Human trafficking: strip clubs vs spas
Electronman
Too much of a good thing is never enough
I've visited a lot of strip clubs around the country and I've never seen any obvious signs of human trafficking. The dancers appeared to be free to come and go at will (and the club managers certainly complain about the unpredictable dancer work schedules). Many, but not all, of the dancers in my area provide extras but appear to do so willingly. Those that provide extra reluctantly seldom mention any coercion but appear to be motivated by competition from other dancers who are willing to provide extras. Although many dancers complain about the tip out or the club "tax," the dancers appear to be fairly compensated and the amount of compensation is based on how much work they do. I presume that there is very little human trafficking in strip clubs, as long as the dancers are above the age of consent.
In contrast, I recently made my first ever visit to an AMP and enjoyed a "massage" with an attractive, middle aged Korean woman (where are the beautiful 20 year old women in the advertisements?). Anyhow, I saw a few signs that made me worry about trafficking. The woman worked very long hours, like 14 hour shifts and seldom left the building. She did not own a car. She knew very little about the surrounding area. Her English was marginal. While I enjoyed my visit, I left concerned about the potential for human trafficking.
So fellow TUSCLer's (or is it TUSCLites?), am I being naive about the relative absence of human trafficking in strip clubs? Am I being overly sensitive to the signs of human trafficking in AMPs? I'm reluctant to direct any of my business to an establishment that might be engaged in human trafficking or any kind of human abuse. Is this justified? What would you do?
In contrast, I recently made my first ever visit to an AMP and enjoyed a "massage" with an attractive, middle aged Korean woman (where are the beautiful 20 year old women in the advertisements?). Anyhow, I saw a few signs that made me worry about trafficking. The woman worked very long hours, like 14 hour shifts and seldom left the building. She did not own a car. She knew very little about the surrounding area. Her English was marginal. While I enjoyed my visit, I left concerned about the potential for human trafficking.
So fellow TUSCLer's (or is it TUSCLites?), am I being naive about the relative absence of human trafficking in strip clubs? Am I being overly sensitive to the signs of human trafficking in AMPs? I'm reluctant to direct any of my business to an establishment that might be engaged in human trafficking or any kind of human abuse. Is this justified? What would you do?
30 comments
Now, I've been to AMP's before and LMP's. I've also worked at one(fixing a gas leak) and didn't see any signs of trafficking. Both Asian and Latina's worked there. The Latina's were bilingual while the Asian's weren't.
Does trafficking happen? Most definitely.
However, some trafficking does exist here. A couple months ago, a Ukrainian man was sentenced "to serve three years in prison for his role in a human-trafficking operation that smuggled eastern European women into the U.S. and forced them to work in local strip clubs." http://www.freep.com/article/20120524/NE…
In addition to foreign women, some Detroit strippers are probably being exploited by their pimps or pimp/boyfriends. I've never known a stripper with a pimp, but the level of exploitation may be difficult to assess in many cases. My ex-ATF told me that when she was married 10 years ago, her husband did not work but he made her work as a stripper 6 days a week. And he took all her money when she came home.
Serious? I've known that there were at least three who did. One of the guys on a local escort board, who seemed to know what he was talking about, when commenting on strippers said he thought it was as high as 1 in 12. I don't think that signs are going to "obvious" at all. Kind of like how guys on here think they would always be able to tell if their girl had a problem with heroin, say she doesn't they would know, then come back and say, oh looks like she did. Also find it hard to believe that Detroit would not be worse than Seattle - first because Detroit seems to be the capital for extras in SC in the US, and also because of the poverty in the area (human traffickers find easiest picking in poorer areas).
Strippers with pimp boyfriends is a different thing and harder to tell. I'm not minimizing the issue. I believe people should be free to do what they choose, so I'm obviously not cool with it. But how do you really tell? If a girl is dating or married to a dude that doesn't work and takes all her cash you can't know that unless she tells you. And even if she does tell you, how do you know it isn't SS?
However, I figure if a girl is American she at least wasn't brought here under false pretenses, locked in a room, separated from her passport, etc. If she is American she may have gotten herself into a bad situation (abusive boyfriend, drugs, whatever) but I can't know that. If it is obvious that a girl is in a bad situation I just don't enjoy that so I'm not going to support it. But there also isn't much to do about it.
http://bizgovsoc6.wordpress.com/2013/04/…
Interestingly, coercion exists on a continuum and deciding where to draw the line on unacceptable coercion can be tough. For example, is a woman with serious economic needs (e.g., a single mom with children or a woman with a drug habit), limited education and few employment skills being coerced if she elects to work as a stripper? For those who might be tempted to say "yes," how is this any different from the same woman working at a dead end job that she doesn't like and that pays minimum wage? If one involves unacceptable coercion,then both do, from my perspective.
http://www.polarisproject.org/human-traf…
I don't think Uncle Leo busts these places for no reason at all. These days LE is more aware of trafficking and the girls are not arrested unless they are American citizens over 18 years old. Not that I think wasting our tax dollars on arresting them is worthwhile, I don't. But we shouldn't turn a blind eye to sexual slavery either.
Here are a few examples where the FBI used the human trafficking excuse to raid massage parlors, but did not charge a single person with trafficking.
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf…
http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/national/fb…
http://www.rutlandherald.com/article/201…
We also had raids in NYC about a year ago of clubs that were purportedly trafficking Russian girls. Not only did they discover that the Russian girls were in the clubs willingly, but then they went as far as to charge some of the dancers.
http://www.ny1.com/content/news/151660/a…
Intuitively this makes sense. Both types of businesses have public profiles and storefronts. How many owners of these places would actually be stupid enough to use slave labor in places where anyone could walk in?
Yet instead of doing anything meaningful in the war against sex trafficking, such as pursuing bonified sex trafficking rings setting up shop in private locations, authorities have recently wasted a shit load of money, time and other resources hitting public adult entertainment venues, all the while waiving the trafficking banner as justification. Just ridiculous.
Now, as to the question as to whether there is real human traficing in the parlors and not just the potential here is an article for the 'signs' of it.
http://www.polarisproject.org/human-traf…
and I must say that for the ones that I have visited I couldn't answer yes or no to almost all of those questions.
When you say a dancer has more people they interact with and can help them out of a situation compared to an MP. this is true. But you forget that most trafficked or "pimped" women won't talk at all to get help. They live in fear or they live to make "daddy" happy and money.
Now to get onto the subject.... I think trafficking happens in both worlds. Maybe is more prolific in the AMP or MP situations because like mentioned by inno123 the Pimp or Mammasan has more control over everything than in a stripclub.
Now with the estimates out there about sex trafficking. I think it could be as high as 300,000 or even as low as 30,000. We just don't know because people won't talk who are involved. Also I think the bigger risk is the backpage ads and what not. Those are more trafficked than in strip clubs and AMP's.
But also like others have stated that the media and LE use "sex traffic" as something to brag about or to just curb public outcry. I mean if an AMP opens up in any town now people automaticly think "happy endings". Even if it is a legit place of business. Then you will have a do gooder type try and make waves or think they will need to save these girls....even when it is a legit place. I know in my area two closed down because of this. the women were not trafficked at all. But neighbor hood outcry forced the city to dig into everything and found out not all workers where licensed or had proper training. Some were even here on expired visa's. So the place shut down.
When I lived in Dallas I saw my fair share of AMPs and visited a few. As others have stated, I noticed the girls there seemed to live in the AMP and looked as if they rarely ventured outside. I recall once in an AMP looking thru an open door into another room and noticing girls lying down on mattresses that were on the floor – it seemed they lived in that room.
w.r.t. SCs; I believe is like others mentioned in that is probably not as prevalent and more likely with foreign women such as Eastern Euros.
w.r.t. pimps – like zipman and others have mentioned; how would one know. It seems that dancers in a club seem to have a better knowledge of which girls have pimps.
Aka "natashas".
Aka "natashas".
As best I can discern, the focus of these bills is to add taxes to strip clubs which will be paid by the customers, to require registration with a fee for adult entertainers, and to increase fines for "johns." The only piece of the legislative package that has any potential for helping victims of human trafficking is the provision of counseling services (rather than prosecution) for victims of human trafficking, especially underage victims.
I continue to be disappointed at the problem solving skills of our politicians. Rather than going after the perpetrators of human trafficking and the monetary incentives for human trafficking (this might require legalizing prostitution!), they go for a money grab from people who are not part of the problem or part of the solution.
There are some legit Asian massage parlors where you have private rooms.
With that you'd still have upscale nude clubs for dudes that want eye candy, strip club/brothels where chicks do more in the back room, and out-and-out brothels.
But I agree with Mr. Moose...if there is trafficking I don't want to be part of it. You never know, but if you see evidence don't participate.