Oh, and I don't think I'll ever be able to forget about her, no matter how hard I try. My girlfriend and I broke up few days earlier, so there I was stuck in shitty hotel room in suburban LA for a week. I took a wrong turn coming back from Hollywood and stumbled in to this little club expecting nothing, then ended up having one of the most memorable nights of my life.
Davids: I did hit the Vu last night, just got a later start than normal (usually I have dance lessons Weds. evening). I'm going to check out Honey's tonight, weather permitting.
Shadowcat: Yes, I realized after doing some research the next day that she was a pro and must have been the club's headliner for a couple months (which they hadn't advertised at all for some weird reason). The club told her to dance under a different name, and said she was a playboy playmate from Idaho. Maybe they were afraid of her taking money from the other girls, but that happend anyway.
I can't remember the exact words (this was several months ago), but she said something like how most are married, and looking for the attention that the wife doesn't give them. They are either looking for a lady listen to their problems, or carry out the fantasy of having an affair. Of the single ones, most are there out of lonliness, the remaining ones because they have money to blow. We're talking guys that hang around the club for several hours, not just the quick stop ins. Looking around the place, I'd say she had it about right (this was a small club just outside of LA).
I had already told her that I was from out of town visiting, so there was no point in trying to pull at my heart strings to make me a repeat customer of hers. She went on to criticize the current state of gender affairs in the US, how women don't respect men and only go after their money. I finally caved in for a dance a couple hours later, and she went to the DJ and *told* him to put on a 3 for 1. Ironically, part of the reason I check out new clubs is to see if I'll ever meet someone like her. Ahh..I hope she's doing well, whereever she is.
Johnny, I usually get the exact same reaction. I treat dancers so differently than what they're used to that many of them will spend time with me whether I spend much money or not. And I totally agree with Kyle, if you come on too strong a girl will almost always stay away from you. Most dancers have had problems with stalkers and are very careful to avoid a guy who appears to like them too much. If you want to have a regular, treat her like a friend, not like a GF.
FONDL and Kyle makes a good points above, and I was going to say something similar. From what I've seen, the majority of dancers will not go to any level just to get your money. Maybe it's altruism, or just knowing that going too far is going to get them in trouble down the road.
My second time ever in a strip club, I was told by an experienced dancer that I "didn't belong" there. I was a little offended at first, but she went on to explain all the typical types of men that go to clubs. I thought it could be some reverse psychology crap she was pulling, but later found out she was 40, had a 5 year porn career, and was close to retirement. So, she didn't need my money and was just making sure I understood the real reasons most people go. Obviously it didn't prevent me from going, but when I do go, have a much better understanding of the dynamics, and respectful, and enjoy myself without getting carried away.
Here's another example of a real life "scam" I liked.
A lawyer hires a hit man (actually a drug addict) to kill an old man. The drug addict just wants the $400 so he can buy crack. The lawyer becomes increasing angry that the hit man hasn't killed the old man (a client he stole $3,000 from--there's a lot more to the story than that). The drug addict finally tells the lawyer he can't kill, but he is willing to break a few of the old man's bones and put him in pain. Instead of accepting his loss the lawyer wants to cause the drug addict pain and suffering so he calls the police and alleges the drug addict stole $400. Dumb dumb dumb move.
End result lawyer loses license to practice law (actually a license to steal) for 7 years. The crooked judge who presided over the case praised the lawyer for contributing $1,500 to a charity for children. The crooked judge also admonished the old man for wanting the return of the $3,000 the lawyer stole. Crooked judge also blamed the problem on hand guns! Dishonest and a nut job!
What a sleazy nation this has always been or has become. That judge is filth. And, so is the lawyer that hired the drug addict to kill the old man. The system is serious flawed where a normal person has absolutely NO protection against these filthy savages.
Hi Fondl,
I saw this PERFECT dancer many years back and I was so excited that I walked past a bunch of other attractive dancers without even glancing at them. I told the PERFECT dancer that I would like to buy some dances. She made up some excuse and then disappeared. I kept my eyes open for her and once again asked to buy dances. She again made up some excuse and disappeared.
It turned out she was afraid because I showed such a strong interest in her to the exclusion of other dancers. She thought I was going to fall in love with her. I told her that I just wanted to buy dances and that if I knew her I probably wouldn't even like her. She got a little smile and wanted to know why I probably wouldn't like her. I said you're way too PERFECT and it has probably gone to your head. I have zero interest in getting a girlfriend. I just want to buy dances!
Turns out she was a very nice person and gave GFE type dances to me. It was fantastic. She really let herself go she said because she felt she could trust me. As long as there was trust that I wouldn't fall in love she liked giving and receiving R rated sexual pleasure.
I got very lucky. And, there was never any problem with me or her becoming confused. We just had a wonderful time.
***So yes, some dancers will try to avoid customers who might get too enamored with them.***
Hi Davids,
I like to see really bad people get scammed especially if it is in a manner similar to what they do to other people so hopefully they can see that it is not right to scam people. Unfortunately, the scammer doesn't usually see beyond the fact of his own suffering. He doesn't understand he is getting back what he was so happy to deliver unto others.
But, I gave a real life example of a scammer who I was very happy with. It is the story about the "law and order" prosecutor who tried to encourage a dancer to engage in prostitution and got a little well deserved justice in return. That prosecutor would have no qualms about sending others to prison to be raped and tortured for violating the "law." But, when he tries to engage in a criminal act and gets burned by the scammer/dancer instead of cutting his losses he decides to fight back! Well the little self righteous prosecutor gets what he so richly deserved a trip to jail and the loss of his high power high paying job/rackett. Unfortunately, he still has his license to practice law which is really a license to steal.
I say to 2 thumbs up to the scammer/dancer who I believe ordinarily would be happy to provide sexual services for $$$. I believe he was recognized and then a trap was set and then sprung! :)
BTW, the dancers I know usually work at cheap clubs in Miami and the earnings after paying the club can be brutally low. Of course, sometimes the problem has to do more with a lack of education on how to handle money.
I have to agree with RTY. Ask a dancer for a date and, unless you know her really well, you're telling her you think she's a tramp and you want to have sex. She'll think you're a jerk. Ask her to hang out with you and she'll often be flattered because she'll correctly interpret it that you'd like to get to know her as a person. If I like a dancer and want to see her again, I never tell her that she's hot or anything similar that suggests that my interest is sex. I might compliment her on her eyes, her hair, her outfit and such, but mainly I tell her that she's really nice and that I find her interesting. Sure it's a line but I don't say it unless it's true. Because if I didn't find her interesting I wouldn't want to see her again.
And I have to agree with hoscat. If you can't tell within the first five minutes of talking to the girl whether she's a nice girl or a con artist, you're in serious need of learning some people skills.
Davids, I've known many dancers who refused to spend time with certain niave customers who were too enamored with them. The girls could easily take these guys for a bundle but they won't, because they know that that's only going to lead to problems down the line. If you fall in love with a dancer, she is much more likely to ditch you than to take you for a bundle. Most of the dancers that I've known made no attempt to maximize their income; as long as they made decent money they were quite content to spend their time with those customers whose company they enjoyed the most. You don't have to be a big spender to find girls spending a lot of time with you. All you have to do is treat them with respect.
Most of the dancers I've known came from very screwed up backgrounds where every guy they knew tried to take advantage of them. For them it's a real pleasure to meet someone who treats them with respect. Their initial approach may be cautious - get you before you get them - because that's what their experience has taught them. But it doesn't take much to overcome this. And once you do you might find a very delightful person. That's been my experience.
Kyle: You are right, there are indeed cases where stealing and lying is moral.
I am not familair with Robin Hood: so here are my examples: If the Gestapo knocks on your door in WWII and asks where the frank family is you lie. If you know a murderer is going to use a gun to shoot someone you steal it.
The lying and stealing that strippers do is not to protect people from violence so it does not fall into the exceptional situations. When is scamming ever justified?
I also agree that the very poor with no alternatives are justified in stealing to keep themselves alive. Again strippers making about $500/night do not qualify for this category.
BTW, over at Publix some years back a manager and clerk were discussing a skid row bum who had consumed a few premium beers and had no $ on him to pay. The clerk wanted to call the police and have the bum do jail time to pay for his crime. The manager tried explaining to the clerk that he hoped with age he would come to learn that sometimes "You have to let live." The clerk said it is not your $ the bum is stealing. The manager said I'm going to pay for those beers out of my own pocket because I believe that is the right thing to do. But, why couldn't he have chosen Bud instead of the premium beer?! {He said with a chuckle.} Still the clerk thought jail would rehabilitate the bum and teach him a lesson . . . The manager said it is time for us both to get back to work.
I was very impressed with that Publix manager and he runs a truly great store. Good prices and nice employees and clean! :)
Hi Davids,
You probably disagree with me, but to me there is a significant difference between a petty thief trying to meet the bills and a thug who steals $300 or $400 or more per hour. I've met some very nice petty crooks who do have morals. You might ask well how in the world could they morals if you catch them stealing small amounts of $. My answer is fairly simple. They don't mean any real harm and might be the first to try and help you out if you were in trouble. So a lady is stealing cherries at Publix, which isn't very nice. But, she helps you clean the awnings and refuses to take any $ or she gives you sports tickets she won and didn't want, but knows you've been dreaming about. Again, she won't accept any help.
Is she a nice person? What if she doesn't see anything wrong with stealing from Publix and thinks that is the right thing to do?
This one homeless lady, she was removed from a vacant lot she'd been living in, resorted to stealing some food from a nearby neighbor. Does this mean she is not a nice person? (She ignored his valuables.)
I believe many of these petty criminals are very nice people, but they have some problems or different views.
I only hate the ones who lie, scam or steal. Same in the clothed business world. I like the ones (1-2%) who are genuinely nice. But the genuinely smart and nice ones are probably going to avoid that sleaze in the first place (or get away from it ASAP) so I guess we shouldn't be too surprised that they are not common in strip clubs (see my "fundamental problem" thread). This all gets back to original post in the thread: since they are unlikely to be nice and smart that's a pretty good reason not to ask them for dates.
Setting him on the right course? Yikes, that is almost impossible especially if he's desperate for female contact. Better to find him a better realistic alternative. Play match maker and hopefully cupid.
The gentlemen I meet at the strip clubs don't look like their too interested in palaver--especially palaver attempting to set them straight--unless it is with someone with titties, pussy, and ass.
Davids: The answer is D: All of the above apply, depending on the dancer. Ya' know what, strip clubs are not bible school. These women are dancing to make a living and, like it or not, some of them will stoop to unscrupulous means to do it. I've got a newsflash for you: This happens everyday in the business world with women (and men) who are fully clothed. Deception is not a business tactic relagated to strip clubs. No one here is saying that all dancers are honest, nor are we saying that all customers are. Again I'm puzzled, why do you even bother going to strip clubs. You really seem to hate these ladies.
Davids: Are you a strip club customer or not? If you are I have to wonder why you would spend a dime on women that you despise so much. You can accuse me of anything you like; misogynists like you are nothing new on this board. But it is clear from the majority of your postings that you just plain don't like dancers. Why not spend your time in other venues where the playing field is a bit more level? As I mentioned earlier, strip clubs operate on a simple premise: You pay to play. Anyone who isn't mature enough to understand that concept doesn't really belong in a strip club.
Hey I've dated (or whatever you decide to call it) several strippers in my life and if you can't tell the bad from the good ones in an evening of chatting with them at the table then you need an education in people skills.
Just remember the sign out side usually says "Gentlemen's Club" not the "First American Church" or the "Moral Majority Meeting Room" so it's up to you as an individuals to make your own choices when it comes to laying out the cash or your emotions.
As the old saying goes......"If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen." Blaming your ignorance on someone else is like saying you had no say in the matter.
But I bet you won't make that mistake again. So just like that student loan you had to pay off for your college education you just paid for a real life, school of hard knocks, education.
NOW GET OVER IT AND GO IN THERE AGAIN AND ENJOY YOUR EDUCATED SELF !!!!
The Miami Herald had a story some years back about a stripper who "scammed" this supposedly devout born again Chrisitian lawyer who was a government prosecutor who belived in building more prisons and the law is god type garbage. He successfully bilked the taxpayers for what I consider to be obscene amount of $$$ on his morality bs. Anyway he finds himself at the Pink Pussycat (I'm fairly sure that's the correct name). He probably just got confused and thought it was a church. Poor man was terribly tempted by seeing naked women so he spends about $2,000? to get full service and the dancer proclaims she's not that type of girl.
Does our legal beagle and moral crusader respect the fair lady's refusal to engage in prostitution? Hell NO!, he creates a scene, gets arrested, loses his job of stealing and lying to the dumber than dumb taxpayers. :)
I believe he was set up by those whose recognized that he was "big shot" lawyer prosecutor who made his $$$ and got his jollies on other people's misery. His kind is the true filth of society. I think that stripper who scammed him did a great community service and I'd like to give her an extremely large tip. :)
This story should be available in The Herald archives for a few bucks. I'm just doing it on memory and they may have been more than 1 story.
1) Because you don't know what you really want.
Why would you date a dancer? what are you hoping to get out of it? Will she give you what you want?
Let me replace the word "date" with "hang-out". I've asked dancers to hang-out with me, get some food, go to a concert, take their kid to Chuckie Cheese. Always a good time and everyone was happy. This was truly done as a friendly gesture and not wanting any more than that.
There was one dancer who said while we were have a discussion that she'd go on dates with customers if they paid her for her time. I told her I would never do that as I figure that if I'm with some one it's as a friend and we are enjoying each others company. She was honest and I appreciated that, but I'd never ask her out.
I never go hunting for dancers to date. It just becomes a natural next step if I get really close to someone that we are going to be hanging-out outside the club.
It is almost laughable. "Lying is wrong. Stealing is wrong. Scamming is wrong. Wrong is still wrong. No I don't like them [strippers] much. 1-2% might be exceptions. I don't think they're [strippers] really human . . . "
But, it is right for you to spend $$$ on these strippers you dislike so intensely??? That is a really strange sense of morality. You'd really be at home as a judge, legislator, president, lawyer, etc.
Lying is not necessarily wrong.
Stealing is not necessarily wrong.
Scamming is not necessarily wrong.
Killing people is not necessarily wrong.
I'm sure you've the story about Robin Hood. He stole from the evil tax collector {I believe that's the correct version} and gave it to the poor. He was the good guy. The government thugs who pretended to be good were the bad guys. Of course, some people prefer government thugs. Some people think they know absolutely what is right and what is wrong.
I think you're probably wrong, but who knows prehaps the all powerful creator dog or god or whatever will enlighten me and I will learn lying is always wrong. :)
Yoda: Sorry when they get to the point of lying, scamming, stealing when you are nice to them and not looking for love/sex then they are clearly the ones in the wrong. I haven't got scammed by any strippers b/c my cycnical attitude has protected me from that. I see them trying it all the time though and they tell me gleefully about their regulars who they are hustling big bucks out of. Makes me sick.
It would be easy for someone not as even love with strippers as you are to see that, but I guess you are blinded to their moral defects.
Now let's suppose there are people in the clubs looking for "love" where they shouldn't be? What is the proper moral response in that case?
a) Try and milk the sucker for all he is worth by using various forms of deception including outright lying,
b) do nothing and watch as he goes down into a downward spiral, or
c) tell him he is going down the wrong path and set him on the right course.
Now I know that the posters (and especially the strippers) here are going to have trouble with this question, but I think to anyone who does not regard strippers as "moral infalliable beings" the answer would be obvious.
If I have developed a bad attitude toward strippers it's not what I came in with. It's because I have observed that strippers do not seem to understand basic morals: lying is wrong; stealing is wrong; scamming is wrong. Doesn't matter if the victim is easy to sucker and you will make alot of money by doing it. Wrong is still wrong. It's that simple. Not sure why you guys (and girls) don't get it.
A strip club where the dancers are so sensitive that you can't ask them out for dates without it becoming some biggie deal doesn't sound like much fun. Most women, especially strippers, are very capable of saying NO and saying it very nicely in my experience. And, they are still willing to do a good job on future dances especially if you don't turn her simple NO into some soap opera dealy.
Most of the dancers I've met see it as a complement if you doing it very politely and after you've spent some $$$ and treated her well. Of course, I'm talking about dancers that work at cheap clubs.
If a stripper is telling a customer he is BIG, then some customers will actually believe it. Every once in a while a stripper will tell me that and I will laugh and say something like you know darn well I'm about as average as average gets. Usually, she will laugh and nod her head in agreement. And, if a stripper is telling a customer that he is making her hot, then some customers will actually believe it even if he's only been with her 10 seconds!
But, it can get a lot worse than that. Some women are fairly accomplished at *preying* on lonely desperate men. So if you put yourself in the shoes of the lonely desperate man, then you might see things a lot differently.
If you put yourself in the shoes of a woman who *preys* on lonely desperate men, then you might see things a lot differently.
Bottom line: Strip clubs usually, almost always, are not the place to be looking for a love connection. And, if you think you've found a love connection in a strip club be extremely cautious and keep the eyes open. Some women who *prey* on "suckers/morons" do one hell of an acting job especially if the "sucker/moron" is just of average intelligence.
Actually, it's because they then think you are a jerk. I tried asking out this one dancer when I was relatively new to stripclubs, and that was basically the end of me getting any enjoyment out of that club that night.
Davids: Something tells me that your definition of a "mark" is really just a guy looking for something that he shouldn't be looking for in strip clubs. The basic premise is very simple: You pay, they dance . You keep paying, they keep dancing. No one is holding you prisoner in an LD chair and forcing you to buy dances. Sounds to me like you are a victim of your own attitude about women.
I wonder if you're being nice or looking for a girlfriend. There's a big difference. Generally I don't think strippers appreciate customers looking for a girlfriend or a love connection in a strip club. (Even when they're looking for love.)
I also wonder if you "flash" wealth. Some people (including strippers) see nothing wrong with stealing from the "wealthy."
My mother had the skill to attract men when she had a body and when she looked like garbage. The men, even if very nice guys, were unbelieveably desperate for a relationship with the female gender. Depressing. To her they were just morons to be used. She didn't like males even a little bit, but the men were so *desperate and pathetic or inexperienced* they couldn't see the obvious at least not initially. After being "burned" the dumber ones probably started thinking all or most women were like my mother. I always wonder if some men were subconsciously attracted to that kind of woman. Perhaps they got off being mistreated. Sometimes the victim should be blamed . . .
Anyway, sounds like NOT talking to the strippers might be a solution for you. And, I guess posting on the discussion board is helpful--if you can't talk to strippers the next best thing must be talking to strip club customers. :)
shadowcat: anyone should be able to find their appropriate level of mileage at Rick's. Beyond a certain level I would be worried about safety issues however and would just visit a Brothel in Nevada instead since the safety issues are better regulated. Plenty of girls will do topless stuff at Rick's for the standard $30. Like I say it runs everything from air up to ... You could very well be right about Rick's being overrated b/c the other local clubs are so lame. I'll take your word for that based on your more extensive experience.
TopGun: Thanks for your insights. I'll try being nice to strippers in the future. Oh wait, I already tried that and it just makes you "a mark". n/m
Davids, what is with the bullshit that strippers are "not really human?" No wonder they treat you like the asshole you come across as. People tend to get the attitude they project put right back at them...
Might be a point for when I'm out of town but locally I'm in enough that they I'm not LEO, and mileage is a cinch at the local clubs (a bit too high for my liking in some cases, in fact).
No I don't like them much. 1-2% might be exceptions. I don't know. I think a better philosophy than avoiding them altogether is to just get dances from them but not talk to them. I don't think they're really human, although some of them look pretty good.
Davids: I think FONDL and I would agree that we have had vastly different experiences with dancers than you have. Maybe it's best if you just stay away from them, you don't seem to like them very much.
I try and treat strippers very well. In return I've *usually* been treated like a VIP. This despite the fact that I really don't spend much $ and sometimes don't spend any $. AND, YOU KNOW WHAT? I DON'T EXPECT ANYTHING IN RETURN FOR TRYING TO TREAT THEM VERY WELL. I EXPECT GOOD TREATMENT DURING DANCES BECAUSE I'M THEIR *CUSTOMER*. Of course, I get a few bad apples and I'd wager most of those bad apples are the fruits of obnoxious nasty customers.
BTW, these bad apples may even provide good service and value. In that case they can be assured of my future business. This one perfect looking dancer was NOT a nice person based NOT only on my own observations, but by remarks of her fellow dancers. I sure as hell was still eager to do business with her (and did) because she had the looks I lust after and she did a damn good job.
I hang out at cheap clubs. That might be the difference. I sure as hell ain't NO lady's man. A single girlfriend my entire life; the relationship lasted 11 years and she was brainy and HOT and sweet.
Also, I haven't run into any problems or negatives by politely asking dancers for dates. Those that give me the old thumbs down are usually very nice or I get a phony phone number; but, still niceness by strippers is the rule. Usually, the dancers want more than I can afford for dates. Wrongly assuming I'm talking full service for money. Even when I explain what I'm interested in most believe I'm really talking about full service which ain't the case unless that is what I've said.
Actually the #1 reason for not hitting on a dancer is because that immediately labels you as a jerk. Dancers get really tired of customers asking them out. Treat them well and they'll do the same for you. Act like a jerk and they'll treat you like one.
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