Dress for Success/Excess

The problem is that you tend to get locked in to a certain area, not only in terms of your job, but by family and friends too. Once you have that support system in place it's hard to give it up. An awful lot of people who pack up and move to FL when they retire wish they hadn't a year or two later. I'd move somewhere warmer too if it weren't for family and friends. But the real problem with small towns is that few of them have decent strip clubs.

I miss winter. The goal is to make sure you don't need to go anywhere when it storms, which I'll grant is tough for most people. Within a few years I hope to be telecommuting more than "going to work" in the traditional manner. If I'm very lucky I'll have re-located before I even retire.

I'd rather live in a small town in VA, or MD than in Western NY or PA. The weather is a definite factor there. The cost of living might be cheaper up north, but I just don't want to experience winter like that anymore. Since I travel for work a great deal, it is more important that I'm near highways than major cities. I wouldn't mind seeing small town living become the norm again, I just don't see it happening in the north at this point.

AN, I agree with you that some small towns are going to see a revival, many already have. But I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon in either northern PA or western NY, their weather is too bad. If I were going to make that drive, I'd probably take I-80 across PA. And if I had to choose between living in a small town or a major city, I'd take the small town. I'm not a fan of big cities. I think a lot of them are becoming dinosaurs. I think a major future social issue will be how much money do we continue to pour into propping up big cities when the only people who live there are the poor. Should be an interesting debate.

FONDL, I enjoy back roads and small towns too, but this drive was something very different. I was on my way to grad school so I didn't have time to dawdle. That souther tier expressway goes past a lot of towns, but you don't see them. I think from about Jamestown to Corning, roughly 5 hours, I maybe saw a dozen other cars on the road. I felt like one of those guys in the end of the world movies where all life is gone but him.

Well, you can buy a house for under $100,000. Actually for $100,000 you can get quite a house. Where I live that won't get you an efficiency condo. I think sooner or later people are going to realize there are some quality of life issues and start re-locating back to these small towns. Computers and the net and cell phones and all the rest (plus cheap airfares) make the metropolitan areas more or less optional for a lot of people. I certainly plan to retire to the area.

I'll second that last comment, since I actually did live there... It's no wonder everyone is moving south from those little western NY towns. There isn't anything there.

Speaking of bad strip-club towns, I hope you didn't bother making a club stop in Binghamton. I actually enjoy long drives through the boonies, it's like going backwards in time. There are a lot of places in northern PA and western NY where you could film a movie about the 1930's and the only change you'd have to make is the cars on the roads. Fun to visit but I sure wouldn't want to live there.

I am hoping to get to Brad's mid-week. I am sure there will still be some residual depression to be assuaged.

The only real bad part of the drive for me was Ohio, but unfortunately, that's about half of it. I am obviously quite familiar with the St. Louis to Indy leg, so that went smoothly. In Indy, I stopped at my #2 club, Dancers Showclub. I told myself I would stay for an hour, which was unrealistic, but only stayed for 1 1/2 hours, of which I was quite proud.

I then made good time through the rest of Indiana, which seemed to fly by. Then I hit OHIO...which went on forever. Spent the night at Columbus, thinking that I had done at least half of the state. But the next morning, it seemed to go on forever. I got so tired of seeing those (roughly) square Ohio state highway signs, I thought I was going to throw up. I think that I will always have good associations with West Virginia, because it meant I had finally gotten out of Ohio...

By the way, I had a hell of time getting out of Pittsburgh. I am spoiled because in the Midwest, when they put the INterstate system in, during the 1950s, there was lots of open land available to build the highways. In the east, the interstates, especially those parts in the urban areas, snake through existing streets, often becoming separated from their partner highway heading the opposite direction. By the time I found my way out of downtown Pittsburgh, I was almost as happy as I had been to leave Ohio.

At 600 miles on Interstate 70, I would say the trip is not easy, but it is simple (I only live five miles off of I-seventy, and Pittsburgh is only about twenty five miles north of it. So almost all the trip was on a single interstate). Of course, I rewarded myself with a stop at Brad's on the way home, and Chandler introduced me to a delightful new young (and very flexible) dancer.

Yeah, what is it with the Colts. Now that the Steelers need them to win to deny the Chargers the wildcard tiebreaker they fold. Hell if they wanted to lose ...

Chitown, I've actually made parts of that drive on many occasions and enjoy it quite a bit, it's an easy drive. I've actually driven from Philly or DC to Des Moines or to St. Louis several times. If you plan it right you can spend the night at Industrial Strip or Brad's or or ...

By the way, I hope you had a chance to stop by Brad's tonight to comfort those poor girls on the Colt's loss.

No, my entire experience in W. Va. was viewed at 70 mph on INterstate 70. That's a drive I'll never make again voluntarily (St. Louis to P'burgh), but if I do find myself out there, I will pay due attention to sc's, as I always do in a new town.

the problem I had on my road trip was that I was headed through Wheeling at 6:00 am on one day, and the next day, I drove through during the afternoon, but was rushing to Favorite Club to meet up with Chandler, who had several hours from his home...a delightful experience, but not compatible with any other stops on the way.

Chitown, have you ever stopped in any of the Wheeling clubs? Wheeling used to have a reputation as a wide-open town but I've never stopped at any of the clubs there.

I wouldn't recommend that you make a special trip to Morgantown, the clubs aren't that good, but if you're in the area anyway you can have some fun. As you might expect, they tend to be fairly seedy little places but some of the girls are nice and the rules are generally ignored. I never eoncountered any college girls though, just locals from up in the hills. Maybe I didn't hit the right place.

FONDL: My entire experience in WVA has been driving along I-70 through Wheeling, about 25 minutes from Ohio to Pennsylvania. Howver, the combination of young women (Univ. of WVA is in Morgantown) and limited financial opportunies (Since this is West Virginia) seems like it should have some promise for good strip clubs.

Shadowcat: Is the club in question PP-Memphis? I'll have to keep that in mind if I ever go there. However, and fortunately for me, the responses from the dancers that you talked to have been the opposite of my experiences.

Chitown, if you ever get back to Pgh do yourself and hit the strip district. It has nothing to do with strippers but it has a lot of great sights to see. Cool clubs, nice resturants, home of the original Primanti Brothers, although they've spread to other locations now. Lots of local color.

Chitown, do you ever get to Morgantown, WV? There's alittle club a couple miles out of town that I always found to be fun. It's poorly run but the girls and lack of rules more than made up for it. It's the only SC where I've ever encountered hot tubs inside the club.

With a generous and grateful attitude toward my local dry cleaners, and by packing at least one duplicate of every item that I absolutely need (suits, but also dress shirts, ties etc.) I am usually on an overnight trip (or, if it is a Chitown treat, I make it an overnight trip), so I am expecting to pack.

I always figure that cufflinks and belts can be counted on to endure (in a pinch, you can use paperclips for cufflinks), but I bring at least another one of everything to guard against spills and other hazards of sc's.

Filly Corral is in Smithton, right at an exit off I-70 next to a gas station in a building that looks like it started life as a restaurant. Nice place. I've never been to any of the McKee's Rock clubs but they get some good reviews.

How do you handle strange odors and stains on your business suit? That concern alone would be enough to get me to change into casual clothes for my SC visits. I always wore something that could be washed by hand in a motel bathroom sink when I traveled.

This was my first trip to P'burgh. I guarantee I will never drive it again, although it wasn't bad to drive one time.

What town is Filly's in? Running the name through the search engine on this site only yielded one club with a similar name, in Winston-Salem, NC.

I don't intentionally put on a suit to go to strip clubs. The nature of my business is that I wear a suit for work at least five days a week, often six. I would also have to admit that I like to wear a suit, so I'm not as quick as some people would be to change out of a suit that I am already wearing. However, when I think back to the times when I have not worn a suit to a sc, it has seemed to work against me. However, the only back-to-back comparison that I have for a single club is Bonita Flats, about thirty miles west of KS. It is a run-down little roadhouse with beautiful midwestern girls, who give great lapdances (unfortunately, out in the open...no private rooms..it has never seemed to bother the girls, though). On two trips within three days, I got drastically better treatment when I wore a suit. Since it doesn't bother me, and I have the suit on anyway, I'm certainly not going to go out of my way to dress casually for sc visits. The funny thing about the Bonita Flats experience was that I was probably the only guy to have worn a suit in the place in six months. Maybe that's why it helped....Like I said above, a good thing about wearing a tie is it gives a willing dancer an excuse to start playing around with your chest and the areas around it. And I probably will always keep the tie that became panties for three hours one evening at Dancers Showclub in Indy.

I've heard of a good P'burgh area club in McKees Rock that I was thinking of going to. But I was running on fumes, 2-4 hours of sleep a night for three nights running, and that just didn't seem prudent on that trip. Maybe the next time I'm in P'burgh.

I really like the Gothic architecture downtown. And, although the Convention Center is a pretty generic 90s convention center (I've probably been in twenty just like it), they've made it incredibly easy to get to from the interstate. I ate at a very good restaurant in Mt. Washington, Isabella's on Grandview.

Chitown, I didn't know that you made it as far east as Pittsburgh. Have you ever visited Filly Corral Showbar? It's a Brad's-like place right on route 70 south of Pittsburgh. I haven't been there in several years but loved it when I was there. It's not open every night so check ahead, but definately worth the effort, a real gem, one of my all-time-favorite clubs - low prices, friendly, low hustle, high contact, lots of pretty girls. No need to wear a suit but for you it sounds like it helps. Now that I think about it, I don't think I've ever worn either a suit or a tie in a strip club, and I've done pretty well just by being polite. Different strokes for different folks.

It occurred to me that last month I had an experience that typifies my comments in the post that started this thread. On a Thursday night, on my way to Pittsburgh, I stopped at Dancers Showclub in Indy, a "gentlemen's club" type of place. As befits someone who is going to be driving all night, I was wearing Dockers-like khakis and a polo shirt. I got relatively little attention. Two days later, driving back from P'burgh, I was wearing a suit (I think I had shed the tie somewhere in eastern Ohio) when I stopped in at Brad's, which is more laid back. I had all the attention I wanted. Admittedly, there are some differences. I hadn't been to Dancers in two years, so no one knew me, whereas I get to Brad's once every month or six weeks, so on any given shift, at least two or three dancers will know me. And, I was swimming against the stream, being casual at an upscale club, and dressed up in a tavern. But the overall experience seems to support the hypothesis that, at least for me, dressing up is the path to sc success.

ArtCollege: Here in "flyover country" in the Midwest, we were the last to embrace "business casual", and the first to shed it. A lot of my colleagues, including me, never embraced it in the first place (consistent with my sartorial past: in my 8th grade graduation picture, from 1976, I am one of only three boys not wearing a leisure suit. Like Castro, history has judged me. Unlike Castro, history has vindicated me). So, a lot of places in the Midwest, particularly in law firms, wearing the traditional suit and tie does not mean that you are working for the Man--it means that you are the Man."

I've done Erie to New Haven CT. That is real long. The southern tier of NY is some of the loneliest driving I ever did.

It's actually a very beautiful drive if you do it on the diagonal - 322 through State College. I've also done NYC to Buffalo, that's even longer.

FONDL, I'd say that more than counts since you can't go much further norty and west than Erie or east and south than Philly. I'm guessing 8ish hours for that little jaunt.

AN, I've driven from Philly to Erie and back, does that count? It's almost worth it for a visit to Partners Tavern.

If you think Ohio goes on forever, you've obviously never driven from Jacksonville to Key West. Did you know that the PA Trunpike is the oldest superhighway and the oldest part of the Interstate system in the land, and that the part around Pittsburgh was built first, in the 1930's? That's why it's so narrow and crooked.

There are a bunch of strip clubs along I-70 south of Pittsburgh. A dancer in one of them once told me that she wouldn't work in one of the others (Sherrie's?) because all the girls there gave BJ's. I never checked to see if it was true.

If you think Ohio goes on forever try driving PA from West to east. I used to do it on a semi-regular basis. A friend from California who drove east for grad school said the part of his trip that seemed most interminable was the drive through PA. Probably because it was so close to the end of the trip and he just didn't expect those eastern states to be so large. I also remember a drive through Ohio that seemed to go on forever. I think that was because it was so flat. The longest drive in my life however was from Houston to San Antonio. It wasn't long timewise or distance wise. It felt long because once I got outside Houston and on I-10 I don't think I moved the steering wheel for three hours

Most of us play more than one role in our lives. It sounds to me like you go to strip clubs for essentially the same reason I used to go, so that I could be the real me for awhile, and not have to play any role. I used to find it pretty painful switching from the weekend me to the workday me. The best part of retirement is that I don't have to do that anymore.

I'm afraid that I've been successfully domesticated by the tailors. I really do feel more businsess-like when I am wearing the usual uniform. Some mornings I really don't feel like going into work, but when I get "suited up", it seems to put me in a frame of mind to get to work.

Sick, isn't it?

Art, I agree, it's the point I tried to make earlier when I said the a suit to me feels like a work uniform and doesn't feel very dressy. And thanks to TV, the whole country now dresses left-coast casual. For years my mom made me tuck in the tails on my dress shirt and now I don't have to, I can go Hollywood instead. And personally I'm more concerned about lipstick on pants than on shirt, it's much harder to explain.

Back to the topic, of how dress affects a SC visit: keep in mind Chi lawyer that "dressed up" is different on west coast. Nice slacks and sport shirt means I can dress as I like; a suit says "I'm working for the man and I don't have any choice."

One issue that concerns me is smoke. Hate to get a suit smokey. (Yes, sometimes I work for the man.) Also have had lipstick on a dress shirt. Real problem for a married guy.

Sounds like Congressional. My local club has gotten lax too - the rules still require all white on the tennis court but it doesn't seem to be enforced anymore - as long as the shirt has a collar, colors seem to be OK. I once made the mistake of not having my polo shirt tucked in on the golf course and was reprimanded, very politely of course.

There is a country club around here I know of that has gone very lax. They actually allow gentlemen to remove both coat and tie while on the golf course (shirtsleeves and long pants still required of course). There was a minor scandal over allowing gentlemen to wear shorts on the tennis courts (white of course) about a decade ago.

I was reminded today that there still is one place that maintains a fairly strict dress code - your local country club. Maybe that's one reason why people pay bigs bucks to join, it's an attempt to recapture some of that old-time style. I actually think there is a bit of a reaction against very casual dress among some younger people today. My kids and their friends dress better than many older people do for casual occasions. I wear jeans much more frequently than does my son.

I'm not saying they wouldn't have smelled, just that the smells wouldn't be considered out of the ordinary given what most towns probably smelled like.

In the photos I'm referring to, both adult men and young men not only wore suits and ties in the summer, most of them also had on vests. And they were usually black and probably wool. Must have been fun in Annapolis' 100 degree temps with 95% humidity. But I'm sure they smelled fine since they probably got to take a bathe every week. And probably only owned one suit each. Hope they stayed near the horses.

I'm sitting here in my office looking at a framed picture on the wall of a 1917 Chitown family reunion. Judging by the growth in the fields behind them, it is late summer or early fall. The men are all in coats and ties. The boys dispense with the coats, but all are wearing ties. The woena are all in long sleeves. They don't have the high collars they might have worn twenty years earlier, but nobody is going to be thinking any impure thoughts about them, the way they are dressed.

I ofter look at the photograph and think to myself, "How the hell do you think THOSE people smelled?"

FONDL, certainly people were a lot more formal, and having a picnic downtown or going to any public place were seen as occasions for dressing up. There are plenty of pictures in the family archives of people in shirtsleeves at family get togethers (having dispensed with the coat due to the heat). Chitown, don't forget that most people traveled by horse still (yes, even in 1917). Most well to do houses and every moderately sized town had stables. Do you think the horses wore diapers on the streets? I doubt you would have noticed the smell of the people in most cases. One reason I don't long to go that far back.

AN, there's a hotel in downtown Annapolis whose lobby is decorated with a marvelous collection of historical phtographs of the town. Many of the photos include candid views of people having picnics etc. In the earliest pictures the children are always in coats and ties, even in the middle of the summer, and these are not posed photos. Needless to say the adults are all dressed up too.

Chitown, I sympathize with your mother. It's not just dress either. When I was a child, adults ruled, kids were supposed to be seen and not heard, and you did whatever the adults wanted to do - taking the kids somewhere that they wanted to go was a rare special treat. Now it seems like it's the exact opposite. For example, years ago kids never went to nice restaurants in the evenings, that was an adult activity and the kids stayed home with a baby sitter. Now you can't go out to dinner without a bunch of kids yelling and screaming at the next table, no matter how late you go. Which is a major reason why I always sit in smoking sections in restaurants even though I don't smoke, there are usually fewer kids there. Thankfully the restaurants in my area all still have smoking sections.

My mother is 63, and graduated from high school in 1960. She complains that when she was a teenager in the 50s, teenagers were expected to dress like adults, and when she became an adult, in the 60s, adults were expected to dress like teenagers.

I think she suffered from being whipsawed between two big demographic groups, especially the group younger than her.

FONDL, don't forget that a century ago nobody would have posed for a photograph without being dressed to the nines since photographs represented something very special back then. Sorry, feeling a bit argumentitive today for some reason, but I know what you are saying as a general point. In colleges at the turn of the century men were expected to dress for dinner. This meant suit and tie at a minimum, and often meant tails (evening dress) depending on the occasion. In my mother's day at college (the 1940's) men wore sports coats and ties to class as freshmen, and suits to class by the time they were seniors. I think the rejection of fashion in the '60's as some sort of statement of rebellion or anti-borgois (sp?) authenticty was what really accelerated the trend.

As a friend of mine likes to say, you're only young once but you can be immature forever. I agree with AN that the boomers accelerated the trend toward casualness but it started long before they came along. If you look at photos of people taken a century ago, everyone including children is dressed to the nines as they used to say. I think movies and TV have had a lot to do with current fashions or lack thereof, but the trend toward casual dress has been going on for at least a century. Some businesses have done a great job of capitalizing on it too, not only the obvious jeans manufacturers but causal restaurant chains like Outback and others.

Shadow, I'd guess you are on your second childhood. I guess I'll give you a pass, beneficent as I am.

I think that the decline of the "uniform" has lead to some interesting social changes. It used to be people wanted to be grownups, and that once they reached a certain age they gave up dressing like a kid. Dads didn't wear jeans, even on weekends. Chinos were work pants for adults. Dads wore slacks and shirts, not jeans and t-shirts. I wonder if the current sartorial trends have more to do with the boomers refusal to grow up than some social egaletarianism or comfort.

Chitown, I used to enjoy dressing up but like everyone else got out of the habit. I agree that there will always be businesses that require face time and dressing up will be part of it, but there are getting to be fewer and fewer such occupations and I think that will continue.

There are two other concessions to dress that I've always made. First, all my shirts have button-down collars. Not only do I like the look, but I have a very short neck and a stiff collar is not only very uncomfortable for me, it doesn't sit right on my collar bones. The button-down looks much better on me. And as a result I never wear cufflinks even though I think they look cool, but button-downs never come with French cuffs. In addition, I always found that cufflinks got in the way when using a pen or pencil (remember pencils?) Second, I always wear loafers, I haven't owned a pair of shoes that had laces in over 20 years (except for boat shoes and sneakers, which is what I usually wear anyway.) Loafers are just more comfortable.

Chitown, if you're looking for something to short, try shopping malls and department stores. In a decade there will be empty malls everywhere. The only people who will still go to malls are teenagers. It's almost like that now in a lot of places.

Yeah, but Chitown, doesn't that sound fun?

FONDL, I agree with you demographic predictions, not so sure about your sartorial projections. If I had a lot of money to invest, I would go short on office buildings, long on housing in inner ring suburbs and small towns (20,000-40,000). People are not going to commute as much, if at all, unless their jobs actually require their physical presence. A lot of the higher income service jobs are like mine--they require concentrated periods of "face time", such as court appearances, meeting with clients and associates, etc., but most of the work is solitary. In fact, most court appearances could be done by conference call/teleconference. (Frankly, a lot could be eliminated altogether, but condos and BMWs need to be paid for...) I have a brother in law who works for a Big 4 accounting firm in a midlevel management position, and he shares an office...for which he must sign up for space ten days in advance, because two other guys also use it (he was bitching about the "clean desk policy" that this requires). I think that people will want to live in small towns because of proximity to services. It's nice to think of being Ted Turner on your ranch in Idaho, but if you have a kid who needs to be at YMCA basketball 3 times a week, those wide open distances will get on your nerves.

Think of the jobs that will likely go down the tubes...mass transit, as has been mentioned, but also newstands/tobacco stores that predominate in almost all big office buildings, midlevel and fast food restaurants that serve a downtown lunch crowd. MY experience when I worked in Chicago was that a lot of the downtown retail catered to the people who worked downtown, because precious few people lived downtown, and people from the suburbs didn't have to come into town for decent shopping. So, downtown retail will probably take a big hit, too.

I don't think ties are going anywhere. They offer a chance for a little fashion and individuality in men's clothing, which otherwise doesn't change much (with the exception of attached collars, how much has the standard men's business suit/uniform changed over the last 100 years?) I was in junior high school during the horrid "leisure suit" phase of the mid 70s, and even 1985's pink paisley ties were an improvement.

T"hat is why we should all meet at some club in suits, ties, white long sleeved shirts with french cuffs and hats to mark the passing of the uniform of manhood."

What kind of reception do you think that would get us? I have a feeling that within a hour, a lot of strippers would be wearing hats and ties, in various ways...and I might be asking, "Destiny, where did that other cufflink go?"

FONDL, as far as the flight from the cities, I've seen it with my brother's friends in California. Housing prices have gone so high that the $300,000 fixeruppers they bought 8 or 9 years ago are now selling for over a million. Many have decided that netting about $700,000+ on the sale of a house and moving to a small midwestern town (or even a big one) where you can buy a palacial house for $250,000 leaves a nice nest egg even with a reduced salary. Most are professionals who are self employed ( or self employable like doctors, lawyers and accountants) but a few have been plumbers and electricians who decided that they could start their own buisness with that kind of cash.

As for the suit, I think there will be compensating factors. I'm going back to my grandfather's era again, but it used to be that wash was done once a week at most and was a major undertaking. Now my sister probably does a load a day with her kids constantly changing clothes. Suits used to be lifetime acquisitions, whereas now they are no more than a slightly more expensive kind of clothes, as disposable as any other. As we have more technology and conviences we seem to do things in a far more wasteful manner so that in the end, there really isn't so much more time in the day then our grandparents had. This works for goods too. When was the last time you repaired a TV? So many things have essentially become disposable goods that the manufacturers can count on the consumer simply replacing the ones they have if anything goes wrong. I know I don't bother with the warranties anymore. Clothes will probably go the same way. Suits are already becoming simply another product line rather than a unique item for most clothing manufacturers. Overseas production also makes them cheaper. You are right though that the uniform is dying. That is why we should all meet at some club in suits, ties, white long sleeved shirts with french cuffs and hats to mark the passing of the uniform of manhood.

AN, I think that a lot of small towns are already making a comeback. A lot of big cities will continue to lose population and need more and more help. It'll be interesting to see how long people from suburban and rural areas are willing to prop up obsolete cities. It'll also be interesting to see if commuting declines to such an extent that traffic diminishes and public transportation systems go banrupt. I think both things are inevitable, the only uncertainty is when. I think 50 years from now our great-grandchildren will be shocked to hear that we used to get in our cars every morning and drive to an office or train station to get to work, they won't be able to imagine such a thing. I also think business travel will decline because it's so expensive. There are going to be a lot of bankrupt business hotels - shopping malls too. The clothing industry will be especially hard hit, in fact that is already happening. Which is why they frantically keep coming out with silly new fashions that everyone is ignoring. I bet sales of men's suits and white shirts aren't half what they used to be. It used to be that when you went to a nice restaurant almost all the men were in suits and ties, now almost no one is.

Chitown, cooling with alcohol has a lot more merit than the accidental imbibing. Alcohol evaporates very rapidly and would do a great deal to cool the skin. Now, as to why he used gin as opposed to say rubbing alcohol...

FONDL, I must confess I've never seen you wear a hat every day. I also think you are right, the daily trip to the office will decline as more people use computers and telecommute. I also think that phenomenon will start to bring back some of the dying small towns as people realize there is cheap housing to be had and that as long as you have a high speed connection you can work almost anywhere.

I've alway liked those guayanabo shirts that even lawyers wear in Hawaii, except to court. Alas, I doubt they will ever make much of a splash in the Midwest

I think that within a generation or two neckties will disappear. As will going to the office every day. Or maybe even having an office to go to. When I started working I used to wear a hat every day. When's the last time you saw that?

I agree, buisness dress is a lot more casual and varied than it used to be, but the fact that you would not wear a short sleeved shirt and tie with a suit to a wedding should illustrate my point. Short sleeved shirts are accepted as buisness dress in some areas, but they are not suitable for occasions calling for proper attire. Personally I can often get away with jeans at work, and I wear suits about once or twice a year.

AN, I once worked for a senior executive in a major corporation who always wore a short-sleeved shirt and a tie, even in winter. Call it anything you like, I could care less, but to him it was a dress shirt. I also knew the president of an environmental non-profit group that promoted energy efficiency who always wore long-sleeved shirts all summer long and kept the A/C set at about 65 degrees so that he'd be comfortable. Does that make sense to you? My rule is if it's cool enough that I'm probably going to keep my jacket on I'll usually wear long sleeves too, but if it's warm enough that I won't be wearing the jacket I'll usually wear short sleeves. The exception is a very dressy occasion like a wedding or fancy restaurant - if I'm going to wear a coat and tie I almost always wear long sleeves in those kind of instances. Incidently many years ago I worked for a large chemical company which among other things made dyestuffs for the textile industry. It was a big no-no to wear a white shirt, everyone wore colored shirts. I still do most of the time. As I said before, it all depends where you are, there are no hard and fast rules about dress.

To the top!

FONDL, the fact that short sleeves are more comfortable does not change the fact that we are wimps, and short sleeved shirts are casual, not dress.

AN, all our grandfathers wore long-sleeved shirts. They also did a whole bunch of other stuff that we'd never do. If you want to hang onto the past, be my guest. I prefer comfort over some silly rule from the past.

When my grndfather was a kid he walked 12 miles to school each day, up hill both ways with holes in his shoes....who cares? You want to dress for success in a strip club? Bring a fat wallet.

FONDL, short sleeves are fine, just don't call it a dress shirt. My grandfather wore a suit tie and long sleeve shirt to work all summer, before air conditioning. We are just wimps.

On the theory of "for the cost of renting it three times, you can buy it," I broke down and bought a tux. That was about eight years ago, and it seemed like immediately afterward, I found I was going to a lot of functions were that was appropriate.

I have to disagree with a couple of comments on dress. Speaking of short sleeves, it depends on where you are and what you are doing. If it's a hundred degrees out and you're somewhere where air condioning isn't an option such as outdoors or in a manufacturing plant, a short sleeved white shirt makes a lot more sense than a long sleeved one. I suppose it would be nice if we all spent the entire summer in air conditioning but many of us don't, nor do I want to. Wearing less in hot weather makes just as much sense as wearing more when it's cold. In most parts of the country the only people who wear a long-sleeved white shirt and a suit in the summer are lawyers, bankers, stock brokers, and people who sell men's clothing. Since I am none of those I wear short sleeves in the summer.

Secondly, when I was mentioning clip-on ties I was referring to bow ties worn with a tux - a lot of guys foolishly wear a clip-on in that situation because they never learned how to tie a bow tie. But I guess if you're going to wear a rented suit, shirt and shoes you've already blown it so you might as well go for the clip-on too. Perosnally I never wear rented clothing except maybe a Holloween costume. To me renting a tux is a lot more of a faux pas than wearing a short-sleeved shirt in the summer.

I believe in dressing for the occasion. If it's hot, wear less. If the situation calls for a tux, go buy one, it won't kill you. At many discount stores you can buy a tux for the price of renting it twice.

Short sleeve dress shirt is an oxymoron. I never wear suits anymore, but I still remember all my rules. Clip-ons are for 12 year old boys. One little known sartorial rule, never wear button down collars with a suit. A button down oxford is a casual sport shirt and can be worn with a sport coat, but not a suit.

There are some additional advantages to business dress. About three months ago, while I was at #2 Club, a dancer took off my tie and made it into a pair of panties, which she wore over her g-string for the rest of the night. Whenever I know that I am going to have a challenging day at work, I wear that tie. In the clinches, I can look down and get a quick grin of mirthful nostalgia.

Some dancers can't keep their hands off of a tie, and wearing one gives them an easy entree to more contact. Almost every time that a dancer has taken off my tie, the shirt has gotten unbuttoned. It's almost as though, once they get their hands on your chest, they look for ways to keep the fingers busy.

I don't understand the sploog problem with wearing a suit, as discussed in a post above. Dry cleaners have to eat, too. If you happen to practice law in small town in which you are well-known (just to create a vastly improbable hypothetical), even the smallest adjacent town will have a dry cleaners.

I agree with all the sartorial standards set out by my colleague above. Frankly, I'm not sure you could buy a clip-on anymore, even if you wanted to (at least I hope this is the case...). I would also add short sleeved dress shirts to the forbidden clothing items, if only because they deprive you of the opportunity to wear cuff links.

Hell, if I were getting 62 lap dances, I'd stop and buy special pants and leave my jeans in a dumpster.

The one time, in a hurry, I broke the cardinal rule against jeans, I had one of my best nights ever of getting great lap dances. Whenever I read posts about wearing particular clothes to get lap dances, I think of that quotation: "Distrust any enterprise that requires special clothing."

I guess we all have a different definition of what "casual" means. I actually feel more dressy in a nice sports coat than I do in a suit. For years I had to wear suits to work, and as a result I think of a suit as a work uniform. And while I know it's in style in some circles, never wear a suit without a tie, it makes you look like a dork. Lossen the tie if you like, but leave it on. (One of my many pet peeves.) And that's especilly true if you're wearing a tux - loosen the bow tie and leave it around your neck ala Frank Sinatra (obviously you would never wear a clip-on, another pet peeve.) OK, sometimes I'm a snob, I admit it. But if you're going to wear a tux, act like you know how.

Moving to the other end of the social spectrum, I also make exceptions to the "no jeans" rule. While I agree with it most of the time, I know a lot of local titty bar type places in industrial areas or out in the boonies where everybody wears jeans. So I do too if I'm visiting such a place. Such places can often be a lot of fun. And they're the most fun if you blend in.

I always go wearing casual clothes and I get more attention than I want in every club I go to. I think a guy in a suit will definitely attract attention as girls will often think he has money to spend. Funny, since I had to waer a suit for the lowest paying job I've ever had in my life and never could afford to buy LD's back then.

I agree with CT's comment that, if you feel comfortable you will look comfortable to others no matter what you are wearing.

I wear comfortable clothes-including docker type shorts in season, I make sure I'm bathed, brush my teeth and wear just enough cologne to keep my fav's noses nuzzled against my neck. All of this, combined with a friendly attitude and an open wallet works well for me.

Back in the 'suit days' in Silicon Valley, I wore a suit to MBOT and got a surprise hj (didn't ask...but a dancer wanted to showcase her skills). The suit was a mess. For a while it looked like a free $2500 lapdance. That cured me of wearing expensive suits to clubs. I don't wear jeans though. I'll say that Armani got me more attention than Dockers. But in the end, they want the cash. The clothing is just an early indicator for the girls. I don't think they care as long as you're clean and you spend.

I almost always go straight from work in work clothes, which is pretty casual. If I'm traveling I usually do chinos and an oxford shirt, the uniform of bland yuppiism. My only "rule" is no jeans to a LD club.

FONDL, you raise a good point. As I stated in a recent thread, I have never found a "get lost" line that I am comfortable with, so the better approach would be to avoid undue attention in the first place. The worst thing that can happen in the sc experience is when you are trying to get rid of a less-than-desirable dancer and the one that you have been waiting for all night suddenly becomes available.

I much prefer being invisible to being hounded to death. When I'm in a club I usually sit at the bar and try to look like I'm not interested in any company. If I spot a girl who interests me I'll ask her to join me. I hate it when a girl approaches me.

Sometimes I have to wonder if I dress to blend in a little too much. I like wearing black and dark muted colors for camouflage from bouncers, but strippers and waitresses can act like I'm invisible, too.

I think how you dress, assuming of course that you are comfortable with it, has a lot to do with how people treat you anywhere. For example, I've often noticed that if I'm wearing a suit and tie in a department store I will almost always get more attention from the sales people than if I'm dressed in jeans. Same is true going into a new car showroom. I don't think strip clubs are any different. Although I do believe this is changing since so many successful people dress like bums today and causal dress has become the norm in many businesses and industries.

I prefer not to be approached in strip clubs (or anywhere else for that matter), I prefer to do the approaching. So I usually try to dress the way I expect most everyone else will be dressed in a particular club. I'll dress differently if I'm going to a neighborhood titty bar in a factory district than I will if I'm going to a GC downtown. I don't like to stand out so I often dress down.

I remember being better dressed than many at one club and it seemed like every dancer was trying to get a dance from me multiple times throughout the night. Of course I had one dancer tell me that I am unique and I'm not ever going to be able to just hide in a crowd without the dancers finding me and trying to get dances. I took that as a compliment. Of course many of the other people at the one club looked to be either college age and not buying dances or couples who weren't too interested either.

This issue reminds me another thread from about two months ago on "the strangest question a stripper ever asked you." On advice of a high school girlfriend, I started wearing French cuffs about twentyfive years ago, and that's how all my shirts are cut. Once, while I was preparing for a VIP, I started taking out my cufflinks (I am told they can scratch). The dancer looked at me, took a cufflink, and said, "What is this?" She had never heard of/seen cufflinks. I still don't know what to make of that experience, but I did think it was kind of weird.

Early on in my sc days, I was concerned about being overdressed, and had some paranoid concerns. However, like so many things in life, I think that the comfort level that others have with you is based on your comfort level with yourself. Since a suit is my outfit 5-6 days a week, I'm perfectly comfortable in it (also, I have my business clothes tailored in a way to be comfortable).

While on the road, I have gone is some pretty rough places in a business suit, and never have never caught shit from anyone, much less other patrons. I used to wonder if people would think I was LE, but it took me about a half second to realize that no one would expect LE to look so obvious (now THAT is a great disguise). Favorite Club isn't what I would call a rough place, but it is casual. However, Chandler, twenty minutes before you and I ran into each other last week, I was sitting next to (at separate tables), a guy in full-out leathers, and we were talking like old friends about the relative merits of the girls on stage. Like I say, if you are comfortable with yourself, others will be, too.

You can carry things too far...I wouldn't wear a WW2 feltdmarschall cap with totenkopf insignia to a NAACP meeting (of couse, I wouldn't wear such a cap anywhere...)

Dancers might equate better dress with better likelihood of the customer having money to spend on them.

Recently, before going to the Flight Club for the first time in years, I'd heard that they were enforcing a dress code. So, I wore some better casual clothes than my usual baggy black khakis and T-shirt. It turned out there was no apparent dress code. I don't think it helped or hurt, but I felt cramped during the dances.

When I wear a suit for work or some occasion and then head to a bar, I'm okay with it only if that's how most everybody else there is dressed. If I were to do that at a strip club, even a gents' club, and even if I had just come from some place where a suit was required, I wouldn't feel comfortable. Your being an actual lawyer, Chitown, makes all the difference in your comfort. Being an actual big spender helps, too. I think strippers can tell when guys wear suits for effect, so I believe it only works if you're comfortable and you're prepared to back it up with the big bucks.

I used to wear botton down short sleeve shirts with a tie all the time at work before the dress code loosened up. Being confined to a wheelchair, keeping long sleeves clean is a huge chore, so I wear short sleeves as much as possible.

Chitown, there's noplace for your cufflinks on those shirts. Besides, those are worn untucked and are very cool so you can't wear suspenders and shirt sleeves and sweat like Spencer Tracy in "Inherit the Wind".

Which means I'd have no excuse to constantly cool down with gin-soaked sponges, the way that WJ Bryan did in real life (and if a little of the gin happens to be used internally, I suppose that can't be helped...)