What is your breaking point to bail on ITC/OTC and just hire a pro?

I used escorts when I was hard up in my early years of my foray into p4p. Well reviewed escorts made the experience safe and reliable. I gave that up years ago and switched to OTC and sugaring. IFor me it's really mostly about making a connection and not an impersonal wham bam experience...to each their own.

My point is I don't have a price point..

My "breaking point" wasn't based on money but instead on picking up chlamydia from a stripper. Symptomless, and if I hadn't gone in for testing I would never have known that I was a carrier. That was my breaking point and when I started with SA.

I dislike ITC for all the reasons listed by @Herb: (1) bouncers (2) lack of privacy (3) sloppy-seconds. I'll also add (4) being rushed and (5) obnoxious blaring music in the background and(6) STDs. I haven't done any ITC in years and barely consider ITC sex. It's also expensive since you're supporting a brick-and-mortar establishment.

Don't like escorting, either. Too impersonal and transactional.

There's a lot of overlap b/w sugaring and seeing a dancer OTC over an extended period. Thing is, strippers don't seem to understand that SA has blown the supply-and-demand curve radically in our favor. In fact, the quality in a major metro area is probably better online than in a strip club. I've run into dancers who think sugaring involves buying them a condominium and new car. Well, good luck with that..

Sugaring seems ideal, but I think it would take a lot of time to find the right person. Also, it's probably more for those who want a longer term intimate relationship with one person.

Escorts sound good for a quick time if you're hard up.

Strippers generally seem to fall somewhere in between. I like the variety at your fingertips and the try-before-you-buy option.

Per comments in the past on similar-threads, it seems to be more about preference vs "which one is better"- some guys absolutely don't have the patience for the flakiness and hit/miss aspect of strippers/SCs - and some guys don't have much desire for the often more-transactional nature of escorts - i.e. there doesn't seem to be a "best choice" but more of what a particular PL enjoys more

Interesting comments on sugaring... thanks for the discussion.

I agree that the supply curve for sugar is astronomically high. But the downside is the time required to wade through 10-20 potentials to find one good, fuckable SB that isn't annoying as fuck when hanging out.

As I read the comments, I see that where people land is more a function of their reason for going to a club, hiring a pro, or "dating" a SB. The presumed goal implied in my question was that the PL wants to nut, preferably under ideal (or near ideal) circumstances. But that may not be a universal goal, or at least not the top goal.

Still, I'd appreciate seeing more input from VIP forum members.

"... he presumed goal implied in my question was that the PL wants to nut, preferably under ideal (or near ideal) circumstances. But that may not be a universal goal ..."

It's still the goal for many, just they have a preference on how to achieve-it/go-about-it

RandomMember - condom less sex? Thought condoms protected from chlamydia (and can’t get it from oral). How’d you get it from a stripper ITC?

Just asking - sure others want to know too!

I have had better luck transitioning a DS into a repeat OTC relationship. I see a dancer I like. Get some dances and just ask her if she is interested. Some say no but most say yes honestly.

We have a platonic meeting/lunch/dinner/coffee and work out the business then just fun from there. We understand the expectations and rules.

Do some flake at times? Yes. We discuss this upfront and I have had to send some along their way.

I have grown to prefer the middle between OTC and Arrangement. The ITC or even lappers is just the first interview.

My breaking point was around $500. I realized I could get an escort for twice the time at the same price.

One thing I really like about strip clubs... i get to see and talk face to face... and maybe test drive before I make a choice for a higher level

There is no breaking point for me, if I strike out ITC/OTC I cut my losses and live to Monger another day.

For me, I need the face to face before deciding to try ITC/OTC.

The online world of SA seems too flakey, complicated, and crowded to have any real fun.

We’ve talked a lot on here about the costs of ITC vs. OTC vs. escorts. How do those costs compare to sugaring? I always thought that attractive SBs in their 20s command $1,000+ per month, plus meals and gifts. But with so much supply, are these costs actually much lower?

So this is more a story than an answer. There is a club I like that somehow manages to keep talent high and options open despite completely ruining privacy in the club slowly over a couple of years. This was a club with booths that were private enough for lots of fun on the first level right off the main floor, and the upstairs was a pick where you wanna kinda deal. Now the downstairs booths have turned into open benches, and then the wrap around bench alcove that was still plenty dark was pulled out and replaced with a table. Then when management figured out it was still dark enough to provide room for fun, some of the managers took to turning on a recessed light above the table making it bright as fuck over there with mirrors to show different angles. Nothing like having a spotlight pop on above your head while some prick manager gives you the "I see you seeing me seeing you" look with a smirk. Now you're definitely not getting a membership out of me, you fucker.

But the best thing is when the most earnest, long winded manager ever, let's call him Bird Dog, does the slow walk all the way across the floor after you've upgraded to upstairs VIP and tells you that now there's an extra $100 charge to get to the back area of VIP because it's a now a rentable space for private parties. Well, we were having a private party until you shuffled your nosy ass over here. Then he decides to stand there and insist on walking through all the politics involved with changing how the pricing got changed, going to from boner-killer to boner-destroyer. Then you get to sit there while the dancer is doing everything in her power to get things going again, including things she flat out said she wasn't going to do. That's a win, btw. Then after you'd mostly salvaged the VIP in the more open part of the VIP level (because neither of you give a fuck anymore), then Bird Dog is standing on the other side of the upper level waiting to talk with you when you try and go back downstairs. Then when he waves you over into the members only part of the upstairs some other old guy is sitting there. And THEN you get to have an extended chat with the manager on shift and the general manager, part owner.

All that aside, I don't have a list of dealbreakers because every time I think I've seen it all something even strangers happens. Funny thing about Bird Dog is the first time I ever saw the guy I knew he was going to be a problem. It just took a couple of years for it to happen because I usually avoided him. That day I just happened to connect with a dancer who'd been hard to pin down and went with it.

@BigJuan Sugaring costs could definitely be lower than $1000/month depending on your expectations. Most start out as a PPM (pay per meet), so it depends how often you want to see them. So if you want to meet twice a month at $300 PPM, that's $600 a month. I've never tried SA myself, but girls I know that have done it along with the master pricing thread on Reddit shows me that $300 PPM is not at all uncommon and that girls will go cheaper than that.

@BigJuan and @samiel,

PPM sugar varies by many factors, but mostly it's the geographical market. In Los Angeles, it's not uncommon to see PPM agreements between $300-$500. For me, I am patient enough and use good negotiation skills so I stay in the $300-$400 range.

But in lower-populated areas (and lower talent areas), like Bakersfield or Fresno, the range drops significantly to $150-$250, and the local 8's and 9's are only 6's and 7's in LA.

Sugaring is requires different skills than mongering for ITC/OTC, though there is overlap around negotiating skills. If you have the patience to wade through 10-15 potential sugar babies to find one or two gems, and, ironically, if you can ensure you never treat her like a hooker (some of the PL's here may disagree with me on this - they are wrong), you will find the experience much better than trying to splooge on a pleather sofa while trying not to sit in the last guys splooge at the same time.

@randommember No condom?

If you are paying her per transaction, is she really a sugarbaby or just another form of pro?

Rick: the sugar norms have evolved over the past few years -- it used to be "if you're not getting a monthly allowance, you're not a sugarbaby". Today, "pay per meet" is standard for nearly all arrangements, at least during the first few months; sometimes there's a transition to traditional periodic allowance, but it's very common that it stays pay per meet forever. The difference from escorting, of course, is that even with pay per meet, it's a single payment for the date, whether it lasts 2 hours or overnight, and also no separate pricing for different sexual acts. Which makes it more like OTC for me. What separates out sugar from both OTC and escorts is, IME, you're often dealing with a woman who would not otherwise be a sexworker if not for sugaring, you get young woman who would never escort or strip but who are fine with a single SD with an arrangement that includes some level of emotional intimacy

I didn't have a "breaking point" in pursuing sugaring, per se. Well, maybe a bit -- the SC scene has been on the decline here for many years, and the abject disaster that is the employee transition really brings that home (although to be fair, I started sugaring a few years before the employee transition. I suppose if the SC scene stayed like it was in 2002, or even 2010, I might never have branched out, but as things got more difficult -- hey, why not try meeting gorgeous girls some other way?

Along the way, I figured out that I've had a more sugaring model for all my ATFs all these years... or perhaps that's bass ackwards, I label a stripper "ATF" if we transitioned to this OTC-based, sugar-like model

Personally, I love the ITC for the excitement of not knowing what is about to happen. The anticipation of a bouncer busting in, the bad girl slut who surprises you with some action, and the newness of each encounter without prearranged contact. So, I guess I have no point to bail since I just plunge forward ITC.

-->"Personally, I love the ITC for the excitement of not knowing what is about to happen. The anticipation of a bouncer busting in"

I kind of enjoyed that too, although in SF, it was always the **illusion** of the bouncer or whomever busting in. In reality, no one was going to bust in anywhere -- there's no law enforcement interest in sexual activity in non-alcohol clubs (there's no law enforcement interest in sexual activity in alcohol-serving clubs either, but there IS interest by the alcoholic beverage commission, which is worse). So, the excitement of getting busy with nothing but a thin curtain separating you from the club, I kinda like it.

===> "What separates out sugar from both OTC and escorts is, IME, you're often dealing with a woman who would not otherwise be a sexworker if not for sugaring, you get young woman who would never escort or strip but who are fine with a single SD with an arrangement that includes some level of emotional intimacy"

Sounds like a PITA to me. To each his own, but I don't have much interest in all the time, effort and drama that seem to come with dealing with these girls, at least from what I've read on here and elsewhere. I go to the club, drink, enjoy naked girls and, if the stars align, finish the night elsewhere with one. Good times.

But to each his own. If I was single with ample time to play around with this stuff, I might feel differently. But as-of now I have neither the time and patience to wade through countless girls online, including the fakes, flakes and girls with unreasonable expectations, just to finally be able to schedule something with a decent find.

Ya, totally understand. And you're making exactly the right choice -- many SBs complain like hell if all their SD wants is a cursory dinner, a quick bang, then go home. Although as I keep saying, Seeking has become a catch all for all areas of the sex industry, so very very easy to "NSA" girls on it.

I think ima bail on this convo I’m near my breaking point 😄

@25: Yet for some reason only you understand, you clicked back in anyway to keep reading it and to wow us with that riveting addition to the topic. 😄

For me once things start sounding like it’s approaching $500 you start losing me. I’m like let me see what’s going down on SA right now. Yes Wallanon birddogs running around the club is another. It’s anti fun to me and a huge mood killer. Some of these joints just don’t get it.

^^ I’m glad I entertained y’all

I’ve only done ITC, one or two OTCs and several escorts. Haven’t tried the SB/SA thing — it seems like all of the contacts that get sent to me are total bs - and it seems that maintaining anonymity is much more difficult.

In the last few years I've come to look for ITC extras as my backup to sugar and OTC dates that fall through. With FOSTA/SETSA laws still in place, it's now rather risky for me to try to find and book a new "budget" pro in the area. There's just no way to vette a pro in the $200-$350 range, although there are plenty of higher end pro's ($500-$1800, including local porn stars) that I either already know or who I can find through known bookers. But at that price point, I save those for special occasions. My typical "sugar" amount is closer to $300-$400, plus T&E costs.

So if my sugar date (I rotate about 5 of them) falls through, I know I can go to a local extras club and get what I want for $200-$400 most of the time. If I'm going to a club for some other reason, like with a buddy, I'll only indulge beyond standard LD's if a suitable "target of opportunity" presents itself. But even if I don't close any deals, I still tend to collect 2 or 3 phone numbers for possible future OTC opportunities.

Pros, Suagrs, and Strippers all on speed dial! What could go wrong? :p

-->"Haven’t tried the SB/SA thing — it seems like all of the contacts that get sent to me are total bs"

ld, what do you mean about "contacts" (SB profiles?) being "sent" to you? What site are you on? On SA, you just run a search and pick out who you want. SBs will message you, too, but many of those are scammers

Strip Clubs, Pro Hoes, and Sugar Babies may all be from the same ilk, but they are all a different shade of gray. For us, it’s the same end. I like SBs, but like Rick said they are a pain in the ass. But that’s by far the cheapest per hour rate you will ever pay. Strip clubs are the most expensive for ITC or OTC, but you get to sample the goods and you know what you are going to get. Pro girls are a crap shoot, I have had some truly memorable experiences for less than $$. And I have had some awful ones for much more than that. In this line does anyone have experience on ECCIE? Just seeing where my fellow mongers are. Cheers!

@Dolomite35

ECCIE has only been useful to me when I was travelling in Ireland and the UK 12 years ago, not in the US.

I have not looked at it since FOSTA/SETSA was passed, so no idea what use it may have now.