Humanity and OTC

I would post my POV but I think Dougster would be more qualified.

Rick have you tried to be open emotionally with them, that really is key. You can convert them into real girlfriends that way no money is required.

I think we could all use a little more self-reflection.

I would feel uncomfortable pushing for what I wanted when I knew the girl didn't want to. I don't have a problem if the girl is down with whatever, but reluctance on her part would kill it. I don't want to push a girl down, but if she's already down its a different story.

Not trying to sound like a total asshole but convincing a stripper to do OTC with you is no different than convincing a civilian at a regular bar to do OTC with you. Only REAL difference I can see is the civilian is more than likely thinking you're looking for a girlfriend/she's looking for a boyfriend and the stripper is less likely to think that.

In the end, it is her decision whether she will agree to fuck you. As long as it is not forced, aka rape, I wouldn't care what method was needed to get the bang. Strippers lie to us all the time to get more money out of us, so we can lie to punch it in across the goal line. How many times has she fucked loser boyfriends for free that made false promises to her? At least she is getting some money this time. ????

I tell them early on what I'd like to do in pretty graphic terms. Then I just let their gradual shift from timid to freaky take its course. It seems it always does in time, as long as they stay in the biz. I might drop an occasional reminder, but I'm not interested in pushing when she's reluctant. That's just pathetic.

My attitude is I can take it or leave it. I really enjoy all the time I spend with favorites in the club, even the early timid stages. I think not being desperate for OTC or ITC extras probably helps my chances of getting them. Well, that and spending a shitload on them.

I don't usually push the envelope like you do because I find that a reluctant girl tends to give poor service, and there are enough willing girls available that it's usually not necessary. Nevertheless, if I was incredibly into her, I wouldn't have a problem with what you mentioned. As someone suggested in my recent thread about the dancer who lied to me about having real breasts (maybe Papi?). all is fair in love, war and sales.

However, there is definitely a line that should not be crossed. That would include, for example, not paying her what you promise, or trying to force her to do something that was not previously agreed to.

I was about to tell a young stripper that she would be very happy in my bed because among other things I've been having sex (i e. Lots of experience) longer than she has been alive. Then decided it would probably freak her out.

She was much more receptive to that fact when she finally caught her breath after our first romp.

For one thing, you may be overly flattering yourself to think you've been so successful in bullshitting strippers. It's dubious that their wavering about doing OTC was actually wavering about believing your bullshit. They were probably wavering about things that had nothing to do with your bullshitting. Will this mean I'm a whore? Will word get around so that everyone will think I'm a whore? Is this guy safe? Will fucking this old guy be so gross it will give me ongoing traumatic flashbacks? Etc.

Bullshitting is the classic case where the but-mom-everyone-else-was-doing-it excuse completely applies. Nothing get bought or sold without bullshitting. Societies that try to be so kiss-ass nice that bullshitting is supposedly eliminated just end up being 100% bullshit with somebody like Stalin or Mao in charge.

I am blessed with a somewhat rare situation. I'm somewhat hard to replace at work, and no one feels motivated to give a shit what my opinions are, one way or the other. So I'm under no pressure to bullshit. Therefore, my not bullshitting strippers (except for what I would consider "white" lies) is just my normal behavior.

If somebody works in sales or management, they would be fired for not bullshitting at work, so it's to be expected they would have few qualms about bullshitting strippers.

I guess one clear reason to pull your bullshit punches is that, typically, we have the significant advantage of being 20 - 30 years older than our purveyors of pulchritude.

I stick by the old adage, "Yes means yes, no means no," and just leave it at that. Anything else can just make a mess of the situation.

Capitalizing on a moment of weakness is not something that should keep you up at night. These are adult women making their own decisions.

Outright lies are more of a moral gray area. But implying things could lead to a sugarbaby situation is not the same as promising such. Such arrangements are always "at will" and can be ended by either party at any time.

My company sometimes does additional work for clients with the hope of landing bigger contracts with them down the line. But until that future contract is signed, nothing is guaranteed.

There are definitely lines I would never cross; proclamations of love, promises of marriage (u less they were sincere). But ultimately, you are negotiating that night, and ultimately it's a professional transaction.

You mean strippers have to be manipulated into having sex? I learned something new today. I thought they were horny little sluts who figured they might as well get paid for it, too.

It was enough trouble talking civi girls into having sex.

I just don't think there is anything to feel guilty about. You always say how you pay them well, and what they need is money so whats to feel guilty about? Dugan you should be lauded as a humanitarian.

The System is just too powerful RickyBoy. It's like hunting rabbits with a bazooka.

Corvus, very true. Experience is a great teacher, but the girls have to learn that lesson thru experience.

In the case of my DS, the young guys she's had sex with had little experience. They pleased themselves but didn't know how to truly please her. She has now learned that an older man not only has money, but also knows how to bring her great pleasure. But she had to find that out for herself. Now way I could have used that as a sales tool up front.

unless of course I'm just dreaming the whole thing. Does make logical sense though.

I wonder if RickyBoy was looking for a serious answer here... Or just the circle-jerk that he got. Mission Accomplished!

LOL Dougster! Just brilliant!

If I had a system it would be to always remember to wipe very well! Once you've got a clean asscrack you can face anything life throws at you!

Or use a bidet! They're brilliant!

@rickdugan: "but in moments of introspection I do sometimes question the morality of some of the things that I've done to get to the goal line."

Then why do it? That's a serious question. In some of your examples, you are essentially lying to them about your intentions. Is pussy so important to you?

On the other hand, I'm not sure that suggesting that you might see her again if she puts out amounts to much in the way of a moral lapse. Unless, of course, you have no intention of seeing her again.

As for where I draw the line, I don't remember the last time that I had to do more than offer some cash for a girl who was willing in the first place. I *have* pursued woman who initially said no, and it's paid off, but not by promising, or even intimating, more than I was prepared to give.

I personally am not going to be much interested in girls who don't want to be there, and while I'm sure that more than a few would have preferred to be anywhwre but sucking my dick, they were at least adept enough to hide that fact from me.

I'd rather have an enthusiastic seeming partner than one I had to lie, or "suggest", into getting into my bed.

If a girl is vacillating, I do try to sweeten the pot. I never do the "eventual travel companion/sugar daddy" sell. For me, what I've found often sweetens the deal is "all I'm looking for is a handjob ... if we do that, I'm happy. Don't say yes unless you'll go that far." This seals the deal shockingly often, I've had at least one girl tell me that handjobs barely even count as sex. And, honestly, what I'm saying is true, I AM happy with a handjob, although it's VERY rare that we get to the room and a HJ is all that happens (by the time we get to the room, she's comfortable and happy, I've fed her and liquored her up and we've had some laughs), there's almost always an instant upgrade to BJ if not FS

Mr. Dugan, this does make for a good time for me to comment on your System.

It looks to me that you came to this System as the alternative to calling an escort. This makes sense. Always better to be able to meet face to face first.

But suppose we could have very high grade brothels? Or even lounge hookers, or street hookers. Wouldn't that give you the same thing?

As far as intimating that you could be an eventual travel partner, or a sugar daddy, perhaps that is not really having the effect you think it does. If the girl is reluctant to engage in OTC with someone she does not know, would these other intimations really win her over? If she is having cash problems, would that really sway her?

Probably just that you are spending more time talking with her and showing her your kinder side are what do it.

But likewise, if you were willing to tip at stage or do some dances with her, all the things that the System rules out, maybe that also would help sway her.

And then, would you be interested in seeing a girl regularly, being a sugar daddy, or making her into a travel companion? Or is that all more in the domain of JS69?

SJG

I think that it is very important to be honest with the stripper regarding OTC. For a reluctant stripper, I may up the deal to $300/hour or more. I do not play around or try to pretend to want a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship. I tell her upfront that I need BBBJ and CFS for one hour. She can take it or leave it. These girls always have tons of problems from narcotic abuse to late payment of rent to babysitting fees. I let her know upfront. No games; no pretense. This way, my time is no wasted and there are no hurt feelings.

@ujay, if it goes well doing OTC with a girl, then will you contact her again for another session? And then if that goes well will you start spending time with her other places, following along the lines of @JS69?

And then if that goes well would you start bringing her to you own home? At least it is cheaper than a hotel, so why not? And then if she wants to make your breakfast in the morning, would you tell her not to?

There are couple of people regularly posting for whom there seem to be few boundaries between what goes on in the SC, and their personal life. I am not living like that ... yet. But in a particular way I plan to be.

SJG

To respond to some of the comments and/or to add to my own:

I don't go the distance too often, but when I do it is because the girl is just that hot. I save the big efforts for those that I really want to score with. It is also a soft sell approach when I do dangle travel or SD concepts. I want them to get on the hook themselves rather than trying to jam the hook in, which rarely works anyway.

But with all of that said, I agree with those who say no harm, no foul, and disagree with those who have some moral objection to what I do. I certainly don't lie about what I will pay them and I always pay my tab. I have even been known to give a girl some cash when she has already committed and I bail at the last minute.

@RickyBoy: Why on earth did you ask the question in the first place if you already had your "mind" (see how i put that in quotes) made up?

(5,027 and counting).

Rick Dugan, you're just an incorrigible seducer of virtuous young women. You really should be ashamed of yourself, convincing so many innocent girls to do things that none of us common PLs could ever dream of getting them to do. Why can't you be content with bedding the straight-up whores the rest of us have to resort to? I would ask how you can live with this on your conscience, except I have to admit you are only succeeding where the rest of us, deep down inside, wish we could, you charming rascal.

LOL.

All kidding aside, that's the kind of response you were fishing for with this topic, wasn't it? Why else would you first say you question the morality of what you do, then disagree with others who say that?

subraman, only problem with your approach is I wouldn't be satisfied with a handjob. Plus it seems to set the girl up to demand more money in the heat of things. I agree with ujay -- discuss everything up front with nothing left for negotiation during sex.

Chandler posted: "All kidding aside, that's the kind of response you were fishing for with this topic, wasn't it? Why else would you first say you question the morality of what you do, then disagree with others who say that?"
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I posted this because I was genuinely curious as to how other guys, presumably with some experience in these matters, were handling this. Nothing more or less. The reason that I agreed with the sentiments that I did is that I found the arguments supporting them to be more compelling. Perhaps I am just looking to assuage a bit of guilt. Perhaps I wanted to know if other guys were going further than I was.

When you assume, including assuming that I have some ulterior motive simply because I put a situation to the group and then shared my own views, you make an ass out of you and, well, you actually. Maybe the novelty of an attempted discussion about, and polling of members' thoughts relating to, strippers threw you off a bit. Perhaps you enjoy 12,600 pointless thread bumps, troll comments and OT discussion threads instead. Fear not, I have no doubt that we'll be back to the regularly scheduled crap soon enough. ;)

RickyBoy: "including assuming that I have some ulterior motive simply because I put a situation to the group and then shared my own views, you make an ass out of you and, well"

Wow! Very original joke RickyBoy. I can see what you mean by how original the stuff you post is compared to others. When did that movie come out? 60s? 70s?

This is a funny thread.

But Rick, bragging about OTC conquests is the #1 reason anybody posts on this board. It's really nothing to get all huffy about. And you know, that "assume" zinger really hit home. I'm sure you don't dust off timeless material like that for just anyone, so we have that to be thankful for.

Anyway, this is all far too close to stripper-related discussion for my comfort. I'm just here for the pointless thread bumps.

Chandler, discussing is not the same as bragging, nor is polling the group for their thoughts. I do a lot of OTC and that is not bragging either, just a simple fact. I come here to share the good, the bad and the ugly relating to OTC, clubs, strippers in general, etc., with purportedly like minded folks. I'm not sure why that bothers you so much as this seems to be the place to do that, or at least it used to be. If bragging was really my end game, there's a lot of unflattering stuff I would have excluded from my posts over the years, but I didn't.

But if someone coming on here and exchanging thoughts about OTC activities bothers you so much, then maybe you really ARE here for the pointless thread bumps. And don't forget the troll comments and OT discussions - you don't want to miss those either. ;)

Suit yourself. Do get huffy then.

BTW, the way I know there are trolls here half the time is when you respond to them.

^^^ seems alot of people had no problem recognizing your motivation here, RickyBoy. What is it? Criteria #8 of your personality damage. Deny all you want. We KNOW!

Lol!