What is appropriate as far as voluntary tipping for a lapdance? Girls often seem surprised when I give a decent tip after a LD; once after a long LD, I gave a tip that was the same amount as the cost of another dance. The dancer was shocked by it, and almost wouldn't accept it, but it was only a 20% tip. I wouldn't leave a restaurant without leaving at least 15% unless I was really dissatisfied, but I've been getting the impression that they are much more optional after LD. How optional do you think they are and what do you think is appropriate after a $20, $60, or $120 dance?
I think it makes a huge difference how well you know the club and girl. If I'm in a new club and don't know anyone, I will usually ask a girl to join me for a drink, we'll sit and talk for awhile, then head off for some private dances. We may spend 1-2 hours together. And at the end I will usually tip her something for the whole experience, the amount depending on how she treated me.
But if I'm in a club that I frequent regularly, and especially if I'm with a girl who I know really well and like a lot, I will always give her a big tip whether we do any private dances or not. I will do exactly what Chitown does. I don't mind compensating her just for her time because she's at work. It isn't any different than going to a restaurant, if an attractrive waitress stops and talks to me and is really nice to me, she's going to get a bigger tip. Every waitress knows that. When my ATF was a waitress, she used to describe it as "flirting for a living."
There are a lot of clubs in places like DC where there are no private dances. Girls sit and talk to customers in exchange for tips. That's how it works, that's how they make their money. I don't see any reason to treat dancers differently just because the club has private dances. Sometimes I don't want any private dances, maybe I don't have that much time. But I still usually tip the girl.
I agree with a lot of what davids says here. I never tip for conversation time or even for extended cuddling and petting time. I am pretty generous about buying dancers drinks and shots while they're keeping me company, but something about a straight cash-for-time deal would feel weird. I probably spend more time sitting alone than chitown does, but I don't make out too badly.
Also, I know a few girls who reserve their strongest contempt for customers who pay them for conversation time. I don't know whether they're offended in the ways davids theorizes. I've never analyzed it. What I hear is more about how pathetic the guy must be, and how awkward the girls feel talking to him under the circumstance. Although, to watch them go through one of these sessions, you would think they're having a grand time.
The closest experience I can use to relate to it is sitting through a boring meeting that does nothing to benefit anyone and keeps me from getting real work done, even though I am able to bill full rate for my meeting time.
I'm not telling you this, chitown, as if it's any kind of upsetting revelation. It may not have any bearing at all on the kind of arrangements you make. It sounds like you've got an approach that serves you fine. Even I appreciate your time/value rationale. And, for that matter, the girls I've heard this from could be bullshitting me, and off telling their convo-johns about what a drag it is spending time with me, but I doubt it.
The guys I hear about typically propose a deal up front. $100 for an hour or a half hour, something like that. One guy I remember even paid $200 for 20 minutes of dirty talk, and then begged her for OTC sex. Then, there are the guys who routinely tip when the girls gets up to leave - a lower rate, but still pretty generous. These tippers receive less contempt, I think, than the former type, but still some. I've almost been tempted to do this at times.
chitown: Just how do you make the transaction? Deal up front or tip when she gets up to leave or what?
By the way, the dancers with whom I have discussed the issue are straightforward about the fact that couch dances and VIPs are where they make their money, and that stage dancing is just an advertisement for the high-revenue producing activities. In fact, the many of the best dancers, such as my ATF don't even go on stage, since they don't need any new business...they spend the evening doing VIPs with their regulars, plus any new guys lucky enough to get in between the regulars.
davids: I think you are plumbing the depths of my psyche here. As you have correctly opined, I am happily married, but go to sc's for a little variety. Perhaps paying for the entire, even the conversation, helps me insulate the experience from being anything personal.
However, you have piqued my curiosity. The next time I go to a club, I will not pay for time spent merely in conversation. I'm not sure that it should be Favorite Club, since I've already established a pattern there. HOwever, the next time I am out of town and find a club that can serve as a suitable control, I'll do as you suggest, and report back on the results.
I just hope this isn't like the last scene in "Tora! Tora! Tora!": "I fear that we have wakened a sleeping giant."
chitown: I think I mentioned it in another thread but I won't worry about any "oppurtunity cost" to the strippers. They are prudent enough to be able to smell when there is money in the room and when there isn't.
Tipping on stage is fine. Strippers, no matter what they are doing in the VIP, consider themselves to be "exotic dances", so in that case you paying them for what they imagine their work to be. (I have the odd notion that some dancers actually think the stage show is what gets the customers turned on and the LD just "finishes them off").
Similarly I think tipping for LDs is ok since that is part of their job. (Not the part they like to admit, though).
You (obviously) can pay for conversation if you want, but if you do you lower your chances of getting it for free. Also they will respect you less. But maybe you don't care since you are already married and what not.
Have you tried not paying them, and seeing if they still talk to you anyway?
"The only thing I would suggest is not paying strippers for conversation. Your personality should be enough to make them want to talk to you for free. If you pay them for their time I believe it insults them: suggesting they have an ulterior motive in talking to you. It also makes them disrespect you: thinking you can buy their friendship, or that you think your personality cannot win them over on its own merits.
Try this instead: Make friends with other employees in the club like the waitresses, bartenders, doormen, oh and especially the DJ if you can. Try to establish yourself with them as a good and friendly customer who has a good personality and treats people. Tip these other employees well but not extravagantly. Buy the waitresses some drinks if your club allows this. Word will get around. You will then find strippers talking to you for free, even if you are not buying dances from them. Sometimes even ones you never buy dances from. Does that sound hard to believe? It probably does but it really works. "
*************
I don't mind paying for time spent in conversation, because I don't see it as buying their attention or affection. I see it as compensating them for the time they have lost from, potentially, dancing for other customers. I charge the same hourly rate to customers for all my work. When I am driving to a courthouse in a distant part of the state, I may be the most expensive driver around, because the client is paying me full rate. But the client is not paying me for what I am doing...the client is paying me for what I cannot be doing...appearing in court, or working on cases in my office...because I am driving to a distant place to represent them. In the same way, when I pay a dancer after she sits with me for a while, I am not paying her for her conversation, but I am recognizing that she could have been making money dancing while she was talking to me instead.
I have never known a dancer to be offended by being given money.. I have rarely known anyone, in any condition of life, to be offended by being offered money. If, as I found out, dancers are not embarrassed by having money thrown at their person, in quick succession of singles, but one at a time, while they are dancing, with the expectation that they will gather every single on their hands and knees at the conclusion of the set (the so-called "money shower", a practice that strikes me as a degrading and humiliating practice), I doubt that anything relating to money could offend them.
Due to having gone to the same club about once a month for the past 2 1/2 or 3 years, I have become what I would call a "cordial acquaintance" with some of the staff at the club, with some of the results that you suggest. Given that I really can't, from a practical point of view, increase the frequency of my visits, I think that this is where it will continue to be.
I enjoy the company of dancers. However, I do note that few of them appear to spend their leisure time in the company of middle-aged lawyers (at least not voluntarily). Therefore, I recognize that their willingness to spend time with me has, at the very least, a substantial financial component, and recognizing that means paying them something even for time spent in conversation. I don't, by the way, pay girls that I find unattractive (either physically or emotionally), as long as I have been giving them fair notice that I want them to leave me alone.
My high tipping actually comes from ignorance. Keep in mind that no one introduced me to the sc scene...I went by myself while on business. I guess I was so blown away by the contact in the Houston clubs that I first went to ( a large case in the mid 90s took me to Houston about twice a month for 18 months) that I thought the pricing structure in clubs had to be like that in restaurants, where a tip for the staff was expected. By the time that I found out otherwise, I was firmly esconced in my current payment mode...which my ATF says is far too much money to pay (to other dancers).
Yeah, what I dislike about the club taking a cut isn't so much the money, it's the mere fact that a third party is keeping a count. That approach indicates that they will likely be interfering in other aspects of my visit that I will not enjoy.
When I have a favorite, I will often tell her how much I'm going to give her in advance before we start the dances, and let her decide how many dances to give me for that. Usually neither one of us will bother counting, we'll just go til it seems like a good time to stop. The beauty of that approach is that she will often take a song off now and then and we'll just sit in the LD room and cuddle and talk. Of course you can only do that in clubs where you deal directly with the girl. I generally avoid clubs where a third party gets involved in the transaction.
Although I don't tip for lap dances, I'm constantly tipping at the stage, assuming I like the girl. I almost always tip just $1, but I think the girls appreciate the gesture more than the amount. A lot of times, nobody else is tipping, so it breaks up the boredom and maybe encourges others to tip. When there's already a bunch of other guys tipping a girl, I'll take a pass.
Is it in San Francisco where the whole dance fee is called a tip? Just to add to the confusion, it's always collected before the dance, so I suppose afterwards you could reward a job well done by adding a tip to her tip.
Chitown: In your situation I would be doing exactly what you are doing. In my home club I'm known as a good customer, a good tipper and a nice guy. I don't walk through the door without planning on spending a fair amount of cash and I don't limit that to lap dances. Waitresses and bartenders work for tips as do ALL of the ladies on stage-even if I'm not buying a dance from them.
I'm by no means a high-roller but I don't sit in the corner nursing a drink for three hours while looking over the shoulder of the guy who's tipping trying to get a glimpse while looking for that one girl that will give me extras or her phone number all for the price of a $20 dance.
blah, blah,blah. In all my babbling I forgot my point...I go to my home club on "2 for $20" days. Nude dances are 2 for twenty dollars all day. My usual MO is to buy $100 worth of dances from my favs and tip $20. This may be 2 to 4 girls depending on who is working that day and how long I want to stay.
I almost never tip for a lap dance. I can't remember the last time I was in a club where one was expected, so my assumption is that a tip is built into the dance fee. My way of showing appreciation* for an especially good lap dance is to buy more dances.
Chitown, I go to DC clubs after work for the most part, so my lapping visits are rare. In the DC clubs I've started tipping at least $2 per song at the stage side (I usually sit on pervert row). For my favorite dancers I also do $5. If you figure that I was tipping $1 per song 10 or 12 years ago, $2 seems about right to me now. At my regular club these minimal tips usually run me about $30-$40/hour, and I'm considered a good tipper by the dancers.
chitown: From what I've read you have different motivations for being in SCs than most posters here. It sounds to me like you are happily married and just go to SCs for a bit of occasional variety with no intenion of forming relationships with any of the strippers. (Hope I haven't confused you with someone else.) I am not sure if you are going for sex or not. If you are then I think escorts would be the better alternative. Since you seem to have a clue though and haven't taken that route I assume it is because you aren't in SC for sex.
If my assumptions are correct, let me say that I think you have a perfectly acceptable reason for spending money in strip clubs. I think your tipping strategy is reasonable for dances is reasonable as well.
The only thing I would suggest is not paying strippers for conversation. Your personality should be enough to make them want to talk to you for free. If you pay them for their time I believe it insults them: suggesting they have an ulterior motive in talking to you. It also makes them disrespect you: thinking you can buy their friendship, or that you think your personality cannot win them over on its own merits.
Try this instead: Make friends with other employees in the club like the waitresses, bartenders, doormen, oh and especially the DJ if you can. Try to establish yourself with them as a good and friendly customer who has a good personality and treats people. Tip these other employees well but not extravagantly. Buy the waitresses some drinks if your club allows this. Word will get around. You will then find strippers talking to you for free, even if you are not buying dances from them. Sometimes even ones you never buy dances from. Does that sound hard to believe? It probably does but it really works.
Some strip club employees and even strippers are regular people who just like to talk with friendly customers, no strings attached. It's too bad that customers have been trained to think they have to pay for everything.
It gets worse...increasingly I am tipping $5 at the rail. $1 doesn't seem to be enough for the services provided, and it is awkward to screw around with multiple singles..besides, once you are up to $2 or $3, what the hell difference does another $2 or $3 make?
I should stress...I only go about once a month...the experience is still more in the realm of a trip to Six Flags than a regular place to stop off after work. If I went more often, I'm sure I would tip more...but I doubt that I would go that often. It would be like having ice cream every night. But that is a different thread.
Good lord Chitown, you'd almost think you saw them as...people.
I usually don't tip on a LD unless I get more than one, or unless it is reaaly good. This is more of a guideline than a rule. If I'm aware of a large tipout or club cut (I sometimes ask) I'll often cover the club cut for a good dance. When I make it to a LD club I'll usually get a few from different girls till I find one I want to stick with. When I do I usually tip about $20 after 4 or 5 dances. I'll often get a free dance for it later, and I'll always tip on a free dance. On one occasion I've been bold enough to barter 4 for $60, and in the end I tipped $20.
I'll tell you how I tip, although I'm sure it will subject me to huge amount of flaming and other criticism.
As the other regulars on this board know, I tend to frequent one specific club. Under those circumstances, it is important to to have a reputation for being cheap. Also, the dancers at the club I go to give extraordinary dances (which is why I am such a devotee).
My club has $10 full contact couch dances. At this point, I rarely get these, since I know who I want to take straight to VIP. However, unless the couch dance is terrible, I will tip another $10.
My club has legendary $50 VIPs, of which the house gets $10. Unless the dance is terrible, I will tip the dancer another $20 on top of her share. If the dance is good to great, the tip rises accordingly. Rarely do I give the "minimum" $20 tip.
If a girl sits and talks for me for 10-15 minutes or more, and I am encouraging her to do so, or at least not actively trying to get rid of her, and for some reason do not get a dance from her, I will tip her $20 for her time.
I think it depends on both the club and the girl. In a club where the house takes a slice of the LD fee, a tip is usually expected because otherwise the girl doesn't make very much from the dance. In some places the fee is for renting the room and house keeps the entire fee, and the girls will routinely ask for a tip or dance fee up front, often an amount equivalent to the room charge.
In clubs where the girl can keep it all, tipping is usually less common. In such places I usually ony tip a girl who I know well and see regularly, or one who spends a lot of time with me. I don't normally tip a girl who I just met and who only does a couple of dances for me. But if she spends time sitting and talking in addition to the dance, I will usually tip her maybe $20 extra.
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But if I'm in a club that I frequent regularly, and especially if I'm with a girl who I know really well and like a lot, I will always give her a big tip whether we do any private dances or not. I will do exactly what Chitown does. I don't mind compensating her just for her time because she's at work. It isn't any different than going to a restaurant, if an attractrive waitress stops and talks to me and is really nice to me, she's going to get a bigger tip. Every waitress knows that. When my ATF was a waitress, she used to describe it as "flirting for a living."
There are a lot of clubs in places like DC where there are no private dances. Girls sit and talk to customers in exchange for tips. That's how it works, that's how they make their money. I don't see any reason to treat dancers differently just because the club has private dances. Sometimes I don't want any private dances, maybe I don't have that much time. But I still usually tip the girl.
Also, I know a few girls who reserve their strongest contempt for customers who pay them for conversation time. I don't know whether they're offended in the ways davids theorizes. I've never analyzed it. What I hear is more about how pathetic the guy must be, and how awkward the girls feel talking to him under the circumstance. Although, to watch them go through one of these sessions, you would think they're having a grand time.
The closest experience I can use to relate to it is sitting through a boring meeting that does nothing to benefit anyone and keeps me from getting real work done, even though I am able to bill full rate for my meeting time.
I'm not telling you this, chitown, as if it's any kind of upsetting revelation. It may not have any bearing at all on the kind of arrangements you make. It sounds like you've got an approach that serves you fine. Even I appreciate your time/value rationale. And, for that matter, the girls I've heard this from could be bullshitting me, and off telling their convo-johns about what a drag it is spending time with me, but I doubt it.
The guys I hear about typically propose a deal up front. $100 for an hour or a half hour, something like that. One guy I remember even paid $200 for 20 minutes of dirty talk, and then begged her for OTC sex. Then, there are the guys who routinely tip when the girls gets up to leave - a lower rate, but still pretty generous. These tippers receive less contempt, I think, than the former type, but still some. I've almost been tempted to do this at times.
chitown: Just how do you make the transaction? Deal up front or tip when she gets up to leave or what?
However, you have piqued my curiosity. The next time I go to a club, I will not pay for time spent merely in conversation. I'm not sure that it should be Favorite Club, since I've already established a pattern there. HOwever, the next time I am out of town and find a club that can serve as a suitable control, I'll do as you suggest, and report back on the results.
I just hope this isn't like the last scene in "Tora! Tora! Tora!": "I fear that we have wakened a sleeping giant."
Tipping on stage is fine. Strippers, no matter what they are doing in the VIP, consider themselves to be "exotic dances", so in that case you paying them for what they imagine their work to be. (I have the odd notion that some dancers actually think the stage show is what gets the customers turned on and the LD just "finishes them off").
Similarly I think tipping for LDs is ok since that is part of their job. (Not the part they like to admit, though).
You (obviously) can pay for conversation if you want, but if you do you lower your chances of getting it for free. Also they will respect you less. But maybe you don't care since you are already married and what not.
Have you tried not paying them, and seeing if they still talk to you anyway?
Try this instead: Make friends with other employees in the club like the waitresses, bartenders, doormen, oh and especially the DJ if you can. Try to establish yourself with them as a good and friendly customer who has a good personality and treats people. Tip these other employees well but not extravagantly. Buy the waitresses some drinks if your club allows this. Word will get around. You will then find strippers talking to you for free, even if you are not buying dances from them. Sometimes even ones you never buy dances from. Does that sound hard to believe? It probably does but it really works. "
*************
I don't mind paying for time spent in conversation, because I don't see it as buying their attention or affection. I see it as compensating them for the time they have lost from, potentially, dancing for other customers. I charge the same hourly rate to customers for all my work. When I am driving to a courthouse in a distant part of the state, I may be the most expensive driver around, because the client is paying me full rate. But the client is not paying me for what I am doing...the client is paying me for what I cannot be doing...appearing in court, or working on cases in my office...because I am driving to a distant place to represent them. In the same way, when I pay a dancer after she sits with me for a while, I am not paying her for her conversation, but I am recognizing that she could have been making money dancing while she was talking to me instead.
I have never known a dancer to be offended by being given money.. I have rarely known anyone, in any condition of life, to be offended by being offered money. If, as I found out, dancers are not embarrassed by having money thrown at their person, in quick succession of singles, but one at a time, while they are dancing, with the expectation that they will gather every single on their hands and knees at the conclusion of the set (the so-called "money shower", a practice that strikes me as a degrading and humiliating practice), I doubt that anything relating to money could offend them.
Due to having gone to the same club about once a month for the past 2 1/2 or 3 years, I have become what I would call a "cordial acquaintance" with some of the staff at the club, with some of the results that you suggest. Given that I really can't, from a practical point of view, increase the frequency of my visits, I think that this is where it will continue to be.
I enjoy the company of dancers. However, I do note that few of them appear to spend their leisure time in the company of middle-aged lawyers (at least not voluntarily). Therefore, I recognize that their willingness to spend time with me has, at the very least, a substantial financial component, and recognizing that means paying them something even for time spent in conversation. I don't, by the way, pay girls that I find unattractive (either physically or emotionally), as long as I have been giving them fair notice that I want them to leave me alone.
My high tipping actually comes from ignorance. Keep in mind that no one introduced me to the sc scene...I went by myself while on business. I guess I was so blown away by the contact in the Houston clubs that I first went to ( a large case in the mid 90s took me to Houston about twice a month for 18 months) that I thought the pricing structure in clubs had to be like that in restaurants, where a tip for the staff was expected. By the time that I found out otherwise, I was firmly esconced in my current payment mode...which my ATF says is far too much money to pay (to other dancers).
I'm by no means a high-roller but I don't sit in the corner nursing a drink for three hours while looking over the shoulder of the guy who's tipping trying to get a glimpse while looking for that one girl that will give me extras or her phone number all for the price of a $20 dance.
*Involuntary appreciation excepted.
If my assumptions are correct, let me say that I think you have a perfectly acceptable reason for spending money in strip clubs. I think your tipping strategy is reasonable for dances is reasonable as well.
The only thing I would suggest is not paying strippers for conversation. Your personality should be enough to make them want to talk to you for free. If you pay them for their time I believe it insults them: suggesting they have an ulterior motive in talking to you. It also makes them disrespect you: thinking you can buy their friendship, or that you think your personality cannot win them over on its own merits.
Try this instead: Make friends with other employees in the club like the waitresses, bartenders, doormen, oh and especially the DJ if you can. Try to establish yourself with them as a good and friendly customer who has a good personality and treats people. Tip these other employees well but not extravagantly. Buy the waitresses some drinks if your club allows this. Word will get around. You will then find strippers talking to you for free, even if you are not buying dances from them. Sometimes even ones you never buy dances from. Does that sound hard to believe? It probably does but it really works.
Some strip club employees and even strippers are regular people who just like to talk with friendly customers, no strings attached. It's too bad that customers have been trained to think they have to pay for everything.
I should stress...I only go about once a month...the experience is still more in the realm of a trip to Six Flags than a regular place to stop off after work. If I went more often, I'm sure I would tip more...but I doubt that I would go that often. It would be like having ice cream every night. But that is a different thread.
I usually don't tip on a LD unless I get more than one, or unless it is reaaly good. This is more of a guideline than a rule. If I'm aware of a large tipout or club cut (I sometimes ask) I'll often cover the club cut for a good dance. When I make it to a LD club I'll usually get a few from different girls till I find one I want to stick with. When I do I usually tip about $20 after 4 or 5 dances. I'll often get a free dance for it later, and I'll always tip on a free dance. On one occasion I've been bold enough to barter 4 for $60, and in the end I tipped $20.
As the other regulars on this board know, I tend to frequent one specific club. Under those circumstances, it is important to to have a reputation for being cheap. Also, the dancers at the club I go to give extraordinary dances (which is why I am such a devotee).
My club has $10 full contact couch dances. At this point, I rarely get these, since I know who I want to take straight to VIP. However, unless the couch dance is terrible, I will tip another $10.
My club has legendary $50 VIPs, of which the house gets $10. Unless the dance is terrible, I will tip the dancer another $20 on top of her share. If the dance is good to great, the tip rises accordingly. Rarely do I give the "minimum" $20 tip.
If a girl sits and talks for me for 10-15 minutes or more, and I am encouraging her to do so, or at least not actively trying to get rid of her, and for some reason do not get a dance from her, I will tip her $20 for her time.
RL...davids...let the flaming begin!!!
In clubs where the girl can keep it all, tipping is usually less common. In such places I usually ony tip a girl who I know well and see regularly, or one who spends a lot of time with me. I don't normally tip a girl who I just met and who only does a couple of dances for me. But if she spends time sitting and talking in addition to the dance, I will usually tip her maybe $20 extra.