How Long & How Often To Get to ATF Status.

The term ATF as used on this site is meaningless. Guys use it to refer to dancers they see alot in the club, but never outside the club, and whom they never fuck; dancers they (falsely) think they have a "relationship" with (because they have lunch or dinner with them); and dancers they fuck. To use one term to describe several completely different situations is foolish. We would all be better off not using the term ATF at all, and instead just accurately describing what is happening in plain, factual terms.

But a lot of guys here don't want to do that. Why? Because they want to obfuscate the reality of what is happening between them and the dancers -- which is largely "nothing". If they were honest (and especially, if they were honest with themselves), the guys would admit that with a lot of the dancers they never get any sex; they pay for a lot of dances that are "high contact" (which is a eupehmism for getting their cocks rubbed through their pants, or at best, a handjob); and while they would jump at the chance to fuck one of these girls, it often never happens.

I think a lot of guys use this term as a pseudo-expression to refer to some dancer they wish was their "girlfriend," but they know they can't really call her their girlfriend because they are paying her money (and she really thinks of him as her customer). I think the guys do this because they don't have girlfriends or wives in real life, and they use strippers as substitute girlfriends. (How many guys on this site are married and/or have a live in girlfriend? I bet it's a minority. And of the single guys, how many are getting laid even once a week? Again, I bet it's a minority. There's something wrong here.)

Personally, I think it's pathetic. If you cannot get a girlfriend in real life, you should not try to use sex workers as substitutes for girlfriends. And if a sex worker isn't your girlfriend, then you shouldn't fudge the issue by calling her your ATF.

There are stippers I regularly see in the clubs; there are strippers I have only seen a few times, but we've fucked in the club; and there is currently a stripper I fuck on a regular basis. But none of them are "girlfriends" and none of them are ATFs. They are strippers I pay for sex, and I am one of their customers. That's all. I don't kid myself into thinking there is more to the "relationship," and I don't want more, because I already have a wife, and don't want a girlfriend. And I don't want an ATF either.

Why are you convinced that you are the only one on this board that is fucking strippers? Do you beleive that you are so superior that no one can match your deeds?

Remember the song "Who's making love to your old lady while you are out making love?" If your marrage is a great as you say, you need to be concerned.

Don't put words in my mouth. I will speak for myself. I never said I was the only one on the board fucking strippers. I said a lot of guys on the board use the term "ATF" to obfuscate what is going on, which is usually nothing more than a handjob in the club. That's painfully evident from the posts about people wearing silk shorts and going "commando" to the club. But if people want to clarify what is really going on, they can stop using BS terms like "ATF" which mean nothing.

As for your comments about my marriage, obviously, you are speaking from ignorance, so your comments cannot be taken seriously. However, I am continually amazed by how judgmental some (not all) of the guys on this site are about sleeping around. Somehow it's ok to go to a tittie bar and pay girls to grind on your lap, but it's immoral to sleep around? Seems pretty hypocritical to me.

this is a pretty negative thread. I have to point out that there are likely a lot of diferent situations and views. atf's can be a lot of fun, a no gamble source of sex, fun and some companionship with no strings attached. Girlfriends are far more work. I for one was lucky to find a really good one and we now have an exclusive otc relationship with all the trimmings. That's probably unusual and lucky but hey, it worked.

Please, please! Save us the Dr. Phil psychobabble njscfan...it's always the same nonsense with you...you really not educating anyone here, and then YOU complain about people on here being "judgmental"...give me a break! If someone wants to use the term ATF, let them. Don't be a hypocrite...sheesh...

Sheesh, thread has turned into "my horse is taller than your horse" contest. Post #2 is 1 I'd select to put in dictionary under "superiority complex" , "judgementalism", "presumptiousness", or "holier than thou" attitudes. nj-fan, until you can download your "golden wedding band award" from happilymarriedmenofamerica.com into tuscl blog, I still see posters on equal height horses, and I still smell horseshit and hear shattering glass when I read your posts.

Minnow, to answer your original quesions, when she was dancing I visited my ATF once a week for about a year. I don't know when I started to consider her my ATF but it probably wasn't until she quit dancing - it came about gradually as we became friends. That was 10 years ago and we're still close friends.

Holy shit! I can't believe I have to agree with MisterGuy about something!

ATF = all time favorite

There are no bars "relationship" wise or sex wise in the definition. The term just means "favorite".

People are going to have different criteria for a girl to become a favorite. For some, the girl's gonna have to fuck him. For others not fuck him, but call him on the phone to babble once in a while. Some could care less about "relationship"ness and are just looking for hot NSA sex. Some will also, as you say, want surogate girlfriends. So will want blondes, so brunettes, some not care. But it doesn't matter. We will still have our favorites.

So please don't tell us what we can and cannot talk about. (And I am must say I am rather surprised that you are being so shallow here, given your good insights on other topics.)

I can spot ATFs on my first vist. At most 10 minutes of talking to them, although it's usually even quicker than that.

The last two posts were pretty incoherent, aside from being filled with invective, it's hard to see the point of either comment.

You can insult me (or my marriage) all you want. It doesn't phase me, because you've never met me or my wife.

Neither poster deals with the point I made: "ATF" is a meaningless term, which is used on this site to refer to anything from a dancer someone sees in the club, to a fuck buddy, and everything in between. Neither post deals with the further point, that the "ATF" label is used to obfuscate the reality of what is happening (or not happening) in the patron's dealings with the stripper. And, last but not least, neither post deals with the underlying issue, which in my view is that some patrons use stripclubs as substitutes for real relationships with the opposite sex.

The fact that (some) people howl loudly when those points are made tells me a nerve has been struck. You can deny all you want that there are PLs on this site looking for a girlfriend (oh, I mean an "ATF") in the strip club, but your denials won't change reality.

I know the "ATF" concept is a sacred cow on this site. Some sacred cows deserve to be attacked. This is one of them.

Sorry, by the "last two posts" I was not referring to Bobby, but to Misterguy and Minnow. Bobby and I were writing at the same time.

Njscf is correct. There is no such thing as an ATF. You are just a regular customer. She will maintain contact with you to keep you coming in and buying dances on a regular basis until you decide to move on.

"incoherent" Mr Know-it-all?? Let me make this simple for you then, apparently more than a few of us are sick & tired of you dropping your pearls of "wisdom" (AKA shit) from on high as if you are the end-all-be-all of everything. We also don't need you to slay "sacred cows" either...God, get over yourself!

"that the 'ATF' label is used to obfuscate the reality of what is happening (or not happening) in the patron's dealings with the stripper."

Are you a mind reader now like that idiot clubber?? I don't think so njscfan...we don't have to live by your rules, you hypocrite.

I don't happen to have an ATF, but if someone else wants to use the term (however it means to them or how it is defined on this site)...leave them alone about it! Who gives a flying fuck if the term means nothing to you, then don't use it.

njscfan, your ridiculous commentary makes me embarassed to say I am a Jersey native. ATF means one thing. All Time Favorite dancer. My personal ATF was just that. She was my favorite dancer ever. Just like Dr. J was my ATF NBA player, and pizza is my ATF food. Nothing more nothing less. The only time I ever saw her outside the club was by accident at a local movie theater. The closest I ever got to sex with her was a lap dance that was considered high mileage by ATL standards, but would be considered rather tame in more liberated strip club locales. We did trade cell phone numbers and we did try to get together for lunch a couple of times. We had alot in common and spent almost as much time talking about life and kids as we did doing dances. She was happy to see me and I was happy to see her, no matter frequent or infrequent that may have been. Your commentary makes no sense.

MisterGuy: thanks for your calm, deliberate observations. Always helpful to hear from an intelligent, mature individual like you.

ShotDisc: I'll try to ignore your personal insults as well. Even your own post shows ATF is a term of such elasticity as to be meaningless. Which is why, by the way, notwithstanding your post, there are many guys on this site who claim to have had more than one ATF. (Sort of defeats your definition, doesn't it?) I would suggest to you, respectfully, that when a term becomes that meaningless, it should be retired. By the way, with your ATF, when was the last time you saw her? Did you ever see her outside the club at all? If not, could you explain to me why you believe you had a relationship more meaningful with her than I have, say, with my dental hygenist (with whom I always have deep and meaningful conversations every time I get my teeth cleaned). SuperDude's brutally honest assessment seems a lot closer to the truth in my humble opinion. Maybe your ATF was happy to see you because you were a source of cash -- which would explain why she never saw you under any other circumstances. Sorry if that hurts. By the way, you never felt a close personal bond with Dr. J did you?

Off topic a little bit, but back in my mongering days I would switch my so-called ATF often, sometimes out of boredom sometimes just to keep them guessing. One ATf i had for a while freaked out when I started getting dances from another dancer in the club. If you let these girls think your putty to them then that's how they will treat you. Always remember, you call the shots financially and have power too. Use that power wisely. Just my 2cents.

I don't know if I fully believe in the term "ATF", but I do agree there are some dancers I like seeing more than others, and there are also dancers who I like for one reason and others I like for a completely different reason. But the ones who have been high on my list of favorites, I liked most of them right away and it didn't take very long for most of them to get high on my list of favorites.

My ATF retired a number of years ago. As for being a source of cash you are wrong because on more than one occasion she spent time with me even when I confessed upfront to being broke, rather than working the other guys in the club for dances. She was a person, not just a stripper. If you have that with your dental hygenist fantastic. Have you ever seen her nude? ATF is just that. Your all time favorite anything. Julie from 24K just happens to be my all time favorite dancer. In over 20+ years as a strip club customer, she is the top. Sorry you have a hard time understanding that.

ATF status has nothing to do with with whether the dancer actually truly likes me. It is how I feel about her due to the services she performs.

Now, if the dancer actually has to like you for there to be an ATF that isn't out of the question for even old and ugly customers. Gambling dancer still calls and comes over to say hi or shoot the breeze or to use my computer (she doesn't really need to use my computer, btw), but she won't sell dances or other services. She'll give them away, but that is a negative situation to get into, imo, with her or any other woman. Paying is a lot cheaper.

For those men who want "free" more power to you. I think it is far better to pay. Unfortunately, it seems like some dancers when they start caring about you refuse to accept money.

Many years ago an ATF who I'd only known a couple of weeks came over to my home. I'd promised her that it wouldn't be for sex; just dances. Well, she was so reluctant that I didn't understand why she was making so a big deal out of nothing. After finally getting her into my bedroom she declares that I better have condoms or I really am not getting any. She was stunned that I was honest about just wanting dances claiming NO guy is honest about that.

This dancer is only an ATF in the sense that there was some type of "chemical" explosions where I was just seeing stars she was so good. She was that much better for me than any other woman. Everything seemed fantastic afterwards and I was looking forward to a long term paid relationship with a dancer who could literally make me see stars. Next time I see her in the club it is all bad. :( She announces that she isn't going to sell me dances anymore and that she wants to date for real. I explained the age difference and that I was a horrible boyfriend and etc., but she held her position and finally asked me to leave and not come back.

Never knew the term ATF meant all this bullshit. I have my favorite dancers. They are the ones I spend my money on. Nothing more or less. Just the ones whose company I enjoy.

Some of you act like your ATF's are special or important. I don't get it. You are customers to them, nothing more.

parodyman: on point as usual

ShotDisc: Your naivete is almost touching. She "spent time" with you (meaning sat and talked with you) because you were a regular customer, she was still dancing, and she had a reasonable hope that you would continue to come to the club and spend money in the future. Had she refused to talk to you, she would have risked burning that bridge, and losing a customer. It is not any different than when someone gives a free consult. Had you persisted in failing to buy dances, she would have eventually stopped talking to you.

Now I made a specific factual claim, but what's the evidence for what I am saying? Well, for one, you notice she never gave you dances for free when you were broke, she just sat and talked. Why? Because giving you a free dance would have defeated the whole purpose, and "the whole purpose" is to make money, in this case by keeping you interested and getting you to keep visiting the club. Of course, some dancers will give away freebies to attract or keep customers, but only so long as they can continue to reasonably hope that the customer will be a source of business. If she really liked you as more than an acceptable customer, she would not have flinched at giving you free dances all the time. (Which is why I don't see my dental hygenist naked. It's not her job. But it is the stripper's job to get naked. But she's doing it solely as a job, not something else.)

Second, as soon as she "retired" from dancing (or left her club in any event), she had nothing to do with you. If she was really your "friend" in any sense of the word, you would have had some kind of relationship with her that went beyond her job. You didn't. You never saw her outside her job; you probably never even knew her address; I bet you never even knew her real name. Could you call her up on the phone today and expect her to know who you are? I'm betting your odds of doing that are about as good as your odds of calling up your ATF Dr. J.

(BTW, sometimes dancers will see their customers outside the club, meet them for lunch, hang out with them, etc., etc. But again, that's just customer relations, no different than when I take a vendor out to lunch or dinner. Those kind of "grease the wheel" social events are very common in the business world.)

It's no reflection on you, of course, that she just dropped off the radar. It happens to everyone. That's why we've had several posts on this site -- even by the strongest proponents of the concept of the ATF -- by guys who are shocked, just shocked when their so-called ATF just disappeared and left no forwarding address. How could she do that? To me! We had lunch! I took her out for dinner! We even had sex! She was my ATF! Well, maybe, but to her you were just a customer in the club, and as soon as she was done dancing, she never gave another thought to it.

Of course your special ATF Julie (if that was her real name) was and is a person. I'm a person too, and just like Julie did to you, I schmooz my customers, because it's good for business. But they are still customers, not friends, even though I might like them and find them to be tolerable company. Sorry if you have a hard time understanding that.

"Now I made a specific factual claim, but what's the evidence for what I am saying? Well, for one, you notice she never gave you dances for free when you were broke, she just sat and talked. Why? Because giving you a free dance would have defeated the whole purpose, and "the whole purpose" is to make money, in this case by keeping you interested and getting you to keep visiting the club."

I've gotten "free" dances when going to the club without sufficient funds. It is usually just good customer service. I've had ATFs who refused to do paid dances--defeats my reason for going to the club. Gambling dancer made the idiotic statement that NO dancer will refuse to sell me dances because the dancer likes me---it was idiotic because she is exhibit "A." When I pointed that out to her she does a bunch of confused double talk complaining among other things that I treat her like a friend and that if I would act like a customer then she would treat me like a customer.

Again, I don't see where ATF liking you are disliking you or not giving an F about you makes a bit of difference to whether she is an ATF. Also, as far as ATF, I may apply that to one dancer because she does a great job and happens to have extreme intelligence. Another, might be an ATF just for one particular club. Still, another might be an ATF because not only does she do an excellent job, but she will give people the shirt off her back. When it comes to an ATF who can make me see stars there is one clear winner that is far ahead of any women. I almost regret not trying to bend about my rule about keeping it paid, but I believe that would have been a real a mess. She cut me off and told me she didn't want to see me again. I saw her about six months later at a different club and tried to patch things up--didn't work and just made her more upset. If she would have used her brain instead of going by feelings, then she wouldn't of given me the time of day except for the $$$.

Finally, yes there are norms and I think overwhelmingly dancers don't consider customers as friends, however, the one-size-fits-all mentality is more than a little grating; it's idiotic in the extreme. It is like when a man or woman tells me that I have to feel X, Y, or Z and can't feel A, B, or C. It is absurd and brain-dead. It is like saying all men have to be attracted to women or a man can't be attracted to a Walmart Blubber Blob of a woman.

Now, if a person is speaking about general rules then yes it can make a lot of sense. I don't even know why it would be important for a dancer to see a person as more than a customer as long as the customer is happy. Now, I need and look for the GFE----that can just be a dancer doing an excellent acting job and that is fine and dandy, imo.

Correction:

Again, I don't see where ATF liking you or disliking you or not giving an F about you makes a bit of difference as to whether she is an ATF.

Take my word: You won't want to be friends (in a real sense) with them, anyway. They are crazy, and mostly drug addicts. The sex they have to offer is much better than any friendship you could receive from them.

In fact, be grateful that the money keeps them from becoming friends with you.

Of all the dancers I've ever met, one stnds out clearly as having been the most fun, and given the choice I'd rather spend time with her than any other. Seems to me "ATF" is an appropriate term for such a dancer. Why does anyone have a problem understanding that? I don't get it.

I don't get it either. Even for the guys who are delluded and think "the stripper really likes me", it still doesn't change the fact that they have their favorites of all time.

I think the posts here are just a long winded variation of the oft-repeated and rather trivial observation: "Hey, dummy! The strippers doesn't REALLY like you. She just wants your money."

I think part of the issue is that if a word or phrase has multiple meanings, then that somehow VOIDS the word entirely. Also, for some reason some posters have added reciprocity to the definition.

I think Bobbyl hit the nail on the head. It isn't about whether a customer can have an ATF or multiple ATFs. It is the worn-out one-size-fits-all notion that all strippers: 1) Don't REALLY like you and 2) She just wants your money. Sorry, this stereotyping is totally boring and brain-dead if it is applied to all dancers. Besides even if somehow all dancers marched in lock step on those two ideas does it make a bit of difference? I suppose to many customers it might.

Bobbyl, I agree. I've said many times here before that I don't even believe that dancers think in those terms any more than your waitress at a restaurant does. Sure there might be a few jerks or super hot guys who stand out, but for the most part we're all just customers. And what's wrong with that? I don't care what a dancer thinks of me, chances are she doesn't think of me at all. The only thing that's relevant to me is how she treats me. And my ATF treated me better (and by that I mean she treated me the way I wanted to be treated) than any other dancer who I had a chance to get to know ever has. Which is why she's my ATF.

I don't go to a strip club looking for any sort of personal relationship, not do I go looking for sex. I just want to have fun. And she was the more fun to be with than any other dancer I've ever spent significant time with. That's my definition of an ATF.

I accept your surrender njscfan...I'd expect nothing less from another hypocrite like you. Keep looking down your nose at people on here & spewing your own version of Dr. Phil-like psychobabble...it'll keep winning you many, many friends...you idiot...

Thanks, MisterGuy. I love you, too. Have a nice weekend.

I just noticed that the glossary is gone, so there is no official definition of ATF to be found. So I guess that the definition is up to each individual. I don't have a problem understanding what a poster means when he uses ATF. So whats the beef?

I have had two and am working on number three. StripShopper today met the new candidate. I think that he was impressed.

ShotDisc, what I can't understand is why you would go to a club with no money. Do you think the other people (employees and customers) want to watch you nurse a beer and cry about how broke you are? Do you think these people are your friends and are there to console you in your time of financial crisis? Wake the fuck up.

ATF: Always There to Fuck

The glossary went nowhere...it's now an "article":

tuscl.com

I would think an "All Time Favorite" would be a "once-in-a-lifetime" person. I think CF = "Current Favorite" is really what we are talking about.

That's pretty much the point. ATF is something of an idiom, not meant to make literal sense. It's intentionally hyperbolic, making fun of the poster's own tendency for serial infatuation. Similar to "Greatest evah!", meaning since last week. NJscfan actually has more than he realizes in common with the poor earnest souls he scolds in that they both expect the term to be taken seriously.

Can;t we have it both ways? Can't the term mean different things to different people? Seems to me that Shadowcat and i use it in entirely different ways. And I have no problem with that. Maybe if I'd never met my ATF I'd use it differently too.

Points of rebuttal.

Julie McCullough was her real name. Her stage name was Jules

I knew where she lived.

I knew all the details of her family situation and she knew mine.

I had her phone number.

Not every trip to her club was for dances.

She chose to spend time with me even when I did not have sufficient funds for dances. I often suggested she make the rounds of the club rather than sit with me, and she chose not to. She spent as much time with me as she did with the guys who were buying her gifts and envelopes full of cash.

She told me she was planning on retiring before she did. She just didn't say when. According to others at her club, she just up and left one day and didn't say good bye to anyone. She just never came back.

ShotDisc: That is the way Carter did it to me but I got over it.

ATF is a term of convenience. But why get so philosophical about it. If you've got a favorite dancer you spend money on, tip rail or VIP, on a repeat basis, that's OK. If you're fucking somebody, then I think you have a stripper "friend" or to be even more formal about it, a stripper "girlfriend," depending on what else you do together. ATF used to be an innocent term, now it's invested with all this potential complication. Better to get back to simplicity.

GK, I agree. It has nothing necessarily to do with sex or high contact - I've probably had higher contact from 50+ dancers than I ever had with my ATF. So what? She was the most fun to be with. And I ended up liking her as a person more than any other. For me that's more than enough to rate the term. If I went into a club containing every dancer I ever met and liked, I'd head straight for her. Hey maybe that's what Heaven is like - a big strip club in the sky full of all your favorite dancers.