"Arab" vs. "Muslim"

The only Muslims who are terrorists are the ones that follow the teachings of the Koran.

Is that like "Blacks vs Niggas" lmao

JS69: Good one. Whenever I read references to "radical Islam" in the media, I think "Why be redundant?" GACA: No, it's really nothing like that at all. LMFAO.

I think everyone is wording things wrong. The only terrorists are Muslim

And of course they are radical Islamists, which does not apply to all Muslims, so no. that term is not redundant

All Muslims are not terrorists but all terrorists are Muslim.

Most Muslims are Sufi's. They are mild mannered conservative people. Where I live they are numerous, and some have started running for office. We also have Bahi's, usually Caucasians, kind of like the Muslim version of Unitarian Universalists.

Also a dancer I liked very much at the Sunnyvale Hip Hugger was Muslim. Her family left Iran in 1979 to get away from the Islamic Radicals who took over, betraying the student uprising against the Shaw.

This dancer was a much lived OTC provider, and overall one of the smart girls.

That Saudi Arabian Royal Family sect is wacko. That is a political movement. It's like the Islamic version of Aryan Nations. They are a small minority. They are a foreign monarchy installed by British intelligence. They have always been pro-NAZI too.

theweek.com

And the Christian Fundamentalist attacks on family planning clinics, as well as the bombing of the Oklahoma City Federal Building are White Christian Fundamentalist terrorism, as are the attacks made some years back on Amtrak trains.

SJG sites.google.com

Mick Taylor, Red House youtube.com

+1 SJG

Thanks

SJG

I didn't realize McVeigh was Muslim.

And so was the unabomber.

The only.Muslim I know personally is ethnically african. And the only arab I worked with was christian. Her family fled iraq persecution.

I know of a Caucasian man, a Bahi, and VP with Cisco Systems. Some various Muslim groups came to him after the 911 incident to get him to try and diffuse tensions and prejudices in the work place.

Remember, terrorists are trying to destroy the peace, trying to make people and nation states react.

SJG

OK, SJG you convinced me. Since some Muslims reject the teachings of their leader to kill all non-Muslims, let's just let them turn America into one big fucking mosque. Sure some of them will be mass murdering terrorists, but no need to worry about that since the rest of them are peaceful.

SJG ..thanks for the history lesson that has nothing to do with the rise of radical Islam the last 15 years. Way to stick to the point.....SJG -1

" let's just let them turn America into one big fucking mosque."

The above statement is the same kind of racism which America has been plagued with for a long long time.

And mikeya02, your own statement makes my point, radical Islam is a fairly new invention. It has very little to do with their faith tradition.

There are political issues which underlie radical Islamicism, very similar to the political issues which underlie radical Chrisitainism.

SJG

I strongly prefer the US remain a secular nation.

"I strongly prefer the US remain a secular nation."

Our Constitution makes this an absolute legal requirement.

I also recommend:

amazon.com

SJG

I don't give a flying fuck who you are, what you do or what you believe as long as you live peacefully and let others live their life anyway they prefer.

I think you're right. The stripper meant "Christian Arabs" when she said "Christian Muslims."

Not all terrorists are Muslims. You can find terrorists from many religions and political persuasions. For example, there are Christian terrorists. Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber, and many other far right militias believe in the Christian Identity Movement. Anti-abortion Christians have attacked abortion clinics and murdered abortion doctors. And the Ku Klux Klan, American's biggest terrorist organization, has claimed to be defending Christianity.

As a Christian, I find Christian who engage in terrorism to be repugnant. I'm sure that most Muslims feel the same about Muslim terrorists.

SJG's windbaggery is, as usual, replete with falsehoods and half-truths. Here are a few:

• No, most Muslims are NOT Sufis.
• Even if most Muslims are mild-mannered people, they are strangely silent in their condemnation of acts of terrorism by their fellow Muslims. Also, large pluralities if not majorities in one Muslim country after another support suicide bombers and the eradication of Israel.
• No, Timothy McVeigh was NOT a Christian, so his heinous act at Oklahoma City was not an example of "White Christian Fundamentalist terrorism". In a letter written to a newspaper shortly before his execution, he described himself as an "agnostic". (See democraticunderground.com)
• Since Islam isn't a race, JS69's line "let's just let them turn America into one big fucking mosque", itself an expression of his exasperation with the aforementioned windbaggery, is NOT racist. When essentially all of the terrorism in the world originates with Muslims, opposition to further Muslim immigration to the U.S. is reasonable, not racist. Why is it so difficult for the Left to understand that?

That's enough for now.

^^^Can't argue with that.

Jack, your comments assume that both Muslims and Christians are peace loving religions and that those who engage in violence in the name of their religions are a minority. That sounds nice, but it ignores the teachings of the two faiths. While the bible has plenty of stories of violence in it, there is nothing you could possibly read to command Christians to kill non-Christians. Thus Christians who engage in violence in the name of their faith are acting totally on their own, not as Christians.

In contrast, the Koran is full of very explicit commands for all believers to kill non-Muslins who will not convert. The Koran also teaches peace but the peace passages are in Mohammed's early "revelations." His later "revelations," which Muslims recognize as more authoritative, command violent death to non-Muslims. This is because Mohammed started out peacefully trying to convert people but when that didn't work he found it much more effective to slaughter those who refused to convert.

Speaking in generalities about faith and treating Islam and Christianity as two similar peaceful paths to God ignores the teachings of Mohammed. He was a murderous lunatic, and his most faithful followers are acting in his footsteps. I take no comfort in the fact that some Muslims so far have decided to reject their faith's command that they murder me.

I'm not saying too much but many in Egypt believe Obama supports the Muslim brotherhood, a group that was overthrown. The Muslim brotherhood is for the overthrow of Israel. You would think any friend of the Muslim brotherhood would try to become friends with Iran and possibly snub the Israeli prime minister, oh, that is a plan in progress isn't it? Well if you vote for these kinds of people, you are in agreement with everything they do.

Obama has already destroyed in the US constitution in my opinion by forcing church groups to pay for something they are religiously opposed to such as requiring religious groups such as the Catholic Church to pay for contraception. That's how the Nazi's took over Germany, take away freedoms one by one and no one stood up to oppose it. Our constitution and rights are not being stood up to. The few who do, well they are getting shot and killed.

I knew some Arabs in college. I never asked what religion they practiced and they never asked me what religion I was that I can remember. If people mind their own business and don't try to enforce their beliefs and rules onto me, I'm good with them. I just remember this one guy was a crazy driver. He told me in Lebanon, they don't have speed limits. He drove like someone was attempting to shoot us or something. Of course a suitemate who wanted to catch a ride with me somewhere when I told him I was in a hurry might be saying the same thing about me. That was before I knew what drifting was or that I heard you might get a ticket for sliding your car around corners if caught. I started driving more normal afterwards.

Alright - several people on here seem to know much more about the Muslim religion and idealization than I.

I have one question that I can't figure out.

I live on a large college campus, and I see (now more than ever) tons of caucasian girls wearing habibs. I know that doesn't mean that all of them are Muslims, but I would bet majority of them are. My question is why would these women convert to Muslim when (IMO) women are treated like 3rd class citizens, behind men and behind children.

Am I missing something here?

Ok Shailynn - you won't see anyone anywhere on any campus wearing a habib (that means sweetheart). The correct worf is HIJAB. And their hair is covered up, so how do you know that they are all caucasian and not just lighter skinned arabs? Why can't caucasians be born into the Muslim faith? (rhetorical question. They can).

And about the assertion by some people that all terrorists are Muslims. Ridiculous. Is the KKK not a terrorist organization? I guess anglo-saxons can't be terrorists right? But white males are almost always the ones involved in mass shootings here in the US. But let's ignore them since they're white Americans and let's focus on radical muslims an ocean away from us and act like they're representative of muslims in general while ignoring what's going on in our own backyards because what's going on in our own neighborhoods doesn't involve muslims and thus gives no bigots a platform to spew their hatred of muslims.

Yes, the KKK is a terrorist organization -- but its influence in the world is vanishingly small, unlike that of Muslim terrorists. Yes, almost all mass killings are perpetrated by white men -- but the number of their victims is tiny compared with the worldwide toll of victims of Islamic terror. I don't hate Muslims -- but I'm realistic enough to observe that Muslims are responsible for almost all terrorist acts in the world, and that the followers of this "religion of peace" are seldom critical of terrorists.

I also agree that it's ridiculous to claim that all terrorists are Muslim. The actual percentage is only about 99%.

I would consider taking in 10,000 Middle Eastern refugees when Saudi Arabia, or Kuwait, or the UAE, or any other of those oil-rich oligarchies takes in 10.

Since French Nationals and Belgium Nationals were the terrorists in the France attacks, I think we should welcome the Muslims and keep out the French and Belgium's..

Actually the killing done to establish Christian monotheism far and away exceeds all the killing done in the Roman persecutions of Christians. So at core, Christianity is just as violent as Islam, and as violent as a brutal state like the Roman Empire.

From God against gods

amazon.com

and citing data in

amazon.com

And of course, the Bible is by far the most violent book in the entire world. And the New Testament is not a stand alone treatise. When it is taken as such, it is just a polemic, very much like the Koran. Both of these must be read in conjunction with the Old Testament.

So today we have Christian, Islamic, and Jewish terrorism groups, and many of these are openly or covertly state sponsored.

SJG

ELP, Pictures at an Exhibition youtube.com

Nina, before you decide to hold your I love Muslims parade, you should do something radical and learn about their religion. Read what the Koran says about how an observant Muslim should treat non-Muslims. Don't just google it and get others' perspectives, but read the book for yourself as I have. Then you can address the issues from an informed perspective.

My views on Muslims are not based upon prejudice. They are based upon the words of the homocidal, pedophile maniac that Muslims believe to be gods messenger to them. I desire to keep Muslims out of our country for the same reasons that I would try to keep practicing adherents of Adolf Hitler out of our country. I know what they believe, and I'd rather not have them try to kill me, you, or anyone else who rejects their faith.

Though there is sometimes tolerance in Christian churches, there is also such tolerance in Islamic groups.

The Bible is a book of eugenics and extermination. The New Testament is a kind of corrective to the Old Testament, but it cannot be read alone.

The history of Christianity against paganism and polytheism, as well as against Islam, is just as violent as radical Islam is today.

Most Islamic people just want to live in peace. Radical Islam draws followers because of political and economic injustices in those countries. These are exactly the same reasons that fundamentalist Christianity draws adherents. We are talking about things like lack of access to healthcare and lack of livable wage jobs, and a crumby educational system.

If I lived in a country occupied by US troops or subject to US drone strikes, I would not be doing any less than these Islamic terrorists are.

SJG

Mussorgsky - Pictures at an Exhibition youtube.com

If I lived in a country occupied by US troops or subject to US drone strikes, I would not be doing any less than these Islamic terrorists are.

To SJG you are an idiot. we didn't start this fight, but sooner or later we will get a leader with balls, then we will finish it.

The longer we fight, the more terrorists there will be.

So far the sorts of things which have happened in France have not come here. But if this fight goes on long enough, there will be suicide terrorists with AK-47's right here.

And just as in France, where most of them were French citizens, most of our terrorists will be US Citizens.

This always was a situation just like Vietnam. The longer it goes on, the worse it will get.

And of course the West and the US started this fight, it goes back to colonialism. British intelligence installed the House of Saud and US intelligence installed the Shaw of Iran.

Until those countries are secular democracies, this war is going to continue and EXPAND. And until the US is actually a secular pluralistic democracy, this war is going to continue and EXPAND.

Kevin Phillips is a Republican and former Nixon staffer. He got out because Regan was just too much.

amazon.com

Phillip's is point here is that most of the support for this war in the Middle East is coming from ultra conservative Protestants, Catholics, and Jews. The single factor which unifies these groups is a phenomenally high birth rate.

SJG

Jews have a high birth rate ? You must be smoking something

Sjg you should move to the middle east and spout your pro kill white christian rhetoric there, i bet they welcome you with open arms before they chop your coward head off.

Well, I'm not actually one of their countrymen, or of their culture either. I was saying that if I were, I would be doing just what many of them are, and I'd be one of the more militant.

So as an American I want my country to start to show some sense. We can find a way to have peace and to avoid more White Christian supremacy here at home.

And as far as the birth rate of Jews, overall it is low. Jews have not replaced those lost during the holocaust. But the reason for this is that most American and European Jews are quite secular.

But among the Ultra Orthodox, a small minority, the birth rate is extremely high. And it is these and similarly ultra conservative and high birthrated Protestants and Catholics who have provided the bulk of the support for these wars in the Middle East, and really a war against Islam.

SJG

ELP, Tarkus, 1971 youtube.com

If one goes by the federal numbers, it is blacks who do much of the killing (of each other.) The whites are outliers and seem to have become propaganda for gun control nuts. (Like the kind who don't live in ghettos and want the picket fences to not have gates on them. The ones who live in the not so perfect places want protection from the not so perfect neighbors.)

And since I bring up neighbors, neighborhoods change with who moves in. Something that all the multicultural types seem to over look. That all be become good neighbors and shower us with examples of their culture like tacos and ribs. Ah, to live on a college campus with it's "safe" zones.

The reality has proven it's self other repeatedly. Not everyone wants to be the white griswall of the neighborhood. And when enough move in and the neighborhood numbers change, the culture of the neighborhood will change too.

Just ask the native americans.

I think that less than 7% of Jews are ultra orthodox, but man you are lame these people are the ones that want to wipe Israel off the map. They are like you, there is no compromise, that is where my problem is. I do believe in live and let live, but if you want to kill me and announce your intentions, I will do my damndest to get you first. You also put that out there spouting crap from obscure sources to try and prove your point. Just use logic and have some respect for the opinions of others, there is always more than one answer to most things .

" I think that less than 7% of Jews are ultra orthodox"

Perhaps so. So then this is why they can have a very high birth rate, whereas Jews as a whole do not.

As far was "Wiping Israel of the map", that probably started in the 40's with the Saudi Royal Family, and with other Islamic leaders connected with the underground Nazi Party.

Most Islamics live in peace with Israel, and most Jews do not support all of the policies and practices of Israel, like going back to the 1967 War.

Most Islamics want to have good jobs and raise their families, and to own nice houses, and cars, and computers, and to travel, and and and and. They are just like us; or they want to be.

Religious fundamentalism thrives when people are denied economic opportunity, and when there is political injustice. It is this way in the Middle East, but it is also this way here.

SJG

So tell me what does killing of innocents accomplish. You tell me how killing people in Paris or Tel Aviv or NYC or Mumbai or scores of other places does to let the Daesh or Al Queda scum live the way they want Let them all rot in hell where they belong. This fight is centuries old it needs to be finished I say we kill all of them by bombing them back to the 7th century where they came from. But until we get some leaders with balls they will continue their barbarism. I live in the United States let your peaceful Muslims use their own armies and fix their own mess without involving us. Than maybe I'll listen to your bullshit.

No one in Europe or the US is endorsing or sanctioning terrorism. Rather, every possible effort is being made to stop it. But the saner heads also know that every time you kill one person in the Middle-East, you create several new extremists.

Terrorism is the poor man's nuclear weapon. This is an asymmetrical war, and their side can go on indefinitely. And this is what will happen until there is democracy and economic opportunity in their countries.

twentyfive, You want genocide. I'm glad it is finally out in the open. I want none of that, and I think you would do well to consider where your hatred really comes from.

SJG

"I strongly prefer the US remain a secular nation."

Our Constitution makes this an absolute legal requirement.

No such thing!

Amendment I. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;...

It only says the government can NOT establish, say like The Church Of England.

The US Constitution gives very LIMITED power to the federal government. However, over time it has been bastardized. The reason, IMHO, these four words, "...promote the general Welfare...".

JS69 - first of all, I'm not having an "I love muslims parade," and nothing I said should warrant such a comment. If I'm having an "I love muslims parade," you're having an "I HATE muslims" parade... By your logic. I don't love muslims, nor do I hate them. I hate generalizations of muslims which leads to prejudice and discrimination based off of radical terror groups that are comprised of a very small number of muslims compared to the large number of people who follow that faith.

I guess we should all hate christians, too. They've killed more people in history than muslims. The bible forbids wearing clothes of two different materials, getting tattoos, eating shellfish, having sex during your period, and also says women are not allowed to speak in church.

Have you read the whole Qu'ran? Why are you telling me to get educated? I live in southeast Michigan which has a huge arab and muslim population. I've known plenty of them and last I checked, none were radicals, even those who are very committed to their faith. I even dated a muslim who was from Yemen like straight off the boat, only had been here a few years.

I have friends who are muslim, they are black. Not radicals at all. They're normal people, the girls don't cover their hair, I've drank and smoked with them several times. They just don't eat pork ever, and I can't drink or smoke with them during Ramadan because of their faith.

If you use radical groups and try to say they're representative of a group as a whole, that is just ignorant and ridiculous. There are so many terroristic groups here in America and they are not muslims. Let's worry about America instead of a group that doesn't even actively exist here.

The Supreme Court has always interpreted "make no law ..." as meaning that there is no official religion, that religion is not above the law, and that church and state need to be separated. So therefore the Constitution requires that this be a secular nation.

Thomas Jefferson had wanted to go much further. In the Virginia Constitution he originally wanted to outlaw the practice of all organized religion. That being impractical, we have the compromise of the First Amendment version.

The Supreme Court is spelled out in Article 3.

Stari Decisis, the doctrine of following precedents, is part of the due process clause in the 5th Amendment.

And then that it is the Supreme Court which interprets and enforces the Constitution was established with Marbury v Madison, 1803.

americanhistory.about.com

Then President Thomas Jefferson did not like this. But consider, if the Supreme Court does not have the power to interpret and enforce the Constitution, then that Constitution would mean nothing.

And in fact, this was the problem when President John Adams had been signing into law his "seditious acts".

So yes, people and politicians can practice religion and can have religious views, but there is still no official religion, religion is not above the law, and church and state must stay separate.

SJG

to SJG I am not advocating genocide I am advocating self defense it seems in your twisted mind that you can find justification for these barbarians to attack and kill woman and children in the name of Allah we need to be rid of them the sooner the better. There is no justification for the hideous acts of barbarism perpetuated in the name of their prophet or their god. You should be ashamed of yourself for defending the truly indefensible.

I'm not defending acts of terrorism. I am though just telling you what should be obvious, that people in the Middle East living with out democracy or economic opportunity are going to continue to engage in such acts. You cannot defeat them by military force alone, unless you engage in genocide.

So then the solution is to start helping those countries to reform their systems. Religious extremism only gains followers when people are being oppressed and are being kept poor and uneducated. It is like this in the Middle East, and it is like this here in the U.S.

France and Belgium are of course right to do what they can to arrest any accomplices to these acts of terrorism. But beyond this, furthering the present policies in the middle east, or the types of policies people like @twentyfive advocate will only make the situation worse.

SJG

this is from the Quran

Islam is Jihad, as Muhammad stated that it is the moral duty of devout Muslims to engage in Jihad of the Sword and the Pen (War and War Propaganda). Mohammad said that War is deceit. There is Taqiyya (Shia) or Muda'rat (Sunni): tactical deceit for the purposes of spreading Islam. There is Kitman: deceit by omission. There is Tawriya: deceit by ambiguity. There is Taysir: deceit through facilitation, i.e., not have to observe all the tenets of Sharia There is Darura: deceit through necessity, i.e., to engage in something haram (forbidden)

There is Muruna: the temporary suspension of Sharia in order that Muslim immigrants appear "moderate". So through the principle of Hijra (Muslim Immigration), the early Muslims are a "red herring" or a Trojan Horse. The Kafir or Kuffar community gets the false sense that the early immigrants are not a threat, at least until the Muslim community has gained strength.

There is Al-Wara’ Wal-Bara - “requires Muslims love all other Muslims, to help Muslims against non-Muslims (this could include sheltering terrorists etc.) and to shun, oppose, hate and make jihad, including war, on non-Muslims.”

Hudna: a temporary truce (often portrayed as “Peace” to the Kafir), which the Muslims can break at any time it is strategically advantageous. It is usually for the purposes of rearming and regrouping (see Palestinians and Israel).

Hijra: Muslim immigration in order to peacefully populate and gain strength in a Kafir country. Can be used in combination with Muruna.

Following Mohammad's example, i.e., Mecca vs. Medina, the principle of when weak preach peace, when strong wage war.

How about in the Book of Judges when a traveler finds that his concubine has been sexually violated by a bunch of men, and so this traveler tears the woman into pieces and distributes the pieces.

Or how about what I would consider to be a pivotal Bible passage, known by some as Two Bellies One Spear,

Numbers 25: 6 -13 At this a certain Israelite came and brought in a Midianite woman* to his kindred in the view of Moses and of the whole Israelite community, while they were weeping at the entrance of the tent of meeting. 7 e When Phinehas, son of Eleazar, son of Aaron the priest, saw this, he rose up from the assembly, and taking a spear in his hand, 8 followed the Israelite into the tent where he pierced the two of them, the Israelite and the woman. Thus the plague upon the Israelites was checked; 9 but the dead from the plague were twenty-four thousand.
10 Then the LORD said to Moses: 11 Phinehas, son of Eleazar, son of Aaron the priest, has turned my anger from the Israelites by his being as jealous among them as I am; that is why I did not put an end to the Israelites in my jealousy.* 12 f Announce, therefore, that I hereby give him my covenant of peace,* 13 which shall be for him and for his descendants after him the covenant of an everlasting priesthood, because he was jealous on behalf of his God and thus made expiation for the Israelites.

The implication is that Phinehas speared the two of them while they were fucking. In some other translations this is more clear.

Also, in this translation they are using Jealousy. Usually it is Zeal. Zeal is not used in the Bible before or after, until we come to Paul.. Paul is making a direct reference to this passage.

Most Muslims just want a better life for their families and themselves. Here where I live there are often some places favored for kneeling down to pray facing Mecca, like in public libraries.

It is when people are denied political and economic justice that they are likely to turn to religious fundamentalism, be it Islamic or Christian, and be it in the Middle East or in the United States of America.

SJG sites.google.com

Jimmy Hendrix youtube.com

The passage you are quoting is from the Old Testament is to describe everlasting peace and/or making a real peace and a lasting peace. It does not even apply to any part of this conversation except to show that Jews and Christians are able to make peace with outsiders and have it recognized by God. What I have given you from the Quran tells Muslims that there is never a real peace with non Muslims only temporary truces.

No, it is the story of Israelites having crossed the Red Sea and then starting to fraternize with Midian and Moabite women, and so, in the name of God of course, this Phineas spears two of them.

That is how it is in the Bible, comply or else. And this is continued, though in a bit different language, in the New Testament.

About absolutist monotheism, Believe or Else! amazon.com

SJG sites.google.com

Yes, the lost broadcasts youtube.com quite good!

I am getting tired of this why don't you go to Raqqa in Syria and explain to them why they are oppressed and let them tell you themselves.

Why would I want to do this when I have nothing in particular to offer them?

Mostly I am just replying to you. This is your thread and you are the one who seems to want to argue, simply because I do not agree with you.

My own interests are more with social conditions here in the U.S..

SJG

You seem to argue with everybody. The real reason you don't get along with anyone, is not because they disagree with you, but because you cant accept any person with an opinion different than your own. I would be more than willing to bet you have no friends because as it is plain to see your development was stunted at some point, before you developed any social skills. Even on this board you are always taking up with newbies because even the people that might agree with you have found you to be a jackass. I suggest in all sincerity that you get some counseling before it is too late. Just one last reply to your post , This is not my thread the OP was MrDeuce I have never advocated genocide what I advocate is leave me in peace, and I will not bother you, step to me and I will respond as forcefully as I am able to.

@twentyfive, You are the one who is arguing. I know that you don't agree with me and that this is not likely to change anytime soon. But I am also not the one who is engaging in derisive posting. I don't do this.

SJG

I came of age learning the terms, "Arab Terrorists" and "Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorists", going back to the 1970's.

And this is why I was so surprised when in his Neuromancer Trilogy, William Gibson used the term, "Christian Fundamentalist Terrorists". I read that and I just couldn't stop laughing.

amazon.com

The example he was referring to was a group that was attacking abortion clinics. Most of the time these folks are tied to both white supremacy and Christian Fundamentalism. They perform these acts of terrorism in order to obtain notoriety, and in some cases churches are promoting it in order to gain members and raise money.

It Is not that much different from the church and motel bombings going on in Birmingham Alabama during the Civil Rights years, as Governor George Wallace had proclaimed, "Segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever". These terrorists are taking their cues from mainline politicians.

youtube.com

"Dear's ex-wife, Pamela Ross, told the New York Times was a Bible-believing Christian..." lifesitenews.com

SJG sites.google.com

"White Americans Are The Biggest Terror Threat In The United States"

ukzambians.co.uk

pri.org

SJG