Recommended podcast: The Trump indictment

@Electronman: "As a reminder, these are allegations and the defendant, Donald Trump, should be presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law."

Nope. Politicians and law enforcement are guilty until proven innocent. Since that's how they treat *us*.

“Innocent until proven guilty” is for the jury. The rest of us are free to speculate for fun.

The documents indictment looks like the proverbial open and shut case. Putin’s bitch was served with a court order demanding return of the records and instead of returning them, he took steps to hide them and had his attorneys sign inaccurate certifications that they’d been returned. Self inflicted, stupid and guilty.

The fake electors indictment contains damning facts. I don’t pretend to understand the criminal statutes so maybe some matter of law won’t be met and he gets off, but based on the facts in the indictment what the orange imbecile did should be criminal. If I had to choose on who is right on the law, my money is on Jack Smith.

But you can't see killer racks listening to a podcast, bummer.

For me, the basic defense for Trump is, there's a big percentage of people who talk just as much shit as he does. The difference is, the number of people who take his shit seriously.

Putin invaded Crimea when Obama was in office. Invaded Ukraine when Biden was in office and yet progressives. The most consistent liars on earth claim Trump was under Putins spell.

How is that a defense?

Because, when the government seeks to protect people from everything, that inevitably is going to be a totalitarian government. If we're going to have freedom, people have to be relied upon to protect themselves as much as possible. Functional adults should be able to protect themselves from such a blatant bullshitter.

And, yes, a lot of Biden's bullshit is pretty blatant too. That's why we the people have protected ourselves by establishing a system of government with checks and balances. Because, given the fallen nature of human beings, nobody is ever going to be totally bullshit-free.

I hate to do this twice in a short period, but Imma break character.

My question for y’all is this: why isn’t this in the politics room? Electronman, maybe you just messed up, but I think one of the best things founder did was to try to encourage folks to post political shit in the politics room.

It may seem odd for a guy pretending to be a lion to offer mental health advice, but I’m going to say one thing: too much thinkin’ about politics will make you frickin’ nuts. Exhibit A, B, C, … Z = Skifredo. Guy seems to be doing his two minutes hate 24/7.

I mean really, read Skifredo’s post. My issue is not the content, it is the fact that he seems to be on the verge of burstin’ a blood vessel. I’d suggest he smoke some weed and mellow out, but the guy claims to be stoned 24/7. Well….methinks the weed ain’t workin’

Seriously though, the last thing I want to focus on is the Trump trial. Trump is a big boy with a lot of money. I hear that he was even the president of the whole USA. He can take care of himself. He doesn’t need me to listen to a frickin’ podcast and write 52-page Mark-type essays about said podcast (though, to give Mark credit, he posts his manifestos in the politics room - go Mark!)

Put the politics aside. Have a laugh. Focus on boobies. And ass. And pussy! Err…now I feel a lion-y spirit taking over my body. Said spirit…it is…it is making me put on a stylin’ suit. And grab a bottle of drivin’ whiskey. Gonna hit the road in my Tesla. ROAR!!!

Good life advice. Be crazy, but not more crazy than a guy pretending to be a lion. Moderation is the rule of thumb.

The Bulwark is decidedly leftist and slanted throughout with opinion. They may say they are right-center, but that is obvious bullshit. No, if you support conservatism, Trump, or reporting free from media bias, I would not give them a subscription.

Will the jury be loaded with people that vote for the Democrats?

Two of the indictments are in Manhattan and Washington DC, so yes, they will be loaded with partisan democrat voters unwillingly to impartially consider any evidence that would exonerate the former President.

Agree with the lion, wrong forum.

Again.

I don't think real lions would drive cars, electric or otherwise. They'd have on of those Old West stagecoaches, pulled by a team of six intimidated wildebeest.

^ what about motorcycles? Do you think lions would drive those?

I agree it should’ve been posted in the politics forum. I almost exclusively look in the main feed which shows all the forums so it’s the same thing for me. I would like to be able to hide forums.

@ilbbanicnl

That’s not a defense to ignoring a court order nor conspiring to disrupt the electoral vote.

@real lions ride Hogs, lyins ride scooters hence the term sure thing scooter.

What court order did he ignore?

He never explicitly told anyone to riot. Strong evidence he was derelict in his duty to stop the rioting. But, afaik, dereliction of duty is only a crime for military members. Not for anyone in LE, including the President.

The funny thing is, the Electoral College was created exactly with the idea of avoiding the selection of the President by direct popular vote. We're mad because we've got this duck, and Trump was trying to get it to quack.

It Trump had told Pence to go rob a bank, that would be conspiracy to rob. Robbery is explicitly against the law, with spelled out penalties. The law says the VP should preside over the counting of electoral votes. It doesn't explicitly say that arbitrarily declaring the vote to be deadlocked is a crime. If he'd done that, it would have gone to court, and almost certainly would have been declared illegal. But losing a civil court case doesn't make you a criminal, just does not work that way.

What I really don't get is how Trump beat that case where he was declaring a low value of properties for taxes, and a high value for getting loans. That seems much more obviously a crime (fraud).

“declaring a low value of properties for taxes, and a high value for getting loans. “

If Trump was convicted on this, they’d have indict every property investor in America.

A subpoena is a court order. He violated by not returning the docs but still would have been fine if he eventually returned them, but instead he conspired with with guy who brings him his diet cokes to hide them from his own lawyers. It’s extremely stupid but they have him dead to rights.

You should read the latest indictment re Jan 6. It has nothing to do with the riot. It’s focused on him sending fake electors to prevent the certification of the true votes. It’s much easier to prove than whether the dumbass incited a riot. They also aren’t charging the 6 co conspirators (yet). I believe they are streamlining the case to try to get a trial before the election.

They never brought the case about him lying on his tax returns. Instead, NY went after him for the Stormy Daniels payment. That’s the one case I agree is completely politically motivated and shouldn’t have been brought.

I look forward to the end result

Several comments:

Point taken about posting this in the political forum. My mistake.

@Georgemicrodong: The US justice system is better than many other countries, but there are so many examples where accusations lead to serious consequences for the accused (Kevin Spacey is a recent example) even if the accusations are not proven in a court of law. Are the justice system processes and protections applied evenly? No, but I wish they were.

@rickthelion: Nice to see you breaking free of your lion role. I find your posts as Ricktheperson, more interesting than your posts as Rickthelion. I agree with your aversion to politics but our daily life, including our mongering life, is impacted by political decisions so I have a hard time burying my head in the sand when values that are important to me (liberty, self-determination free speech, due process) are threatened. My values may not correspond with your values but we should all be vigilant for threats to our values.

@ilbbanaicnl (hope I spelled this correctly). Have you read or listened to the indictment. The evidence for what happened is based on text messages, emails and Trump's own public statements. The accusations and evidence go well beyond the the alleged conspiracy in the January 6 riots. If there is evidence that laws were broken, should Trump (or any US citizen, including Hunter Biden?). be held to the same level of accountability, and with the same rights as others?

@gammanu95. Does it really matter whether the interview was linked to Bulwark or to Fox News. It is still the same indictment.

On a side note, if you listen to the pod cast, it was an AI generated voice. Wow! Now I see why the actors and screen writers are so concerned about their long term livelihood.

I could never smoke enough crack to think everyone's going to have the same rights, or be held to the same level of accountability. I'm not a legal expert, nor do I have much faith in the legal system. Whether, morally, Trump is significantly more deserving of prison than Biden or (either) Clinton, I can't really say. Even though I voted for Biden and both Clintons.

Is anything Trump is charged with worse than what he did after the 1/6 rioting started? By inaction, he prevented an effective response. Just like the police commanders at Uvalde. And that was not considered a crime under the law. Was anything Trump did ever in his life worse than W's Iraq War or LBJ's Vietnam War?

If trying Trump will cause Republicans to pick a better leader, that would be nice. If Biden's failings as a parent cause Democrats to pick a better leader, that would be nice too.

The Capitol police force is fiercely controlling of security at the Capitol. The President has no control over that. At the time, the police reported to Nancy Pelosi.

Trump offered them 10,000 national guard for 1/6 and Pelosi turned him down.

What do you mean “ what he did after 1/6 rioting starting “ ?

@ilbbaicnl

You’re trying to tell a story keep looking at “is it better or worse” than something else. Ideally, the application of law is consistent but in this instance it’s not the forest but the trees that are important.

The orange idiot has been charged with specific crimes based on specific facts that are laid out in the three indictments. It doesn’t matter what Hunter Biden or Hillary Clinton did. All that matters is whether the prosecution can prove those facts and whether those facts are criminal. That’s it.

Read the indictments.

The latest news is that Jack Smith apparently withheld evidence from the Trump attorneys. Often, that would result in charges being dismissed. We’ll see.

“A federal judge issued a ruling ordering Donald Trump to respond to a protective order filed by the Justice Department that would block the former president from sharing details of evidence from his Jan. 6 criminal case proceedings.”

It wouldn’t surprise me if the Judge uses this as an excuse to put Trump in jail until the trial ( next year ).

Mark94: "Jack Smith apparently withheld evidence from the Trump attorneys. Often, that would result in charges being dismissed." Not sure what the source of this "news" is, but a federal prosecutor is under no obligation to share any evidence with a target of a criminal investigation until after he/she is indicted, and even then the disclosure obligation is not instantaneous. At this moment, the government is seeking a protective order that will prevent Trump from using the "discovery" material his lawyers will eventually receive to attempt to intimidate the witnesses against him. His lawyers will receive nothing until the Court decides on the request for the protective order. Given the current timeline laid out by the court, that should be in about two weeks.
Those who say that the charges in the "January 6" case and the "Mar a Lago" case are "partisan" are 100% correct. 100% of the witnesses in those cases are Republicans.

>Not sure what the source of this "news" is

Mark is a prolific copy and paster from his "reliable sources" = posters he trusts on X and Truth Social

I've been paying less attention to day-to-day politics lately so I won't pay attention to the Trump indictment. Things are going to continue to get worse. Eventually, the ruling elites will be discredited. When that happens, you may see relatively quick changes like the ones seen as the Marxist run Soviet Union ended. I'm 67 and this will likely be after I'm gone. Even though I won't see it, I'm pretty sure it will happen. The system we have now is unsustainable in the long run.

Sorry but stuff like "conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding" seems ambiguous to me. Like maybe you could get charged with that if you farted walking into the post office when they were raising the flag at opening time. Or the other one, "conspiracy against the right to vote and to have one's vote counted". Hello, Biden's President. Trump effectively ended up doing nothing. Meanwhile, it's well know that some people have to wait much longer to vote than others. To the point where, there's still a big line at the closing time of a polling place, and the people in line are told, sorry, go home. That's what effective conspiracy against the right to vote looks like.

I mean, suppose nicespice went into a 7-11 and demanded a free slurpee, cause it's really hot, and the boomers all caused Global Warming before she could even vote. That's probably about as strong a legal theory as the ones Trump was using about the electoral vote casting/counting process. But even so, 7-11 can only tell nicespice to fuck off. They can't get her convicted of conspiracy to steal a slurpee.

^^ilbbaicnl^^ If you are in line when voting hours close, you vote. Nobody tells you to go home. Long lines at polling places are still a problem, though, because it discourages people from exercising their franchise. It is particularly a problem if the polling places with long lines are disproportionately in areas where particular voting blocs are located

The funny business that may have stolen the 2020 election took place in a handful of blue cities.

When improprieties were suspected before the election, the legal argument was that no harm had taken place yet. When improprieties were suspected after the election, the “ election denier” label became a weapon to shut down investigations.

In Phoenix, it took a couple years to uncover what really happened. The law mandates that signatures on mail in ballots be matched against drivers licenses. Instead, over 100,000 ballots had zero signature checking. Nearly all had no signature or just a squiggled line. Biden won by 10,000 votes in Arizona.

The only way Biden will be defeated in 2024 is if measures are taken in these half dozen cities to prevent wide scale fraud.

Mark ape, you disappoint me. This rick defended you by sayin’ that y’all write crazy long political manifestos but you at least post ‘em in the politics room. I started a thread there and you can continue the discussion on it:

https://tuscl.net/discussion/83299

And now for something that is actually interesting. 25-Ape brought up scooters. Did I ever tell y’all damn dirty apes about my visit to England where I decided to tour the country on a frickin’ Vespa? So if you see a photo of a lion wearing a zoot suit and ridin’ a Vespa that is likely to be yours truly.

Discuss. ROAR!!!

Here is another interesting topic.

This rick decided to start an ant farm because I like to watch the lil’ guys work and move their larvae around and shit like that. Anyhoo, I decided to put some of the Froot Loops cereal in there (and yes, fruit is spelled with two o’s when it is in loop form).

I figured they’d feed it to their queen or engage in gladiatorial combat over it or some shit like that. But they seem to have started worshipping the Froot Loops. What is up with that?

See: more interesting that talkin’ ‘bout Trump and indictments and shit. I’ve got tons of shit like this. Some of them even happened. Others are just alcohol fueled hallucinations. Who the fuck knows which is which? ROAR!!!

^ Have you ever put Jack in your fruit loops, it makes cereal fun to eat while scooting around on a Vespa.

The ants are onto something. Foot Loops '24! Make America hyper and have lots of cavities, instead of being a total shit show.

Did you only need one wildebeest to pull the Vespa?

Good question 25-Ape. Now, this rick doesn’t actually eat the Froot Loops because they are crap food. Not to mention the fact that I’m a frickin’ carnivore.

That said, I have marinated wildebeest meat in Jack many times. Good eatin’. Hmm..maybe wildebeest loops could replace bacon for breakfast. I always felt bad about eating pig meat because some of those guys really know how to party. I’ve never met a wildebeest that knows how to party.

ROAR!!!

Trump took classified and top secret documents in violation of the Espionage Act. When asked to return them, he refused. The government had no choice but to get a subpoena and seize the documents.

The question now is why did Trump refuse to return the documents. Was he planning to sell the classified documents to Putin or was he just going to give them to his Russian master?

Ehhh. "Innocent until proven guilty" has nothing to do with public opinion. We're free to analyze the evidence that has been given, review dockets,
and make our own observations and conclusions either way.

I think a lot of people think "innocent until proven guilty," or the presumption of innocence, means we can't look at someone under criminal scrutiny and form an educated opinion on whether or not we believe they're guilty or not guilty. For example, Charles Manson plead Not Guilty. Did people generally think at that time, that because he plead "not guilty," that he was an innocent man? Fuck no.

The presumption of innocence (or, "innocent until proven guilty"), only means that the burden of proof is on the PROSECUTION and not the defendant; the prosecutor(s) have to convince the entire jury, beyond a reasonable doubt, that a defendant is guilty. Trump has to prove very little. The burden of proof belongs to the prosecution, not him. That's what "innocent until proven guilty" means.

I think things are looking very bad for him; I see many convictions coming his way. Whether he will ever take a plea deal is beyond me. He's so deluded AND so used to being surrounded by YesMen that even if his lawyer said, "you need to take this five year plea or you will get a 40 year sentence," he'd probably say, "no, I can do whatever I want," and *actually believe that* even after the sentence is handed down.

^anyone wondering why she failed at her "legal career" has had their questions answered.

Without listening to the evidence admitted at trial and hearing the instructions to the jury on which law to apply and how to apply it, no one can form an educated opinion. The trial is the education, not the charges and not what anyone reads in the news.
Trump does not have to prove very little. Trump has to prove absolutely nothing.
Presumption of innocence simply means that any defendant charged with a crime anywhere in United States Territory until found guilty. It is not a right everywhere.
The charges in New York are ridiculous and the way this has been handled by the Ministry of Truth, oops The Justice department has been tragic. The single finest thing Mitch McConnell ever did in his entire life was to make sure that progressive lying rat Merrick Garland never had a chance to get onto Scotus. I look at the FBI as even bigger scum. I hope the Republicans don't act the same as the progressive enemies of America and impeach senile thug Joe, and please nominate a sandwich before Donald shitbag Trump. Fucking scumbag New Yorker.

"^anyone wondering why she failed at her "legal career" has had their questions answered."

Everything I said was true, to the extent that you didn't even refute anything I said and instead had no choice other than a measly ad hominem attack on my "legal career" which you know nothing about AND was in no way a "failure."

I'd tell you more about my actual career if you weren't so oddly infatuated with me. But I'll let you know my non-legal career has paid off so much that I would bet my LIFE that my house is nicer than yours. Oh and it's sitting on over nine acres. The attached garage is only a three car, but since I also have a tractor with a backhoe, a UTV, and a zero turn lawn mower (you know, for all my acreage), along with my cars, it's being converted into a six car garage that the inground pool I just had installed will be connected to, once the architectural work making my pool an indoor with temp control and a sauna is completed.

Yeah, I think I ended up with the right career, you massive geriatric ballsack.

We know from the Russia hoax that the DOJ and FBI cannot be trusted. The level to which they are politicized is shocking.

In my mind, the ferocity of the multiple indictments of Trump is more proof of the corruption of our legal system. The DOJ and FBI have lied to take out Trump for years but we’re supposed to believe them this time ?

@gammanu95: "^anyone wondering why she failed at her "legal career" has had their questions answered."

So exactly what facts did she present that are wrong? The statements about presumption of innocence are *exactly* correct.

Whether they are *applied* in all cases is a separate issue.

^ @GMD
That addresses my point that moron is a troll, that’s all you need to know, I remember him calling Nina racial slurs because he’s just a bigoted loser.

It is a waste of time and energy to interact with twentyfive. He is a narcissist; lacking any self-awareness, shame, or regret.

^ how genuinely stupid

Do not be mislead by twentyfive's jealousy and resentment. He is a demented child, frightened and confused by the world. He tempts us to treat him with scorn and contempt, but really deserves only pity and neglect.

^ how genuinely stupid