Jim Harbaugh was a top-notch coach and still got fired even though he was winning/producing.
Chip Kelly got fired after 3 seasons where 2 of those were winning seasons.
If the NFL does not have issues having black players b/c they add to the bottom-line; they should not have issues w/ black coaches if they add to the bottom-line.
However, the typical entry level position for a coach is to become a graduate assistant. One must be willing to make a big sacrifice. You must continue your studies in grad school and be willing to work for a very meager stipend.
For whatever reason, more white kids than black kids want to do this. The lack of black grad assistants in college eventually trickles down to why there are so few black NFL coaches.
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I would be more willing to concede that college football has some issues with coaches and race.
When blacks only account for 13 percent of the general population why are they so well represented as players in the NBA and NFL? Are whites getting discriminated against?
Blacks will not argue that they have any physical genetic advantages to explain this because it could then be argued that there are inherent differences due to race and they are genetically lacking in other areas.
It is commonly argued that sports is the one area where meritocracy truly exists. I have not heard a good argument for it to only exist on the playing field and not the sidelines.
Mic drop.
What do you guys have to say about the valid points I made about Rex Ryan, Gary Kubiak, Jim Caldwell, Jim Schwartz, Jack Del Rio, Hue Jackson, Jeff Fisher, whatever the fuck the name of the Jaguars coach, Todd Bowles, Marvin Lewis etc. You can't tell me this is all just coincidence. Hell the Ravens head coach (white) was previously a freaking special teams head coach, and then he got the head coaching job for the Ravens. That hasn't happened for a black guy, it won't, and it never will.
Coaches get fired all the time for various reasons and these reasons usually apply equally to both races.
Since black coaches are a minority and since we still have race issues in this country; it's thus easy to make a circumstantial leap.
The real reason is that black people are not as smart.
There – you happy now.
LOL.
I'll be waiting.
BTW Jacksonville is owned by a minority.
"Our decision was a difficult one and based on philosophical management issues, not on coaching ability,'' Daniel Snyder said in a statement.
They went on to hire Steve Spurrier. Another in the fine line of Daniel Snyder decisions.
Jester- the coach you're talking about that that lasted one year went 2-14 in his only year. That's not a good example.
Flagooner it's a player's league. Players determine the outcome of the game. Coaches can have the greatest schemes, but without players there's no effect. Black players are generally more fast and athletic than their white counterparts, so that's why there's so many black players. It's not rocket science.
I'm not saying it's racism, but there is definitely a race problem in the NFL. Some of you that think the NFL doesn't have a race problem probably think there's no racism in America anymore.
First you seem to be suggesting there aren't enough black coaches because they are mostly black players. Given the coaching pool this is meaningless.
Then you make some vague assertion that black coaches get a "short leash" by tossing out a handful of examples.
It sounds like you want there to be a race problem in the NFL.
Jester I have no idea what you're talking about on the second paragraph. Because there's many black players, that's not why there's not many black coaches. What the fuck does that mean? I said nothing of that nature. Reread my thread. I don't seem to be suggesting anything. I made it fucking clear what I think.
This discussion reminds me of something I heard a while ago. The first sign that you are doing better in racial relations is when you hire a black man. But far more progressive is when you can fire them without fear that someone will say it is racially motivated.
Are you going to rebut my point about meritocracy?
I didn't think so.
Also, anyone picking a bias against black coaches can use confirmation bias to argue their side, but it doesn't mean that it's correct. Confirmation bias is what politicians use to drive an agenda, and the OP is using confirmation bias to drive the agenda that the NFL is biased against black coaches. Highly subjective with no strong correlation to the accusations, as several posters on this discussion have countered effectively to the OP's topic.
Ah yes, now we're all just a bunch of white racists who don't "get it". I already said I think there are race issues at the college level.
The very first point you raised was there are 65% black players but only 15% black coaches. Given the pool of potential head coaches those number are irrelevant.
So your only argument is a few hand picked examples of a so called "short leash". Anything contrary to that is just an "exception". Show a trend and you might have a leg to stand on, but you haven't.
There are issues on both-sides but often times no matter which side one is on most people seem to look at it mainly from just one perspective/side – it's the human condition I suppose.
But – I can only assume things will get better with time b/c IMO they *have* gotten better w/ time.
Nah – I wouldn't go that far.
The next "racism" issue would be to address is why has there only been one black quarterback ever to win a Super Bowl, considering over 65% of blacks represent the NFL players association. This would seem to be an easier issue to argue than black coaches getting fired. Better yet, let's research how many black quarterbacks have been given a short leash at their position like RG III!?
Your right flagooner, this takes too long to type on the phone for such ignorance. Nice bait and switch tactic. Didn't think Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson would come on TUsCL.
If anything the NFL could be the least racist organization out there.
So far I have literally seen no valid points countering my argument, it's still early though. I am definitely open to seeing valid points on the other side. Yes there will be white coaches that get the same fate as black coaches. That could be because of a number things. Some of the situations I laid out for the black coaches were definitely not racial, but you're gonna tell me none of them had anything to do with race. I can't buy that.
I'll respond again when I got some valid points countering my argument. I've laid out white coaches compared with black coaches in various situations over the past 5 years. I'm not going back 20 years to find something that supports my argument.
Jester- so because I say some white people think there's no race problem in America, that means I think they're racist?? Sorry man you're a dumbass for that statement.
I'm done with this thread, I'll check back in tomorrow.
today the cleveland browns hired the character played by jonah hill in the "moneyball" movie for the position of chief strategy officer. the browns hired a white guy working for an mlb baseball team to run the FOOTBALL team. wouldn't someone like denny green be a more logical hire? it was his players that made the super bowl under whisenhunt who lucked out with a qb switch. then again it is the browns.
Most of your statements make you a dumbass.
I think the most telling statement you have made is this one " There are some white folks that wanna close their eyes and say race problems don't exist anymore. SMH. I guess you would have to go through the prejudice to have proper perspective. " that kind of statement says to me anyway if you are a white guy you have no right to disagree with me on any matter of race cause you have actually closed your mind at that point. BTW I would never say that there are no race problems, but there problems on both sides, my perspective will never be the same as yours, but you don't see things the same way I do either, so if you just approach everything from your perspective we wont ever solve anything .
And again I don't agree with your conclusion about the NFL>
OK, let's fix this to your satisfaction, Get the black players down to 12% of the league then all is OK, correct? NO? Well maybe, the teams wan't to win and they do whatever it takes.
You are implying that owners are racists when deciding on coaches, but OVERWHELMINGLY NOT with players!
Welcome to my ignore list, IDIOT!
Josina Anderson on ESPN. Let's be honest. She is not an attractive woman. I doubt Papi would even get a dance with her. If a white woman looked like her, she wouldn't even sniff the chance at working at a major network.
Had no idea who Josina Anderson is. Googled her and my monitor didn't crack, but it did wobble a little :)
As far as the race thing goes: http://xkcd.com/552.
This is often cited when talking about lack of black HCs; but the thing is that what it takes to be a good NFL player are not the same skills that take to make a good HC – most good NFL players thrive b/c of their god-given athletic ability (physical strength and speed) and these are not the skills that are required to be a good HC.
More often than not; most good HCs were mediocre to bad players (mediocre starters at best if not bench guys) – more often than not good players that go into coaching are often not successful b/c it takes different skill sets.
First, 65% of NFL players are black. The average player salary is nearly $2M/yr. That is more than a lot of "HICE's" (HIghly Compensated Employees) make in a decade. The minimum 2015 rookie salary of $435K is ~ 75% more than what a Delta or United Boeing 747 Captain would make. For such an individual to get to that point would take 20 years or more service with the airline. I'm sure there are a lot of white folks in corporate America who would love to make that kind of salary. FYI, minimum 2015 veteran salaries $585K for a 2 yr. player, $970K for a 10 yr. player. How's that for annual raises ? That's an average annual raise of 7.2% over 10 years, which is 2-3 times the rate of inflation in the last quarter century. That doesn't sound like a race problem to me there. I'll address the coaches angle in a second post.
Does Marvin Lewis (Bengals) have a long enough leash for you ? His 13 seasons with same team is exceeded only by Bill Bellichick. Yes, as you probably know, he has a winning record (112-92-2), and has coached Bengals to playoffs 5 straight years. Lets not forget that he had losing seasons in 3 out of 4 years (2007-2010), yet the club ownership stuck with him. Another thing is the "doughnut" playoff record of his (0-6, hopefully rectified this coming weekend.). Tom Coughlin, a coach with 1 year less tenure with the Giants, is stepping down. With one less year than Lewis, he has a winning playoff record (try reading wiki on this versus ranting), and 2 Super Bowl rings to show for it.
I'll add that life isn't fair, and repeat my acknowledgement that NFL team ownership is an old boys club. Fwiw, I feel that Tony Dungy got shabby treatment when he was let go from Tampa Bay Bucs after all he had done for the ball club. Yet I don't recall one peep from him griping about how he got screwed over because of his race. All he did was build another team (Indianapolis Colts) in the same manner he built the Bucs, and collected a Super Bowl ring along the way. I'd suggest that you strive to model is example, rather than keep pulling the race card in internet rants.
Lovie sucked. So did Wannstedt. By the end, everyone of every race and gender wanted him GONE!
@M_F_M- Yeah they were headed in the right direction until they lost their final 4 games.
That the Bucs have changed head coaches more often than someone with a bad case of diarrhea changes their underwear speaks more loudly about the Bucs organization than of the coaches that were fired.
No the Glazer's are just plain stupid. This firing had nothing to do with race, it had to do with idiotic owners who think you can have sub standard talent overall (they have drafted some nice pieces the last couple of years) and win right away. The next coach will be lucky because because the young talent will start to come into it's own if they follow up with more good drafts. But unless they hire Dirk Koetter they could take a step back because of the time it takes to adjust to a new offense. Watch out for Todd Haley to get an interview here as he had a relationship with the gm from their Arizona days. I know nfl jobs are scarce but even with a future stud qb in Winston the ownership would scare me going there knowing you might not get the time to build your program.
Koetter is a hot commodity and was going to be interviewed for a head coaching job. Tampa Bay was quick to pull the trigger to keep him. They didn't want to lose another talented assistant coach -- like they lost Mike Tomlin
When I say something that's important, it's when I've analyzed it and seen different point of views, I don't say something just to say something. The reason there ain't many black starting quarterbacks is that IN GENERAL black players are more athletic, and you can't rely on your athletic ability to be quarterback (Michael Vick).
My main point isn't about there being 4 or 5 black head coaches, I really don't even touch on it except of one mention of it. I said IN GENERAL black head coaches have a shorter leash than their white counterparts. I didn't say that occurs every time, so you guys pointing out a couple of instances where a white guy got a short leash and a black guy got a long leash is not what I'm driving. I also said there's no way all of the black firings and subsequently tough to get another head coaching opportunity has all to do with race, but can you really none of those situations have to do with race. My third main point is that GENERALLY (not all the time) that when a black guy gets fired from being a head coach, it's very difficult for him to get another head coaching opportunity, he USUALLY has to be an assistant and coordinatoror or don't have a job. Those are my three main points, I think I made that pretty clear.
Raheem Morris, 3 years as a head coach, 2 losing seasons, one 10-6 season. He will never get another head coaching opportunity again. Leslie Frazier took the Vikings to the playoffs with freaking "Christian Ponder at QB, he will never get another head coaching opportunity. Mike Singletary went 18-22 in 3 seasons, not spectacular obviously, but he will never get another head coaching opportunity. If Todd Bowles in his second year with the Jets doesn't make the playoffs, he will be fired, and he will never get another head coaching opportunity.
I wasn't gonna get into quarterbacks, but Vince Young has a 31-19 career record, and he wants to be in the NFL, he's been out of the NFL for years. You're gonna tell me he's not at least good enough to be a backup when perennial losers like Sam Bradford, Ryan Fitzpatrick and Blaine Gabbert are starting in this league!? JaMarcus Russell, number one overall pick for the Oakland Raiders, 3 years and he's out of the league, he had a decent second year, he's not good enough or has potential enough to be a backup or get another chance to start? RG3 won rookie of the year his first year in the league, tore his ACL in the offseason and struggled with that in his second year, he was injured and played a few games in his third year, obviously Kirk Cousins is starting this year, I guarantee when the Redskins release RG3, he will have to be a backup for another team or be out of the league.
Wake up people, this is right in front of your eyes!
Waaaaaahhh! "Let's show how the MAN victimizes black people!"
Waaaaaahhh! "I'm not an a professional sports player, but I want to point out a non story because I have nothing better to do with my time!"
Those who bring out the race card blindly are the ignorant ones.
SJG
That goes for most coaches – Joe Philbin recently got fired by the Dolphins and no-one expects him to get any HC considerations now nor in the future.
There are plenty of former HCs that would like to be HCs again and no-one will give them a chance; this is more of the norm than the exception.
Mike Sherman went from Packers HC to Texas A&M HC (demotion) to Dolphins OC to now being a H.S. head-coach.
"...they got big dicks"
I hope you aren't speaking from experience!
What are the races of the OWNERS? Probably all white, a few Jews. In terms of the [psychotic] OP's original question, that is pretty telling.
Ah Jeez Nina, what kind of leftist crap are your professors spoon feeding you?
A few years ago Vikings player Adrian Peterson compared the NFL to "modern day slavery" and several years ago during contract negotiations, NBA player Latrell Sprewell said an offer of $30 million was "insulting" and "I got a family to feed".
i thought you were smart enough to not buy into that shit.
How is literally everything you don't agree with 'leftist crap'?
Enough. They're all still rich, anyway
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-foot…
I would suggest for those who think I'm playing the "race card" to read the article. As I said earlier in the thread I don't just say something just to say something, I say it when I've analyzed it. What is said in the article is pretty common knowledge to me, but I realize it might be new for some of you who haven't really looked into the issue.
That right there sets the slanted-tone of the article.
“... a study from professors at Georgetown, George Washington, Emory and Iowa State University that noted there is a huge loophole in the rule: It doesn't apply to coordinators or position coaches ...”
It's a stupid rule that should not even apply to HC positions.
“... That's part of the reason why there were only nine non-white defensive coordinators and three non-white offensive coordinators this season ...”
IDK how the non-white DCs breakdown; but I assume they're black? And if this is the case then that makes up 30% which is greater than the 12% of AAs in the nation as a whole.
This was taken directly from the ESPN report. As long as someone is most qualified, which is what issue needs to continue to come to the front. We've all come along way no matter what race, color, or creed you belong to.
“... Papi you keep comparing the rate of African Americans in NFL coaching to the rate of African Americans in America. What does that have to do with anything …”
What other metric should be used? You did state that most NFL players are black as a implied-metric as to why there should be more black HCs. It seems you consistently dismiss any examples that are contrary to your particular view and only give credence to examples that support your POV.
Perhaps we can get to an answer if you can answer why there aren't any starting white cornerbacks – I'm not talking about it's half and half; or slightly majority black CBs; there are ZERO starting white CBs – that is overwhelming – why is that not racism?
BLACK PLAYERS ARE IN GENERAL MORE ATHLETIC AND IN GENERAL RUN FASTER THAN THEIR WHITE COUNTERPARTS, FOOTBALL IS ABOUT SPEED AND ATHLETICISM, THAT'S WHY MOST NFL PLAYERS ARE BLACK.
Call it what you want, but there it is.
There have been numerous NFL and college HCs and more often than not they have not done very well.