Dancer's Ethical Obligations . . .

Let me summarize the argument above. "Should haves" 1-11, "Dos": "For the most part I don't think dancers have any ethical obligations", "Should have" again: "and it is [no obligations], imo, better that way."

So, what are you saying? Obligations or no obligations?

Just a little help to keep your writing "on" (as opposed to "off") :)

BTW, thank you for giving my question to David in the thread "SC and the changing role of women" a life of a dedicated thread! :)

Depends on the reader. :)

"Dos"?

I think writing is a little like wine tasting. :)

slate.com

"Dos" = what is actually happening in reality. In this case it is your believe that the dancers have no ethical obligations.

So, Jab, Obligations (1-11, "personal biases") or not Obligations "imo, its better that way (that the dancers, in reality, have no ethical obligations). What exactly are you arguing here for?

I like JaBlake's list, though nice as it would be, in a perfect world, I don't see many dancers feeling ANY obligation, much less those which he listed.

Personally, I think if I could magically implant one thought or attitude into all dancers' minds, it would be a good conscience.

I'm not saying that they should not practice Stripper Shit or Super Stripper Shit, but if they had a good conscience, there wouldn't be any excessive dance counts, for one thing. Although that's not really a prevalent problem, at least based upon my own experiences. (I think I've had maybe 4 or 5 dancers try that on me... actually, I can only remember one, but surely there were more)

We ALL know that it is the dancer's job to provide a fantasy for their customers; to make them feel desirable - to give the customer the illusion that the dancer is attracted to him and just can't keep their hands off them, etc. Not only is that basically the way they earn their money, it is what WE want from them, when we walk into a strip club. Typically, it's a "buyer beware" attitude that prevails in the club. Even the majority of customers feel that it is up to US to keep a firm grasp on reality.

However, I feel that a good conscience should kick in when it becomes obvious that a customer is having difficulty separating the fantasy from the reality. A dancer - especially a very skilled dancer - should be aware of how powerful her SS can be. We've all witnessed, and have discussed this in great lengths on this board. There are times when, even an experienced clubber who is well versed in the potential hazards, can be convinced into believing that there are feelings developing.

In such a case, she should in some way or another - even at the risk of losing his business, remind him that there isn't as much going on there as he might think.

THAT sort of thinking is unfortunately quite rare in the business. I know there are dancers out there who are very up front about those things and very open about what is and is not going on. (notably there are a few such dancers on this board like MIDancer and EvilCyn)

My ATF, as best as I can tell - so far - is also of that ilk. I knew from a fellow TUSCLer, that a few years ago Miss ATF had a particular customer who came into the club to see her ALL of the time.. like every day. After Miss ATF and I started getting to know each other pretty well, she "confessed" to me about this guy. I'm not real sure why she brought it up - I certainly didn't ask about it, nor would I ever imply that I heard that sort of info from another customer. At the time, I took it as a warning of sorts.

She proceeded to tell me that this customer came in EVERY day to see her, and had given her quite a bit of money. I don't know how long this continued, but she told me that once she knew that he had developed feelings for her, she sat him down and told him point-blank, (and I paraphrase) "You are a really nice guy and I like to spend time with you, but you have feelings for me, which I do not - and cannot - have for you. Please do not come back to see me. If you come back into the club, I will not spend any more time with you." She said that she felt really bad breaking his heart, but she knew that she would feel even worse if she were to let things continue. He continued coming back for several weeks, trying to get her attention and to get her to spend time with him, but she "stuck to her guns" and did not give in. Eventually, he moved on.

Again, I took that as a warning, insinuating that if I were to develop feelings for her which could not be returned, she'd cease spending time with me.

I really admired that in her, and that is one of the many things that sets her apart from other dancers. As a sidebar, I've kept that thought in the back of my mind. In my thinking, after having disclosed to her on many occasions that I have feelings for her, and she (so far!) has not put an end to things, that would imply that there is at least a chance that she could return those feelings. (yeah, it's a bit of a jump, but I think somewhat valid) That remains to be seen, but our "relationship" has come to a point where in the not-so-distant future, we will have "the dispositive talk".

1. Don't over count dances.

No problem.

1. Don't lie about mileage.

No problem.

1. Don't lie about OTC.

Don't do it; so, again, no problem.

1. Don't piss on a customer who is trying to save your time.

No problem whatsoever.

1. Breath mints please!

This is an "ethical" obligation? I try my best, but I make no promises about my breath.

1. Please take guilt out of your arsenal of weaponry unless you have starving children at home who are starving because you're broke.

No starving children, so no problem there, either.

1. Recognize customers do have preferences that may not be rational.

If their irrational to the point of unnaccaptable, I walk.

1. Recognize customers may not share your cultural values.

If those cultural "values" include disrespecting me in any way, I walk.

1. Repeat several times a day if I walked in their shoes (same body, mind, experiences, etc.) then I might be just like them.

I don't excuse bad behavior from men. I expect and demand better than that.

1. Link with No. 9 do try and excuse bad behaviour if possible or at the very least don't let it eat at you!

See above.

1. Linked with No. 9 & No. 10 do try and identify with your customer.

If possible, I will do so.

Hi MIDancer,

Yes, it is an ethical obligation in that a dancer (or customer) could be causing extreme pain! ;) It is also a matter of opinion. One dancer pointed that my breath was bad--garlic breath. Other dancers who I did buy dances from and those that didn't couldn't smell anything. The customer next to me said he couldn't smell anything, but that he had a poor sense of smell. I think the complaining dancer had a point. I do like garlic. :)

You meet this super hot dancer and her breath is just nasty and it is like damn that is depressing. Fortunately it doesn't happen too often, but it seems like the dancers I like have bad breath more often than the less attractive dancers.

"'Dos' = what is actually happening in reality. In this case it is your believe that the dancers have no ethical obligations.

So, Jab, Obligations (1-11, 'personal biases') or not Obligations 'imo, its better that way (that the dancers, in reality, have no ethical obligations).' What exactly are you arguing here for?"

I just set out a list of my biases that I proposed as a list for a Dancer's Ethical Obligations. As much as I might like my biases to be considered law or ethical obligations the reality, imo, is that it is better for the dancer to dance to her own little drummer. :) Ideally that little drummer would be telling her to try and spread happiness and good deeds, but ever once in a while use the double barrel shotgun or a few F16s. :)

I generally don't like stealing, for example. But a dancer may feel well within her rights to steal from a customer left, right, and center if she knows the customer is a crook that preys on the weak or stupid. IOWs, don't feel bad about giving a slime ball a taste of his own medicine especially if it puts money in your pocket or those of others.

"9. Repeat several times a day if I walked in their shoes (same body, mind, experiences, etc.) then I might be just like them.

I don't excuse bad behavior from men. I expect and demand better than that."

It's not just men. I don't know if you have women customers, but they are capable of bad behaviour too. Also, it is that old saying one man's poison is another man's pleasure. Anyway, my 2 cent opinion is to try and excuse everybody's bad behaviour men or women--try and be understanding. Dancer is acting like an asshole? Well, I try and remember she might have been dealing with shit all day and is just venting. Anyway, I just try and avoid confrontation and hope she solves her problem. Some women act like total witches because that is what they were taught. I excuse that also because I generally don't like imposing my idea of what is right on other people.

I remember this communist lady from years and years ago who believed the government had the right to dictate all manner of morality for the greater good. I said yes, like women have to be bare foot and pregnant . . . You start forcing or demanding your moral bs, then don't start crying when some Christians start using the government to ram their filth down your throat. Fair is fair. And, she is like my beliefs are good beliefs. I say I got big news for you: Many of those Christians who wish to use the government as their bully boy feel the same way. I guess whoever has more guns and is willing to use them is right. :)

Interesting use of the word "ethics". At the start of the list you are asking dancers not to act like assholes. At the end of the list you are asking dancers to be understanding when customers sometimes act like assholes....

I've never had a problem with any of these so-called ethical obligations. Generally, a stripper who needs to be told of her obligations isn't the kind who will ever fulfill them. Either I choose strippers who don't violate them or they don't matter to me.

1. Don't over count dances.<

Not an issue for me. Rarely encounter it, and when I do, I only pay for the correct count.

1. Don't lie about mileage.<

Not an issue. I never ask about mileage beforehand, and when promised, I don't pay attention. I believe it when I see it (and feel it).

1. Don't lie about OTC.<

Ditto.

1. Don't piss on a customer who is trying to save your time.<

Not an issue. I let strippers manage their own time.

1. Breath mints please!<

I bring my own breath mints.

1. Please take guilt out of your arsenal of weaponry unless you have starving children at home who are starving because you're broke.<

Falls under the non-ethical rule: don't bore me with personal chat unrelated to your fantasy role. Besides, guilt only becomes a weapon if the customer wants to play white knight. I don't.

1. Recognize customers do have preferences that may not be rational.
2. Recognize customers may not share your cultural values.
3. Repeat several times a day if I walked in their shoes (same body, mind, experiences, etc.) then I might be just like them.
4. Link with No. 9 do try and excuse bad behaviour if possible or at the very least don't let it eat at you!
5. Linked with No. 9 & No. 10 do try and identify with your customer.<

All of 7-11 are for hyper-fragile customers who look to strippers for approval. I'm not one of them. I look to strippers for sexual entertainment and low morals. Questionable ethics may come as part of the package, so I don't put anything on the line I can't easily give up and forget about.

eth·i·cal

1. pertaining to or dealing with morals or the principles of morality; pertaining to right and wrong in conduct.
2. being in accordance with the rules or standards for right conduct or practice, esp. the standards of a profession: It was not considered ethical for physicians to advertise.
3. (of drugs) sold only upon medical prescription.

dictionary.reference.com

Hi Yoda,

I don't really care for ethics much or at least how I've seen it advocated. Someone else may have a list of ethical obligations that is very different. So, I guess we take a vote to see who's right or righter? :)

Is there a conflict with asking dancers not to be "assholes" and also asking them to try and be understanding if the customer is acting like an "asshole"?

"Generally, a stripper who needs to be told of her obligations isn't the kind who will ever fulfill them."

Hopefully, strippers learn and their learnt lessons might earn them your business while not losing more business than they gained. :)

Hello again Yoda,

For whatever reason your post reminded me of the old saying: Do as I say not as I do. I hated that saying growing up. Sure enough I used it in trying to give good advice to a neighbor child. I'm not sure what the advice was maybe something like don't break the law or look both ways when crossing the street. It was pretty standard advice that adults bestow on children. So when I gave the child the Do as I say blah blah line he asks Why not? Confidently, I say you don't want to end up like me do you? Unfortunately and surprisingly, the child said yes. :( Fortunately, the child's father was an excellent role model and I pointed out all the wonderful things about his dad. That did seem to work.

">7. Recognize customers do have preferences that may not be rational.

8. Recognize customers may not share your cultural values. 9. Repeat several times a day if I walked in their shoes (same body, mind, experiences, etc.) then I might be just like them. 10. Link with No. 9 do try and excuse bad behaviour if possible or at the very least don't let it eat at you! 11. Linked with No. 9 & No. 10 do try and identify with your customer.<

All of 7-11 are for hyper-fragile customers who look to strippers for approval. I'm not one of them. "

Hi chandler,

I wonder how you came up with that? 7-11 is more geared to helping the dancer. For example, No. 7 states: "Recognize customers do have preferences that may not be rational." This is somehow looking for dancer approval? LOL! Naw, looks like you're projecting. Or, No. 8 "8. Recognize customers may not share your cultural values." Again, that is more geared to the dancer who gets all bent out of shape because the guy is an asshole or at she perceives him to be an asshole. A couple of time I've done what some muslims consider to be totally disgusting--one time it was picking up the man's shoes and bringing them inside. That upset the particular muslim that I was dealing with and he let me know that his shoes were unclean, blah, blah, blah. If a dancer recognizes that not every customer is going to understand or accept her cultural values, then it is generally better for everyone, imo. Same deal with No. 9 that states: "Repeat several times a day if I walked in their shoes (same body, mind, experiences, etc.) then I might be just like them." Nothing to do about seeking dancer approval---NOT that I see anything wrong with a customer that is into for any number of reasons. That is a whole thread or several threads of discussion. :) I don't think 10 and 11 need to be restated, but again it is really more for the dancer. Feel free to twist or interpret them any which way you so desire. People do disagree all the time. :)

"Is there a conflict with asking dancers not to be "assholes" and also asking them to try and be understanding if the customer is acting like an "asshole"?"

Depends, if you are guilty of both then yes, it's called being a hypocrite....

Hi Yoda,

Oh really, now?

hyp·o·crite

–noun 1. a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
2. a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, esp. one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.

dictionary.reference.com

Not even a little bit, imo, Yoda. See I could believe that marijuana is the evil of all evils and beg the U.S. government to make it a death crime to protect the people. At the very same time I could admit to smoking marijuana and breaking god knows what laws that are already in place. It wouldn't make me a hypocrite in the least under that scenario.

Now, if I started yapping for the U.S. government to make "evil" marijuana a death crime for sellers or users or buyers to protect the people when in fact I actually believed that marijuana wasn't "evil" at all, then that would be hypocritical.

Do you see the difference? In the first scenario I'm using "evil" marijuana while at the same time begging the U.S. government to make it a death crime. Even though I'm using "evil" marijuana, I actually believe it is evil and wonderful government needs to employ some good all old fashioned terrorism to stop "evil" marijuana from hurting people.

In second scenario, I'm also advocating that "evil" marijuana be made a death crime. However, I don't believe marijuana is even a little "evil." That is hypocritical.

Here is another example that might be a little easy to understand. I think consuming vast amounts of French fries is very unhealthy. And, lecture children on all the health problems consuming vast amounts of French fries may cause and I sincerely believe what I'm telling the children. A week later the children see me eating 50 orders of French fries with absolute glee---even better than sex! One brain dead child calls me a hypocrite. I say, Say, what? The child explains that I don't really believe consuming vast amounts French fries is very unhealthy. I laugh and reply, Of course I do believe it is very unhealthy you little retard. Did it ever occur to that I'm weak and don't want others to destroy their bodies the way I am? I need federal legislation to protect me from french fries! :)

Keywords in my cited definition are "pretend" and "feign." I'm may ask people to please not act like an asshole even though I'm the biggest asshole in the world! As the world's biggest asshole, I feel that I can speak with authority that it isn't all it is cracked up to be and being a nice person is the path to travel. IOWs, I ain't "pretend" or "feign" nothing. I'm being 100% real. :)

jablake: You have to EARN respect; you have to give it in order to get it. If I feel disrespected in any way by a customer, I will be gone from his table or lap faster than lightening and on to my next prospect. I will NOT sympathize or empathize with someone's bad behavior.

Hi MIDancer,

I wasn't thinking about respect especially not for bad behaviour. Some people would think that a woman telling me that I'm too short for her is "bad behaviour." That is a matter of opinion. Being short I happen to appreciate it when a woman makes it clear why I'm getting kicked to the curb. Anyway, probably whatever she told be I would try and see it from her POV. A super hot black dancer told be just didn't like (or hated?) whites and thus refused to dance for me. Some people would consider that "bad behaviour."

Feel free not to see or sympathize/empathize with someone else's bad behaviour. I truly believe that it does a disservice to yourself, but heck I could definitely be wrong about that since I'm not you. Just as eating peanuts or walking is healthy for most people doesn't mean those activities are healthy for all people. To sympathize/emphathise with another's bad behaviour may just be the wrong course for you. Leaving his table or lap sounds like a good course action, also, btw, imo. :)

A couple of heroin addicts (one female, the other male) told me independently that they strongly supported the government's war on drug dealers (especially) and drug users. Both said that they had tried to quit more than a few times, but were just too weak. Both looked bad to some degree. The girl, very attractive, had needle marks all along her arm and appeared to be in extreme pain because she needed a fix. The guy showed me where he had, had major surgery supposedly due to his drug abuse--I think it was on his liver. Anyway the scar from what he said an operation looked gruesome. :(

So if these 2 drug addicts genuinely condemn drug use (especially heroin) while using heroin, then you'd consider them hypocrites? They aren't "pretending" or "feigning" anything although their actions may be viewed as being in conflict with their beliefs. In short, they don't meet the definition of being hypocrites nor even the sense of the word.

Now, if these 2 drug addicts yapped about the evils of drugs and believed the exact opposite that would be a different ball game . . .

Oh, how could I have forgotten! I had some meetings with a husband and wife who were both junkies (heroin addicts) the husband far moreso than the wife. Both of them detested the government every which way and wanted all "recreational" drugs legalized. Refreshing. The husband wasn't in too good a shape overall, but seemed very happy. The wife was in surprisingly good shape and also a happy person. They had a beautiful little girl who was only like 5 years old. It was sad seeing her growing up in those surroundings even though both her parents seemed to love and care for her.

Both parents claimed the heroin had "saved" them. That before the "wonder" drug their lives were just horrible. I was looking at "home" that their were living in and thinking it looks pretty horrible right now. :( Why was I there? Looking for cheap hookers and some people would consider that "horrible."

MIDancer, what is your favorite perfume of the moment? (since this thread had gone off the topic, so is my question :)

Do threads ever stay on topic? ;)

I switch between Amber oil and Patchouli oil. Occasionally, I'll wear vanilla-scented body-spray.

Since they claim they are just like any other human beings and want to be treated that way, it follows that they have same ethical obligations as any other person. Makes no difference though. Many will disregard their ethical obligations due to the influence of their culture, need to get their next fix, feed their screaming babies, support their deadbeat+loser+criminal BFs, or just for plain fun.

"support their deadbeat+loser+criminal BFs".

That is very true in so many cases with these damcers I've met, and you'll note many of these guys are sort of psuedo-pimps who are often times making ongoing direct or indirect physical threats of violence against these women.