Both guys said a lot that was factually inaccurate and both completely dodged some questions like the one about childcare. Both also took cheap petty shots at each other (Stormy Daniels, Hunter Biden) that two people who have each held the most powerful position in the world should be too dignified to make. Pretty much what I expected from these two.
Trump seemed more composed and rational than I have seen him in years for most of the debate, but seemed to slip into his usually snide, self-aggrandizing and petty self towards the end. He seemed to completely ignore certain questions and just go on and on about talking points that had nothing to do with those questions. His response to the question about accepting the election results won't go over well with undecideds that were turned off by the way he handled the last election.
Biden looked like hell in the beginning and while he pulled himself together a little throughout the debate he never really looked like someone that will be up to doing the job for 4 more years. I think a lot of top democrats were hoping for something more energetic and akin to his State of the Union speech to assure undecided voters that he was up for the job but he failed miserably at that by giving a lot of answers where he seemed to lose his train of thought during his answers. Even some of the talking heads at liberal stations are questioning whether he should step aside instead of continuing his campaign.
In the end, I would say Trump will get a bump in polling following the debate. Not necessarily from anything he said to convince undecideds or to sway Biden supporters, but more from people moving away from Biden based on his seeming cognitive decline compared to the debates 4 years ago.
👍 Wish I Would Have Saw The Debate, Had Other Things Goin' On. Mi Sister Watched It, If I Remember, I'll See For Some Feedback. All I Know, Is That There Sure Are A Bunch Of Issues Happening Right Now. Who Will B The One To Fix Them, Right?
That was rough one to watch. Unfortunately the average voter doesn’t understand the system or n place, knowing that it’s the Supreme Court and congress that runs most of politics. It’s why FDR was in nay shown in certain photos, but Biden didn’t get the same treatment. I hate liberal policy, but I hate unbridled power and self grandizinf even more from Trump. Wow, we need a youthful regeneration so bad I the USA right now! We’re all turning into a nation of SkiDumbs! That’s glum…..
Poor performance by both, the folks that think Trump did well, are confusing agression with style, as poorly as Biden did, and he sure have a good game, Trump just came across like the liar and schoolyard bully he’s always been. I don’t think either of those two have any business running for President, nor did either of them change anybody’s mind last night.
I heard a theory on the radio that the DNC wanted a pre-convention debate to show how poorly Biden would do and necessitate the need for change and have a contested convention that could nominate anyone. This could have been that. Democrat party delegates are not obligated to vote for the primary winner.
Trump did well in the sense that he wasn't an interruption machine like had been in the past. His annoying style of extemporaneous speaking hasn't changed, but he did a good job of highlighting the successes of his administration and contrasting that with the unceasing streak of abysmal failures that Biden has had. No one can argue that Trump did not win that debate hands-down. No matter how much you hate Trump, Biden made the case that he is unfit for duty.
===> "No one can argue that Trump did not win that debate hands-down. No matter how much you hate Trump, Biden made the case that he is unfit for duty."
This. I'm sure that this didn't change any minds among core supporters. But I can't imagine that seeing Biden up there seemingly feeble, incoherent and even lost at times, didn't have an impact on Independents. Add to that Trump staying on script for most of the debate by pounding immigration, inflation and the abysmal state of U.S. foreign policy and I think this debate could be the final nail in Biden's coffin.
As far as a contested convention, Biden already has the delegates, most of whom are Biden loyalists AND political operatives in their respective states. It would be political suicide for them to buck the will of the primary voters as well as various party insiders, many of whom will NOT want an ugly contested convention so close to the general election. Practically speaking, the only way an alternate candidate is chosen at the convention is if Biden drops out, which would de-commit the existing delegates.
^ Right, because that's much more important than aggressors around the world taking advantage of U.S. weakness and wreaking havoc in the process, or an economy still plagued by inflationary pressures, or the mess at our southern border and in our major cities due to unchecked immigration, or...
Didn’t watch. Saw some of the commentary this morning. Biden said he got into the race in 2020 to keep The Lyin’ King from winning. If Biden was honest then, by that same logic he should drop out now. He should’ve dropped out a year ago, but here we are.
A jury just found that Trump committed sexual assault - Reason # 4,823 of why progressives are such douchebags. Bet the asshole chooses strippers by whether or not they have a greenpeace sticker on their car.
(Sorry about my first post, I must have cut-pasted wrong, but after I saw that it went wrong I figured I'd just leave it up anyway.)
Bad "performance" by Biden. I am again angered at the entitled, lazy, smugly self-satisfied level of preparation that the Democrats apply to these major national performances. Again the campaign team thinks, "because we're better at betterness, our betterness will be demonstrated automatically" and otherwise does jack-shit to prepare or present their message. I vote progressive (probably not the right term, and not what skibum is necessarily referring two, just two posts back, but so I call it -- I want the Scandinavian model of social support and sympathize with the European Greens) and therefore want the Democratic Party's power-structure to do a better job of coaxing the American voter into agreeing with their message. The Democratic Party's power structure does exactly the opposite. Through experiences like this, I come to understand the swing voter's and Trump voter's dissatisfaction with the "elites" on the Left who appear like they can't empathize with most of the USA's average citizens, because through experiences like this I see "elites" on the Left who literally can't empathize with most of the USA's average citizens. From Donna frickin' Brazeale losing Al Gore's FRICKIN' HOME STATE in 2000 on down the line, major Democrats' campaigns have been run and ruined by entitled rich prats whose grandparents endowed Ivy type schools and their woke emulators. They deserve all the vitriol that the MAGA movement throws at them. I'm just sad that the vitriol will be served up not only at the prats who deserve it but also at the rest of their platform, message, and candidates. Surround yourself with bad people, get judged by the people you surround yourself with. GET A FRICKIN' DEBATE COACH dumbasses. SPEAK UP. Bother to have water handy. Maybe even look at the camera angles before-hand. WTF, I know this shit and I have never been a campaign professional in my life, I just watch TV, you'd think the Ivy prats could bother to earn a salary once or twice in a lifetime. Yeesh. I would slap those mothers senseless if I could. Carville was the last non-Ivy type to run a major Democrat campaign, more than two decades ago.
Biden was holed up at Camp David for a week straight preparing for this. His people (whoever they are) MUST have known exactly what bad shape he was in and how poorly he'd perform. Yet they let him go on with it.
Hard to know what their intentions are. Only thing for sure, the Dems are ALWAYS working a strategy. Nothing ever happens by chance. They WANTED him to go out there and drool all over himself, or else they would have invented some excuse to pull him out of it at the last minute.
The reason is not yet known, but it should be interesting.
@hank - "Shapiro, Wes Moore or Whitmer would have a much better chance than Biden." Whitmer polled worse vs Trump than Biden. Moore is too young and neither has been polled against Trump (to my knowledge), but they don't have known strong negatives, so maybe. Especially today. But if they try to make a move at the convention, you have someone untested with no apparatus against the meanest candidate in decades. I think any alternative to Biden would be worse...and that's with Biden's betting odds diving harder than a Shohei Ohtani splitter today.
@book guy - not sure how more Biden could have prepared; he prepared in seclusion for A WEEK, with debate terms more biased in his favor than a subway series with an all-Bronx umpiring crew.
@all the non-Trumpers here - you missed your best candidate, Sherrod Brown. He's a true populist Democrat, never cottoned to the woke shit, and favored in the Senate race in the archetypal purple-to-red Rust Belt state, Ohio. He would rally reliable Democrats, but keep the working class from Trump. Only left constituency that might not love him is the radical activists, but they're a lot louder than their numbers anyways. Bernie Sanders--the Sanders who called open borders a Koch Brothers scheme to depress wages, not the one who called for free abortions for illegal immigrants--could similarly be beating Trump. Even Biden in his VP days (not in his decline aftewards).
I think this year, Democrats are going to learn a dear lesson from their contempt for middle America, particularly the white working class.
Biden did have a debate coach. They brought back former White House Chief of Staff Ron Klain as his primary debate coach along with a staff of others from the campaign specifically assigned to debate prep.
Leading up to the debate Klain mentioned that "while you can lose a debate at anytime, you can only win it in the first 30 minutes." It is hard to imagine that he was happy with how Biden looked so frail at the beginning of the debate due to what his doctors described as a combination of a cold and acid reflux.
@Puddy_tat - it would be hilarious to see them run Sherrod Brown at this point considering that here in Ohio his senatorial campaign has spent millions running ads about how he worked with Donald Trump on issues like national security and drugs. He has been trying to show how much he "works across the aisle" in speeches ever since the polls started to favor Trump over Biden in Ohio earlier this year.
@whodey - the fact that they feel the need to rationalize Biden's poor performance says more than anything. Both parties want to paint their guy in a positive light, so I look at how many pundits are willing to say their guy lost. You can see the people here (all Bidenistas) rationalizing with "Biden won on substance" or "Trump didn't acquit himself well, either" or "well, Biden recovered after the first 45 minutes." So what?
Is ANY conservative saying Trump lost, or damaged his case? Is this thought backed up by data anywhere? I'm seeing polls saying they thought Trump won the debate by a 2:1 ratio. In this sharply divided nation, that's not a "win," that's an "ass-tearing."
Oh, and @twentyfive saying Trump was going to bitch out of this debate, have a towel and some soap. You may go ahead and wash the egg off your face now.
@whodey - But Brown's ahead in his race. Even if he were running against Trump, working with Trump shows him as the bigger man over the viciously partisan Trump. I think Brown would be solidly winning right now. Alas, hypotheticals.
@Puddy-Tat "@book guy - not sure how more Biden could have prepared; he prepared in seclusion for A WEEK"
You're right. I should have concluded with phrasing not, as, he prepared too little, but instead, as, he and his team prepared WRONGLY. My general concept (they're self-satisfied about their superiority) remains, adjust as necessary to agree with your more accurate knowledge of the week's history before the debate.
All my family were Sherrod Brown fans. I'm personally impressed with the theory that you have to build the support for your policies. It's the Bloomberg methodology, and Brown seemed on board with it. The Ivy prats running Democrat campaigns for the last quarter-century are not.
By the way Trump lied a LOT. Especially about the security he supposedly offered Pelosi. Thanks to Biden's Ivy prats, this and similar fraud have simply slipped off the radar.
For me, the story is about the Ivy prats. "Democrats are going to learn a dear lesson from their contempt for middle America, particularly the white working class." Yup. It is of course an opportunity, to re-align the Democrat party with the people rather than the "elites". There's tons of hurt out there, largely economic, most of which would be better alleviated (IMNSHO) by progressive rather than regressive policies; but those who are hurting are (perhaps rightly) so turned off by the contempt that the power-structure shows them, that they know damn well this power-structure won't be helping them out. Meanwhile the extremists who fuel the Trump fervor have already re-aligned the Republican party.
It's a brave new world that has such people in it. I'm not sure I'm a member of any party any more. I can't align with insurrection and calling my Veteran relatives "suckers" for signing up. But I can't align with the Ivy prats any more, either. Is anyone talking climate change? Starving middle school children? School textbooks that deny slavery's existence and white-wash the Nazi Holocaust? Our bridges and viaducts crumbling and crashing down during daily commute? Radicalists (Left and Right) shooting each other? Mass shootings at cinemas and shopping malls? The failure of trickle-down to actually trickle downwards any farther than to the CEO himself and nobody else? Uncle Sam sticking his fingers right up into my girlfriend's vagina and calculating her menstrual cycle to assume she's a criminal unless she proves she's not pregnant? Video surveillance? The coming apocalypse AI singularity? And don't forget the zombies?
@Puddy_tat that's true, here in a swing state like Ohio that type of centrist positioning and willingness to work across the aisle is successful. Honestly I think Brown's positions on a lot of issues is closer to my own than either Trump or Biden's extreme right or extreme left views and that is why I have voted for him in the past and likely will for Senate again this year.
Imagine how clips from speeches of Brown saying how much he worked with Trump and Mitch McConnell are going to play in Democratic states. It will go over about as well as a Republican candidate in a red state touting how well they worked with Biden. Some Democrats may just stay home on election day rather than vote for someone that is proud to have worked with Trump. Many deep pocket donors may also hold onto their checkbook rather than donate to such a candidate as well. Especially with some of the clips from campaign rallies saying "Trump was right about securing the border" in the context of fentynal smuggling.
I'm wondering if the debate will do anything to help boost Kennedy's campaign since he may be able to pull in some votors and donors that had previously supported Biden but will absolutely never support Trump.
@book guy - Agree that the sense of superiority will be the death of them. But it also seems like they're fighting on issues their base cares about, rather than those the American people care about. Carville was right, it IS the economy, stupid.
Of the issues you mentioned, climate change is a base issue that the proles don't much care about. Trump insulting veterans is written off as him being bombastic and unthinking. "Insurrection" is the past and doesn't affect daily lives. School textbooks whitewashing slavery, race issues in general, are a niche concern even among black people. Mass shootings are slither drastically overstated problem, and this country still loves guns.
And the ones where Dems do poll well aren't doing them any favors either. Trump has been very shrewd on abortion. More populist economics would poll well but can't be decoupled from Bidenomics, which flopped.
Both the issues and the snobbery result from Democrats only associating with those who think like them.
It was hard to watch. I’m no fan of Biden, but I felt so badly for him - watching him struggle to make a coherent thought, stammering, mumbling, and seeming so lost. How could his handlers put him out there like that? After a week of preparation, they had to know. It was like watching an aging prize fighter getting the shit beat out of him at the end of his career. Biden has served his country for 50 years. It’s time to throw in the towel. Go enjoy your remaining years.
I'm not particularly worried either way, actually. I'm worried if the entire Congress goes WITH Trump.
I think Trump's first term taught some important actors (the military, various agencies in charge of law-enforcement) that they need to learn to act for the Constitution within their mandate rather than simply abiding by dictates from the Chief Executive. I'm guessing that the "football" issue (the fellow who carries the codes to the nuclear arsenal in a briefcase) has come to mind for everyone. The Joint Chiefs won't allow egregious abuse of power, and I think the FBI, the Justice Department, the Federal Marshals, and several other key departments, are full of honorable people. It will be some chaos, but not an overthrow. IMO. Come back and lambaste me if I'm proven wrong.
For example, I've heard through the grapevine, that all members of the Diplomatic corps have had to re-swear their original oaths to the Constitution. Nobody will confirm, can't prove it. What happened, evidently, was that senior State Department people just asked everyone to come in, variously in their various offices, and READ OUT LOUD the whole oath, and swear it again. They all have to take this oath when they first get a job at the State Department. They usually just go through the motions, raiseyerrighthand blah blah. In the past it could be a nice ceremonial occasion especially if people invited family members who also worked at State, but otherwise the oath itself didn't seem to have much consequence. Well, they've re-upped. Someone somewhere got the wise idea, to just make everyone at State (in USA and overseas) reconsider why they do this thing. Are you really honoring your oath? Do you know that you swore to the Constitution, not to the Chief Executive? Did you notice that recently there have been potential conflicts between those two? Are you prepared to actually do the honorable thing? I think that this kind of anecdote suggests, that important people know we have some PEOPLE who are potentially divisive, but we don't need to actually divide the SYSTEM. It's the Comey's and similar actors I'm relying on, here. I'm generally a Democrat voter, but here I'm just putting my trust in honorable conservatives. Not necessarily "Republicans" even though they may identify with that party, especially if it gets them a top job under a Republican administration. Kind of like relying on Pence to certify the election on January 6. I don't like much of what Pence stands for, but he performed his required duties in a sensible way which contributed to the failure of an otherwise attempted violent overthrow of the system. Liz Cheney, Adam Kinzinger, even Paul Ryan, lots of other "RINOs" give me a bit of faith.
Personally, I would hope that ALL my Democrats are "DINOs" (Democrats In Name Only). I think there are plenty of people who got into office by means of signing up for the Republican party because that was how you got elected in their region, who probably like the idea of limited government, but probably also really find Trump to be a despicable prick and an obvious opportunist.
Well, now I'm on record. If things get worse you can call me an idiot. I've suffered worse. :)
@puddy-tat yeah i agree with your assessment of those specifics in response to me. I just threw a bunch out to make examples, didn't try to do anything representative, I'm sure you could think up others. My biggest personal disappointment is the climate change issue. Under many ways of thinking, it's the only one which matters, long-term, at all, but we're essentially ignoring it. https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/news…
The idea January 6th was different in any way from a progressive protest, especially the George Floyd riots, other than being far more effective, is ridiculous. Having said that, history will be very kind towards Mike Pence and recognize that his contribution of sane adherence to the Constitution at a time of intense pressure is a standard all politicians should be held to, even if that means that currently no office in the country would be occupied by anyone.
@skibum I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of the January 6 attempted insurrection. I do dislike the woke riots, as well, and think they need to be addressed more strictly than much current practice, but they weren't generally invading the Houses of Congress in hopes of canceling an election. I can't normalize violent anti-election insurrection. Attempts by Republicans to do so make clear to me how far from decent they have transgressed. I suggest they just admit that some on "their" side are as flawed as some on "our" side, defend the good parts of "their" side, and stop trying to defend the obvious faults. I won't say Biden looks young, you don't say violent insurrections against elections are OK.
@hank - you're entitled to that opinion but it's not borne out by data. I don't know who could win. Maybe if Biden gets two more debates and they time his amphetamine dose right like SOTU, and it's a more unscripted format that makes Trump go wild?
Other problem is that if they ditch him for anyone other than a black woman, there will be hell to pay. Michelle isn't tested as a politician let alone against a face melting opponent like DJT. Harris is a laughingstock.
@book guy - Again, the way the left goes after climate change, they couldn't sell Bibles at a Billy Graham rally. Let me itemize.
1. The green movement has predicted 20 of the last 0 apocalypses of the last 60 years. 2. They are as shrill about it as the worst pro-life activists, the ones that claim God is going to smite America, only with Mother Gaia in place of God. 3. There is NO sense of cost-benefit. You give a great example by saying it's the only issue that matters. Others, when asked how much money we devote to fighting it, say "whatever it takes." That's not an answer when there are a million higher priorities according to Americans themselves. 4. Greens constantly harp on "science," but claiming it's settled and squelching it is more like what the Catholic church did to Galileo. Anyone who's studied science knows that "settled science" is an oxymoron. 5. They also disregard the science when they say the science for full electrification is there. EVs are not ready to replace ICEs, let alone fossil fuels as a whole. Their disregard and stopping permitting of non-carbon emitting nuclear confirm my hypothesis that it's more about penance for western civilization than science. 6. We could cut carbon emissions to not even a fart and China and India would make up the slack in a year. Yet when confronted with this, I just hear gauzy shit like "we need to lead" and "every little bit helps." Maybe but it doesn't fix the problem.
That's why it's an issue for the pundit class and donors.
Biden can’t think on his feet at all. He doesn’t have the mental horsepower to stand up to or push back against the dozens of people who are pushing their leftist radical agenda on him.
@RickDugan lmao so true. I don't care about these guys personal issues, Hunter Biden, Trump court cases, I don't give a shit. You are not going a date with these people.
At the end of the day we have an OPEN BORDER. FULL STOP. I'm just voting for whatever dude is closing that. This is not hard. At all.
Unless Biden's polling numbers drop significantly in the coming days and weeks, this will just be a speedbump.
As to who won the debate, it all depends on your criteria. Repubs are predictably seizing on the style and presentation to declare victory, and looking to sell this by repeating it over and over. This might work with some voters, in particular low information voters. But if the criteria are character and policy, Biden is still going to come out ahead for many.
This idea that Dems have contempt for the middle class is laughable distortion. I won't disagree that Dems can and should make a better effort to connect with a broader base, and be less insular. I can relate to some of the comments and frustrations about leadership on the left. They can do better. But contempt is not the word, generally speaking.
"As to who won the debate, it all depends on your criteria." Yeah, if your criteria is showing the world that Americans elected a fucking jackass, which in turn means we're all jackasses, then Biden won with flying colors.
@wld4tatas - "criteria," LOL what color is the sky in your world? That's some serious spin, you can probably do KJP's job. You're very much in the minority, even for the left, on the debate. Betting odds have already dropped.
You basically affirmed my point on the left's attitude towards the working class, while saying you didn't. Thank you.
@BookGuy "I do dislike the woke riots, as well, and think they need to be addressed more strictly than much current practice, but they weren't generally invading the Houses of Congress in hopes of canceling an election. I can't normalize violent anti-election insurrection."
No the George Floyd BLM protesters didn't go into Congress trying to overturn an election. However, they did take over areas and declare "autonomous zones" that they claimed no longer answered to or were bound by city, state or federal laws. That is at least as much, and I would argue more, of a violent insurrection than the January 6th mob that stormed the Capitol and both should've been punished equally.
Given that those on the far left supported these violent insurrections, why would you not look at Democrats with the same contempt you view Republicans based on the Jan 6th riot?
We are all in trouble, and not just because of a simple debate. I don't care who you might be supporting, here's the bottom line from my perspective, the most troubling fact and this is a fact, one side that will not commit to honoring the results of this election, if you cannot answer with a straightforward "Yes or "No", immediately to this question, you should be ineligible and not allowed to run for any office, let alone President of these United States. The rest of this is just a circus and irrefutable proof of dishonesty.
^ If you want to keep relitigating the past go right ahead, I'm talking about here and now. BTW anyone who can't answer a simple yes or no question with a single word, is lying and that includes Clinton's bullshit answer of what "is" is.
“If you cannot answer with a straightforward "Yes or "No", immediately to this question, you should be ineligible and not allowed to run for any office, let alone President of these United States.”
—
Unequivocally 100% agree. But I would also add there should be a minimum level of mental fitness required to run for President. And all indications are Biden is not passing that test.
The extremists on both sides are tearing this country apart. It’s a sad indictment of this country that the moderate middle could not nominate any two candidates who are better qualified than either of these clowns.
Impeaching Trump over nothing because your side lost the election and then whin being upset about January 6 and your irrational fear that 2,000 retards can conquer the country is hypocrisy. Both are wrong, or both or right. Yes or no.
@motorhead Separate issues but definitely agree. We really need both age limits and term limits, fresh blood, and new ideas are what made us great, what’s happening now is killing our country.
"If you want to keep relitigating the past go right ahead, I'm talking about here and now."
Aren't all of the questions asked of Trump about accepting the results of the election about how he handled past election results? How is that any different than asking about how various democrats (Kamala Harris, Hillary Clinton, Al Gore, Stacy Abrams, Jimmy Carter, et al) have denied prior election results? https://youtu.be/iRYB6N8fBKQ?si=jjD7Ai-t…
In the end Trump said he would "absolutely" accept the election results as long as the election is "fair and legal." I would think that all Americans would want election results to be fair and legal. Are democrats saying that people should accept elections any other way? Do they really want the American people to accept the results of elections that are unfair and illegal? Those are the types that Trump did not agree to accept.
^ The answer is simple if you’re a patriot you accept the fact that our elections are fair and legal period. Any thing else is simply unacceptable and unAmerican, period.
PuddyTat according to one poll I saw, I'm in the majority on the left who thought no one won the debate - 45%. Another 40% of Dems thought Biden won. You seem incapable or unwilling to appreciate that not everyone is judging the debate on the same criteria.
There are people who are low information voters, its a fact. Trump has been saying that Biden didn't do anything to bring down the price of insulin, that it was all done by him. This is a ridiculous lie, and yet there are likely some Americans who believe it because they get all their information from Trump and right wing media. I don't see Fox News calling out this lie (that's a strategic ommision on their part). You might call it looking down at them, but people who believe these lies are certainly ignorant. But, that doesn't equate with looking down at the entire working class.
You're just a big spinmeister here, we all see it.
@wld you're obviously not reading the same pundits who were calling it a disaster and time to panic. If you've lost these career men and women of the left whose job it is to cheerlead, it's fine to take a good long look inside.
"Same criteria," yeah, you can judge a football team based on number of yards from scrimmage, or a baseball team on number of base hits, but you'd be wrong. You're n of one on this thread, and obviously the "spinmeister" is fooling nobody.
If you're calling those who believed Trump's lie on insulin correct, I can call out the ones who believed inflation was transitory, or a good thing, or under control, or that Biden wasn't losing control of his faculties. But at some point, you have to admit the reality in front of your face isn't favorable.
Advice, as I want a robust party on the left to check us, don't piss on our leg and tell us it's raining. You're paying the price of acting like we're retarded. Come to Jesus. Lick your wounds, and learn. We're smarter than you believe.
Biden should step aside and endorse Andy Beshear as the Democrat Presidential nominee. A Democrat who can be elected Governor of Kentucky would have a good chance of getting a broad consensus of people to see the Federal government as legitimate again.
Calling out the misinformation on the right should be exactly the "check" you say you want from the left.
I guess it doesn't sound nice using terms like low information and ignorant, but I don't know how to and am not inclined to sugar coat it. Such people exist on both sides of the political divide, and likely in the minority. But it's a bigger factor on the right.
@wld4tatas - That is your opinion that it's a bigger factor on the right. I have my doubts, particularly when the reach of the broadcast networks, CNN, MSNBC, Hollywood, academia, mass media, and pop culture is FAR greater than that of Fox or the right wing web.
The problem with you lefties is that you spend so much time with each other, talking to people like you, reinforcing one another, and wringing your hands over why the benighted masses dare to think differently. We don't have that luxury, as your POV is getting constantly shoved up our asses.
If you hadn't run Her Entitled Majesty in 2016, we wouldn't have elected Trump. Now, you've become even more the party of the limousine and chardonnay set and the racial/gender/LGBTQ-grievance department at Oberlin. Listen to people like Ruy Teixeira (author of The Emerging Democratic Majority) who are sounding the klaxons. Trump won't be around to dump your failures on forever.
Although Trump's voice sounded better than Biden all that Trump did was lie all night which is insulting to anyone watching. He denied Charlottesville. There's video of him saying what he's denying. He denied having sex with a porn star. So what was the purpose of the hush money then? How stupid do you think people are. The best point Biden made was that 40 of the 44 people that worked with Trump in his last presidency don't support him now. Why? That is extremely telling. I also remember John Kerry beating George W Bush so badly in the debates I was embarrassed for Bush. Bush still won. People think Trump is better for the economy. Really? He still wants to impose 10% tariffs which every economist has said would increase inflation and make things more expensive for all of us. That's his plan? And tax cuts for billionaires.
"He denied Charlottesville. There's video of him saying what he's denying." He said Neo-Nazis should be condemned totally. This is yet another way the left holds on to "Trump = racist" because they have so little to defend.
"He denied having sex with a porn star." I could not care less about this.
"The best point Biden made was that 40 of the 44 people that worked with Trump in his last presidency don't support him now. Why?" He's an asshole and hard to work for. No disagreement there.
"People think Trump is better for the economy. Really?" Three years of inflation-free growth even as the fed hiked up rates to normal levels. His spending was appropriate for a deflationary period. Biden wants to jack up the federal budget and lives under the lie that there are enough "rich" to make up the gap.
I didn't need the debate to make this the first time (and hopefully the last) that I'll ever vote for Trump. But Democrats have been and would continue to be a disaster. That's enough for me.
"The answer is simple if you’re a patriot you accept the fact that our elections are fair and legal period. Any thing else is simply unacceptable and unAmerican, period."
So by your logic Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, Jimmy Carter, Kamala Harris, Hakeem Jeffries, John Lewis, Jerry Nadler, Dianne Feinstein, DNC Chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz, Biden's own Press Secretary Karine Jean-Piere and numerous other Democratic politicians and millions of democratic voters are all unacceptable and UnAmerican since they all stated that Trump was an illegitimate president because he stole the election from Hillary?
Are you really claiming that every election in US history has been "fair and legal?" Do you really believe Jim Crow era elections in the south were fair and legal which would mean all of the allegations or voter intimidation or preventing African Americans from registering and voting were actually lies and it is unAmerican to believe those elections weren't fair and free?
Are you really saying Rev. Martin Luther King Jr was "unacceptable and unAmerican" when he spoke out against the legitimacy of elections in this country prior to the Voting Rights Act?
^ Trump had his days in court, many in fact, not a single court found anything of substance in any of his many filings. It’s over and done with, you can keep litigating this till the cows come home, let’s move on.
Stormy doesn't have a blue dress with dried jizz on it, so it's one person's word against another. Someone who falsely claimed Trump had an illegitimate child also got a payoff. Anyway, even if it's true, the only greasy aspect of it is he lied to her about having a chance of being on his TV show. Whether they fucked is between Donald and Melania. Anyway, it's unimportant compared to him being found civilly responsible for sexual assault.
I'm not saying that there was any fraud during the last election and I believe from a legal standpoint it was fair and legal and that Joe Biden won. That is the same way I view the 2016 election where Trump won despite the litany of Democrats that still claim otherwise. Both Trump and Biden were legitimate Presidents that were elected in fair and legal elections. The only thing that was unfair in the last election was the media, but they have no legal authority over anything in an election and it is up to the voters to either believe or doubt lies told by the media.
But for you to say that unacceptable and unAmerican to question the results of an election and that we should just accept what election officials say is asinine. If you need proof just look at elections in Chicago in the 50s and 60s and then see if you can honestly say those elections were fair and legal.
I hope Trump stands by his statement that he would "absolutely" stand by the results of the election as long as they are "fair and legal." I don't think anyone should promise to abide by election results if they are not fair and legal.
Luckily, in my opinion every presidential election in my 40+ years have been fair and legal. There were some before that where they were not based on what I have read including the ones during Jim Crow where many voters were prevented from voting and in cases like 1960 where evidence has been brought out in court of rampant fraud in Illinois. (Luckily it appears that the fraud did not change the outcome, it just gave JFK a wider much wider margin of victory in Illinois than he actually would've had.)
"The only thing that was unfair in the last election was the media, but they have no legal authority over anything in an election and it is up to the voters to either believe or doubt lies told by the media."
I mostly agree, except that there's a difference between media skewing the facts or strategically choosing what or what not to report, and them outright lying, sometimes with the support (and at the behest) of corrupt government officials. Case in point: the Hunter laptop story, and the letter claiming it was "Russian disinformation."
The letter "signed by 50 former intelligence officials" was reported ad nauseum by the corrupt media. The NY Post's reporting on the laptop was drowned out by an avalanche of stories about the letter, and it was even cited by Biden during a debate as "proof" Trump was lying about the laptop.
Then you've got Zuckerberg's testimony that the FBI contacted Facebook to inform them that the laptop was "disinformation" leading to them censoring the story on their platform.
Of course now we know for sure the laptop was real and the damage-control efforts were bullshit. (The laptop was admitted into evidence at Hunter's trial.) But too little too late. Those people who cast their vote mainly because they believed Trump was in cahoots with the Russians can't get their votes back, nor can they undo 3-1/2 years of Biden pissing all over America.
Relationships, gambling, elections. Once they start, any rule change at all is cheating. No rules can be changed after something starts and due to the "pandemic" the greatest fraud in history, all the rules changed. Every election, every bet, every relationship where the rules change after it starts, is fraudulent. Every pandemic election was a fraud. By the way, all were illegal under the Ex Post Facto clause of the Constitution. Every single one.
Wow, there's way too much from both sides to comment on here and i'll refrain from commenting on wild4testes's colorized leftist shill lies except to say they're colorized leftist shill lies and just comment on one thing that I believe I am 100% correct on, Sherrod Brown.
Brown is a life long politician, a political opportunist whose only goal has been to stay in power while feeding at the public trough. After losing a re-election bid as secretary of state he bided his time then moved from central to northeast Ohio to run for the open seat of a retiring congressman in a heavy democrat area. He was pegged as a carpetbagger but shrugged it off as he had the numbers on his side and easily won the election.
In 2006 brown jumped into the U.S. senate race when the original candidate withdrew. Brown beat Mike Dewine, a RINO and another life long trough feeding politician who is now our governor.
Brown has always been a 'which way the wind blows' politician. He sticks his finger in the air, judges the wind direction then goes with it. When slick willie was feeling heavy heat from the country he came to Ohio for an event. All the major Ohio democrats were there to support him, brown was AWOL. Now he's talking about previously working with Trump in his ads, not because he believes in it, it's because that's the wind direction.
It's how brown operates and very possibly will lead to him being re-elected again.
In the 2011 National Journal's annual rankings, Brown tied with eight other members for the title of the most liberal member of Congress. According to FiveThirtyEight, during the 117th Congress, Brown voted with President Joe Biden's stated position 98% of the time.
Nobody can get elected to high political office without lying. History shows it doesn't work for the government to control the economy (see Soviet Union). But you can't get elected unless you promise the government will avoid all economic problems, without controlling the economy. Some things that affect the US economy, like pandemics or actions by other countries, can't be controlled or completely mitigated. Market bubbles probably could be stopped by the government. But, before they burst, the people not involved don't care about them, and the people who are would be mad as fuck if they are stopped. So it's generally political suicide to stop them. When you prevent a future problem, you get no credit. You just get blamed for the downsides of the preventive measures.
People joke about the Simpsons predicting the future, but it was a different (and funnier) show that gave a spot on breakdown of this election about 30 years ago.
So, in the past 71 comments, who has changed how they plan to vote? Didn't think so.
Who has ceded a point to someone with an opposing view? Yeah, what I thought.
Actions speak louder then words. Money talks, bullshit walks. Congratulations, wld4tatas and twentyfive, each of you has had a $200 donation to winred in your name.
@TheeOSU - I'm seeing a lot of whacko rationalizations of Biden's performance, when the fact was, the rules were ridiculously biased towards Biden and he had a full week to do nothing but prepare. Whole lotta cope on this thread.
> the rules were ridiculously biased towards Biden
Wow this is beyond your usual spin you're just outright fabricating bs
Also interesting to see gamma wasted $400 because of this thread lol. I thought there was some good discussion here overall, even if nobody changed their mind (I didn't see that as the point or purpose).
"Wow this is beyond your usual spin you're just outright fabricating bs"
You might be @wld4tatas but you're @mild4facts. Moderated by a network that hates him. No audience. Mutes on he mics. Despite all that AND a week of nothing but prep, your boy got fucking CLOWNED. Yet you say "Biden won on the facts," that's some spin. Cope harder.
Puddy_Tat - to be fair, at least three of the rules that were put into place greatly benefited Trump as well.
No prewritten notes - Clearly Biden could've used some sort of notes to keep him on track with his answers.
Not permitted to speak to staff - If Biden's staff could've spoken to him they may have been able to say something to change his approach, or at the very least made up some sort of emergency where he would've had to leave the debate early.
Kennedy was excluded - Having Kennedy on the stage would've made for a ready to go alternative to Biden for those voters and donors who are scrambling to distance themselves from Biden but also don't want to move towards Trump. Especially if he was able to stand toe-to-toe with Trump in the debate while Biden mumbled off to the side. A third candidate would've also meant less time for each candidate to speak which could've limit the damage Biden did to himself.
Actually, I have contributed over $3,000 to Donald Trump's defense fund, the RNC, and the Trump campaign. Not a dime of it has been wasted. He has been wrongfully prosecuted (and wrongfully convicted) because he is an outsider who dared to challenge the establishment and beltway insiders. That entire government agencies have been mobilized to destroy someone, simply because they disagree with his policies or don't like his tweets, is the most un-American thing conceivable.
Remember, the government is supposed to be afraid of the people, not the other way around. For that reason, I am happy to help him to pay his legal fees, as I have for the NRA, Daniel Penny, Kyle Rittenhouse, and others.
Any poster on here who claim to love the military and cherish those who serve or enlist (not the same thing), cannot possibly defend Biden or claim he won the debate when he denies that American armed forces have not died during his administration. That act itself shows him unfit for service as Commander-in-Chief.
^ Yup. To forget about 13 soldiers who were killed just shows how very little he cares. But we knew that already, after seeing him check his watch several times during the transfer of their remains. And now in her new book, Jen Psaki denies that it happened (the watch checking) despite the fact it's all on film.
"Biden is unfit, period. He has a callous disregard for human life." True.
"That's why he has been called 'genocide Joe'". False.
He was title genocide Joe by Hamas supporters looking to falsely frame the Israeli war against terror as a genocide against Palestinians. I note this because the truth matters.
All the talk about Trump lying brings to mind Chris Rock's skit about more lies vs. bigger lies.
Yeah, Trump lies a lot. More like he speaks what is convenient before he cares about whether or not it's true. You'll never hear him "circle back" in Jen Psaki corporate-speak. But what affects my life more: "I never screwed a porn star" or "the laptop is Russian disinformation" / "the border is closed" / "I never discussed business with my son."
Biden should note that Americans have chosen private vs public impropriety for some time. Blaine vs. "Ma, ma, where's my pa?" Cleveland, for one. Even after all his sexual assault allegations, feminists lined up behind Clinton, one even saying she'd suck his dick for keeping abortion legal.
Biden drew a line in the sand warning Netanyahu about invading Rafah. He did so because of the growing opposition to the war. Netanyahu snubbed his nose at Biden and invaded Rafah. What did Biden do - nothing! Oh, yes we won't give you 2,000 lb bombs, but here are some more smaller size weapons.
Of course it's genocide against Palestinians. The IDF has been targeting civilian infrastructure, including hospitals and universities. And let's not forget about food shortages, UN vetoes of ceasefires, etc. The propaganda wants us to believe Hamas is everywhere, even hiding under children's cribs.
It ceased being about a war against terror and freeing the hostages. It has became a war to completely destroy Gaza. Netanyahu does not want to end the war in Gaza and is now looking at Lebanon. Biden is complicit in all of this. Thus, he is "genocide Joe."
^ There’s no genocide against the Palestinians by the IDF, if anyone is committing atrocities against the Palestinians it’s Hamas, they picked a fight knowing full well who would be on the losing end of this fight. The fighting would end immediately, if those animals that kidnapped and raped Israeli citizens would return every one of their hostages, and put down their arms
Such a genocide that the Palestinian population has grown so much faster than the Israeli population. If Israel wanted to wipe out Palestine there wouldn't be one stone atop another anywhere in Gaza.
Frankly I'd say Israel has dithered too much already. Fuck Biden who's thinking more about the election than politics. Fuck the UN which lost any kind of moral credibility years ago.
The right seems to want to have it both ways on the Middle East. On one hand, they say Biden hasn't supported Israel strongly. At the same time, they seem happy to repeat this ridiculous term "Genocide Joe", implying he hasn't supported the Palestinians enough. This is another issue where I find Biden has had reasonably good judgement for a complex situation, while Trump and the right just can't be taken seriously.
A war to destroy Gaza would take any reasonably powerful country a long weekend. Here we have brave Hamas intentionally hiding among women, because when they die, even if legally it is the fault of Hamas, progressives will side with the terrorists and blame Israel. Good pub they call it. It is used to fool suckers like progressives. Amazing that we have a war where civilians get killed. It's like so reaaallll and hasn't been happening like since 4 evahhhhhhh. The poor terrorists and their supporters, wah....
Who else was flabbergasted by the absolutely pointless address by Dementia Joe last night? He does comparatively well when he has a teleprompter and it's before 8PM Eastern. 3 minutes filled with factual inaccuracies and outright lies. It is inexcusably shameful.
@gammanu I thought the reason that "entire government agencies have been mobilized to destroy someone [Trump]" was not "simply because they disagree with his policies or don't like his tweets" but rather, because he mounted an armed insurrection against the Houses of Congress in an attempt to overthrow a legitimate election by means of violence. Silly me, I guess the images of January 6 are fabrications.
Armed insurrection lolololol. Progressives are such whiny pussies. Stupid motherfuckers pretend CHOP never existed, which was armed left wing terrorists taking over a sizable portion of American territory by violence and throwing the duly elected Government out. Went on for weeks. So, January 6? Wah, wah. Dems give more weight to the plight of the Palestinians actually means that as progressives we hate anyone who is successful and that means we hate Jews just as much as our socialist brethren, the nazis sis and do. You see all socialists are hypocritical bigots, which is why we emphasize diversity, just to make sure our hyposcrisy is consistent. Different mens the same. War is peace. Wish North Korea would test a nuke, on Gaza.
Though here skibum is aligned with Trump, whose campaign has said that the Democratic Party has become a full-blown anti-Israel, antisemitic, pro-terrorist cabal. Whereas the facts are Biden has supported Israel almost every step of the way in their effort to wipe out Hamas.
These absurd statements from the right are just more evidence of how far right populists have taken over the Republican Party.
Biden supported giving Iran money and could have ended this war with a missile strike on Tehran. The Democratic party is in a state of internecine warfare between sort of regular pro union, working class, pro-democracy democrats and the progressive swine which will eventually take over, which hates all successful people, which is why they hate Jews and old White men, native born Americans because they are less likely to need handouts and thus cannot have their vote purchased with taxpayer money, want open borders and uses climate change and the pandemic to control and jail people. If Biden and the ignorant racists called progressives, actually supported Israel, they would have let Israel spend 10 days bombing indiscriminately and the war would have ended, instead of pretending that the terrorist supporting civilians had an iota of importance. Biden got more Jews killed; more Palestinians killed. more sailors killed and empowered Iran because he is a pussy and a loser. He's the type of asshole who peels off a stuck bandage millimeter by millimeter, whining the whole time, instead of one quick yank. The only good part is that as my expectation of everyone's longevity diminishes, I can go the club much more because Biden's economy is killing them and the money I have not only goes further, but there is more of it because I don't have to worry about living 25-30 more years.
@wld4cope - right wing populism is ascendant across the world, as the common man realizes left wing globalism has sold them a bill of goods. Wealthy liberals taking private jets to events where they talk about cow burps. Jobs fleeing to China to save a few bucks. The common man could give a shit about global warming when they can't put food on the table. The left owns pop culture, entertainment, academia, and the federal bureaucracy, yet you act like the common man is brainwashed.
Biden backed off his support of Israel to placate the America haters, both Islamists in Michigan and malcontented America hating green haired idiots. It's not that the whole left supports Hamas and hates America, it's that all the Hamas lovers and America haters have lined up on the left and Biden isn't backing them off. The progressives
On his best day, Biden was known as a party man and a mediocrity whose views shifted with party dogma. Now he's a walking corpse whose grasping family won't let him quit.
As his old boss used to say, don't underestimate Joe's ability to fuck things up.
@book guy Trump never "mounted an armed insurrection against the Houses of Congress in an attempt to overthrow a legitimate election by means of violence." Trump was never part of the riot at the capital. He told people who had attended his really to protest peacefully and patriotically. The group of anarchists and idiots who rioted at the capital was not affiliated with the Trump campaign. Your entire argument is predicted on a lie.
So-called progressive issues are a small part of the overall Democratic Party platform.
Climate change and renewable energy are now mainstream issues. What else is left to scare people of the "radical left"? That they are anti-Israel, pro-terrorist? Hardly reflected in Biden's actions in the Middle East to date. That they want to make trans acceptance mainstream? Hardly a centerpiece of the Dem platform.
Creating an image of a scary monster on the left about to take over and destroy the country has been part of the Republican playbook for a long time. Critical thinking people will challenge themselves to understand to what extent this monster is real or imaginary (or at least exaggerated).
Progressive issues are the basis of the democrat party platform. CRT in school and DEI in all workplaces- public and private. Men in girls' bathrooms and locker rooms. Abortion on-demand and mutilating children just because they feel confused during puberty. Take all rights away from parents and give it the Dept of Ed and teachers' unions. No borders, no cops, no courts and prisons, and no indovidual right to self-defense. Even if you don't think what they want you to think, you had better say what they want you to say or you will be censored, litigated, and prosecuted to oblivion. Terrorists and rioting is free expression, but guns and faith are bad.
Were you able to keep a straight face when you typed "Creating an image of a scary monster on the left about to take over and destroy the country has been part of the Republican playbook for a long time"? Because that is exactly what the democrat party and liberal media have been screaming about Trump, GOP, and MAGA since 2016. He's a tyrant! He'll crash the economy! He'll start WW3! He's owned by Putin! Remember all that? Or how about the new "Renegade Court"? They're taking away our freedoms! Constitutional right to abortion stripped away? Sound familiar.
You are a hack. A hypocritical little hack. You're too damned dumb to smell the shit that the Biden Admin and liberal media are telling you to shovel. Wake up. You are a Mark 1 Model 0 useful idiot. Don't spend your life stuck on stupid.
@wld - no, progressives have Biden by the balls. Throughout his career he's been a squish who's always followed the leading lights within his party.
Climate change is routinely the lowest priority among issues polled. Even those who think it's a priority know that subsidizing costal prog status symbol EVs aren't the way to go about it.
Anything short of encouraging Israel to finish the job is buying time for Hamas to regroup.
Racial and gender grievance is another backbone of the party. Biden certainly didn't choose Harris on merit. He tokenized KBJ before she was even nominated. Reparations in blue cities and states. Dems especially progs are willing to dig their fingers into any fault lines in order to win.
Biden himself called trans issues the civil rights issue of the day. Europe is starting to recognize "gender affirming care" (rofl) as ideologically driven child abuse. It's affirming to give an anorexic a gastric bypass too.
No need to create a monster, I just point out what's come out of their mouth. And yours. You're finna get your ass kicked, not just for being so out of step with America but for lying about the president's condition for the last 4 years.
"@book guy Trump never "mounted an armed insurrection against the Houses of Congress in an attempt to overthrow a legitimate election by means of violence." Trump was never part of the riot at the capital. He told people who had attended his really to protest peacefully and patriotically. The group of anarchists and idiots who rioted at the capital was not affiliated with the Trump campaign. Your entire argument is predicted on a lie."
You're lying to yourself. Trump requested they go to the Houses of Congress. Trump suggested they arm themselves. Trump attempted to drive to the Houses of Congress to lead them in storming the building. Trump demanded that Mike Pence not certify the election. Trump rallied his riot on purpose. You can watch the films or you can lie to yourself.
"We are all going to go down there ..." If you need to lie to protect yourself from the painful cognitive dissonance of admitting your side unpatriotically attacked American peacekeepers and the houses of congress, you're doing a great job.
You might make a sensible case that this minor attack isn't within the definition of a real "insurrection" by pointing out (for example) how poorly organized it was, how there were no field generals directing troops to particular attack or defensive positions, how there was no supply depot, not centralized command or communications infrastructure. I'd agree, it's a pretty damn weak insurrection. So I'd simply reply, "OK fine, he organized a minor riot on the Houses of Congress to block an election's certification with violence." But you can't possibly pretend Trump didn't direct it. Watch the films, you idiot. Facts is facts.
Both parties put forth candidates that are unelectable for different reasons, and instead of admitting they have a problem, the two sides arrogantly proceeded to double down on losing bets with our money and the future of our country at stake. This debate created a rare opportunity for sanity if anyone in charge has the patriotism to take the steps that need to be taken.
First order of business is for Mr Biden to quit this race in as orderly and efficient fashion as possible.
Second is the Democratic Party Leadership needs to nominate a reasonable, centrist, electable, candidate to represent them in the general election.
My opinion is if that is done properly we can elect a president who will lead us forward and erase this sorry chapter from our history.
The real crime here is the choice we’re being forced to make, a choice between a criminal and an incompetent.
@twentyfive, that "reasonable, centrist, electable" Democrat doesn't exist.
First, if anyone other than Harris replaces Biden, they lose access to a lot of dedicated Biden-Harris campaign funds. Second, can you imagine the uproar among the CRT party if someone jumps a black woman in line? Before anyone says Michelle Obama, she's untested and has repeatedly said she doesn't want to run.
The time for Democrats to find an electable centrist was over the last 4 years, and they refused. Now, with Trump’s sentencing pushed out to September, he not only gets a guaranteed couple more months on the campaign trail, but if he gets jailed, even more of an uproar. And with this last Supreme Court decision on immunity, you have the left openly declaring that Biden should have Trump assassinated.
Democrats are on absolute fucking tilt right now. I wish I could take more joy in that but this could get dangerous for everyone.
^ at this point in time that’s what it appears that the general public wants, if the Democrats find the balls to do the right thing, that’s the only way out of this. Trump would never be electable if a normal person was running. If they put up a reasonable candidate Trump is going to lose.
@twentyfive well said and I agree with most of what you wrote.
In addition to the media outlets discussing if not calling for Biden to step aside, including heavyweights like CNN and NYT, Biden's old hometown neighbor wrote a very well-written letter to Biden, which hopefully he reads. Calling for a brokered, open convention where the candidates make the case for themselves. I would support that. And I'll give the Republicans credit for having had their debates and process, even if Trump was the inevitable winner.
Gonna take a break, the saddest thing is I'm on another international adventure, yet debating politics on a strip club board, typing from my phone lol. Spas, night clubs, good restaurants and extended hotel dates, all keeping me busy. Heading out to an upscale club now that hasn't been reviewed here, will take notes for a review. Gamma you've made some good points will get back to you. As for PuddyTat, I'm sure he's waiting at his keyboard to quickly counter any post not supporting his distorted narrative. Maybe he can get some rest as I won't be posting for a bit.
In case some of you haven't figured it out yet, Biden isn't going anywhere, lol.
I have to say that the amount of disloyalty being shown by Dems to their own sitting President is truly a sight to behold. I mean don't get me wrong, Dem voters have always been understood to be weak self-absorbed ankle biters who just want others to take care of them. But even by these exceedingly low standards the sped at which they turned on their own was remarkable.
Sorry to say folks, but for those of you who so desperately want Biden replaced, it looks like you're gonna have to dance with the one who brung you.
I think it was the democrats’ loyalty (and stupidity) that got them here. If they’d have been more honest with Joe that he’d lost a few mph off his fastball he could’ve eased into this and they’d have had a real primary. Jacked up Joe at the SOTU probably also kept them thinking he could get through the election. Hell of a choice we have in November, and both of them would be lame ducks.
How can anyone think Trump is the best Republican to be President? How is Trump going to magically undo all the economic effects of the COVID pandemic and the Russian invasion of Ukraine? By drinking diet cokes while he watches TV?
I’m of the opinion that the White House staff has been lying to us about Biden’s health. While we all see he had a bad night, It’s doubtful that this was a one of. I’m of the opinion that it’s not a question of if, he’s going to quit, rather it’s when.
Telling that the Democrats are concerned if Biden can win the election, not if he’s fit to be President. They want to keep power. They do not give a shit about Americans.
^ 25, tbh I expected better from you than to see you spouting that "convicted criminal" nonsense. Nobody with a lick of sense and a decent familiarity with the case is confused about the absurdity of the charges. The legal gymnastics that they employed to raise it to a felony will almost certainly be thrown out on appeal. If it was anyone else but Trump it never would have seen the light of day.
I can't stand the orange bad man and wish that any other Republican secured the nomination. But what should be scarier than Trump getting back into office is the utter weaponization of prosecutorial powers by Dems seeking to keep him out by any means necessary. Our legal system is just not supposed to be used like that.
===> "I’m of the opinion that it’s not a question of if, he’s going to quit, rather it’s when."
I'd take the other side of that bet. Did you hear him last night during his ABC interview? And at his recent rallies? It's clear he has no intention of quitting and we're a mere 6 weeks from the Democratic convention and only 4 months away from the general election.
@rickdugan - your last two posts are 100% bang on. I never voted for Trump before this year, now I've donated thousands to his campaign because if lawfare becomes legitimized, we're a de facto one party state.
Trump is a fucking prick, but I'm afraid for what happens if he loses.
@rickdugan "Dem voters have always been understood to be weak self-absorbed ankle biters who just want others to take care of them. But even by these exceedingly low standards the sped at which they turned on their own was remarkable"
The funny thing is, after he sent that letter to Congress today and went on Morning Joe, the flood of hysterical articles about the need for him to quit, his obvious impairment issues, etc., suddenly stopped. In fact, CNN and Yahoo News already stripped them off their front pages, lol. I guess the Democratic Press Corps have received their new marching orders. 😉
For all of you saying that lawfare is the threat to our democracy, have you forgot who led the chants of ‘lock her up’ in 2016? Or who held up aid funds to a foreign country while he asked its president to investigate a rival, and then when that failed, asked that they just announce an investigation? Pay any attention to what Gym Jordan is doing with his subpoena power? Or the Biden investigation which has gone on for two years without a crime to investigate and where the key whistleblower was indicted for lying about his evidence on the Bidens?
FFS, I hate having to defend the piece of shit president’s son, but have you ever heard of someone being indicted for tax fraud after they’ve paid all of their taxes, interest and penalties? Or being indicted on a gun charge for a gun that was never fired or used in a crime?
@RD I stated that was my opinion and the fact that he’s pushing back is his right, it’s not yet even close to done, so what you’re doing is spiking the ball at the 50 yard line, as far as calling Trump a criminal, he is, and you can trivialize his behavior all you like, it doesn’t make it right, in my opinion in a normal political environment he wouldn’t be allowed to run. I really don’t care what anyone says , I’m proud to say I’ll never vote for Trump, that doesn’t make me a liberal, I’m actually a centrist, you folks keep trying to move the guide posts, but it doesn’t matter, if you’re willing to ignore the facts. I’m not going to debate the merits of Biden, and if there’s anyone other then Biden who can win this election let me know how, and why, if I agree that’s who will get my vote. Keep Trump out of the White House that’s my only goal.
===> "For all of you saying that lawfare is the threat to our democracy, have you forgot who led the chants of ‘lock her up’ in 2016?"
The important point however is that, when he took office, nobody talked about Hillary again. It's one thing to chant, but another to act.
As far as the rest, you can't equate that basket of odds and ends moments with the completely out of bounds behavior by various Dem state and local prosecutors, nor with the NY judges who were such willing accomplices. Especially with what took place in NY.
A civil suit over a paperwork violation that should have been a wrist slap, with no victim to speak of since the loan was repaid on time and in full, turned into a mammoth penalty - basically a hand amputation ordered for a speeding ticket. The judge would have done even worse if an appeals court didn't signal that trying to liquidate Trump's entire enterprise wouldn't fly. Unbelievable.
Then there was the hush money payment that was morphed into a felony using novel legal gymnastics, aided by a judge who instructed a jury decide which felony was committed - again unbelievable. Worse though is that they prosecution couldn't even link Trump to the decision on how the payment was made, but of course the helpful judge also instructed the jury that they were allowed to make inferences.
Neither of the NY cases will likely stand on appeal, but they should scare anyone who believes that justice is supposed to be apolitical. This was a wild escalation of lawfare, but sadly not the end I suspect.
25, it's over dude. All that's left now if for the Dems to complete their trip through the 5 stages of grief. Right now many of them are still in the 1st stage, which is denial, but soon enough they will cycle through the stages until they finally move to the last one, which of course is acceptance.
That’s fine. We appear to agree that it’s both sides, but disagree about when the degree of lawfare matters.
As for the hush money case, I said before it was like Jay Z in 99 Problems getting pulled over for going 55 in a 54. It’s still beyond the law. I agree that suit against Trump should never have been brought, but he was guilty and he knew what he was doing was wrong. Why else agree to pay $130k to Stormy and then pay a total that’s more than double, all so it wouldn’t be a check coming directly for Trump or his company going directly to Stormy? Does that sound like someone who believes what they are doing is innocent?
^ The degree of lawfare matters when local officials, with just a little bit of power, turn minor cases into major ones with potentially severe consequences. The degree of lawfare matters when judges are bending over backwards to facilitate these cases.
All Trump could be proved guilty of in the hush payment case was making a hush payment, which itself is not illegal. Whether he knew the details of how it was paid, and what his intent was in doing so, were all inferred thanks to a very helpful judge. This case will never survive appeal.
Now was he guilty in the loan paperwork case? I'd agree with that. But given the victimless nature of the crime, that should have been settled out of court for a fine. instead they treated a speeding ticket case like a grand larceny conviction, again thanks to a very helpful judge.
You seem not to understand the gravity of these lawfare escalations, but eventually you will. What happens to me, can happen to thee, when the shoe is on the other foot. Prosecutors and most especially judges are not supposed to behave like this and once it becomes acceptable, the rule of law loses the respect it needs to flourish.
^ You expect certain behavior from everyone except Trump, yet when he gets his own foot back in his ass, that's not right, me I see it as Karma, Trump just getting the same ration of shit he gives.
I don't know what "lawfare" means, but if anyone's complaining about the "weaponizing" of the FBI then they're a frickin' idiot. The ENTIRE FUCKING POINT of having a BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION is that they ARE THE WEAPON OF LAW ENFORCEMENT. When the evidence points to a crime, the investigation should continue. When it doesn't it shouldn't. So far we have a double-standard.
Encouraging a mob to arm itself and storm the Capitol building is a crime. Duh.
^ Trump talked loud, but was by and large restrained in his actual use of power against political enemies. Biden OTOH speaks softly (if he can be understood at all), but has been much more aggressive in his actual (ab)use of power.
Hopefully Trump will continue to exercise the same restraint when he's back in the WH. But if not, you can bet he'll use the ridiculous multi-pronged lawfare campaign waged against him as his excuse.
I understand the implications of the escalation of lawfare just fine thanks. It scares me. It was at the heart of my point that both sides are engaged in the lawfare war and I don’t see how it goes away as we seem to getting more divided as a country. We need a reset button.
I blame McCarthy and McDonnell for this. They had the opportunity to convict Trump when he was impeached for trying to prevent Biden’s inauguration, but they would have risked being primaried. They instead just hoped he’d go away on his own. And now the joke is on all of us.
^ Trump and restraint in the same sentence, that's laughable, again, it's not law fare it's karma. This argument is getting old, it's really time for new blood in the White House they're both too old, Trump is just as senile as Biden, and it's long past the time they should have been gone.
Let me add this shit show isn't confined to the White House, we need term limits, across the board, all three branches , Executive, Legislative, and Judiciary, replace these arrogant motherfuckers, fucking bunch of thieves.
Biden spent his entire career as a politician. He's never had a real job since the lifeguard gig where children would rub his hairy legs. Yet he and his whole family became milti-millionaires, even Hunter the junkie who outside of Joe's orbit would have been found face down in a swimming pool.
Now we have a vegetable with the symbolic title of President while a nameless, faceless invisible hand is running the country and running him, so he and Jill can enjoy the pomp and circumstance they believe they deserve.
===> "It was at the heart of my point that both sides are engaged in the lawfare war and I don’t see how it goes away as we seem to getting more divided as a country."
You don't get to play the "both sides are equally culpable" card when one side has been pounding the shit out of it when another has not. Or when judges become active participants, as was all too obvious in the two NY cases. The multi-angle attacks against Trump were unprecedented. And it goes away when they stop doing it.
Heck, the NY AG Leticia James actually campaigned on the promise of prosecuting Trump, before she knew if any crime was actually committed. Just imagine that - a prosecutor in search of a crime to prosecute. Alvin Bragg was no doubt similarly motivated when he manufactured a felony out of a recordkeeping dispute - that had passed the statute of limitations incidentally. Neither could have succeeded without tremendous help from the judges involved, which is the scariest part of all to me.
Sadly, 25's simplistic and myopic attitude is all too commonly shared by the liberals who cheered this nonsense on: Whatever it takes to get the orange bad man is A-OK because he brought it on himself. But these issues are far bigger than Trump. History may remember these historically corrupt prosecutions as a turning point in American jurisprudence.
Arguing with liberals is a complete waste of time. You are literally arguing with idiots. They only want to hear you agree with and reinforce their worldview which always begins with "orange man bad."
I am seeing people arguing against a second Biden term (any democrat admin would merely be a fourth Obama term), for which the only realistic alternative is a second Trump term. The liberal response is the same denial, excuse-making, obfuscation, and "but Trump!" arguments we have heard since before 2016. Liberals, and you are libs, do not actually care about science and facts when these contradict their worldviews. Most are too frail to admit when they are wrong and take the red pill.
I say sadly trying to discuss anything with a Trump supporter, is ridiculous, an exercise in futility, these folks are indoctrinated as a cult, as a. example, look at this thread, they use insulting language to make their points, yet they can't have a simple discussion, that would rile them up too much, idiots all revert to code words, and phrases (red pill, or phrases like myopic world view, even denying shit that happened right in plain view the riot on January 6, the list goes on and on,) Talking about sad, did anyone catch that picture of Trump and his potential V.P. nominees, all wearing oversized suits, along with identical red ties, that were too long LOL, they have no idea how normal Americans are laughing at them. Let me leave you fellas to your obvious circle jerk-off session.
“You don't get to play the "both sides are equally culpable" card when one side has been pounding the shit out of it when another has not.”
Both sides are going after the other. The difference is Trump committed crimes. To every one of the indictments Trump’s response has always been “lawfare” “rigged” or “persecution.” You know what he’s never said? “I didn’t do it.”
If the hush money payment wasn’t illegal, why pay $400k to conceal a $130k payment? If he declassified the presidential records, why not respond to National Archives and say “I have them, but they are declassified.” Why engage in a conspiracy to hide the documents and deny that you have them?
His excuses fall apart quickly. He had criminal intent.
He shouldn’t have been prosecuted in the two NY cases. Any good defense lawyer would’ve told him to settle/plea once he was sued/charged. He loves playing the victim.
It's nice to see Hank being his authentic self. He is not a conservative and never was. All of his arguments are factually false.
Trump has stated several times that he is innocent of the charges. He entered please of not guilty. This is blatantly rigged, persecutorial lawfare. In the sexual assault case, the state legislature went back and changed laws and statutes of limitations specfifically to aid that civil suit in being brought. Despite the plaintiff's own contradictory statements, he was found guilty by a biased jury. The fraud case was also convicted by a biased jury where no crimes were actually committed. The "hush money" case was the penultimate demonstration of law fare with a biased jury, compromised judge, and corrupt DA manipulating and mutilating charges and courtroom instructions to fit a predetermined outcome. The correct term for Trump in each of these cases is "wrongfully convicted." If we were to use the liberal logic for celebrating Trumps conviction, that means that every black man lynched by every white mob and convicted by every white jury was in fact guilty and got what he deserved. The jury - in a courtroom or in the street- found him guilty and gave him justice on the wrong end of a short rope, right? Every Indian (feather-not-dot) killed by a cowboy or soldier was guilty of attacking American settlers -whether they did or not. They must have done it because they were punished for it. All of the Jews killed by the Nazis must have been money-grubbing seditionists, or they would not have been rounded up on trains and send to death camps, right? That's the liberal logic.
$400,000 was paid to the lawyer for legal fees. The convicted lying lawyer alleges that was to offset the taxes he would have to pay to collect his full reimbursement. Even if the lawyer was being honest, show me the crime? Stormy has testified verbally and in writing multiple times that she never slept with Donald Trump. She's perjured herself.
Trump did not engage in a conspiracy to hide documents never denied having them. He cooperated with the investigation every step of the way. They were much safer in a padlocked storeroom at Mar-a-lago than in Joe's garage and college libraries. Especially with Chinese-owned (and occasionally Ukraine-rented) Hunter snooping around.
The facts do not fit your chosen narrative, but that doesn't change what the truth is. It just means you refuse to accept the truth.
That's something I laugh at about the liberals. If you support Trump, you're a "cultist." If you support Biden (or Obama), you're "factual," or "enlightened" or something.
Perhaps we need an Operation Warp Speed against Trump Derangement Syndrome.
Gamma, why does it bother you so much that I’m a registered republican? You’ve heard of never trumpers? That’s me. Your hero is what drove me away from the party. I voted for Haley in the primary. She’d already ended her candidacy but I was there to vote in our senate primary and it was another chance for me to vote against Trump. I embrace the party of law and order. Apparently that’s not the Republican Party anymore. Don’t see that on too many tshirts these days.
Anyway, there’s a difference between saying “I didn’t do it” and pleading not guilty and you know it.
In the E Jean Carroll c, he presented no evidence. Did not call a single witness. You heard him on tape saying “I like to grab them by the pussy.” She testifies that he grabbed her by the pussy and he doesn’t get on the stand to deny it. Didn’t even go to the trial. It wasn’t a criminal trial. He could’ve testified and chose not to. But the jury was biased? He was accused of doing something entirely on brand and didn’t defend himself in a civil case. Be objective.
The story about the $400k in the Stormy trial by Trump makes no sense. Cohen was on salary. He was mad he got shorted on a bonus. That’s how corporate lawyers work. You know who sends bills? It’s outside counsel. Ever hire one? They usually send detailed bills. Then you have a Trump employee with detailed notes showing how the $400k was calculated. It had nothing to do with legal services. Again, Trump put on barely a defense. He put on that idiot that testified to one of the House committees during the trial to accuse Cohen of being a liar, so Trump’s knee jerk reaction is to bring him to court? He got skewered. That’s case number two where your innocent man put on a shitty defense.
The NY fraud case… wasn’t that the one where he chose his lawyer by how she drsssed on the golf course? The fake tits and puffed up lips? No judgment. She’s hot, but do I pick her to defend me in a case where liability had already been found and it was just to determine how many hundreds of millions I’d have to pay? NFW.
Telling Walt Nauta to move the docs before the FBI looked in the storeroom is a conspiracy. Multiply it 25x for all the actions he took and it’s 25 felonies. His lawyers denied that he had those docs. That’s on him. What’s your argument? That he didn’t know the government wanted them back? That he would’ve returned them if they said pretty please? Cmon man. Trump refused to return them when asked, when subpoenaed and when raided. Biden (and Pence) asked their people to search and when they found classified docs, they brought in DPJ/FBI to complete the search. That’s the same to you?
Your guy is an idiot, with bad judgment and a tendency to do crimey things.
^^ Folk that are in cults react to the truth, if it wasn’t a cult you’d laugh at the thought, instead everyone who’s against your dear leader is deranged. Especially an anonymous poster on an internet site it’s simple, if it bothers you it must be true!
Trump supporters look into a mirror and see a progressive. Progressives look in the mirror and see a Trump supporter. Weird how reflections are the exact same, just opposite.
^ What ironclad reasoning. Aristotle's corpse must have a boner the size of Florida for that. I'd laugh, but it's not witty or insightful.
For a "cult," you might want to ask why he's pulling away from your guy. Cults have squadrons of functionaries suppressing the truth, like that for 5 years your guy has been suffering from dementia (likely associated with Parkinson's) and the left has resorted to personal attacks to silence anyone who said it.
"Don't compare me to the almighty, compare me to the alternative."
^ you struggle under the illusion that I support Biden, because you have convinced yourself that anyone who recognizes Trump for the criminal incompetent that he is poses a threat in your thoughts. I have every right to oppose Trump as strongly as you support him.
^ Threat? LOL no, your depth of thought on this thread is "cult" and "circle jerk" and such WTF reasoning as "if it bothers you, it must be true." You aren't convincing anybody, here or otherwise.
Go ahead and oppose Trump, I won't think less of you for it. I have plenty of thoughtful friends on the left.
But do try to make a better case rather than just venting your spleen. Serious cranky old man energy just like we're seeing from the White House these days.
So there's no evidence to support a claim that Biden has been aggressive in his abuse of power. Pivoting to criticize Leticia James and Alvin Bragg is appropriate though - those cases were certainly politically motivated. But not because of Biden.
Trump is attempting to connect Biden to the NY cases, but once again, it's just another con.
>People who don’t respect/use “correct” gender pronouns should be subject up a $30k fine and 6 months in prison. >Delusional thinking by left wing terrorists.
Sounds like a fringe activist. They don't represent most people on the left.
When Republicans suggested that Clinton would be prosecuted after leaving office, George Bush firmly declared don't waste your time I would pardon. Just like any real President would do to protect the office. Anyone with children looking at what is going on in politics should fear for their future.
If any of you liberal bastards, including RINOs and "never-Trumps", were to honestly admit that all of this prosecution is actually persecution, unlawful, and politically motivated and you support it because you hate Trump and believe the ends justify the means; then I would acknowledge that you are finally being honest and speaking the truth.
I admit that prosecuting Trump is political payback, but having known of and followed him from back in the day I also know he cares about himself only, doesn't give a shit about America, lies all the time, is and was a shitty businessman, because if you took his inheritance and put it in a passbook savings account when he got it he'd be wealthier than he is now. I don't support prosecuting him, but he is no more fit to be President than Biden. End of story. To me he is the choice 50.01% to 49.9% because I don't want progressives having a say through this senile thug loser. Anyone who thinks Trump's policies are real Republican policies is simply uneducated. Calling people Rino's seems something a progressive would do, not something an American would do.
This really isn't the thread for it, but how is calling someone who registers Republican and them supports democrat initiatives a RINO un-American? You, skibum, do not support Trump, but you do recognize that this is a weaponized perversion of our legal and justice system which threatens the foundations of our Republic. You also oppose the leftist policies that have further brought our nation to near collapse. You are not a RINO.
25 and hank claim to be Republicans but oppose every Republican initiative, support every leftist ideology, and even quote Don Lemon and Rachel Maddow verbatim claiming those quotes as their own. Those are RINOs, that is pure dishonesty.
^ Never claimed to be a Republican, always said the same thing I’m a centrist you’re an idiot that makes up shit about everyone, I’ve quoted Madow or Lemon when, you pathetic little boy?
I’ve voted for both parties , what I have said is I’ve probably voted for more Republicans than you.
It’s way past time for you to shut the fuck up, we’re all aware of how stupid you are.
BTW gammanu Since when does anyone need your fucking permission to post, who here gives a flying fuck what you believe you little turd Like I’ve said shut the fuck up you stupid little boy
During the discussion about Hurricane Ian, which you lost and rage-quit again, you said "I grew up there, and these storms are intensifying." Which is word-for-word what Don Lemon said when he lost the debate with the NOAA director.
When I blasted MSNBC, you sided with Random Loser, quoting Rachel Maddow, and defending had brave, beautiful, insightful, and other laughable garbage.
I have a photographic memory, but you can go and look it up. We all know you have no life and nothing else to do.
BTW 25 you are the spit-spewing old tard who loses his mind when I comment on one of "your" threads. I'll give you a clue: this is Founder's website. Anything we post on here becomes his IP. His threads. And clearly, you care very, very much about what I believe. You lose, again. Thanks for playing.
Gamma, I don’t need your approval or blessing that I’m being honest. I’ve already said the NY cases were brought for political reasons. That is objective fact. Whether they are “persecution” is hyperbolic opinion and doesn’t require an answer.
Where is your honesty? Care to admit Trump either put on no defense or a shitty? No, you’d prefer to blame everyone else. Or the fact that he did all of those acts? That he refused court orders to return the classified docs and hid them from the FBI? He’s a liar and a cheat.
As for me being a RINO? Being a registered republican isn’t enough for you? How about the fact that in my decades of voting I’ve voted for only two democrats, Hilary and Biden. I’ve voted republican time and time again even though on some issues (abortion, 1st Amendment, gay marriage) I lean left. It just so happens those are the issues that come up frequently. Toss in the republicans trend away from fiscal responsibility and the USA being a leader of the free world, and you can add two more issues where we’ll disagree. I woulda’t even comment on the issues where I lean left here except for this place is otherwise an echo chamber and is boring if nobody points out another perspective. I just don’t call other people names while making my points.
Please present yourself to the neuroscience research department of any major university for study because to date there has been no evidence that "photographic memory" even exists.
Hank, you're delusional. Trump put on a defense. That's what his lawyers do. It makes perfect sense that he would not take the stand in his own defense, since his abrasive personality and bombasticism would have worked against him. In all actuality, it would not have mattered. As has been noted before, the guilty verdict was a predetermined outcome in deep blue New York City. He did not receive a fair and impartial trial. That Carroll cunt denied he did it until she said he did, there was no financial fraud, no campaign finance violations, and Stormy adamantly denied an affair until she wanted some publicity. The documents? He acknowledged he had them and locked them up as requested. He refused to return them while the bureaucracy worked out rightful ownership. That's all reasonable. The DOJ used it as a pretext for harassment and prosecution. That is all fact.
A RINO is a registered Republican by definition. You voted for Hillary AND Joe? Then you are a RINO by definition. Plenty of card-carrying centrist democrats voted third party or skipped the presidential contests. Voting for Hillary and Joe underscores your very poor decision making. If you disagree with me on fiscal responsibility and America's place on the world stage, then you must be a big-government, tax and spend liberal and a globalist. Those are two more defining traits of a RINO. Thanks for proving my point.
The idea that anyone who leans left considers the First Amendment to be important is laughable. Every fucking hate speech law is a left-wing creation. 99% of the speakers shouted down or disinvited on campus are conservative. The January 6th rioters were a rebellion, but the George Floyd rioters and thieves were protesting. Democratic Socialist or National Socialist Worker's Party are two groups who wanted freedom of hate speech for themselves, with no one being able to say anything in opposition.
Abortion and gay marriage are not mentioned in the Constitution. Constitutionally, these should be left to the individual states. Regardless, these are not issues for me politically. The Republican Party has actually removed references to both from their platform (at Trump's request, no less).
Free speech is a Constitutionally protected right, and as Skibum points out it is the left who seeks to abridge and control this right. The left wants to control what you can say because that is how you control information and what people think. To lean left on the first amendment (really almost any of the original Bill of Rights) is to fail the most basic understanding of American history and civil rights.
"Left on the first amendment" used to mean being anti censorship and nearly free speech absolutists.
Now, "left on the first amendment" is censorship of non-left points of view, hate crimes laws for not showing proper respect to the pride flag, and forcing religious groups to violate their conscience.
Hank, you refused to vote for a 2020 election denying gubernatorial candidate, yet you voted democrat after they spent eight years denying W's election in 2000 and the past eight denying the Don's win in 2016. Isn't that grossly hypocritical?
Come on, that’s what you want to go with? That 2020 was the same as 2000 and 2016? Gore conceded the election and went to W’s inauguration. Hilary conceded the election and went to Trump’s inauguration. Not only did Trump not concede, he went on tv and claimed he won the election before all the votes were counted, then ordered his VP to not certify the election, and skipped Biden’s inauguration and still hasn’t concede. You know this. If only there were video of all of those things. Be better. And fuck you for making me defend Al Gore.
Gore conceded the election after he exhausted every avenue of cheating so spare me. Going to an inauguration after you cheated and lost, or in Hillary's case after foisting a fraud on the american public with that Dossier, makes them even more pathetic. Trump is a honest douchebag cheater and those two are dishonest douchebag cheaters. More respect for the guy who shoots me in the face than the one who stabs me in the back. Thanks for the fuck you lol. First time I have seen it in writing today but have had it said to me twice already today lol.
Fuck you for lying for Al Gore. He sued for the presidency. He conceded, reneged, and tore the counthypocritical. He and his liberal cohorts have never conceded that W was a legitimately elected president. Hilary conceded, then spent four years saying that the Russians stolen the election for Trump. Now answer the question, you hypocrit.
Just admit that your stance is indefensibly hypocritical, and you're happy to have a corrupt vegetable in the Oval Office as long as there are no mean tweets.
RINO, hypocrite … you’re so focused on your labels without paying attention to the substance. I’ve answered your leading question twice already. You just don’t like my answer.
And ‘mean tweets’? FFS, when will you MAGAs move past 2017? Nobody gives a shit about mean tweets. The intervening attempt to block the inauguration (among other things) has anti trumpers focused on substance.
At least in theory anyway. E.g. the democrats say another Trump presidency will be Armageddon but apparently can’t get their heads out of their collective asses to replace Biden on the ballot.
Yeah sure. When Trump wins the election this November and Biden claims victory on election night, then has all of his minions declare election fraud on CNN with no evidence, loses 60 lawsuits, rallies BLM to storm the capitol, orders Kamala to not certify the vote count …. AND AND AND … I make excuses why it’s not the same as Trump, then you could accurately call me a hypocrite.
Oh, you mean like Gore in 2000 and Hillary in 2016? Yeah. And Trump never "rallied" anyone to storm the capitol. You're full of shit.
Also, why are you letting me push your buttons? Why are you expending so much time and energy to deny being labelled a RINO and hypocrit on such an inconsequential medium? Do you want to be like 25 when you are old and resentful with no family, friends, or life and have TUSCL be the sole source of your daily (anti-)social interactions? There is no website - insta, X, TUSCL, or reddit which replaces having a life and being out in the world. Yes, you can be a RINO and hypocrit out there or deny who you really are out there. Your call, but don't confuse this with anything that truly matters.
>The number 3 guy at the Justice Dept left his top-level fed job to work as a prosecutor for Alvin Bragg's office to prosecute Trump. Still believe the feds aren't colluding?
Colangelo and Bragg knew each other before Bragg was elected Manhattan DA. Bragg was looking to get a highly qualified attorney on his team, with extensive prior experience prosecuting Trump. There's no evidence of collusion with the DOJ or Biden. Try thinking more objectively instead of believing every right wing conspiracy theory.
>....were to honestly admit that all of this prosecution is actually persecution, unlawful, and politically motivated
Nope, not the federal classified documents case. Trump was given multiple opportunities to return all the classified documents, but basically gave the DOJ the middle finger. The case is legit, and could have been avoided, but Trump brought it on himself.
^ No defense, even if he caught himself. An epic gaffe in front of NATO. After the events of the past two days there is renewed momentum to change course. I will now join 25 in sharing the opinion it’s a question of when, not if.
Not sure what to think. The Putin remark was disastrous but then I thought he was better than I expected. He obviously lost his train of thought several times and said “anyways” to move on. And he ended poorly by calling Harris “Vice President Trump”.
Agree with motorhead. Other than a couple gaffs which we have (sadly) become accustomed to, I think he far exceeded most expectations. But I can't help but wonder if it was somehow fixed in his favor. As usual, he proudly (and strangely) announced he'd be calling only on pre-selected reporters from a list "they" gave him. And we know "they" have a history of feeding their perceived allies with canned questions.
Yet even if he knew the questions, his answers were longer and more developed than I expected, other than the couple times he seemed to go on a tangent and then oddly cut it off with, "Anyway."
If this were any other politician with full mental acuity, I'd give this performance a D. But given what we've come to expect from Sleepy Joe, I'd say it was a B-.
Also worth noting, although I couldn't see a teleprompter screen, his beginning speech clearly sounded like he was just reading it. They probably filmed it in such a way as to not let you see the prompter. That wouldn't have helped him on the question part (too much of a risk feeding answers that way) but still, you'd think he would just come out and talk about the summit without it being written for him.
Regardless, his better than expected performance puts the Dems in more of a pickle. Harder for them to justify his ouster, and yet he could easily do another faceplant on the next debate, and probably will.
This isn't just about Joe, it's about the entire party apparatus concealing Joe for the last 5 years despite seeing the same things we saw, only unfiltered and more often.
I agree with the Tat (trying to embrace your 3d person image). He met a low bar. Dems best argument is still Trump is bad. 2d best argument is Biden’s record of getting legislation passed (infrastructure and Chips primarily). But those aren’t a case to believe that Biden can handle the job for the next four years. They can’t make that case because he can’t do it. My fear is that they (continue to) fuck around with this decision for too long and wind up doing nothing.
@hank - I'd flip those around. Trumpophobia and "threat to democracy" only gets so far, because we've already had one Trump term without the end of the world. 1/6 fades further into the background every year, and doesn't affect daily lives. Shit, other than abortion, which also fades every year post-Dobbs, civil liberties were MUCH better under Trump than Biden. "Don't compare me to the almighty, compare me to the alternative" implicitly says you fucked up.
If I were Biden (or any Democrat) I'd start with "look what we did to make the average person's life better." It isn't perfect, especially viewed in light of the debt it triggered (leaving us with the Sophie's Choice we have now between still-not-controlled inflation and rising unemployment) but it has tangible benefits that independents can see, like the cap on insulin pricing.
Trump isn't an ideologue, he's a pragmatist and negotiator, which means his views are subject to change. Trump also thrives on opposition and anger (his own or others'). If this were a "go positive" election, Democrats would cake-walk. But just like you can't resist scratching at that bug bite, Democrats can't resist scratching at Trump. He's the tabloid king, do you really think you can get down and dirty with that?
Oh and I'd scrap Biden ASAP, throw it all behind Harris, play on her prosecutor background, and kick progressives to the curb. Even Democrats, in guarded moments, say no way in hell Biden lasts another 4 years.
The general consensus is that Bidens NATO presser was better than his debate performance. To say it was " better than expected" for the leader of the most powerful country in history is unacceptable. Noone seems to want to admit that it was worse than his ABC interview with Stepho. More importantly, his are you going to vote for anyone who helped to cover up and deny that the president is completely non compos mentis? This was criminal fraud on a national scale. You want the Big Lie? Tell me Biden has been leading and commanding the past four years.
The idea that Kamala Harris is now viewed as the best choice is disgusting. In the Democratic primary in California, she was 5th. The 5th fucking choice of Democrats who know her best 4 years ago is now the savior? Her reputation as a prosecutor has been undermined by every statement she has made in the last 4 years when she became a knee jerk liberal.
^ your choice will likely be between Harris and Trump, both bad, Trump is worst, keep in mind most if not all of his White House staff will not be supporting him.
Appreciate your thoughts, Tat, but you’re understandably coming from a Trump voter point of view. Trump is bad is still the best argument to get other voters to come out and vote. That said, it’s not a good argument to keep Biden because the argument is still there and applies to whomever the dems decide to put on the ticket. They need to make a better case.
New inflation numbers came out today and prices actually went DOWN last month. The signs of the improving economy are there. Leave it to dems to fuck up the message. You can’t TELL people they feel better which is what they’ve been doing to poor effect. The numbers are good to create hope and a light at the end of the tunnel. Morons.
Agree on your argument for Harris. “Do you want to vote for the prosecutor or the felon?” But they can’t crown her and hand her the nomination. They need to run a fuller process of 6-8 best candidates and somehow either need to get Big Gretch and/or Shapiro on the ticket to help in Mich or PA.
@hank - Yes, it is coming from a Trump voter, but I'm detaching myself and talking tactics here. The Trumpophobia line of attack (other than abortion) hasn't been working, so why double down on it? I see both parties doing things that don't work but press their orgasm buttons...in the Democrats' case, it's working themselves into a lather about Trump and pushing the racism button at every opportunity...in the Republicans' case, it's nominating shitty candidates because they "stand up to the liberal media," idiots like Kari Lake who don't have a chance (and even Trump), or non-conservatives like Tulsi Gabbard.
Other thing is, I think Trump has been very cagey about his positions. He's a lot more disciplined than he was in 2020. He's distancing himself from the GOP's unpopular abortion position, and saying less outrageous shit than usual.
I saw the inflation numbers but it's still above target and now unemployment is rising. It's like squeezing a balloon. And 20% cumulative rise in the price level can't be wished away. Saying "inflation is down" is like saying you put out most of the fire you created--the damage has been done. The "corporate greed" argument is re-fucking-tarded when corporations have been profit-maximizing entities as long as they've existed. Trump has had a huge lead in approval rating on the economy, and Dems are reduced to saying you're too stupid to see how good we are.
Disagree on "crowning" Harris...I think it's their best bet, less than 4 months out from the election. Chaos helps no one. I know they talk about "democracy" and Republicans are questioning their commitment to it, but a political party isn't part of the American government. They can do what they please. If someone else gets the nomination, they'll have to define themselves before Trump can define them, and Trump defines his opponents very well. I've also heard that only Harris can access most of their campaign funds.
Democrats also talk about having a deep bench, but if they did, they wouldn't be running Biden again. Harris has not been a successful VP by anyone's definition. Whitmer has her COVID policies. Newsom has a state that everyone is moving out of. Shapiro is largely unknown. With their race fetish, they're talking about Hakeem Jeffries and Wes Moore, but they haven't distinguished themselves.
In any case, Trump is up 3, and that's about 10 points better than he was at this point in 27. I figure the electoral college is good for 2 points for the GOP.
^ Not really a fan of the potential Democratic nominees, you like to point out many of their negatives, but your guy (Trump) has more negatives than anyone you’ve put forth. as far as the Dems ability to fuck it up, your gang isn’t exactly picture perfect either, betcha the GOP crowd paints themselves into a corner a few more times before the election, my bet is the the loser is the party that screws up last.
^ what you don’t realize is I’m far from down, I’ve made more money in the last year than ever, including the Trump market, plus, if Trump gets elected I’ll probably be just fine. The sad part is the draft dodger, who if he gets re-elected, will continue to gaslight, and steal from the taxpayers like he’s been doing.
>it's about the entire party apparatus concealing Joe for the last 5 years
More moronic right wing spin. Biden is one of the most publicly visible and scrutinized people in the world. Fox News et. al have been chomping at the bit to catch and publicize every unflattering comment and gesture Biden has made since he took office. We've all seen various examples over the years. Only difference is it became more obvious / worse recently.
>that the president is completely non compos mentis?
Another desperate attempt from right wingers. Gaffes do not equate with lack of sound judgment or insanity. I'll still trust Biden's judgment far more than Trump.
>>>^ I'm not talking about you (though anecdotes aren't data), I'm talking about the Biden campaign being down and in chaos.<<<
Your right puddy no question about it, just like every other election campaign ever, there’s always something pops up, let’s see how they handle this, and keep in mind, the last mistake or surprise is when the election is won. Just like Mrs Clinton in 2016, and Trump in 2020, between now and November there will be many unforced errors my bet is the last candidate to make an unforced error will be the loser.
LOL @wld, fOx nEwS, the left's all purpose excuse to avoid inconvenient truths. Dementia doesn't occur overnight. Did Fox just decide to ramp out up after that debate? It became obvious because Biden's handlers couldn't hide him in an unscripted format off hours. Sundowning, look it up. This is more than "gaffes," the curtain just got pulled back.
And cool it with the wHaTaBoUt tRuMp. You can ditch Biden for someone who, even if I might not agree with them, might not have a first class ticket on the Parkinson's express. I'd rather have anyone but Biden running against Trump, because if a Democrat wins, at least our enemies won't sense blood in the water after 4pm EDT.
@25 - that's a truism. Of course anything can happen. But most surprises aren't good for the incumbent. An economic crash, a foreign crisis. Only surprise that would hurt Trump would be if he says something outrageous that isn't accounted for in his approval ratings.
Just curious if anyone knows. Looking for a serious answer (but jokes welcome also). What happens if we're a week or two before election day, early voting has begun in some states, but half the country still hasn't voted. Then one of the two candidates drops dead. Does the VP candidate automatically advance to the top of ticket?
M.O. ^^ if after the convention, but before the date of election the respective party each decides the candidate. If after the election, but before the electoral college votes, no one knows and never did. If after the election and after the electoral college votes I believe the 20th amendment says the VP.
Trump was more willing to be critical of israel and netanyahu, and i believe received less donations from AIPAC, so he appears to be less corrupt than Biden. Of course Biden probably isnt corrupt himself, even if he was when he was younger, hes not in his senses enough currently, to genuinely be corrupt. He obviously has people behind the scenes controlling and directing him. He gave a hilarious speech saying he might not walk like he used to.. might not talk like he used to.. but he speaks the truth! And the crowd erupted in cheers.
^^Touche, not!! Trump making any outlandish lie for his oberzealous grifting personality is the more absurd asinine comment to be had. Really, like he was ever going to make them pay for it. We import cheap goods and services from them(Mexico), we already make them pay for doing business w/us. Look at the value of the peso over the last few decades…..
It seems as if all of the Biden voters here are voting against Trump because, even though they have never met him, they hate Trump personally. Despite all of their claims about Trump being demonstrably false, they bitterly cling to the false mainstream media narrative as if their lives depended on it. The few paltry reasons given to actually vote for Biden are blatant lies. They are all documented lies. He wrecked the economy. He has weaponized the justice system. He has shown our enemies that Joe's color do run. He abandons allies like he changes his Depends. He is obviously senile and not in charge. How can someone say they love the USA and want the best for this nation, and vote for someone who claims no soldiers were killed on his watch and trample over 16 gold star families and dozens of wounded military veterans? It is unconscionable.
^^Let’s not forget your dear cult leader is the one that’s referred to as private flat feet, for his draft evasion during the Vietnam War, BTW what branch of the service have you served with ?
Biden didn't weaponize the justice system. There is no evidence of such a claim.
The economy is not wrecked, it is recovered. Historically low unemployment, strong GDP growth, inflation down to 3%, and btw last month prices on everyday goods and services actually FELL. The first time that happened in 4 years.
These and other endless right wing lies illustrate another aspect of this election - it's not just about defeating Trump but also defeating a party that has become distorted by MAGA extremism and morphed into the party of con, in the image of their cult leader.
For those still struggling economically - what's needed are more policies that help lower income families, not the rich. Dems are the superior choice here.
So there are multiple reasons to vote blue this year, it's not all about "Orange Man Bad".
If illegal immigrants who are working are deported, and no one is available to fill their shoes, that will reduce production, and thus cause inflation. Of course, even if they can be replaced, it will probably be at a higher pay rate. Which will also be inflationary. But in that case, the rest of us should suck it up.
Raising import tariffs across the board will be inflationary. In some cases, it will just me primarily more profit for the 1%, and lower quality goods and services. But in other cases, it could mean a better situation for lower income households. In the later cases, we should suck up the inflation.
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Trump seemed more composed and rational than I have seen him in years for most of the debate, but seemed to slip into his usually snide, self-aggrandizing and petty self towards the end. He seemed to completely ignore certain questions and just go on and on about talking points that had nothing to do with those questions. His response to the question about accepting the election results won't go over well with undecideds that were turned off by the way he handled the last election.
Biden looked like hell in the beginning and while he pulled himself together a little throughout the debate he never really looked like someone that will be up to doing the job for 4 more years. I think a lot of top democrats were hoping for something more energetic and akin to his State of the Union speech to assure undecided voters that he was up for the job but he failed miserably at that by giving a lot of answers where he seemed to lose his train of thought during his answers. Even some of the talking heads at liberal stations are questioning whether he should step aside instead of continuing his campaign.
In the end, I would say Trump will get a bump in polling following the debate. Not necessarily from anything he said to convince undecideds or to sway Biden supporters, but more from people moving away from Biden based on his seeming cognitive decline compared to the debates 4 years ago.
All I Know, Is That There Sure Are A Bunch Of Issues Happening Right Now. Who Will B The One To Fix Them, Right?
I don’t think either of those two have any business running for President, nor did either of them change anybody’s mind last night.
Goddamn Siri !
Trump did well in the sense that he wasn't an interruption machine like had been in the past. His annoying style of extemporaneous speaking hasn't changed, but he did a good job of highlighting the successes of his administration and contrasting that with the unceasing streak of abysmal failures that Biden has had. No one can argue that Trump did not win that debate hands-down. No matter how much you hate Trump, Biden made the case that he is unfit for duty.
This. I'm sure that this didn't change any minds among core supporters. But I can't imagine that seeing Biden up there seemingly feeble, incoherent and even lost at times, didn't have an impact on Independents. Add to that Trump staying on script for most of the debate by pounding immigration, inflation and the abysmal state of U.S. foreign policy and I think this debate could be the final nail in Biden's coffin.
As far as a contested convention, Biden already has the delegates, most of whom are Biden loyalists AND political operatives in their respective states. It would be political suicide for them to buck the will of the primary voters as well as various party insiders, many of whom will NOT want an ugly contested convention so close to the general election. Practically speaking, the only way an alternate candidate is chosen at the convention is if Biden drops out, which would de-commit the existing delegates.
But you hold on to your single issue genius. 😉
No, it’s not logical because there is no other Democrat that could beat Trump.
Biden is the only shot, then and now.
Bad "performance" by Biden. I am again angered at the entitled, lazy, smugly self-satisfied level of preparation that the Democrats apply to these major national performances. Again the campaign team thinks, "because we're better at betterness, our betterness will be demonstrated automatically" and otherwise does jack-shit to prepare or present their message. I vote progressive (probably not the right term, and not what skibum is necessarily referring two, just two posts back, but so I call it -- I want the Scandinavian model of social support and sympathize with the European Greens) and therefore want the Democratic Party's power-structure to do a better job of coaxing the American voter into agreeing with their message. The Democratic Party's power structure does exactly the opposite. Through experiences like this, I come to understand the swing voter's and Trump voter's dissatisfaction with the "elites" on the Left who appear like they can't empathize with most of the USA's average citizens, because through experiences like this I see "elites" on the Left who literally can't empathize with most of the USA's average citizens. From Donna frickin' Brazeale losing Al Gore's FRICKIN' HOME STATE in 2000 on down the line, major Democrats' campaigns have been run and ruined by entitled rich prats whose grandparents endowed Ivy type schools and their woke emulators. They deserve all the vitriol that the MAGA movement throws at them. I'm just sad that the vitriol will be served up not only at the prats who deserve it but also at the rest of their platform, message, and candidates. Surround yourself with bad people, get judged by the people you surround yourself with. GET A FRICKIN' DEBATE COACH dumbasses. SPEAK UP. Bother to have water handy. Maybe even look at the camera angles before-hand. WTF, I know this shit and I have never been a campaign professional in my life, I just watch TV, you'd think the Ivy prats could bother to earn a salary once or twice in a lifetime. Yeesh. I would slap those mothers senseless if I could. Carville was the last non-Ivy type to run a major Democrat campaign, more than two decades ago.
Hard to know what their intentions are. Only thing for sure, the Dems are ALWAYS working a strategy. Nothing ever happens by chance. They WANTED him to go out there and drool all over himself, or else they would have invented some excuse to pull him out of it at the last minute.
The reason is not yet known, but it should be interesting.
Whitmer polled worse vs Trump than Biden. Moore is too young and neither has been polled against Trump (to my knowledge), but they don't have known strong negatives, so maybe. Especially today. But if they try to make a move at the convention, you have someone untested with no apparatus against the meanest candidate in decades. I think any alternative to Biden would be worse...and that's with Biden's betting odds diving harder than a Shohei Ohtani splitter today.
https://www.realclearpolling.com/betting…
@book guy - not sure how more Biden could have prepared; he prepared in seclusion for A WEEK, with debate terms more biased in his favor than a subway series with an all-Bronx umpiring crew.
@all the non-Trumpers here - you missed your best candidate, Sherrod Brown. He's a true populist Democrat, never cottoned to the woke shit, and favored in the Senate race in the archetypal purple-to-red Rust Belt state, Ohio. He would rally reliable Democrats, but keep the working class from Trump. Only left constituency that might not love him is the radical activists, but they're a lot louder than their numbers anyways. Bernie Sanders--the Sanders who called open borders a Koch Brothers scheme to depress wages, not the one who called for free abortions for illegal immigrants--could similarly be beating Trump. Even Biden in his VP days (not in his decline aftewards).
I think this year, Democrats are going to learn a dear lesson from their contempt for middle America, particularly the white working class.
Leading up to the debate Klain mentioned that "while you can lose a debate at anytime, you can only win it in the first 30 minutes." It is hard to imagine that he was happy with how Biden looked so frail at the beginning of the debate due to what his doctors described as a combination of a cold and acid reflux.
Is ANY conservative saying Trump lost, or damaged his case? Is this thought backed up by data anywhere? I'm seeing polls saying they thought Trump won the debate by a 2:1 ratio. In this sharply divided nation, that's not a "win," that's an "ass-tearing."
Oh, and @twentyfive saying Trump was going to bitch out of this debate, have a towel and some soap. You may go ahead and wash the egg off your face now.
You're right. I should have concluded with phrasing not, as, he prepared too little, but instead, as, he and his team prepared WRONGLY. My general concept (they're self-satisfied about their superiority) remains, adjust as necessary to agree with your more accurate knowledge of the week's history before the debate.
All my family were Sherrod Brown fans. I'm personally impressed with the theory that you have to build the support for your policies. It's the Bloomberg methodology, and Brown seemed on board with it. The Ivy prats running Democrat campaigns for the last quarter-century are not.
By the way Trump lied a LOT. Especially about the security he supposedly offered Pelosi. Thanks to Biden's Ivy prats, this and similar fraud have simply slipped off the radar.
For me, the story is about the Ivy prats. "Democrats are going to learn a dear lesson from their contempt for middle America, particularly the white working class." Yup. It is of course an opportunity, to re-align the Democrat party with the people rather than the "elites". There's tons of hurt out there, largely economic, most of which would be better alleviated (IMNSHO) by progressive rather than regressive policies; but those who are hurting are (perhaps rightly) so turned off by the contempt that the power-structure shows them, that they know damn well this power-structure won't be helping them out. Meanwhile the extremists who fuel the Trump fervor have already re-aligned the Republican party.
It's a brave new world that has such people in it. I'm not sure I'm a member of any party any more. I can't align with insurrection and calling my Veteran relatives "suckers" for signing up. But I can't align with the Ivy prats any more, either. Is anyone talking climate change? Starving middle school children? School textbooks that deny slavery's existence and white-wash the Nazi Holocaust? Our bridges and viaducts crumbling and crashing down during daily commute? Radicalists (Left and Right) shooting each other? Mass shootings at cinemas and shopping malls? The failure of trickle-down to actually trickle downwards any farther than to the CEO himself and nobody else? Uncle Sam sticking his fingers right up into my girlfriend's vagina and calculating her menstrual cycle to assume she's a criminal unless she proves she's not pregnant? Video surveillance? The coming apocalypse AI singularity? And don't forget the zombies?
Imagine how clips from speeches of Brown saying how much he worked with Trump and Mitch McConnell are going to play in Democratic states. It will go over about as well as a Republican candidate in a red state touting how well they worked with Biden. Some Democrats may just stay home on election day rather than vote for someone that is proud to have worked with Trump. Many deep pocket donors may also hold onto their checkbook rather than donate to such a candidate as well. Especially with some of the clips from campaign rallies saying "Trump was right about securing the border" in the context of fentynal smuggling.
Of the issues you mentioned, climate change is a base issue that the proles don't much care about. Trump insulting veterans is written off as him being bombastic and unthinking. "Insurrection" is the past and doesn't affect daily lives. School textbooks whitewashing slavery, race issues in general, are a niche concern even among black people. Mass shootings are slither drastically overstated problem, and this country still loves guns.
And the ones where Dems do poll well aren't doing them any favors either. Trump has been very shrewd on abortion. More populist economics would poll well but can't be decoupled from Bidenomics, which flopped.
Both the issues and the snobbery result from Democrats only associating with those who think like them.
Biden has served his country for 50 years. It’s time to throw in the towel. Go enjoy your remaining years.
I think Trump's first term taught some important actors (the military, various agencies in charge of law-enforcement) that they need to learn to act for the Constitution within their mandate rather than simply abiding by dictates from the Chief Executive. I'm guessing that the "football" issue (the fellow who carries the codes to the nuclear arsenal in a briefcase) has come to mind for everyone. The Joint Chiefs won't allow egregious abuse of power, and I think the FBI, the Justice Department, the Federal Marshals, and several other key departments, are full of honorable people. It will be some chaos, but not an overthrow. IMO. Come back and lambaste me if I'm proven wrong.
For example, I've heard through the grapevine, that all members of the Diplomatic corps have had to re-swear their original oaths to the Constitution. Nobody will confirm, can't prove it. What happened, evidently, was that senior State Department people just asked everyone to come in, variously in their various offices, and READ OUT LOUD the whole oath, and swear it again. They all have to take this oath when they first get a job at the State Department. They usually just go through the motions, raiseyerrighthand blah blah. In the past it could be a nice ceremonial occasion especially if people invited family members who also worked at State, but otherwise the oath itself didn't seem to have much consequence. Well, they've re-upped. Someone somewhere got the wise idea, to just make everyone at State (in USA and overseas) reconsider why they do this thing. Are you really honoring your oath? Do you know that you swore to the Constitution, not to the Chief Executive? Did you notice that recently there have been potential conflicts between those two? Are you prepared to actually do the honorable thing? I think that this kind of anecdote suggests, that important people know we have some PEOPLE who are potentially divisive, but we don't need to actually divide the SYSTEM. It's the Comey's and similar actors I'm relying on, here. I'm generally a Democrat voter, but here I'm just putting my trust in honorable conservatives. Not necessarily "Republicans" even though they may identify with that party, especially if it gets them a top job under a Republican administration. Kind of like relying on Pence to certify the election on January 6. I don't like much of what Pence stands for, but he performed his required duties in a sensible way which contributed to the failure of an otherwise attempted violent overthrow of the system. Liz Cheney, Adam Kinzinger, even Paul Ryan, lots of other "RINOs" give me a bit of faith.
Personally, I would hope that ALL my Democrats are "DINOs" (Democrats In Name Only). I think there are plenty of people who got into office by means of signing up for the Republican party because that was how you got elected in their region, who probably like the idea of limited government, but probably also really find Trump to be a despicable prick and an obvious opportunist.
Well, now I'm on record. If things get worse you can call me an idiot. I've suffered worse. :)
yeah i agree with your assessment of those specifics in response to me. I just threw a bunch out to make examples, didn't try to do anything representative, I'm sure you could think up others. My biggest personal disappointment is the climate change issue. Under many ways of thinking, it's the only one which matters, long-term, at all, but we're essentially ignoring it. https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/news…
Other dems might be a long shot to win. Biden will lose. I’d rather take a long shot than lose.
Other problem is that if they ditch him for anyone other than a black woman, there will be hell to pay. Michelle isn't tested as a politician let alone against a face melting opponent like DJT. Harris is a laughingstock.
@book guy - Again, the way the left goes after climate change, they couldn't sell Bibles at a Billy Graham rally. Let me itemize.
1. The green movement has predicted 20 of the last 0 apocalypses of the last 60 years.
2. They are as shrill about it as the worst pro-life activists, the ones that claim God is going to smite America, only with Mother Gaia in place of God.
3. There is NO sense of cost-benefit. You give a great example by saying it's the only issue that matters. Others, when asked how much money we devote to fighting it, say "whatever it takes." That's not an answer when there are a million higher priorities according to Americans themselves.
4. Greens constantly harp on "science," but claiming it's settled and squelching it is more like what the Catholic church did to Galileo. Anyone who's studied science knows that "settled science" is an oxymoron.
5. They also disregard the science when they say the science for full electrification is there. EVs are not ready to replace ICEs, let alone fossil fuels as a whole. Their disregard and stopping permitting of non-carbon emitting nuclear confirm my hypothesis that it's more about penance for western civilization than science.
6. We could cut carbon emissions to not even a fart and China and India would make up the slack in a year. Yet when confronted with this, I just hear gauzy shit like "we need to lead" and "every little bit helps." Maybe but it doesn't fix the problem.
That's why it's an issue for the pundit class and donors.
At the end of the day we have an OPEN BORDER. FULL STOP. I'm just voting for whatever dude is closing that. This is not hard. At all.
As to who won the debate, it all depends on your criteria. Repubs are predictably seizing on the style and presentation to declare victory, and looking to sell this by repeating it over and over. This might work with some voters, in particular low information voters. But if the criteria are character and policy, Biden is still going to come out ahead for many.
This idea that Dems have contempt for the middle class is laughable distortion. I won't disagree that Dems can and should make a better effort to connect with a broader base, and be less insular. I can relate to some of the comments and frustrations about leadership on the left. They can do better. But contempt is not the word, generally speaking.
Yeah, if your criteria is showing the world that Americans elected a fucking jackass, which in turn means we're all jackasses, then Biden won with flying colors.
You basically affirmed my point on the left's attitude towards the working class, while saying you didn't. Thank you.
No the George Floyd BLM protesters didn't go into Congress trying to overturn an election. However, they did take over areas and declare "autonomous zones" that they claimed no longer answered to or were bound by city, state or federal laws. That is at least as much, and I would argue more, of a violent insurrection than the January 6th mob that stormed the Capitol and both should've been punished equally.
Given that those on the far left supported these violent insurrections, why would you not look at Democrats with the same contempt you view Republicans based on the Jan 6th riot?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_…
The rest of this is just a circus and irrefutable proof of dishonesty.
BTW anyone who can't answer a simple yes or no question with a single word, is lying and that includes Clinton's bullshit answer of what "is" is.
—
Unequivocally 100% agree. But I would also add there should be a minimum level of mental fitness required to run for President. And all indications are Biden is not passing that test.
The extremists on both sides are tearing this country apart. It’s a sad indictment of this country that the moderate middle could not nominate any two candidates who are better qualified than either of these clowns.
Separate issues but definitely agree. We really need both age limits and term limits, fresh blood, and new ideas are what made us great, what’s happening now is killing our country.
Aren't all of the questions asked of Trump about accepting the results of the election about how he handled past election results? How is that any different than asking about how various democrats (Kamala Harris, Hillary Clinton, Al Gore, Stacy Abrams, Jimmy Carter, et al) have denied prior election results? https://youtu.be/iRYB6N8fBKQ?si=jjD7Ai-t…
In the end Trump said he would "absolutely" accept the election results as long as the election is "fair and legal." I would think that all Americans would want election results to be fair and legal. Are democrats saying that people should accept elections any other way? Do they really want the American people to accept the results of elections that are unfair and illegal? Those are the types that Trump did not agree to accept.
Any thing else is simply unacceptable and unAmerican, period.
There are people who are low information voters, its a fact. Trump has been saying that Biden didn't do anything to bring down the price of insulin, that it was all done by him. This is a ridiculous lie, and yet there are likely some Americans who believe it because they get all their information from Trump and right wing media. I don't see Fox News calling out this lie (that's a strategic ommision on their part). You might call it looking down at them, but people who believe these lies are certainly ignorant. But, that doesn't equate with looking down at the entire working class.
You're just a big spinmeister here, we all see it.
"Same criteria," yeah, you can judge a football team based on number of yards from scrimmage, or a baseball team on number of base hits, but you'd be wrong. You're n of one on this thread, and obviously the "spinmeister" is fooling nobody.
If you're calling those who believed Trump's lie on insulin correct, I can call out the ones who believed inflation was transitory, or a good thing, or under control, or that Biden wasn't losing control of his faculties. But at some point, you have to admit the reality in front of your face isn't favorable.
Advice, as I want a robust party on the left to check us, don't piss on our leg and tell us it's raining. You're paying the price of acting like we're retarded. Come to Jesus. Lick your wounds, and learn. We're smarter than you believe.
I guess it doesn't sound nice using terms like low information and ignorant, but I don't know how to and am not inclined to sugar coat it. Such people exist on both sides of the political divide, and likely in the minority. But it's a bigger factor on the right.
The problem with you lefties is that you spend so much time with each other, talking to people like you, reinforcing one another, and wringing your hands over why the benighted masses dare to think differently. We don't have that luxury, as your POV is getting constantly shoved up our asses.
If you hadn't run Her Entitled Majesty in 2016, we wouldn't have elected Trump. Now, you've become even more the party of the limousine and chardonnay set and the racial/gender/LGBTQ-grievance department at Oberlin. Listen to people like Ruy Teixeira (author of The Emerging Democratic Majority) who are sounding the klaxons. Trump won't be around to dump your failures on forever.
or an old man who wants everyone to think as he does
but really the congress senate house make the laws and decisions
He said Neo-Nazis should be condemned totally. This is yet another way the left holds on to "Trump = racist" because they have so little to defend.
"He denied having sex with a porn star."
I could not care less about this.
"The best point Biden made was that 40 of the 44 people that worked with Trump in his last presidency don't support him now. Why?"
He's an asshole and hard to work for. No disagreement there.
"People think Trump is better for the economy. Really?"
Three years of inflation-free growth even as the fed hiked up rates to normal levels. His spending was appropriate for a deflationary period.
Biden wants to jack up the federal budget and lives under the lie that there are enough "rich" to make up the gap.
I didn't need the debate to make this the first time (and hopefully the last) that I'll ever vote for Trump. But Democrats have been and would continue to be a disaster. That's enough for me.
Any thing else is simply unacceptable and unAmerican, period."
So by your logic Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, Jimmy Carter, Kamala Harris, Hakeem Jeffries, John Lewis, Jerry Nadler, Dianne Feinstein, DNC Chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz, Biden's own Press Secretary Karine Jean-Piere and numerous other Democratic politicians and millions of democratic voters are all unacceptable and UnAmerican since they all stated that Trump was an illegitimate president because he stole the election from Hillary?
Are you really claiming that every election in US history has been "fair and legal?" Do you really believe Jim Crow era elections in the south were fair and legal which would mean all of the allegations or voter intimidation or preventing African Americans from registering and voting were actually lies and it is unAmerican to believe those elections weren't fair and free?
Are you really saying Rev. Martin Luther King Jr was "unacceptable and unAmerican" when he spoke out against the legitimacy of elections in this country prior to the Voting Rights Act?
But for you to say that unacceptable and unAmerican to question the results of an election and that we should just accept what election officials say is asinine. If you need proof just look at elections in Chicago in the 50s and 60s and then see if you can honestly say those elections were fair and legal.
I hope Trump stands by his statement that he would "absolutely" stand by the results of the election as long as they are "fair and legal." I don't think anyone should promise to abide by election results if they are not fair and legal.
Luckily, in my opinion every presidential election in my 40+ years have been fair and legal. There were some before that where they were not based on what I have read including the ones during Jim Crow where many voters were prevented from voting and in cases like 1960 where evidence has been brought out in court of rampant fraud in Illinois. (Luckily it appears that the fraud did not change the outcome, it just gave JFK a wider much wider margin of victory in Illinois than he actually would've had.)
I mostly agree, except that there's a difference between media skewing the facts or strategically choosing what or what not to report, and them outright lying, sometimes with the support (and at the behest) of corrupt government officials. Case in point: the Hunter laptop story, and the letter claiming it was "Russian disinformation."
The letter "signed by 50 former intelligence officials" was reported ad nauseum by the corrupt media. The NY Post's reporting on the laptop was drowned out by an avalanche of stories about the letter, and it was even cited by Biden during a debate as "proof" Trump was lying about the laptop.
Then you've got Zuckerberg's testimony that the FBI contacted Facebook to inform them that the laptop was "disinformation" leading to them censoring the story on their platform.
Of course now we know for sure the laptop was real and the damage-control efforts were bullshit. (The laptop was admitted into evidence at Hunter's trial.) But too little too late. Those people who cast their vote mainly because they believed Trump was in cahoots with the Russians can't get their votes back, nor can they undo 3-1/2 years of Biden pissing all over America.
Brown is a life long politician, a political opportunist whose only goal has been to stay in power while feeding at the public trough. After losing a re-election bid as secretary of state he bided his time then moved from central to northeast Ohio to run for the open seat of a retiring congressman in a heavy democrat area. He was pegged as a carpetbagger but shrugged it off as he had the numbers on his side and easily won the election.
In 2006 brown jumped into the U.S. senate race when the original candidate withdrew. Brown beat Mike Dewine, a RINO and another life long trough feeding politician who is now our governor.
Brown has always been a 'which way the wind blows' politician. He sticks his finger in the air, judges the wind direction then goes with it. When slick willie was feeling heavy heat from the country he came to Ohio for an event. All the major Ohio democrats were there to support him, brown was AWOL. Now he's talking about previously working with Trump in his ads, not because he believes in it, it's because that's the wind direction.
It's how brown operates and very possibly will lead to him being re-elected again.
In the 2011 National Journal's annual rankings, Brown tied with eight other members for the title of the most liberal member of Congress.
According to FiveThirtyEight, during the 117th Congress, Brown voted with President Joe Biden's stated position 98% of the time.
https://www.tiktok.com/@crunchyearlobesx…
Who has ceded a point to someone with an opposing view? Yeah, what I thought.
Actions speak louder then words. Money talks, bullshit walks. Congratulations, wld4tatas and twentyfive, each of you has had a $200 donation to winred in your name.
an interesting spin job from the washington post regarding the build up to and the debate and aftermath...
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/…
Wow this is beyond your usual spin you're just outright fabricating bs
Also interesting to see gamma wasted $400 because of this thread lol. I thought there was some good discussion here overall, even if nobody changed their mind (I didn't see that as the point or purpose).
You might be @wld4tatas but you're @mild4facts. Moderated by a network that hates him. No audience. Mutes on he mics. Despite all that AND a week of nothing but prep, your boy got fucking CLOWNED. Yet you say "Biden won on the facts," that's some spin. Cope harder.
No prewritten notes - Clearly Biden could've used some sort of notes to keep him on track with his answers.
Not permitted to speak to staff - If Biden's staff could've spoken to him they may have been able to say something to change his approach, or at the very least made up some sort of emergency where he would've had to leave the debate early.
Kennedy was excluded - Having Kennedy on the stage would've made for a ready to go alternative to Biden for those voters and donors who are scrambling to distance themselves from Biden but also don't want to move towards Trump. Especially if he was able to stand toe-to-toe with Trump in the debate while Biden mumbled off to the side. A third candidate would've also meant less time for each candidate to speak which could've limit the damage Biden did to himself.
Remember, the government is supposed to be afraid of the people, not the other way around. For that reason, I am happy to help him to pay his legal fees, as I have for the NRA, Daniel Penny, Kyle Rittenhouse, and others.
https://youtu.be/WbfDt7NlCGQ?si=-1QUbY_a…
Any poster on here who claim to love the military and cherish those who serve or enlist (not the same thing), cannot possibly defend Biden or claim he won the debate when he denies that American armed forces have not died during his administration. That act itself shows him unfit for service as Commander-in-Chief.
"That's why he has been called 'genocide Joe'". False.
He was title genocide Joe by Hamas supporters looking to falsely frame the Israeli war against terror as a genocide against Palestinians. I note this because the truth matters.
Yeah, Trump lies a lot. More like he speaks what is convenient before he cares about whether or not it's true. You'll never hear him "circle back" in Jen Psaki corporate-speak. But what affects my life more:
"I never screwed a porn star" or "the laptop is Russian disinformation" / "the border is closed" / "I never discussed business with my son."
Biden should note that Americans have chosen private vs public impropriety for some time. Blaine vs. "Ma, ma, where's my pa?" Cleveland, for one. Even after all his sexual assault allegations, feminists lined up behind Clinton, one even saying she'd suck his dick for keeping abortion legal.
Of course it's genocide against Palestinians. The IDF has been targeting civilian infrastructure, including hospitals and universities. And let's not forget about food shortages, UN vetoes of ceasefires, etc. The propaganda wants us to believe Hamas is everywhere, even hiding under children's cribs.
It ceased being about a war against terror and freeing the hostages. It has became a war to completely destroy Gaza. Netanyahu does not want to end the war in Gaza and is now looking at Lebanon. Biden is complicit in all of this. Thus, he is "genocide Joe."
The fighting would end immediately, if those animals that kidnapped and raped Israeli citizens would return every one of their hostages, and put down their arms
Such a genocide that the Palestinian population has grown so much faster than the Israeli population. If Israel wanted to wipe out Palestine there wouldn't be one stone atop another anywhere in Gaza.
Frankly I'd say Israel has dithered too much already. Fuck Biden who's thinking more about the election than politics. Fuck the UN which lost any kind of moral credibility years ago.
Palestinians fucked around and are finding out.
Did you know that 72% of Palestinians supported the terrorist attack by Hamas that took place on October, 2023? Who voted the terrorists in?
Dems give more weight to the plight of the Palestinians actually means that as progressives we hate anyone who is successful and that means we hate Jews just as much as our socialist brethren, the nazis sis and do. You see all socialists are hypocritical bigots, which is why we emphasize diversity, just to make sure our hyposcrisy is consistent. Different mens the same. War is peace. Wish North Korea would test a nuke, on Gaza.
Though here skibum is aligned with Trump, whose campaign has said that the Democratic Party has become a full-blown anti-Israel, antisemitic, pro-terrorist cabal. Whereas the facts are Biden has supported Israel almost every step of the way in their effort to wipe out Hamas.
These absurd statements from the right are just more evidence of how far right populists have taken over the Republican Party.
If Biden and the ignorant racists called progressives, actually supported Israel, they would have let Israel spend 10 days bombing indiscriminately and the war would have ended, instead of pretending that the terrorist supporting civilians had an iota of importance. Biden got more Jews killed; more Palestinians killed. more sailors killed and empowered Iran because he is a pussy and a loser. He's the type of asshole who peels off a stuck bandage millimeter by millimeter, whining the whole time, instead of one quick yank.
The only good part is that as my expectation of everyone's longevity diminishes, I can go the club much more because Biden's economy is killing them and the money I have not only goes further, but there is more of it because I don't have to worry about living 25-30 more years.
Biden backed off his support of Israel to placate the America haters, both Islamists in Michigan and malcontented America hating green haired idiots. It's not that the whole left supports Hamas and hates America, it's that all the Hamas lovers and America haters have lined up on the left and Biden isn't backing them off. The progressives
On his best day, Biden was known as a party man and a mediocrity whose views shifted with party dogma. Now he's a walking corpse whose grasping family won't let him quit.
As his old boss used to say, don't underestimate Joe's ability to fuck things up.
Trump 2024.
Climate change and renewable energy are now mainstream issues. What else is left to scare people of the "radical left"? That they are anti-Israel, pro-terrorist? Hardly reflected in Biden's actions in the Middle East to date. That they want to make trans acceptance mainstream? Hardly a centerpiece of the Dem platform.
Creating an image of a scary monster on the left about to take over and destroy the country has been part of the Republican playbook for a long time. Critical thinking people will challenge themselves to understand to what extent this monster is real or imaginary (or at least exaggerated).
Were you able to keep a straight face when you typed "Creating an image of a scary monster on the left about to take over and destroy the country has been part of the Republican playbook for a long time"? Because that is exactly what the democrat party and liberal media have been screaming about Trump, GOP, and MAGA since 2016. He's a tyrant! He'll crash the economy! He'll start WW3! He's owned by Putin! Remember all that? Or how about the new "Renegade Court"? They're taking away our freedoms! Constitutional right to abortion stripped away? Sound familiar.
You are a hack. A hypocritical little hack. You're too damned dumb to smell the shit that the Biden Admin and liberal media are telling you to shovel. Wake up. You are a Mark 1 Model 0 useful idiot. Don't spend your life stuck on stupid.
Exactly! Couldn't have said it better!
Climate change is routinely the lowest priority among issues polled. Even those who think it's a priority know that subsidizing costal prog status symbol EVs aren't the way to go about it.
Anything short of encouraging Israel to finish the job is buying time for Hamas to regroup.
Racial and gender grievance is another backbone of the party. Biden certainly didn't choose Harris on merit. He tokenized KBJ before she was even nominated. Reparations in blue cities and states. Dems especially progs are willing to dig their fingers into any fault lines in order to win.
Biden himself called trans issues the civil rights issue of the day. Europe is starting to recognize "gender affirming care" (rofl) as ideologically driven child abuse. It's affirming to give an anorexic a gastric bypass too.
No need to create a monster, I just point out what's come out of their mouth. And yours. You're finna get your ass kicked, not just for being so out of step with America but for lying about the president's condition for the last 4 years.
Karma.
"@book guy Trump never "mounted an armed insurrection against the Houses of Congress in an attempt to overthrow a legitimate election by means of violence." Trump was never part of the riot at the capital. He told people who had attended his really to protest peacefully and patriotically. The group of anarchists and idiots who rioted at the capital was not affiliated with the Trump campaign. Your entire argument is predicted on a lie."
You're lying to yourself. Trump requested they go to the Houses of Congress. Trump suggested they arm themselves. Trump attempted to drive to the Houses of Congress to lead them in storming the building. Trump demanded that Mike Pence not certify the election. Trump rallied his riot on purpose. You can watch the films or you can lie to yourself.
"We are all going to go down there ..." If you need to lie to protect yourself from the painful cognitive dissonance of admitting your side unpatriotically attacked American peacekeepers and the houses of congress, you're doing a great job.
You might make a sensible case that this minor attack isn't within the definition of a real "insurrection" by pointing out (for example) how poorly organized it was, how there were no field generals directing troops to particular attack or defensive positions, how there was no supply depot, not centralized command or communications infrastructure. I'd agree, it's a pretty damn weak insurrection. So I'd simply reply, "OK fine, he organized a minor riot on the Houses of Congress to block an election's certification with violence." But you can't possibly pretend Trump didn't direct it. Watch the films, you idiot. Facts is facts.
First order of business is for Mr Biden to quit this race in as orderly and efficient fashion as possible.
Second is the Democratic Party Leadership needs to nominate a reasonable, centrist, electable, candidate to represent them in the general election.
My opinion is if that is done properly we can elect a president who will lead us forward and erase this sorry chapter from our history.
The real crime here is the choice we’re being forced to make, a choice between a criminal and an incompetent.
First, if anyone other than Harris replaces Biden, they lose access to a lot of dedicated Biden-Harris campaign funds. Second, can you imagine the uproar among the CRT party if someone jumps a black woman in line? Before anyone says Michelle Obama, she's untested and has repeatedly said she doesn't want to run.
The time for Democrats to find an electable centrist was over the last 4 years, and they refused. Now, with Trump’s sentencing pushed out to September, he not only gets a guaranteed couple more months on the campaign trail, but if he gets jailed, even more of an uproar. And with this last Supreme Court decision on immunity, you have the left openly declaring that Biden should have Trump assassinated.
Democrats are on absolute fucking tilt right now. I wish I could take more joy in that but this could get dangerous for everyone.
Trump would never be electable if a normal person was running. If they put up a reasonable candidate Trump is going to lose.
They're reduced to praying Trump self-destructs. Though the chance is well more than zero.
@twentyfive well said and I agree with most of what you wrote.
In addition to the media outlets discussing if not calling for Biden to step aside, including heavyweights like CNN and NYT, Biden's old hometown neighbor wrote a very well-written letter to Biden, which hopefully he reads. Calling for a brokered, open convention where the candidates make the case for themselves. I would support that. And I'll give the Republicans credit for having had their debates and process, even if Trump was the inevitable winner.
Opinion: Dear Joe, it’s time to go
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/06/28/opini…
https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/b…
I have to say that the amount of disloyalty being shown by Dems to their own sitting President is truly a sight to behold. I mean don't get me wrong, Dem voters have always been understood to be weak self-absorbed ankle biters who just want others to take care of them. But even by these exceedingly low standards the sped at which they turned on their own was remarkable.
Sorry to say folks, but for those of you who so desperately want Biden replaced, it looks like you're gonna have to dance with the one who brung you.
—
I don’t think it’s a stretch to debate politics here.
There’s a deeper discussion than “Orange Man Bad” or “Old Man has Dementia”
There’s a myriad of topics pertinent to clubbing
- Inflation. Let the fact that $50 for a three minute lap dance is reality in some places
-Immigration. Are Cubans, Mexicans and Brazilians changing clubs? Good or bad?
Probably more but tired of typing
How can anyone think Trump is the best Republican to be President? How is Trump going to magically undo all the economic effects of the COVID pandemic and the Russian invasion of Ukraine? By drinking diet cokes while he watches TV?
I’m of the opinion that it’s not a question of if, he’s going to quit, rather it’s when.
I can't stand the orange bad man and wish that any other Republican secured the nomination. But what should be scarier than Trump getting back into office is the utter weaponization of prosecutorial powers by Dems seeking to keep him out by any means necessary. Our legal system is just not supposed to be used like that.
I'd take the other side of that bet. Did you hear him last night during his ABC interview? And at his recent rallies? It's clear he has no intention of quitting and we're a mere 6 weeks from the Democratic convention and only 4 months away from the general election.
Trump is a fucking prick, but I'm afraid for what happens if he loses.
Yes yes agreed. Pathetic.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/08/politics/…
https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/08/politics/…
The funny thing is, after he sent that letter to Congress today and went on Morning Joe, the flood of hysterical articles about the need for him to quit, his obvious impairment issues, etc., suddenly stopped. In fact, CNN and Yahoo News already stripped them off their front pages, lol. I guess the Democratic Press Corps have received their new marching orders. 😉
This should be interesting.
Hell, maybe even KJP (aka 'Binder') was involved, since nobody in their right mind would hire that DEI freak after her demonstrated incompetence.
FFS, I hate having to defend the piece of shit president’s son, but have you ever heard of someone being indicted for tax fraud after they’ve paid all of their taxes, interest and penalties? Or being indicted on a gun charge for a gun that was never fired or used in a crime?
This coin has two sides.
I really don’t care what anyone says , I’m proud to say I’ll never vote for Trump, that doesn’t make me a liberal, I’m actually a centrist, you folks keep trying to move the guide posts, but it doesn’t matter, if you’re willing to ignore the facts. I’m not going to debate the merits of Biden, and if there’s anyone other then Biden who can win this election let me know how, and why, if I agree that’s who will get my vote.
Keep Trump out of the White House that’s my only goal.
The important point however is that, when he took office, nobody talked about Hillary again. It's one thing to chant, but another to act.
As far as the rest, you can't equate that basket of odds and ends moments with the completely out of bounds behavior by various Dem state and local prosecutors, nor with the NY judges who were such willing accomplices. Especially with what took place in NY.
A civil suit over a paperwork violation that should have been a wrist slap, with no victim to speak of since the loan was repaid on time and in full, turned into a mammoth penalty - basically a hand amputation ordered for a speeding ticket. The judge would have done even worse if an appeals court didn't signal that trying to liquidate Trump's entire enterprise wouldn't fly. Unbelievable.
Then there was the hush money payment that was morphed into a felony using novel legal gymnastics, aided by a judge who instructed a jury decide which felony was committed - again unbelievable. Worse though is that they prosecution couldn't even link Trump to the decision on how the payment was made, but of course the helpful judge also instructed the jury that they were allowed to make inferences.
Neither of the NY cases will likely stand on appeal, but they should scare anyone who believes that justice is supposed to be apolitical. This was a wild escalation of lawfare, but sadly not the end I suspect.
As for the hush money case, I said before it was like Jay Z in 99 Problems getting pulled over for going 55 in a 54. It’s still beyond the law. I agree that suit against Trump should never have been brought, but he was guilty and he knew what he was doing was wrong. Why else agree to pay $130k to Stormy and then pay a total that’s more than double, all so it wouldn’t be a check coming directly for Trump or his company going directly to Stormy? Does that sound like someone who believes what they are doing is innocent?
All Trump could be proved guilty of in the hush payment case was making a hush payment, which itself is not illegal. Whether he knew the details of how it was paid, and what his intent was in doing so, were all inferred thanks to a very helpful judge. This case will never survive appeal.
Now was he guilty in the loan paperwork case? I'd agree with that. But given the victimless nature of the crime, that should have been settled out of court for a fine. instead they treated a speeding ticket case like a grand larceny conviction, again thanks to a very helpful judge.
You seem not to understand the gravity of these lawfare escalations, but eventually you will. What happens to me, can happen to thee, when the shoe is on the other foot. Prosecutors and most especially judges are not supposed to behave like this and once it becomes acceptable, the rule of law loses the respect it needs to flourish.
Encouraging a mob to arm itself and storm the Capitol building is a crime. Duh.
Hopefully Trump will continue to exercise the same restraint when he's back in the WH. But if not, you can bet he'll use the ridiculous multi-pronged lawfare campaign waged against him as his excuse.
I blame McCarthy and McDonnell for this. They had the opportunity to convict Trump when he was impeached for trying to prevent Biden’s inauguration, but they would have risked being primaried. They instead just hoped he’d go away on his own. And now the joke is on all of us.
This argument is getting old, it's really time for new blood in the White House they're both too old, Trump is just as senile as Biden, and it's long past the time they should have been gone.
Where is the evidence of this ?
People who don’t respect/use “correct” gender pronouns should be subject up a $30k fine and 6 months in prison.
Delusional thinking by left wing terrorists. This is scarier than the rants of crazy orange man.
Now we have a vegetable with the symbolic title of President while a nameless, faceless invisible hand is running the country and running him, so he and Jill can enjoy the pomp and circumstance they believe they deserve.
If that's not abuse of power, what is?
You don't get to play the "both sides are equally culpable" card when one side has been pounding the shit out of it when another has not. Or when judges become active participants, as was all too obvious in the two NY cases. The multi-angle attacks against Trump were unprecedented. And it goes away when they stop doing it.
Heck, the NY AG Leticia James actually campaigned on the promise of prosecuting Trump, before she knew if any crime was actually committed. Just imagine that - a prosecutor in search of a crime to prosecute. Alvin Bragg was no doubt similarly motivated when he manufactured a felony out of a recordkeeping dispute - that had passed the statute of limitations incidentally. Neither could have succeeded without tremendous help from the judges involved, which is the scariest part of all to me.
Sadly, 25's simplistic and myopic attitude is all too commonly shared by the liberals who cheered this nonsense on: Whatever it takes to get the orange bad man is A-OK because he brought it on himself. But these issues are far bigger than Trump.
History may remember these historically corrupt prosecutions as a turning point in American jurisprudence.
I am seeing people arguing against a second Biden term (any democrat admin would merely be a fourth Obama term), for which the only realistic alternative is a second Trump term. The liberal response is the same denial, excuse-making, obfuscation, and "but Trump!" arguments we have heard since before 2016. Liberals, and you are libs, do not actually care about science and facts when these contradict their worldviews. Most are too frail to admit when they are wrong and take the red pill.
Let me leave you fellas to your obvious circle jerk-off session.
Both sides are going after the other. The difference is Trump committed crimes. To every one of the indictments Trump’s response has always been “lawfare” “rigged” or “persecution.” You know what he’s never said? “I didn’t do it.”
If the hush money payment wasn’t illegal, why pay $400k to conceal a $130k payment? If he declassified the presidential records, why not respond to National Archives and say “I have them, but they are declassified.” Why engage in a conspiracy to hide the documents and deny that you have them?
His excuses fall apart quickly. He had criminal intent.
He shouldn’t have been prosecuted in the two NY cases. Any good defense lawyer would’ve told him to settle/plea once he was sued/charged. He loves playing the victim.
I agree the NDA and hush money payment standing alone are not illegal.
Trump has stated several times that he is innocent of the charges. He entered please of not guilty. This is blatantly rigged, persecutorial lawfare. In the sexual assault case, the state legislature went back and changed laws and statutes of limitations specfifically to aid that civil suit in being brought. Despite the plaintiff's own contradictory statements, he was found guilty by a biased jury. The fraud case was also convicted by a biased jury where no crimes were actually committed. The "hush money" case was the penultimate demonstration of law fare with a biased jury, compromised judge, and corrupt DA manipulating and mutilating charges and courtroom instructions to fit a predetermined outcome. The correct term for Trump in each of these cases is "wrongfully convicted." If we were to use the liberal logic for celebrating Trumps conviction, that means that every black man lynched by every white mob and convicted by every white jury was in fact guilty and got what he deserved. The jury - in a courtroom or in the street- found him guilty and gave him justice on the wrong end of a short rope, right? Every Indian (feather-not-dot) killed by a cowboy or soldier was guilty of attacking American settlers -whether they did or not. They must have done it because they were punished for it. All of the Jews killed by the Nazis must have been money-grubbing seditionists, or they would not have been rounded up on trains and send to death camps, right? That's the liberal logic.
$400,000 was paid to the lawyer for legal fees. The convicted lying lawyer alleges that was to offset the taxes he would have to pay to collect his full reimbursement. Even if the lawyer was being honest, show me the crime? Stormy has testified verbally and in writing multiple times that she never slept with Donald Trump. She's perjured herself.
Trump did not engage in a conspiracy to hide documents never denied having them. He cooperated with the investigation every step of the way. They were much safer in a padlocked storeroom at Mar-a-lago than in Joe's garage and college libraries. Especially with Chinese-owned (and occasionally Ukraine-rented) Hunter snooping around.
The facts do not fit your chosen narrative, but that doesn't change what the truth is. It just means you refuse to accept the truth.
If you support Trump, you're a "cultist."
If you support Biden (or Obama), you're "factual," or "enlightened" or something.
Perhaps we need an Operation Warp Speed against Trump Derangement Syndrome.
Anyway, there’s a difference between saying “I didn’t do it” and pleading not guilty and you know it.
In the E Jean Carroll c, he presented no evidence. Did not call a single witness. You heard him on tape saying “I like to grab them by the pussy.” She testifies that he grabbed her by the pussy and he doesn’t get on the stand to deny it. Didn’t even go to the trial. It wasn’t a criminal trial. He could’ve testified and chose not to. But the jury was biased? He was accused of doing something entirely on brand and didn’t defend himself in a civil case. Be objective.
The story about the $400k in the Stormy trial by Trump makes no sense. Cohen was on salary. He was mad he got shorted on a bonus. That’s how corporate lawyers work. You know who sends bills? It’s outside counsel. Ever hire one? They usually send detailed bills. Then you have a Trump employee with detailed notes showing how the $400k was calculated. It had nothing to do with legal services. Again, Trump put on barely a defense. He put on that idiot that testified to one of the House committees during the trial to accuse Cohen of being a liar, so Trump’s knee jerk reaction is to bring him to court? He got skewered. That’s case number two where your innocent man put on a shitty defense.
The NY fraud case… wasn’t that the one where he chose his lawyer by how she drsssed on the golf course? The fake tits and puffed up lips? No judgment. She’s hot, but do I pick her to defend me in a case where liability had already been found and it was just to determine how many hundreds of millions I’d have to pay? NFW.
Telling Walt Nauta to move the docs before the FBI looked in the storeroom is a conspiracy. Multiply it 25x for all the actions he took and it’s 25 felonies. His lawyers denied that he had those docs. That’s on him. What’s your argument? That he didn’t know the government wanted them back? That he would’ve returned them if they said pretty please? Cmon man. Trump refused to return them when asked, when subpoenaed and when raided. Biden (and Pence) asked their people to search and when they found classified docs, they brought in DPJ/FBI to complete the search. That’s the same to you?
Your guy is an idiot, with bad judgment and a tendency to do crimey things.
it’s simple, if it bothers you it must be true!
For a "cult," you might want to ask why he's pulling away from your guy. Cults have squadrons of functionaries suppressing the truth, like that for 5 years your guy has been suffering from dementia (likely associated with Parkinson's) and the left has resorted to personal attacks to silence anyone who said it.
"Don't compare me to the almighty, compare me to the alternative."
I have every right to oppose Trump as strongly as you support him.
Go ahead and oppose Trump, I won't think less of you for it. I have plenty of thoughtful friends on the left.
But do try to make a better case rather than just venting your spleen. Serious cranky old man energy just like we're seeing from the White House these days.
Trump is attempting to connect Biden to the NY cases, but once again, it's just another con.
>Delusional thinking by left wing terrorists.
Sounds like a fringe activist. They don't represent most people on the left.
Anyone with children looking at what is going on in politics should fear for their future.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/…
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/…
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/05/nyreg…
Biden, Garland, and the whole of the Biden admin is engaged in prosecuting his top political rival. This is not America. This is a banana republic.
25 and hank claim to be Republicans but oppose every Republican initiative, support every leftist ideology, and even quote Don Lemon and Rachel Maddow verbatim claiming those quotes as their own. Those are RINOs, that is pure dishonesty.
I’ve voted for both parties , what I have said is I’ve probably voted for more Republicans than you.
It’s way past time for you to shut the fuck up, we’re all aware of how stupid you are.
Since when does anyone need your fucking permission to post, who here gives a flying fuck what you believe you little turd
Like I’ve said shut the fuck up you stupid little boy
When I blasted MSNBC, you sided with Random Loser, quoting Rachel Maddow, and defending had brave, beautiful, insightful, and other laughable garbage.
I have a photographic memory, but you can go and look it up. We all know you have no life and nothing else to do.
you are the spit-spewing old tard who loses his mind when I comment on one of "your" threads. I'll give you a clue: this is Founder's website. Anything we post on here becomes his IP. His threads. And clearly, you care very, very much about what I believe. You lose, again. Thanks for playing.
triggered little turd
Where is your honesty? Care to admit Trump either put on no defense or a shitty? No, you’d prefer to blame everyone else. Or the fact that he did all of those acts? That he refused court orders to return the classified docs and hid them from the FBI? He’s a liar and a cheat.
As for me being a RINO? Being a registered republican isn’t enough for you? How about the fact that in my decades of voting I’ve voted for only two democrats, Hilary and Biden. I’ve voted republican time and time again even though on some issues (abortion, 1st Amendment, gay marriage) I lean left. It just so happens those are the issues that come up frequently. Toss in the republicans trend away from fiscal responsibility and the USA being a leader of the free world, and you can add two more issues where we’ll disagree. I woulda’t even comment on the issues where I lean left here except for this place is otherwise an echo chamber and is boring if nobody points out another perspective. I just don’t call other people names while making my points.
Please present yourself to the neuroscience research department of any major university for study because to date there has been no evidence that "photographic memory" even exists.
A RINO is a registered Republican by definition. You voted for Hillary AND Joe? Then you are a RINO by definition. Plenty of card-carrying centrist democrats voted third party or skipped the presidential contests. Voting for Hillary and Joe underscores your very poor decision making. If you disagree with me on fiscal responsibility and America's place on the world stage, then you must be a big-government, tax and spend liberal and a globalist. Those are two more defining traits of a RINO. Thanks for proving my point.
Democratic Socialist or National Socialist Worker's Party are two groups who wanted freedom of hate speech for themselves, with no one being able to say anything in opposition.
Free speech is a Constitutionally protected right, and as Skibum points out it is the left who seeks to abridge and control this right. The left wants to control what you can say because that is how you control information and what people think. To lean left on the first amendment (really almost any of the original Bill of Rights) is to fail the most basic understanding of American history and civil rights.
Now, "left on the first amendment" is censorship of non-left points of view, hate crimes laws for not showing proper respect to the pride flag, and forcing religious groups to violate their conscience.
Thanks for the fuck you lol. First time I have seen it in writing today but have had it said to me twice already today lol.
And ‘mean tweets’? FFS, when will you MAGAs move past 2017? Nobody gives a shit about mean tweets. The intervening attempt to block the inauguration (among other things) has anti trumpers focused on substance.
At least in theory anyway. E.g. the democrats say another Trump presidency will be Armageddon but apparently can’t get their heads out of their collective asses to replace Biden on the ballot.
Also, why are you letting me push your buttons? Why are you expending so much time and energy to deny being labelled a RINO and hypocrit on such an inconsequential medium? Do you want to be like 25 when you are old and resentful with no family, friends, or life and have TUSCL be the sole source of your daily (anti-)social interactions? There is no website - insta, X, TUSCL, or reddit which replaces having a life and being out in the world. Yes, you can be a RINO and hypocrit out there or deny who you really are out there. Your call, but don't confuse this with anything that truly matters.
Colangelo and Bragg knew each other before Bragg was elected Manhattan DA. Bragg was looking to get a highly qualified attorney on his team, with extensive prior experience prosecuting Trump. There's no evidence of collusion with the DOJ or Biden. Try thinking more objectively instead of believing every right wing conspiracy theory.
Nope, not the federal classified documents case. Trump was given multiple opportunities to return all the classified documents, but basically gave the DOJ the middle finger. The case is legit, and could have been avoided, but Trump brought it on himself.
https://nypost.com/2024/07/11/us-news/bi…
https://youtu.be/MLgb32OajVE?si=6mWjAKI8…
https://youtu.be/BuNxFTKSjf0?si=J5Jz42TX…
Beware the damage a demented old narcissist with a chip on his shoulder can do.
Yet even if he knew the questions, his answers were longer and more developed than I expected, other than the couple times he seemed to go on a tangent and then oddly cut it off with, "Anyway."
If this were any other politician with full mental acuity, I'd give this performance a D. But given what we've come to expect from Sleepy Joe, I'd say it was a B-.
Also worth noting, although I couldn't see a teleprompter screen, his beginning speech clearly sounded like he was just reading it. They probably filmed it in such a way as to not let you see the prompter. That wouldn't have helped him on the question part (too much of a risk feeding answers that way) but still, you'd think he would just come out and talk about the summit without it being written for him.
Regardless, his better than expected performance puts the Dems in more of a pickle. Harder for them to justify his ouster, and yet he could easily do another faceplant on the next debate, and probably will.
The "tallest midget" award.
This isn't just about Joe, it's about the entire party apparatus concealing Joe for the last 5 years despite seeing the same things we saw, only unfiltered and more often.
If I were Biden (or any Democrat) I'd start with "look what we did to make the average person's life better." It isn't perfect, especially viewed in light of the debt it triggered (leaving us with the Sophie's Choice we have now between still-not-controlled inflation and rising unemployment) but it has tangible benefits that independents can see, like the cap on insulin pricing.
Trump isn't an ideologue, he's a pragmatist and negotiator, which means his views are subject to change. Trump also thrives on opposition and anger (his own or others'). If this were a "go positive" election, Democrats would cake-walk. But just like you can't resist scratching at that bug bite, Democrats can't resist scratching at Trump. He's the tabloid king, do you really think you can get down and dirty with that?
Oh and I'd scrap Biden ASAP, throw it all behind Harris, play on her prosecutor background, and kick progressives to the curb. Even Democrats, in guarded moments, say no way in hell Biden lasts another 4 years.
Her reputation as a prosecutor has been undermined by every statement she has made in the last 4 years when she became a knee jerk liberal.
New inflation numbers came out today and prices actually went DOWN last month. The signs of the improving economy are there. Leave it to dems to fuck up the message. You can’t TELL people they feel better which is what they’ve been doing to poor effect. The numbers are good to create hope and a light at the end of the tunnel. Morons.
Agree on your argument for Harris. “Do you want to vote for the prosecutor or the felon?” But they can’t crown her and hand her the nomination. They need to run a fuller process of 6-8 best candidates and somehow either need to get Big Gretch and/or Shapiro on the ticket to help in Mich or PA.
They’ll fuck it up.
Other thing is, I think Trump has been very cagey about his positions. He's a lot more disciplined than he was in 2020. He's distancing himself from the GOP's unpopular abortion position, and saying less outrageous shit than usual.
I saw the inflation numbers but it's still above target and now unemployment is rising. It's like squeezing a balloon. And 20% cumulative rise in the price level can't be wished away. Saying "inflation is down" is like saying you put out most of the fire you created--the damage has been done. The "corporate greed" argument is re-fucking-tarded when corporations have been profit-maximizing entities as long as they've existed. Trump has had a huge lead in approval rating on the economy, and Dems are reduced to saying you're too stupid to see how good we are.
Disagree on "crowning" Harris...I think it's their best bet, less than 4 months out from the election. Chaos helps no one. I know they talk about "democracy" and Republicans are questioning their commitment to it, but a political party isn't part of the American government. They can do what they please. If someone else gets the nomination, they'll have to define themselves before Trump can define them, and Trump defines his opponents very well. I've also heard that only Harris can access most of their campaign funds.
Democrats also talk about having a deep bench, but if they did, they wouldn't be running Biden again. Harris has not been a successful VP by anyone's definition. Whitmer has her COVID policies. Newsom has a state that everyone is moving out of. Shapiro is largely unknown. With their race fetish, they're talking about Hakeem Jeffries and Wes Moore, but they haven't distinguished themselves.
In any case, Trump is up 3, and that's about 10 points better than he was at this point in 27. I figure the electoral college is good for 2 points for the GOP.
The sad part is the draft dodger, who if he gets re-elected, will continue to gaslight, and steal from the taxpayers like he’s been doing.
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
More moronic right wing spin. Biden is one of the most publicly visible and scrutinized people in the world. Fox News et. al have been chomping at the bit to catch and publicize every unflattering comment and gesture Biden has made since he took office. We've all seen various examples over the years. Only difference is it became more obvious / worse recently.
Another desperate attempt from right wingers. Gaffes do not equate with lack of sound judgment or insanity. I'll still trust Biden's judgment far more than Trump.
Your right puddy no question about it, just like every other election campaign ever, there’s always something pops up, let’s see how they handle this, and keep in mind, the last mistake or surprise is when the election is won.
Just like Mrs Clinton in 2016, and Trump in 2020, between now and November there will be many unforced errors my bet is the last candidate to make an unforced error will be the loser.
And cool it with the wHaTaBoUt tRuMp. You can ditch Biden for someone who, even if I might not agree with them, might not have a first class ticket on the Parkinson's express. I'd rather have anyone but Biden running against Trump, because if a Democrat wins, at least our enemies won't sense blood in the water after 4pm EDT.
@25 - that's a truism. Of course anything can happen. But most surprises aren't good for the incumbent. An economic crash, a foreign crisis. Only surprise that would hurt Trump would be if he says something outrageous that isn't accounted for in his approval ratings.
The number of years between Abraham Lincoln’s second inauguration and Biden’s birth is less than Biden’s current age.
The constitution says the Vice President elect is inaugurated
Of course Biden probably isnt corrupt himself, even if he was when he was younger, hes not in his senses enough currently, to genuinely be corrupt. He obviously has people behind the scenes controlling and directing him. He gave a hilarious speech saying he might not walk like he used to.. might not talk like he used to.. but he speaks the truth! And the crowd erupted in cheers.
Trump making any outlandish lie for his oberzealous grifting personality is the more absurd asinine comment to be had. Really, like he was ever going to make them pay for it. We import cheap goods and services from them(Mexico), we already make them pay for doing business w/us. Look at the value of the peso over the last few decades…..
BTW what branch of the service have you served with ?
The economy is not wrecked, it is recovered. Historically low unemployment, strong GDP growth, inflation down to 3%, and btw last month prices on everyday goods and services actually FELL. The first time that happened in 4 years.
These and other endless right wing lies illustrate another aspect of this election - it's not just about defeating Trump but also defeating a party that has become distorted by MAGA extremism and morphed into the party of con, in the image of their cult leader.
For those still struggling economically - what's needed are more policies that help lower income families, not the rich. Dems are the superior choice here.
So there are multiple reasons to vote blue this year, it's not all about "Orange Man Bad".
Raising import tariffs across the board will be inflationary. In some cases, it will just me primarily more profit for the 1%, and lower quality goods and services. But in other cases, it could mean a better situation for lower income households. In the later cases, we should suck up the inflation.