Becoming Too Attached To ATF?

"Show me the MONEY."

I might be able to offer some thoughts that could possibly be of some help, but I'd have to ask a few questions...

1. I can probably already guess the answer to this, but are you hoping at this point that you might have a chance at going from a customer/dancer relationship to something more than that?

2. If the answer to #1 is "yes", does it seem like you and your dancer's respective life circumstances could potentially allow that to happen?

3. If the answer to #1 AND #2 are both "yes", do you think you could be happy with just enjoying a great dancer/customer relationship, if it turns out that she has no interest in #1?

In my years of going to clubs, I've had a whopping TWO dancers that clearly developed actual feelings for me, beyond me just being their ATF customer. The two circumstances were a bit different, and one is really hard for me to talk about. But in both situations that I experienced, it was tough for me to imagine that a "real" relationship could have ever worked out. Both of those girls were 20 to 25 years younger than me when I met them, and both were ridiculously attractive. And by ridiculously attractive, I mean basically flawless, with awesome personalities to match. So...it wasn't too hard for me to keep some perspective about what the realistic upside for those relationships were, in those particular situations...

Having said all of that, your life circumstances may be very different to mine. You could be younger than me, better looking than me, or who knows how many differences there may be? And, of course, none of us reading your story have any way of knowing exactly how the dancer in your life feels about you? We can speculate about what may or may not be likely based on our own experiences, but at the end of the day, we're still speculating...

@ClubFan81077 Thanks for the reply.

1. The question of wanting something more with her is something I would try not to think about. I am not sure if it was a defense mechanism in my brain to not think about this question or what. However, if she asked me out on a date tomorrow I know I would say yes. So i guess the answer is yes, I would want something more but I have kind of accepted that it is probably highly unlikely to happen.

2. I am a single 37 year old with no kids and a decent job. All I know about her is she is 27, so ten years younger. She has mentioned she is single and hasn't had a boyfriend for a few years but I don't know how much of that is part of her stripper lines. While she isn't the hottest one in the club, she is definitely more attractive than the type of girls I usually pull outside of the club. Most would probably say she is "out of my league" physically. I sort of doubt she has any interest in me being anything more than maybe her favorite customer. This is because I feel like if she had any interest beyond that she would be texting me more on her days off as girls do when they have interest in someone. She used to do this more often but recently it has stopped, so I highly doubt its is anything more at this point.

3. This brings the ultimate question: can I be happy with just a dancer/customer relationship. I guess the answer to that is "I don't know". If you asked me this a month ago I would have said "almost certainly", but here I am making this post, longing for her to text me and counting the hours until she works again and I can go see her, so that doesn't seem like a good sign.

In the original post I posed the question of if I should just keep enjoying the ITC experiences while they last or to cut her off due to myself wanting more, but the more lay it out the ultimate question just becomes: can my feelings handle being nothing more than a customer?

That's what I need to answer soon.

@HandFull

Ok, that helps me understand things a little bit better...

The key thing I noticed from your last post is this: "longing for her to text me and counting the hours until she works again".

Is it a fair assumption to say that you don't really have any doubts that you would like to try dating her? By that I mean, are ALL of your doubts/concerns mainly related to fear of rejection, rather than any concerns about who she is as a person, or your potential compatibility with her?

A 10 year age gap doesn't seem like that much in the grand scheme of things. That doesn't necessarily mean things will work out, but just that the age gap itself might not be a big issue. Of course, a more realistic opportunity for success could also mean a more realistic opportunity for a broken heart, so, yeah, no one is going to pretend that the latter wouldn't suck... :(

On the one hand, you've already said that "it is probably highly unlikely to happen", so you at least recognize that most customer/dancer relationships are unlikely to turn into something more. On the other hand, it sounds like in spite of that recognition, at least a part of you has already gone down the path of wanting more anyway?

By the way, did you ever get any indication that when she was texting you more often, that she might have become frustrated that you didn't ask about seeing her OTC in some way? I'm not suggesting that was in any way the case, but just wondering if you already considered that as a possibility? Without knowing your exact relationship with her, as only you and her could know, I'm not suggesting that you should or shouldn't have done something differently. Just trying to help you think about your scenario, really...

Things obviously can get tricky for any of us if the heart kind of "barges in" and overrides the brain. Sure, the brain may know that something is unlikely to work out, but the heart sometimes still wants something anyway. I may be really good at "fire-walling" my club relationships, but I've certainly experienced scenarios similar to yours in my past, outside of clubs. So I can very much relate to how you're feeling, and I'm hoping things go well for you...

I would say that the majority of my doubts/concerns are mainly related to fear of rejection. No real concerns with compatibility with her, although its too early to tell as I have only interacted with her in the club and a little texting.

In spite of my brain recognition of dance/customer relationships rarely turning into something more, I definitely think I am at the point of wanting more.

As far as the texting, I don't think she was looking for OTC. I feel like the time we have spent together talking about a ton of activities we both enjoy, there would have been some point where OTC would be hinted at. My theory is she was texting me a lot as she saw me as a potential fun, non-creepy regular that she would rather have as a customer than some other PLs. I think she knows she has me pretty hooked now. Probably doesn't feel the need to maintain the texting relationship as closely. She still texts, just often times its inconsistent. It will be in bursts and then there would be days between replies.

Pills no chasers, this rick is going to be helpful rickvice.

First off, I’ll start with a quick note asking you to stay clear of the pills. Neither hairless ape nor lion does well with too many pills. You want some chemical enhancement of your evening? Try some Jack. Want a chaser? More Jack.

Trust me, you’ll enjoy yourself more with a glass of Jack in your hand than if you take any pills. If you need something more refreshing go for an Arnold Palmer. I make mine rickstyle, by adding Jack. And I leave out the damn tea and lemonade. Who wants that shit in their Jack?

Anyhoo, I digress… Back to the topic at hand. What you need to do is get in touch with your inner lion. No matter what kind of creature you are, your inner lion will know what you really want. So stand in front of a mirror, reflect on your life problem, and let loose with a mighty ROAR!!! If an answer doesn’t come to you immediately, have a drink. Jack Daniels has inspired many of my most brilliant thoughts. It is likely to be helpful to you as well.

Ultimately, your inner lion will show you what to do. Indeed, the stripper will probably fall in love with you if you show her your inner lion. If this rickvice doesn’t work, your inner lion isn’t sufficiently lion-y. Or you need more Jack.

Hope this brilliant rickvice helps. ROAR!!!

I've had multiple dancers in my past that either dumped the club, or wanted to dump the club to hang out with me instead. But whether a particular dancer sees a decent guy as just a great ITC regular or a great OTC regular, oftentimes the "friendly" texting is just her way of building the business relationship, and it doesn't necessarily mean anything more... But sometimes a dancer will actually truly enjoy talking to or spending time with a customer, so that can also happen...

How do you think you want to handle your situation, at least at the moment?

Don't believe her when she says she doesn't have a boyfriend. That is the standard stripper lie.

If I were you I would go for it. By which I mean go for OTC fun and dating stripper fun. But don't be scammed into thinking she really loves you. Don't be played into giving her all your money. Above all, don't marry a stripper. I've had several wild rides with strippers that included romantic involvement. I'm glad I had those experiences but I don't know that I want to do it again.

@ClubFan

I would love to try and go for some OTC. If she is not down for that, do you think it would ruin anything we have ITC? Approaching OTC is new to me, I should probably read up on here.

@jackslash

Maybe she does have a boyfriend. Who knows? Honestly, if I found out she did, it might make things clearer for me. Then I could either be content with ITC experiences and nothing else, or just move onto other dancers if the bf ruined the experience for me.

Sounds like a good approach that I will try to adopt. Just need to shake the feelings for this one.

Go to other clubs and bang 5 other girls. She will soon fade from your memory. Many of us have gotten our feel-feels involved with strippers, and it has rarely ended well.

Even if she DOES end up in a normal relationship with you, ask yourself if you are okay with her grinding (or more) with other guys while she is at work. I bet the answer is 'no'. Unless you are able to exclusively provide an amount equal to what she earns from dancing (which could quite possibly be more than you earn), she will not (and should not) quit her job. I imagine her other job prospects pay far less than dancing, or at least provide less flexibility.

It seems that you have some good ITC experiences with her. To the extent that you can stay unemotional, enjoy those experiences. Also cut off phone/text contact, as that will help remove the emotional element.

@HandFull

Again, only you and her are truly qualified to give an informed opinion on the relationship that the two of you have now. I can only make some guesses based on what you've told me...

So, if it were me in this situation, based on what you described, would I personally hesitate to ask about OTC? No, not personally, but then again, I might have already asked her about that months ago... :) But meeting a girl OTC for dinner, dances, making out, whatever... it isn't new to me... but I can't say how she will react if and when YOU ask her...

There's several different ways you could try to approach this depending on 1) whether or not you still want to see if she's interested in a conventional relationship, or 2) if you just want to take things as they are now, but move that OTC, or 3) if you're wanting OTC, and also hoping your OTC experience will be different than your ITC experience in some way? It's really hard for me to advise you on exactly how to proceed, so I guess my real answer is that only you can decide on how best to approach this! I wish I could give you a more definitive answer, but I rely so heavily on my face to face interaction with a girl to determine the best course of action...

OP, you have the same problem as me. You think too much.

I remain baffled by people's actions, but have learned most people don't think things through. Especially pretty girls. They are in the position of having opportunities flow to them, and they just live in the moment.

So I suspect your girl here hasn't really considered where she wants this relationship to go. The reason she is so good at intimacy is, in that moment, she really is your significant other. Then she wakes up and wanders off into the next encounter. She remembers you when she sees you again? That's great, but probably not as profound as it feels.

Bottom line is I believe you are trying to make rational decisions in the fog of emotions. And she remains unburdened by any thought process. Doesn't mean she is stupid. Just means she doesn't have to trouble herself with mental work.

She will probably continue to "fuck around" with you, until it becomes inconvenient. So I guess I am saying "enjoy the ride" but anticipate it is going to end some day. What doesn't end some day?

Just ask her out on a real date. Ask her to go with you to a nice restaurant, the movies, a concert, ballgame, whatever, and see what she says. If she declines saying she's busy, or has some excuse, but she won't tell you no, ask her again the following week. She'll either accept eventually or string you along endlessly.

When I say ask her on a date, I mean you go somewhere and do something, you pay for both of you, and you don't pay her for spending time with you. A date where you're trying to build an actual relationship.

Short answer: Yes, you are becoming too attached to your ATF. Just enjoy the ride.

Slightly longer answer: You are one of several PLs with whom she maintains contact to varying levels, some of whom are as equally "intimate." However, that doesn't mean your interactions don't have a degree of authenticity. She probably does like you, within the context of your SC connection. You're a decent and interesting PL with whom she enjoys spending compensated time, compared with many other loser PLs in her sphere. That's authentic and to be appreciated.

Enjoy your connection with her while it lasts. It's rare and special for what it is. And if going for OTC, that shouldn't be a problem. Let her tell you whether it works for her. She's an adult and if not good, will still allow for your ITC connection to go on us before.

And while it's not my thing, if you think it'll help clarify your thoughts, stand naked in front of a full-length mirror and roar like a lion... 😏

I’ll be honest with you: I tossed her salad last night and didn’t mention you once.

It’s easy to do but generally not a good idea. If she does want to date it’s more likely to have a sugar baby dynamic which is ok but you should understand that from the beginning. It might be possible to date her but honestly the better adjusted strippers don’t try to date customers and compartmentalize.

In clubs I’ve found it can be good to have a favorite but I’d see other girls as well for fun from time to time. Getting too attached to a particular dancer has some downside and make sure in the end of the day it’s a fun relationship. If your thoughts turn into worrying about her problems too much then you’ve gotten into murky waters

If the OP is the time who goes to Burger King for fine dining, then by all means find the love of your life in a strip club. I am 100% sure you're an open wallet to her.

Converting an ITC relationship is a long shot, but considering how you feel about this girl, might be worth taking the chance. I’ve you were to ask her something along the lines of “would you ever want to meet up with me outside the club?” You will get your answer. She will respond with one of 3 likely answers 1) “sorry, I don’t do that”, 2) she’ll quote you her rates, or 3) “like on a real date?” Followed by “sorry, I don’t date customers”, or “I really like you but I have a boyfriend, or SO.

Highly unlikely, but she might say “sure, that sounds like fun”. Then you’ll be faced with the challenge of setting up a time, place, etc. with someone who’s probably highly uncommittal and unreliable. Be prepared for rejection and heartbreak anywhere along this scenario, but think of it as if you’re playing with house money since the worst case scenario is the status quo, which is something you like.

Only once in my life have I tried to convert an ITC relationship to a civilian relationship. I asked my ATF out and she said yes. We met for lunch since her civilian job was close to my office. But despite her hotness and the perceived passion of our ITC relationship, we really didn’t vibe in the real world. She was kind of dumb and not interesting sitting there in civilian clothes when I wasn’t grabbing her tits or sticking my tongue down her throat. I’m sure she thought the same of me. This was also the end of our ITC romance. So be prepared for this as well.

Thank you so much for the replies guys!

A couple thoughts:

@Rightfield

You are 100% right in me overthinking things. I tend to do this in many things in life which is not always a good thing. I wish I could just occasionally go in to see her, have a good time and then head home without a second thought. This is how it used to be until a little more recently.

As for your read on her, it makes so much sense. She very much has the “in the moment” vibe to her. Shes enjoying me as one of her more likeable customers and letting her emotions just play out without any additional thought to any of it. Just a guy to enjoy while shes at work.

Viewing things through this lens should help me check my feelings and just enjoy a good thing ITC while it lasts I hope.

I think I've avoided my head being in this place, because it's unattractive to me when women see romance as a way to improve their financial situation. I can't fall prey to the stripper "spend me into loving you" fake out, when I'd never do that as way to find romance, stripper or not.

I don't believe in the "no escape from the friendzone" theory. Rather, I think that's always the preferable way to find a good romance -- be friends first. Ask her to do low/no-cost friend type stuff: hit a coffee shop, go to a street fair or art exhibit, watch a game. The problem comes in if you, like me, spend thousands per month on your top favs. Because then, you're really putting them on the spot, they may feel pressured to say yes for fear of losing a top income stream. So, I make my best judgement as to whether she's showing signs of wanting a level of friendship that would involve time with her that she's not paid for. I've only gotten to the friendship level with a few. It differed with each of them whether/how much I thought they might be open to a romance with me. But, in all cases, they would have had to break off with their SO to date me. I didn't see our prospects as being good enough to ask any of them to take that step.

If you are not breaking your budget by getting more dances than you can afford, you are already handling your desire for her as best as you can. If you get so stuck on her you're missing bill payments, or are too distracted to work, that's a dire situation. You should try to quit her, but it will probably be as hard as quitting a pack a day cigarette habit.

If it's still appealing to you to hit the clubs while traveling, that's a sign you're primarily horny for her, and talking yourself into thinking there are better romance prospects than there are.

You're not the only one who's been there, where you feel like, if she's faking it during the lappers, she'd be big-time in Hollywood. While women generally seem to keep their lizard brain under control better than men do, they still have one. Getting to her lizard brain may actually make it harder to easier for her to dance on you. It may cause distress to the lobes of her brain above the browridge.

If she really wanted to date you, you'd already know it. You should very safely assume that the texting is part of her hustle to keep a good customer on the hook.

A safe rule of thumb is that if she's out of your league in a normal bar setting, then she's still out of your league ITC, even if she's acting nice to you because it's her job, lol.

So you have nothing to lose by pitching a paid OTC date to her. When you do, you'll learn her real views towards you real fast. Either way it goes, you'll be better off. If she rejects your offer, then you can move on. If she accepts, then maybe busting a few nuts in her, and seeing how she behaves OTC, will help you clear your head.

Or you can keep flying around in the false hope holding pattern indefinitely. Or even worse, humiliate yourself by confessing feelings for her just to see her head to the DR to escape you.

And rickthelion's advice about the Jack was perfect. If you need a little liquid courage to nut up and press the matter, then Jack could be your best friend. Cheers!

"You're not the only one who's been there, where you feel like, if she's faking it during the lappers, she'd be big-time in Hollywood. While women generally seem to keep their lizard brain under control better than men do, they still have one."

Bottom line, what usually brings me back from wanting to anything serious with my p4p girls (ok, two of them and they're my ATF4 and ATF5) is until they've aged out of being able to easily string men along to pile up cash they're going to have the impulse to do just that at the first sign of trouble with you. Even with an open relationship, to me it's not worth the hassle unless I'm convinced she's really giving up the life. That's it.

Dramatic pause...Ok, ATF1 is about 50 now and we've gone out as friends as recently as last year after getting back in touch. But she didn't she age particularly well and her life stayed messy. If I'm going to be "telling it like it is" I suppose I should include that.

@Pills

Pretty solid therapy appointment, I think you owe Clubfan and Iwanther a dance.

This armchair psych. says you got to snap out of it.....she's doing business, the business of fantasy. The fantasy that you want for real. She offers fantasy for money, and we can ALL appreciate a master practitioner.

Except Skitard, he's to old and ratchet to get with the program, back to the 50's for you dude! And take Gam with you. Alright, that was uncalled for.

I'll attack Puddy next.

@jaybud

Everyone has been great. Trying to snap out of it for sure. May need some time off or time with another girl at the club. Or time with some non strippers.

"she is never your’s. It’s only your turn."

epic statement!

@TCabot

Yep, definitely heard that line before but always good to hear again.

This was definitely not meant to be a “does this stripper really like me” thread. I know its all business for her. But more of a:

Should I fight these feelings to keep a good thing going ITC or is it too late and make a clean break?

Ultimately I know there is no magic answer, but its nice to hear more experienced club goers take on it so I appreciate everyone who took the time to read and reply.

===> "Should I fight these feelings to keep a good thing going ITC or is it too late and make a clean break?"

What "good thing" would that be exactly? Getting stuck in an endless holding pattern with no real payoff or end game? Are you really so starved for attention that paying her to pretend that she likes you, over countless club visits, is really still that satisfying for you?

Only you can answer those questions. But while you're doing that, maybe also consider this: What would someone who actually had some self-respect and maybe even just a shred of male pride do in this situation? That one I can answer, clearly better than you: He would laugh at himself, shake it off and do what I suggested above, lol.

@Rick

True. Lol.

To even ask the question in the title means that the answer is "Yes, you are becoming too attached". Just like if somebody wonders if they are an alcoholic, then they probably are. The "Time" element associated with your "ATF" is extremely brief. Chill out from her, hit some other clubs, spread your cash around with some other dancers. You won't find another just like her but you will find others you like just as much for different reasons. And, the more dancers you get to know and enjoy, the less you will stress about your connection to any particular one. There are limitless options

@Handfull

Ah, the internet...a magical place where everyone will tell you with 100% certainty exactly what is best for you... :)

I'm not going to comment on anyone else's advice in this thread. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I'll just leave it at that.

Imagine if every human out there had to put their entire life in front of the whole world, and have the world "vote" on what everyone else thought about their life. What percentage of people out there would have a life that's considered so "universally acceptable" that millions and millions of others wouldn't voice some kind of disapproval?

I'm actually not even saying that I disagree with some of these other comments or suggestions, or that I haven't read some comments that I thought had some merit, or maybe even a lot of merit. It's not that I think some posters are necessarily giving you good advice, or that they're necessarily giving you bad advice. What I DO think is that sometimes, on the internet, people will just give advice on what might work for THEM, and they may or may not try to put themselves in your shoes...

Look, you handle this situation however you think it will work out best for you. Take as many or as few suggestions from this thread as you like. But whenever I'm in a situation like this, I know that I try to do what I think will make ME happy! The way I look at it, it ain't my job to please the internet...lol

@ClubFan

I expected all sorts of different replies and I appreciate them all. I just needed to hear different point of views as all my friends in real life know next to nothing about strip clubs.

===> "What I DO think is that sometimes, on the internet, people will just give advice on what might work for THEM, and they may or may not try to put themselves in your shoes..."

@ClubFan, all of that drivel just to - finally - make this point? LOL.

There is no magical uniqueness to his situation which requires some great paradigm shift in our thinking. Infatuation with a stripper is hardly uncommon, especially with newer club hounds. Many of us have experienced it and those of us who spend way too much time in clubs have also seen it happen with plenty of other club hounds.

Sooner or later it almost always ends badly, all too often with the guy making an ass of himself ITC. Some guys also end up dropping a lot of money along the way.

This is paint by numbers for her. She doesn't like him or even respect him - this is just customer maintenance for her. Heck some of the savvier girls, when they realize they have a live one, will run a romance hustle and truly clean a guy out.

Maybe some lessons need to be learned the hard way, Idk.

@rickdugan If I had any interest in debating this topic with you or anyone else, I'd have replied directly to you or to them, but I just don't care about winning debates on the internet...

The ONLY reason that I even replied again at all was JUST for the benefit of the OP. I respect whatever path he ultimately chooses. But since he seems to be much newer to all of this than you or me, I'm trying to give him whatever useful information I can provide, and then hope that everything works out well for him. Not every guy has the same definition of a "good thing". I'm just suggesting to him that he keep that in mind as he takes in various opinions from people on the internet.

If I knew the OP personally, or if I'd ever witnessed even ONE interaction between him and the girl in the club, then I'd be able to give him much more definitive advice. As it is, I've tried to give him some useful info to help him make his own decision. If any of my thoughts seem like drivel to him, then he's welcome to ignore me just like the rest of the world does...lol :)

Peace!

@ClubFan: Passive-aggressive debating is still debating, lol.

Also keep in mind that the opinions he received were not unsolicited. He asked for them, lol. And the predominant view, which is the product of easily over 100 years of cumulative strip club experiences, is that she's engaging in normal customer maintenance tactics and that he shouldn't read anything more into it.

Now I hear you on the notion that he's going to do what he's going to do, irrespective of opinions on here. Like I said before, some lessons just need to be learned. 😉

But if the collective feedback he received here shortens his learning curve just a smidgen or saves him even a little tuition, then it was worth the response time. Maybe some of this tickles in the back of his head and keeps him from going off the deep end in his spending to keep her attention, or prevents him from the all too common mistake of confessing feelings to her, or both.

Or maybe not, lol, but it was worth a try. 😏

@rickdugan Yes, for me, this is ONLY about helping the OP with his dilemma! Before anyone else really joined in the thread, I was already trying to reinforce just how rare it is for customer/dancer relationships to turn into something more. Even though I've had TWO dancers who actually developed feelings for me, I STILL consider my personal odds at ever going beyond the customer/dancer relationship to be ZERO. Not tiny odds, but flat out ZERO! But even if that's the same for the OP, there are things that I don't fully understand about his situation, so I'm not that comfortable suggesting to him what exactly he should do next. As you said though, he asked for the opinions, so it's fine if someone else feels confident enough to offer more direct advice.

I just know that my older and wiser self would have done a few things differently with my club relationships, if I could have gone back in time and had a convo with my younger self! The problem is, I can't really explain all of that very easily to the OP on here, so if there's possibly a unique way that I might handle this situation myself, I've got no easy way to convey that to him...

What exactly are you getting in the club when you say GFE? Are you hoping to get more than what you’re already getting by spending more? Or a relationship?

The big red flag to me is you've been seeing her for 3 months and you have no idea where you stand. If she liked you enough to hang out outside the club, she would've told you a long time ago.

@rickmacrodong

I am not 100% clear on the terminology as I am still newish but I used the term GFE as an experience more than just a quick transaction for services. When I let her know I am there, she gives me her full attention, including turning down other customers to hang out. It always leads to me spending on her, so its still business but more of a prolong ITC fantasy while im there than a brief exchange that I have with other strippers.

She gives you her full attention for 1 of the below reasons:

1 - She likes you, or at least more than the other PLs

2 - She believes she will pull in more cash from you that shift, than from the others

Don't fool yourself into thinking it's #1

Thats fine. She provides an excellent in club experience every time. If I am gonna spend money on a girl, thats kind of the fantasy I want.

There is no converting a stripper ITC or OTC relationship into a girlfriend situation. Its not just about whether the girl is out of your league or vice versa. You met her in a strip club, so she knows that youre the type of guy who has and will pay for lapdances, and possibly has and will pay for all kinds of extras too. So even if she agrees to “date” you, she is going to expect you to continue spending on her in some form.

I was counseled by a veteran pl on this topic.

He said " If you want to keep her, you need to breed her. "

Just date her and see how it goes.