The Whole "Culture" is Sick

Hello All! I'm new here so bear with me. I was the GM at two large clubs, one in ATL and one in NO. What I found is that there are three types of performers in sc'S. The Stripper who scams, lies, turns tricks in one fashion or another. Then there is the Dancer who goes through the motions but not with the intent of money, money, money. The last of the three is the Entertainer. They work professionialy and with standards and the income represents that. All of the ladies are needing the cash for one thing or another but as in life, it is the way they handle themselves that determines their level of success or failure. All can not be grouped together and strereotyped as screwups, problem children, addicts and whatever else. Like everywhere else, we all have our own baggage.

You know, this place used to be fun...

Johnnylingo, I wouldn't argue with your percentages but I see it slightly differently. Somewhere else I tried to categorize dancers as young party girls, single mothers, drug addicts, college students and seasoned pros. Obviously there are other categories but I think these five represent most strippers. These categories aren't mutually exclusive, a girl can and often does fit more than one. But I also think there's often a natural progression: many girls start out as young party girls, then progress to one or more of the other categories either by getting pregnant or getting hooked on drugs or signing up for college courses. As I've said elsewhere, in my experience an awful lot of these girls come from broken homes, receive no parental support, and are self-supporting. In fact many of them support not only themselves but also a parent or a sibling or a loser boyfriend. The fact that some of them make it through this experience and come out the other side as productive and well-adjusted members of society is pretty remarkable. But then I've met some pretty remarkable girls in strip clubs. Which for me is the main attraction. Anyway, I personally prefer the young-party-girls-on-their-way-to-becoming-college-students girls or the ones who have already crossed that line. My ATF was exactly that.

Hi Superdude,

White flight can be very benefical to blacks. I remember this old white lady who wanted to basically give away her beautiful home for practically nothing because the blacks were coming. This was not an isolated event, but I can't see it happening much now-a-days.

The new saga according to a developer buddy is to move low income blacks out of neighborhoods that have always been theirs. Rising property values can make eager sellers out of landlords. Fortunately, property assessments on homesteads can only increase 3% a year so there is some protection for homeowners. New buyers have a nightmare though because the county has started assessing at full value or more which they never did before. I don't even know how true the story is. He might be dreaming of $$$ that could be made if blacks were pushed out. I had read stories about how blacks from the islands were holding firm on attempts to buy their land in Coconut Grove, but that was years and years ago. I thought it was a garden spot and my dad thought I was crazy. :)

As an attorney I wonder what argument you could make in favor of white strip clubs that discriminate against blacks. Or, even in favor of black strip clubs that discriminate against whites. Every once in a while I will find a black dancer who not only dislikes whites, but also refuses to dance for whites. I would think there must be some black strip clubs where white customers are excluded. Supposedly, at Angels white dancers are being barred from dancing by black dancers . . .

Hi Scgrrl,

I think you're asking how I would decide whether you are equal to a man? That would depend on the community or culture.

In the white trash bar I would expect you not only to be able to defend yourself, but others as well. And, it is no excuse that you may not have the physical strength. That is why God gave us weapons. :) I'm only 5'4. That is small. Fortunately, when I was young I had strength and worked at getting stronger. Physically I was nothing special. But, some people actually considered me extremely dangerous, but I consider myself 99% wimp. Fortunately, I have 1% of my mother's blood which allowed be to do what was right some of the time.

Women on the other hand needed protecting. And, I would get fairly aggressive in being like a brother whether it was wanted or not. Yes, some women say they don't need protecting and that is great. The problem is when the shit hits the fan. I'd rather just do nothing or walk away and can do that without any guilt if the woman is equal to a man. Some people considered me a tough guy, but it was laughable in that I walked away from trouble more often than I confronted it. With a woman involved I really didn't have that option, unless they are equal to a man.

It is in my best interests to consider women equal to men so I'm moving more and more in that direction. Right v. wrong is becoming a lot less important or almost irrelevant. And, now it really doesn't matter if a woman can protect herself or not. I'm not in good enough shape to help her anyway and a significant portion of the culture is anti-gun and anti-weapon so I won't do anything.

Hi Scgrrl,

Why would you think not equal means lesser?

If men were up on stage and selling me their bodies for $$$, then there would be no guilt. If women are basically equal to men, then there is no guilt. But, if women are special there is whole new set of rules.

Yes, I understand your argument about individual this and individual that. But, there is also something known as culture. Culture may specify that I be willing to die trying to protect you or etc. So unless you plan on just forgetting that individuals usually reside in a community and there are community standards (it is sort of like culture) then the issue may boil down to what is in the best interests of the community or culture.

The little community in the white trash bar would be destroyed by blacks coming to dance or just be customers. You may believe that is a good thing. That is not the point.

The point is that different community and different cultures have different rules and those rules will of course not fit every individual.

Kyle, Your last 2 posts rambled a bit, and your rationale is quite confusing!! I have never needed a man's protection, and I support myself & my family on my own, and have never asked for or expected special treatment from anyone.....and that defines my equality? Every woman has her own set of "rules" that guide her through life, just as men do. Every woman has different rules regarding her interaction with men. It seems that on the one hand, you are putting us ladies on a pedestal, yet saying that we are "lesser" and not equal??? Perhaps it was just the way I enterpreted your posts.

Kyle gives us an interesting insight into the racism in strip club culture. Not much different than the larger world. A new black hire must be four times better than any white to get hired. When whites are alone and speaking freely, they express the views of Kyle's bartender Klansman friend. Cities, neighborhoods, bars and restaurants all experience white flight when "tipping" occurs. And we all know it, while denying it.

What made you so negative towards the strip clubs. Just like any place or business, there are always good and bad. I don't think the whole strip club culture is sick. It can be fun too. Always choose good dancers and avoid the bad ones. You will have plenty of good times!

Hi Scgrrl,

So to sum it up if women are equals then no rules are being broken and I have no need to feel guilt. In theory the woman is equal so her value is like that of a man: LOW. Of course, because of her body a woman will have a high commercial value to me if I find her attractive enough.

Yes, you can teach an old dog new tricks. Probably the best example is race. The bartender at Angels asked me if it was ok for him to hire a black dancer (he didn't like blacks even a little so it was a shock he'd ask the question). I said what the hell do you care what I think I'm just a customer. He says you are the number one customer and whatever you say goes. I reply if she's very hot, then I have NO problem. But, you are going to turn this into a black bar and I want it to remain a white trash bar. He laughs and says they belong in chains or dead and will never take this bar. I say just remember quality. He agrees. Later . . . I see the black dancer and almost have a heart attack. It was like she was sent from God. The bartender sees my reaction and says SEE. And, she was as nice or nicer than she was awe inspiring with her beauty. Boy, the white dancers really had their feelings hurt and did I hear about it no uncertain terms. About a week or more passes and he hires another black dancer. I give the bartender the look. He says she's HOT. I agree. She was also super sweet NO hustle and surprisingly shy. She wanted to hang out with her buddy the other dancer. So a little more time passes and another black dancer is hired! I glare at the bartender. This dancer is damn UGLY. He says "I know. You fire her. I can't." So I go up to the dancer to get rid of her and very quickly I see why he hired her and couldn't fire her. She was a very nice lady. I couldn't fire her either. This was the end of the white club. It has been a long time since I've seen a white dancer and most of the customers are black. The moral of the story is that the bartender's beliefs changed radically as he was given new information. He now liked the black dancers as good people and became buddies with them.

So if I start seeing men and women act the same I will start seeing them more as equals. For example, most of the men I know are desperate to have sex with almost any woman. Most of the women are very choosey. But, even if men and women don't start acting the same I will start seeing them more as equals or at least adversaries because of the law.

Hi Scgrrl,

If women need to be taken care of, then there are different rules. For example, I'm not allowed to go to strip clubs or pay a women for sex unless it is a marriage type relationship or drink in front of a woman (unless it acceptable to her) and a whole host of rules designed to protect women. If women are basically equals, then the rules need to go. Males have a relatively low value in my upbringing. You send them off to war to be killed, it makes little difference who they consensually have sex with (of course, good women are supposed to say NO limiting sexual opportunity considerably), responsible use of opium and other drugs are acceptable, dangerous and dirty work is fine the main importance is taking care of the women and children.

Women who are equals have as much value on the battelfield as men--relatively little. Women who are equals can do dangerous and dirty work. Women who are equals have the obligation to financially support their family as a man would. Etc. Etc. Etc. No special treatment or concerns.

When I was young there was a woman who wanted to be a man (which is fine), but she wasn't willing to take the responsibilities of being a man. She wants the benefits, but not the liabilities and in that case she will be treated like a spoiled child until she is willing to accept benefits and liabilities.

Pray, davids.

Kyle, What does your guilt have to do with equality? That's YOUR own personal feeling about a particular event in time. It certainly doesn't represent everyone's opinion. To each their own. You seem like a nice enough old guy, set in your ways about the male/female relationship (taking care of the woman, protecting the woman, etc.). I think it is true what they say....you can't teach an old dog new tricks!

Sure, much about the relationships at clubs as davids describes them are sick. However, there is much about our culture in general that is sick - how we worship fame, attractiveness and wealth, how we devalue those that provide true positives to society, how we can justifiy immoral acts by how much money it can bring in (government & business, not strippers!). But I think what davids posts show most of all is how conflicted he is. He gets great pleasure out of his time with these girls, yet he feels he is exploiting them. So to justify his exploitation, he denigrates them. I think he is better off gone, but I don't think he will be able to stay away. The way I see it, the best way to live is to treat people well and remember - "Guilt Sucks!"

Hi Nigel,

To denigrate those you exploit is a strategy for avoiding guilt. A certain amount of guilt is good because it can help people avoid taking the low road.

So perhaps he is enjoying himself immensely and recognizes that some of these young women are victims and he shouldn't taking advantage of the situations epecially sexually. But, on the other hand any negatives some of these young women have can be magnified perhaps providing a further justification of why he should NOT be taking adavantage.

IOW, now he has two reasons to stop his exploitation of the "weaker sex." First, it is wrong to feed off other people's misery. Second, these people are so bad for lying etc. that they're "less than human."

I don't think Davids wanted to justify what is in his mind exploitation. He wanted super strong reasons to STOP. To be a good guy.

When I frequently visited the formerly all white trash club of Angels many of the dancers were living a hard life. BUT, they were doing a hell of a lot better than I was and for the most part I think their lives were easier--from the start to their present dancing job . Also, if men and women are actually equal, then why would I feel any guilt? A lot of down and out guys would love to have the opportunity down and out females have.

Nickname: davids Email: Unpublished Member Since: 12/1/2004

Reviews Olympic Garden Date: Thursday, December 30, 2004 Rating: 9 This club is a bit small and crowded and not the fanciest, but, wow, what dances! I'm pretty picky about what girls I do multiple dances with (I've learned to just say "no" if I don't really like the first one) but 3 out of 3 times I've been here I found the first girl I met to meet the criteria. That can't be just luck! Lots of fun in the VIP room. You'll spend alot of money here, but it will be worth it. Of yeah, lots of girls of all different ethnicities to choose from.

I'm impressed. You had what sounds like a fantastic time at the Olympic Garden just a little over a week ago and now you've decided that being a predator of generally unhappy and troubled young women is a big NO.

That takes a lot of class. Most people will just rationalize away any evil that interferes with their profits or fun.

I do disagree with you . . . perhaps I'm rationalizing so I can enjoy beautiful young perfect looking women :) . . . but, thumbs up for taking what you believe to be the high road.

Kyle

No doubt that money is the main motivator for strippers - as it is for the vast majority of workers. I wouldn't do my job, if I wasn't getting paid. An attractive women with the right attitude and background can make big bucks stripping. Clearly, not all women are capable of stripping for a living, either because of lack of beauty, personal preferences, and/or interpersonal skills. All the latter are needed to succeed as a stripper. Why not just leave it at that? The stripper business is not that complicated, but know what your doing as a customer.

See Ya!

Hi Davids,

I think you've made a wise decision.

I would be curious to get some real numbers on what the story is with strippers and what got them in the business and keeps them there. I'm not the best to guess, but here goes (note these would overlap):

Single mothers - 60%

Severe financial problems - 30%

Drug addicts - 25%

Leech boyfriends / husbands / family members - 20%

Actual college students - 15% (varies of course by location)

Those who would still dance if it paid the national average salary - 1%

Those who don't want to cry when grinding on an fat, dirty, rude guy for $20 - 0.000001%