Human trafficking: strip clubs vs spas

I've personally came across human trafficking in the agricultural and textile industries. I've called ICE when I saw what had to be trafficking in Downtown LA.

Now, I've been to AMP's before and LMP's. I've also worked at one(fixing a gas leak) and didn't see any signs of trafficking. Both Asian and Latina's worked there. The Latina's were bilingual while the Asian's weren't.

Does trafficking happen? Most definitely.

You should always be wary of the existence of human trafficking in any strip club. While I think most dancers do strip on their own free will, there are definitely some who are pimped out to the strip club. My favorite club has a couple girls who everyone calls the twins (which is not the case) where they have a pimp to support and I stay away from them. They are also the biggest ROB's there. If I think a girl is being pimped out, I stay away as far as possible. Of course, that doesn't mean I'm not wrong about some girls, but I do think most of them do it on their own free will. That's why I also stay away from AMP's (although it helps that I don't know where such a place exists in my area).

I've never been to an AMP, and so I can't comment on massage parlors. As for strip clubs, I have never seen any evidence of human trafficking in them. I believe Electronman lives in the Detroit area like I do, and here almost all the dancers are American-born English speakers. Extras--or so I've been told--are available in Detroit strip clubs, but the girls do them willingly.

However, some trafficking does exist here. A couple months ago, a Ukrainian man was sentenced "to serve three years in prison for his role in a human-trafficking operation that smuggled eastern European women into the U.S. and forced them to work in local strip clubs." freep.com

In addition to foreign women, some Detroit strippers are probably being exploited by their pimps or pimp/boyfriends. I've never known a stripper with a pimp, but the level of exploitation may be difficult to assess in many cases. My ex-ATF told me that when she was married 10 years ago, her husband did not work but he made her work as a stripper 6 days a week. And he took all her money when she came home.

jackslash: "I've never known a stripper with a pimp, but the level of exploitation may be difficult to assess in many cases"

Serious? I've known that there were at least three who did. One of the guys on a local escort board, who seemed to know what he was talking about, when commenting on strippers said he thought it was as high as 1 in 12. I don't think that signs are going to "obvious" at all. Kind of like how guys on here think they would always be able to tell if their girl had a problem with heroin, say she doesn't they would know, then come back and say, oh looks like she did. Also find it hard to believe that Detroit would not be worse than Seattle - first because Detroit seems to be the capital for extras in SC in the US, and also because of the poverty in the area (human traffickers find easiest picking in poorer areas).

I think of human trafficking vs being pimped out as two different things. Human trafficking is the case where a woman is far from home, often a foreign country, and subjected to a high level of controlled (e.g., by having her passport kept by somebody else). I don't know what proportion of AMPs have human trafficking victims working there, but I'm sure it is high and I wouldn't go to them for that reason (even if they were my scene).

Strippers with pimp boyfriends is a different thing and harder to tell. I'm not minimizing the issue. I believe people should be free to do what they choose, so I'm obviously not cool with it. But how do you really tell? If a girl is dating or married to a dude that doesn't work and takes all her cash you can't know that unless she tells you. And even if she does tell you, how do you know it isn't SS?

However, I figure if a girl is American she at least wasn't brought here under false pretenses, locked in a room, separated from her passport, etc. If she is American she may have gotten herself into a bad situation (abusive boyfriend, drugs, whatever) but I can't know that. If it is obvious that a girl is in a bad situation I just don't enjoy that so I'm not going to support it. But there also isn't much to do about it.

One of the best and easiest ways to battle human trafficking is to monitor and adjust your purchasing habits. If you buy or own stock in Tyson Foods, maybe you might want to read this article.

bizgovsoc6.wordpress.com

It is more likely to be in AMPs.

Good observation about the connection between human trafficking and pimping. Both involve a high level of coercion, sometimes using threats of physical violence, to insure that people engage in activities that benefit the coercer more than the person being coerced. Both are unacceptable from my perspective but pimping may be a bit more difficult to detect, even in a strip club.

Interestingly, coercion exists on a continuum and deciding where to draw the line on unacceptable coercion can be tough. For example, is a woman with serious economic needs (e.g., a single mom with children or a woman with a drug habit), limited education and few employment skills being coerced if she elects to work as a stripper? For those who might be tempted to say "yes," how is this any different from the same woman working at a dead end job that she doesn't like and that pays minimum wage? If one involves unacceptable coercion,then both do, from my perspective.

Lots of AMP trafficking in the Chicago area. They have the AMP escort services and the girls don't speak English and rotate all the time. In the club I frequent there are few to no Asians so I don't see it myself.

Authorities always use human trafficking as an excuse to raid strip clubs and AMPs, but it always ends up being bullshit. In fact, they usually end up charging the girls as well.

Here's some more info for anyone who cares.

polarisproject.org

Slick, thanks for the link, but I don't buy those U.S. stats for a second. The powers that be have no idea how prevalent it really is or where it is happening. If they did, they could target those places and do something meaningful. Instead, they use it as a pretext to raid adult entertainment businesses, where they then charge the girls that they were purportedly coming to save.

@Rickdugan I think either you don't live near a big city or you are woefully misinformed. Lots of these Asian girls are not only coerced, but under age as well.

I don't think Uncle Leo busts these places for no reason at all. These days LE is more aware of trafficking and the girls are not arrested unless they are American citizens over 18 years old. Not that I think wasting our tax dollars on arresting them is worthwhile, I don't. But we shouldn't turn a blind eye to sexual slavery either.

rockstar, post a link to a single, solitary FBI raid of a massage parlor or strip club, in the last 5 years or so, that has resulted in an actual human trafficking charge.

Here are a few examples where the FBI used the human trafficking excuse to raid massage parlors, but did not charge a single person with trafficking.

cleveland.com

wptv.com

rutlandherald.com

We also had raids in NYC about a year ago of clubs that were purportedly trafficking Russian girls. Not only did they discover that the Russian girls were in the clubs willingly, but then they went as far as to charge some of the dancers.

ny1.com

Oh I'm not saying LE abuse doesn't exist; I'm just saying trafficking is a legitimate problem.

I have to agree with RickyBoy on this one. When they toss out number like 300,000 victims in the United States many of whom are children then you calculate how many that would be in your own city, there just isn't the demand their for there to be that many. The real number nobody knows. 1/10 what they claim might be beleivable.

rockstar, my point is that there nobody knows how widespread the problem is or isn't, but that it has not been evidenced as an issue in AMPs and strip clubs. Authorities keep busting these places under the bogus pre-text of trafficking, yet walk away with little more than prostitution and immigration charges.

Intuitively this makes sense. Both types of businesses have public profiles and storefronts. How many owners of these places would actually be stupid enough to use slave labor in places where anyone could walk in?

Yet instead of doing anything meaningful in the war against sex trafficking, such as pursuing bonified sex trafficking rings setting up shop in private locations, authorities have recently wasted a shit load of money, time and other resources hitting public adult entertainment venues, all the while waiving the trafficking banner as justification. Just ridiculous.

300,000 seems high; I agree. 30,000 I'd believe.

Again, I don't think it's in SC's. The AMP massage parlors are a whole 'nother universe though.

I'd be willing to say that there is a whole lot more potential for it in massage parlors than strip clubs because the average strip club worker engages with a very broad list of people (managers, bouncers, dj, other dancers, etc that they can go to help. With the amp it is pretty much just the mamasan and they have poor language skills.

Now, as to the question as to whether there is real human traficing in the parlors and not just the potential here is an article for the 'signs' of it.

polarisproject.org

and I must say that for the ones that I have visited I couldn't answer yes or no to almost all of those questions.

inno123....

When you say a dancer has more people they interact with and can help them out of a situation compared to an MP. this is true. But you forget that most trafficked or "pimped" women won't talk at all to get help. They live in fear or they live to make "daddy" happy and money.

Now to get onto the subject.... I think trafficking happens in both worlds. Maybe is more prolific in the AMP or MP situations because like mentioned by inno123 the Pimp or Mammasan has more control over everything than in a stripclub.

Now with the estimates out there about sex trafficking. I think it could be as high as 300,000 or even as low as 30,000. We just don't know because people won't talk who are involved. Also I think the bigger risk is the backpage ads and what not. Those are more trafficked than in strip clubs and AMP's.

But also like others have stated that the media and LE use "sex traffic" as something to brag about or to just curb public outcry. I mean if an AMP opens up in any town now people automaticly think "happy endings". Even if it is a legit place of business. Then you will have a do gooder type try and make waves or think they will need to save these girls....even when it is a legit place. I know in my area two closed down because of this. the women were not trafficked at all. But neighbor hood outcry forced the city to dig into everything and found out not all workers where licensed or had proper training. Some were even here on expired visa's. So the place shut down.

As others have mentioned; it appears more plausible, and prolific; in AMPs – sexual workers one would think are at a higher risk of being exploited (not that most of them are); so a sexual worker that may be illegal in this country; w/o papers; by themselves and not knowing the language/culture; would be much more prone to exploitation.

When I lived in Dallas I saw my fair share of AMPs and visited a few. As others have stated, I noticed the girls there seemed to live in the AMP and looked as if they rarely ventured outside. I recall once in an AMP looking thru an open door into another room and noticing girls lying down on mattresses that were on the floor – it seemed they lived in that room.

w.r.t. SCs; I believe is like others mentioned in that is probably not as prevalent and more likely with foreign women such as Eastern Euros.

w.r.t. pimps – like zipman and others have mentioned; how would one know. It seems that dancers in a club seem to have a better knowledge of which girls have pimps.

Papi: "more likely with foreign women such as Eastern Euros."

Aka "natashas".

Papi: "more likely with foreign women such as Eastern Euros."

Aka "natashas".

One reason that this topic is timely is that politicians in Michigan have introduced a package of anti human trafficking bills. Other states have taken or contemplated similar actions.

As best I can discern, the focus of these bills is to add taxes to strip clubs which will be paid by the customers, to require registration with a fee for adult entertainers, and to increase fines for "johns." The only piece of the legislative package that has any potential for helping victims of human trafficking is the provision of counseling services (rather than prosecution) for victims of human trafficking, especially underage victims.

I continue to be disappointed at the problem solving skills of our politicians. Rather than going after the perpetrators of human trafficking and the monetary incentives for human trafficking (this might require legalizing prostitution!), they go for a money grab from people who are not part of the problem or part of the solution.

I've been to an AMP where I saw a room of beds where the girls lived. I've also been told by a cop that the human trafficking rings rotate the girls between cities and also between waiting tables at Chinese restaurants and working in AMP's. I've also gotten to know a lot of dancers outside of the clubs. I'm positive that the AMP's have a lot of trafficking and that the strip clubs have a lot of dancers supporting deadbeat boyfriends or supporting themselves and their children because the deadbeat fathers of their children split. I don't know about pimps forcing girls to work in strip clubs, I haven't seen that and I think that it's more common for the pimps to be running the girls as escorts than strippers.

I work in heavily Asian areas of Southern California. For the most part, it's easy to tel the legit Asian massage parlors from the AMP. Legit Asian massages usually say hand and foot massage. There are rows of reclining chairs, side by side. There are men and women working together. It's almost likes barbershop. Conversation and tv's blaring.

There are some legit Asian massage parlors where you have private rooms.

Sumtime there be all kind of human traffic when im drivin round greenvill make me want to run dem over!

One thing the foes of human trafficking never mention is the horrific squalor these women lived in before. Not justifying human trafficking, but its not like they are kidnapping middle class, well educated women and selling them. They are simply buying women who have no other option. One illegal I know who is dancing has some true horror stories about rural life in her South American country and told me that if the clubs closed and she was to be sent back home that she'd kill herself in the hopes that at least her kids might be able to stay here and have a better life. Overpopulation is the cause of about 98% of all problems on earth, including this one.

Legalize prostitution and check 'em for illegals. Any provable evidence of abuse and you bust the owners. Human trafficking will never be zero, but you could eliminate a lot.

With that you'd still have upscale nude clubs for dudes that want eye candy, strip club/brothels where chicks do more in the back room, and out-and-out brothels.

But I agree with Mr. Moose...if there is trafficking I don't want to be part of it. You never know, but if you see evidence don't participate.