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Latest nice guy news - once again missing the point

Sunday, June 22, 2008 5:45 PM
Dating Secret Exposed: Why Nice Guys Finish Last By April Masini Special to Yahoo! Personals Updated: Jun 20, 2008 Are you a nice guy who has always wondered why the cocky guy -- the one who barely appears interested in the girl -- is usually the one who gets the girl? Have you suffered from hearing the words, "You're a really nice guy, but I only like you as a friend," from a woman who you would do (or may, in fact, have already done) just about anything and everything for -- only to turn around and watch her date (or even chase) a guy who treats her like she's nothing special? And are you stumped wondering why she would date a guy who treats her like that when she could have you who would treat her like a princess and give her everything she wants? Well, you better brace yourself because I'm going to tell you a couple of secrets that you might not want to hear. First, "nice" equates with boring and predictable. Look up "nice" in the dictionary and you find: pleasant; agreeable; satisfactory. In other words, average -- not exceptional, not exciting, and not sexy.I'll bet you've never heard a woman say she didn't want to date a guy because he was too confident, too passionate, or too exciting -- have you? But, I'll bet you have heard women say things like, "He's such a nice guy. He's so sweet and he's always there for me, but I only like him as a friend." Or, "He's such a good guy -- kind, thoughtful, generous, honest, loyal -- but there's no chemistry. He just doesn't turn me on." Sadly, I hear it all the time. The fact is, Mr. Nice Guy, you cannot bore a woman into feeling attracted to you or into wanting to date you. And as obvious as that sounds, if you are one of those guys I described that is exactly what you are trying to do. And it won't work. Please understand that I am not suggesting that you mistreat women or disrespect them in any way. What I suggesting is that you value and respect yourself more. What I suggesting is that you value and respect yourself more. To illustrate what I mean: The answer to the question, "Why does the guy who doesn't appear to care as much about the girl get the girl?" is simple: The nice guy cares too much, too soon. He has made the woman too important and too valuable and it shows in everything he says and does. He is too available, too eager to please, too accommodating, and he gives too much -- all without getting anything in return. By doing so, he has made himself appear desperate, insecure, needy of this woman's attention, affection, and approval -- and he has stripped himself of any value in her eyes. After all, if he's already doing and giving everything, without her doing or giving anything - why would she value him? She won't. She is not going to value him any more than he values himself. What she is going to do is look for someone else, someone who she perceives as being more worthy, more confident, and more valuable. It works like this: Once you need something, or you want it too badly, you forfeit your strength and lose all power of negotiation. Once you need something, or you want it too badly, you forfeit your strength and lose all power of negotiation. You are in a position of weakness and you are perceived as weak. Someone (or something) else is in control of you, the situation, and it's outcome. Men in this situation appear to be anything but confident, strong, and exciting. More, they are perceived as being unworthy and as lacking value. Translation: Things that are easily acquired, obtained, or maintained, without any effort or sacrifice, lack value... it's human nature. The secret to why the cocky guy wins with women, over the nice guy, is that he is perceived as being a stronger, more confident guy with more value. How? He never invests everything -- his entire being, ego, and self-worth in what one woman's response or reaction to him is. He doesn't gush with compliments; he isn't always available; he doesn't give too much; and he knows he isn't going to die if a woman says "no" to him. More, his attitude is, yeah, I'd like to go out with you, but if I can't, that's OK -- I'm a busy guy, with exciting things going on, and lots of other options. [view link]

24 comments

  • David9999
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    16 years ago
    I like this line "The nice guy cares too much, too soon. He has made the woman too important" Oh so I suppose if the "nice guy" waits a certain period - then everything is fine and the big "chemistry" happens. Each female can reveal the secret waiting period that will induce all the magic. Gee the horror of it all, making a woman "important". This entire article (the latest in a series over the years from 'relationship experts' invariably consisting of convoluted and twisted explanations on the nice guy debate) is simply more of the same nonsense and provides even more proof that there are definitely evolutionary connections to all of this. We're animals and affected by animalistic instincts, some formed millions of years ago -its not that complicated.
  • snowtime
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    16 years ago
    Sad to say but I think the article is right on point although I had never looked at dating this way before. The analogy to negotiating is especially accurate. You really do put yourself in a position of weekness when you are giving up everything first. Unfortunately many of the guys on this board (myself included) probably spend a lot of time in strip clubs because the catch is so easy. Solely a function of how much money you have in your pocket. At my age it seems like a fair tradeoff and one that I am willing to accept.
  • David9999
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    16 years ago
    The article in effect spins the "nice guy" definition to prove the point. The article is nonsense because it makes the standard presumption that the nice guy issue can be defined simply as an issue of nonconfident, wussy, marshmellow, pushover, doormat type males who ass-kiss women. This is a standard approach and has been used for many years by those trying to explain the issue. Yes, its true such marshmellow/wusses are also "nice guys" but they are a small subset of nice guys. Nice guys under any fair objective analysis are simply sincere, non-controlling, honest, monogamous, and non-controlling males. Yes, they generally respect women but they usually don't instantly worship the ground a women walks on because the women pays attention to them.
  • casualguy
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    16 years ago
    Am I accidently making dancers like me more when I get them upset at me or I seem to appear a bit ticked off at them? They do find out that I didn't just fall off the turnip truck.
  • imnumnutz
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    16 years ago
    you got cash? The more you got, the better looking girl you can land. It's as simple as that! Strippers tend to like bad boys. you packin'? got drugs? been to jail? Congratulations, you're gettin' laid!
  • FONDL
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    16 years ago
    David, your last post is right on. You don't have to be a wuss to be a nice guy. A nice guy whith confidence will do very well with women. Personally I think self-confidence is the key, not whether or not you fit someone's difinition of a nice guy. Unless the woman is a total loser, in which case who cares?
  • Book Guy
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    16 years ago
    I agree with the little bit of the article which suggests that women dis- like wimpy men. But I disagree with its expla- nations of why. And I REALLY disagree with any prescription for change that's inherent in it. And I REALLY REALLY REALLY disagree with the ultra- long link that screwed up this page's formatting.
  • David9999
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    16 years ago
    True, and the real problem is its an article that's really about why women are turned off by wimpy nice men and yet pretends to be about the (often discussed) mainstream issue of the "why women are turned off by nice guy" - yet claims to have some special new insight - when if offers none.
  • David9999
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    16 years ago
    "Nice guys" with or w/o confidence - are generally (IMHO) perceived in a bio-chemical sense by females as evolutionary dead-ends, all of this operating at the genetic subconscious level. Fondl, a few decades back I pretty much (by accident) tested out whether a confident (and monogamous, sincere, non-controlling) "nice guy" could really sustain the interest of hot women. Yes, you'll get plenty of dates, but holding onto them is another matter. Yes, at some point (as even I found out) an "I don't give a flying fuc.k" attitude helps, but that's getting close to a nonmongomous attitude anyways. I would argue that the (confident too) nonmonogamous rogue is contantly sending out the signal at the genetic perception level of offering the exciting promise of genetic immortality. Once again this is all perception and has nothing do with reality, but what matters to genes it what they "believe" not what IS, and there is little doubt that all this female "chemistry" is tied into early primordial periods(99.999% of man's existence on earth) when in fact Alpha seed spreaders were able IN FACT to offer genetic survival advantages for the famales. It would be great if social scientists could run a series of (all things otherwise equal) tests of confident nice guys matched against the confident rogues with various attractive women - the nice guys would w/o any doubt would get slaughtered in terms of pushing the "chemistry" up. The problem with such a test of course is that it could never merely depend upon what women SAID they liked (nearly all women claim and and actually believe they like "nice guys") - instead it would have to depend upon what they reponded to in a substantive way, thus there are some very serious ethical issues about tricking women into falling "in love" and most likely having sex with a man who is actually part of an experiment.
  • BobbyI
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    16 years ago
    What the fuck is this bullshit? Nice guys with confidence have no trouble getting hot (or whatever kind they want) girlfriends. You really can't think of a single counter example to that?
  • David9999
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    16 years ago
    The "nice guy" issue has discussed for decades and its a real issue for many males, and to claim that its all really just about a lack of confidence - well that is absurd. If the issue were really that simple, it would be 100% resolved today, and few would even have the need to discuss it.
  • BobbyI
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    16 years ago
    Yes, it's been discussed forever and resolved. Nice guys with confidence can get hot or whatever kind of chicks they want. If you actually open your eyes and look around you you will see tons of examples of that. Show me any confident guy who has trouble getting chicks. Not going to happen.
  • David9999
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    16 years ago
    I guess it was resolved what last week? or last month? The "nice guy" issue has never been resolved. You're reading too much bullshi.t from so-called "relationships experts" on Yahoo or AOL or somewhere else. Note as additional proof the fact that the Yahoo author herself was claiming to be offering some NEW insight. Why would it be new if the issue were already resolved? Confidence as an added factor will not overcome the LACK of (what I refer to as) "negative" Alpha traits such as deception, nonmonogamy, a generalized disrespect toward females, controlling behavior, or in some cases a predisposition toward violence - all by the way critical for long term genetic survival success in evolutionary terms
  • BobbyI
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    16 years ago
    She said it was a "new insight" either because she is dumb and really thought it was a new insight. (Hey, people rediscover the wheel all the time, and I bet "dating advice" writers didn't exactly pass up being nuclear professor to take that job instead.) If you are really cynical, and like conspiracy theories, she knew it was old news but wanted to get readers. Again, all you have to do is look around you to see nice confident guys getting chicks no problem. And you'll also never see an example of a confident guy, nice or not, who isn't able to score chicks. If you can't see what everyone else can then I wonder what planet you are living on? Is it the same as the rest of us? Maybe your theory that confidence isn't enough applies on Mars or to other species, but down here on earth amongst humans it's really all that is required. As for when it was resolved. Who knows? Long before I started asking questions to the right people (about two years ago). But let me ask the board this: Is there anyone beyond David who thinks or has ever seen nice, but confident guys having a problem scoring chicks? If there is some kind of disagreement between theory and observation, then the theory is in need of some fixing.
  • FONDL
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    16 years ago
    Again I'll disagree with the premise, that how often you "score" with a girl is the true measure of how well you do with women. Mybe that's how bad boys measure their success, but in my opinion that's a very immature way of looking at it. I doubt if most nice guys figure it that way. Which is maybe why they don't "score" as often, it's not their primary objective.
  • BobbyI
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    16 years ago
    By "scoring" I merely meant achieving his goals. I agree that body count is not the correct metric. Nor is hotness of chicks. OTOH, there ARE nice guy who like to wrack up high body counts, and I don't think that negates any of their niceness.
  • njscfan
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    16 years ago
    Bobby Of course you are correct that "nice guys" (another elastic phrase that will mean different things to different people) can have no difficulty in attracting women. The evidence of that is all around us. As for your reference to "body count" I am not sure why you brought that up, but in any event, I agree each guy gets to measure his success by his own standards.
  • BobbyI
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    16 years ago
    It's just some slang we use around here to make fun of guys who think that high number of women sleep with makes them "cool". It's an allusion to the Vietnam War when "body count" was being used as ineffectual measure of progress in the war. Perhaps, a little sick "humor" on our part, but we are bad for that.
  • njscfan
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    16 years ago
    I understood what the phrase meant. I just wasn't sure why you brought it up.
  • BobbyI
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    16 years ago
    B/c of FONDL's post.
  • njscfan
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    16 years ago
    Oh, this explains it. I have him on ignore.
  • David9999
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    16 years ago
    The "nice guy" definition is hardly elastic, there are certain consistent attributes that show up. As it concerns the most typical situation where women end up conflicted between what they SAY they want vs what they actually respond to and develop the all important "chemistry" for, the "nice guy" definition used by most women seems to fit a definite pattern, with such factors as faithfulness, sincerity, honesty, an overall respectful attitude toward women in general and them in particular, and other factors such as non-controlling behavior. In the (irrelvant side issue) case of wuss/doormat/ass-kisser type men, there is no conflict because women are not going around telling surveyors they want such men, so their distaste for such men presents no such conflict.
  • Book Guy
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    16 years ago
    I can't read this thread. The long link ruins the formatting for me.
  • MisterGuy
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    16 years ago
    "sending out the signal at the genetic perception level" LOL...yea, this is science alright...science fiction that is. Your genes can't "perceive" anything! "Is there anyone beyond David who thinks or has ever seen nice, but confident guys having a problem scoring chicks?" Is the anyone on here that doesn't think that Davyboy is constatntly just talking out of his ass??
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