When does stripper shit turn turn into bonifide conversation between friends?

Both times it became more than typical stripper jargon, it was within minutes.

Maybe it stops when you stop giving them money for their company. But that's just something I doubt you would understand. ;)

I think I understand, I just don't agree that getting beyond stripper shit means you've arrived at genuine friendship. There's a lot of ground between those extremes, which is where most good stripper/customer relationships are.

How do you ever know when someone is your friend? In my experience, it starts with a gut feeling that I don't question, and it either gets confirmed over time or proves to have been an illusion or conditional upon on factors like buying something from them.

I understand and agree. But the thing which I know, that many others may not, is that the "intimacy" which a girl might display as a deeper feeling for me in the club, is perhaps the ONLY way she knows how to be intimate, in or out of the club. And what she feels is likely as fleeting as what I feel, remaining only as long as the smell of smoke or perfume on your clothes.

Having a deep, lasting relationship with a beautiful woman is a wondrous thing, and can lead to a more fulfilling sense of life and its possibilities and purpose. But when you look to another person to improve on your own life by instigating some change from the outside (if only the change, of, arriving and being IN your life in the first place), then you're already fighting a losing battle.

"How do you know when someone is your friend?" You decide that they are.

I don't think stripper shit and friendship are mutually exclusive. And I don't think money has anything to do with it. Relationships of all kinds are usually built on the filling of mutual needs. Money can play a part just as much as anything else can. In fact for young women from dysfunctional homes it's often a very real need.

PS: not "bonifide," but "bona fide" ... Latin for "in good faith" or "by means of good belief", ablative singular "BON-US -A -UM good" adjective first declension, "FID-ES, FIDE-I, faith" noun fifth declension I-stem with transferral root.

:)

FONDL: Deciding it plays a part, but it isn't the whole story by a long shot. Deciding that Paris Hilton is my friend doesn't make her that.

I'm fine with stripper shit, too. What kind of a friend would she be if you couldn't bullshit each other? I was simply accepting the way IGU seemed use the term to mean nothing but a phony sales pitch.

As for denying that money has anything to do with all of this - in a strip club, no less - I think we've gone over that one more than it deserves, so I'll let it pass and hope it continues to make you feel better.

Deciding to trust someone is one thing. Offering that trust doesn't make it mutual and deciding you want to be someone's friend doesn't make THAT mutual either. It's fine to put your faith in someone as long as you are prepared for the fact that it may be missplaced and you may get hurt.

In the context of strip clubs and dancers the only way you will know is to completely remove money from the equation. It has happened to me twice and both of those ladies are friends to me, not dancers. It's much more common to find the gray area that Chandler talked about and honestly thats just fine with me.

I was thinking what stripper shit? However I wouldn't be surprised if some dancers talk about customer shit. I was thinking I told one dancer who asked me for a dance maybe later. I just got there and was drinking some beer I had. She went to work on getting dances from another group. Right before she had a chance to finish up with them, I moved to another corner of the club and then snuck out the door. I knew I was next on her hit list. That's not really customer shit in my opinion, it's just a savvy customer. I might have stayed if the rest of the club wasn't so boring.

Yoda: In either case did you just remove money from the equation out of the blue in order to test her friendship? I'm guessing that's not how it went. That is how it usually sounds when it's given as advice, however to actually do that would probably kill both a business relationship and any friendship. Removal of money is usually an aftereffect, not a precondition.

No chandler I didn't do any experimenting. I would never be that presumptuous. In both cases I began seeing the ladies outside of the club-not for sex but for various reasons. In both cases, as we became friendly we both became uncomfortable with the idea of them doing dances for me. That, btw, is a perfectly normal feeling-not to want to grind on a friend's dick for money. While stopping the money may be an after effect of the friendship I believe that it is a necessity none the less. Any guy who thinks a dancer is a true friend even if she still wants his money and will grind his dick to get it is sadly mistaken. There is a big difference between "friend" and "friendly"

Chandler, I'm OK with stripper shit from a friend too, which is why I said they weren't mutually exclusive. In fact I find it amusing. But why would you want to be friends with Paris Hilton?

And would someone please explain to my why, for example, if a young female friend (stripper or otherwise) was moving and wanted my help, it's OK for me to spend a day helping her move but not OK to give her some money so she can hire someone else to help. Frankly I'd rather do the latter, I hate moving. But many of you seem to think that if I give her money we're no longer friends, which I think is silly.

FONDL: Do you have a more absurd example for whom deciding he or she is your friend wouldn't make it so? Feel free to substitute their name for Paris Hilton.

Chandler, I was trying to keep this within the context of strippers, or at least of young girls in need of help, which is what a lot of young strippers are. Many of these young women have never had a real friend. If you decide you want to befriend one of these people, deciding to make the first move and being a friend can improve your chances greatly over just waiting for them to make the first move or to prove themselves worthy. So I believe that in many such cases (althought certainly not all) the choice is yours. That's exactly how I became my ATF's friend, I decided to be her friend regardless of what she did, and it eventually wore her down. It may (and did) take awhile but persistence often pays off. (I know of three different married couples where the girl initially had no interest in the guy but he persisted and wore her down.)

FONDL asks: "if a young female friend (stripper or otherwise) was moving and wanted my help, it's OK for me to spend a day helping her move but not OK to give her some money so she can hire someone else to help. Frankly I'd rather do the latter, I hate moving. But many of you seem to think that if I give her money we're no longer friends, which I think is silly."

I agree, and I don't exactly understand the cultural norms surrounding this whole giving-money business. When I was a poor graduate student I had some friends who had "regular" jobs. They probably weren't making all that much -- I recall one had a new Honda Civic Si which didn't have power windows. But they had a regular Thursday night out "with the boys" at a local pub, and the beers were expensive. Over the course of the evening they'd put back four, five, maybe six pints apiece, at $6 or $7 plus tip each. I couldn't afford it, but they were my main social outlet. It often ended up that we would "share a round" and then someone would get my round for me, etc. etc. I didn't like being put in that predicament. Some dudes just liked the idea of throwing money at the problem -- Bookie doesn't have cash! I'll give him MY cash! -- and although that was kind of fun and silly once or twice, I got to where I just avoided it. And other dudes were real accountants about it -- Let's see, Bookie has had two and a third pints and is still holding one third; Fred owes me from last week a quarter of a slice of pizza ... etc.

In the long run, their "lifestyle" and mine meant we couldn't socialize together. I frankly didn't like socializing with people who didn't know about anything other than drinking a lot of pints of beer, anyway, so it was no huge loss to me. They thought of me as the weird one in the bunch, some dude who couldn't hold down a regular job. (In fact, that's still an accurate description of me.)

Anyway, long story shorter, I know what it feels like to have no cash and then be the recipient of someone else's beneficence. I don't like it. It makes me feel like a loser who can't make his own money. There are times when moving something, or doing some other chore, takes two people -- if only, just to have one to hold a door open, or wait at the other end of the telephone line. You can't really hire someone to do a few odd jobs like that -- the effort would merit them earning no more than about $4, tota; but the bottleneck of NOT having someone to do that, and of normal hourly wages, suggests to me that very few laborers would take less than $20, for holding a door open. And then if you pay for something menial like door-holders, you're the "rich guy" on the block, rather than the dude who puts his hands in the pot along with everyone else.

It's a complicated mess. The only real solution, is to be so freakin' rich that everyone wants a piece of you, and you don't give it out just to spite them. I guess being really poor and accepting everyone else's handouts is another solution that many people seem to gravitate toward, but like I said, I didn't like it even when I DID choose to be poor for good (well, they seemed good at the time) reasons, like graduate school etc.

FONDL: What I'm saying is that giving a dancer money for dances, in other words, while she is working, makes it impossible for you to truly judge her motives when it comes to friendship. Giving her money for anything else, while she is still dancing, also clouds the issue. If you don't understand why that is at your age I guess you just don't want to believe it. Now, on the other hand, if she is no longer dancing and you are trying to help her get on her feet (as both you and I have done with our ATF's) that's a different story.

Yoda, I agree completely. I'm not talkinga bout a relationship with a working dancer, I'm talking about something entirely different. But I do think that every situation is different and that whatever blanket statements we make there will always be exceptions.

BookGuy, you also are using a different context from the one I'm talking about. I fully understand the situation you are describing. But how about when a group of relatives (say brothers and sisters) get together for dinner, and the guy who can afford it the most always picks up the tab? I think you'll find that's pretty common, and in many cases there's no resentment.

Similarly when you're talking about an older person who is fairly well off and a young person just starting out, I don't see anything wrong with the older person helping the young person now and then. And when I do that with my ATF, she always says she'll pay me back someday (and means it) and I always reply that she can do that by helping someone else someday, and I know she will. Plus her free massages are great. She's the closest friend I've ever had and vice versa, and we never would have gotten there without my being generous in many different ways. And now that she's in a position to return the favor, she does.

Sorry, this thread is getting too weird. Back to the original question: I can't tell when, and I think anybody who says they know how to tell when is fooling themselves and missing the point. If you enjoy a stripper's company, what difference does it make whether she's bullshitting you or bona fide? In either case, she's doing her job well, which is what really counts.

(I should save this and paste it every time this topic comes around again.)

FONDL: Agreed. Especially about your family example.

In fact, the most telling point I could make is, that nearly every manual on "how to pick up strippers" says that STEP A NUMBER ONE is, to NEVER let her see you as a customer. Only ever interact with her as though it's a "normal" bar; never pay for a dance; don't tip her at the stage, or, if you do, then do so non-chalantly as though you are doing so in order to rent your time at your table, and simply leave the dollar flat on stage rather than ogling her and trying to grope her skin while tucking it under cleavage or clothing straps. So, the way to a stripper-girl's REAL "heart" is (according to all the advice columnists) DEFINITELY NOT through emptying your wallet.

Actually, step number one should be don't pay any attention to those books. Every time somebody tells about what they say it sounds like the the dumbest advice you could come up with. They're all nothing but a scam designed to exploit a ready-made audience of suckers.

Nothing personal, mind you, Book Guy.

Chandler, I agree that you can't usually tell and that it doesn't make any difference anyway. Except for when you really get to know the girl, then you eventually get to a point where can tell. But by then she's being pretty honest anyway. Or I wouldn't still be seeing her.

Book Guy, my experience with my ATF is the exact oppposite of what your books tell you to do. I was my ATF's best customer the 1.5 years that she danced. Then she went back to waitressing and I continued to be her regular customer. And it gradually turned into friendship.

Yah, but you're still a CUSTOMER. When did you get to be her BOYFRIEND?

FONDL: I don't agree with your exception. I don't believe any of us can tell the difference between really getting to know a girl and getting to know only the part the stripper allows her customers to know. That's where so many PLs seem to get confused. They think because they're getting personal with her it must be real. And it feels real, because it is a part of her. But it's only the part she chooses to show. She leaves out parts, for example her wish to be anywhere else but hanging out with her customer.

Chandler, I think it depends on the girl. I agree it's easy to convince yourself that it's real when it isn't, and I was probably guilty of doing that on occasion in the distant past. I've sonce learned better, and it's definately a learning process. In fact I haven't really gotten close to another stripper since I met my ATF nearly 10 years ago. I haven't gotten past the pure customer stage. And I probably never will, I can't afford either the money or the time that it takes. Nor do I have the interest.

The only thing I REALLY have interest in, is establishing a sexual relationship (preferably a "dating" one, not just a "paying" one) with women who are physically appealing to me. So my gist is all about "how do I get to date her"? It's not the usual thing to do in a strip club -- in fact, it's probably almost utterly impossible for a guy like me -- but that doesn't make it any less interesting to me. So, when I discuss things like getting "intimate," I mean it in a "real world" sense. As in, you become her REAL boyfriend and lover. I know, it's a long shot, and it's not even anything I proactively seek to accomplish when I'm at a club. But it's still my dream scenario.

FONDL, I think your experience supports my contention. At least a few times, you thought you were really getting to know girls. Only once, 10 years ago, did she turn out to be what you had thought, and it was only over time that you were able to confirm that she wasn't like the others. We can't tell which will be the outcome as we're getting to know them as strippers.

Book Guy, if your goal is to find a GF, you shouldn't be spending your time is strip clubs, the odds there are poor. Go elsewhere.

FONDL: of course. That much I understand. Just GOING elsewhere isn't going to do it, though. And oddly, for me, my "normal life" experiences don't tend to put me in proximity with women who are hot enough that I would want them to be my girlfriend.

BookGuy: Maybe you need to attend the local AA meetings, or maybe the local Sexaholic's Annonymous meetings. At least you know the women there "want it".

Seriously, my single friends always tell me that grocery stores and university libraries are great places to meet hot women. At the grocery, you can find the single girls that are not in a serious relationship by checking out her ring finger, and then noting what's in her cart... no ring, groceries that appear to be "food for one", should be a green light to approach... she's probably lonely and receptive to new acquaintances... She might also be thinking about how she needs someone 'cause she doesn't like eating alone...

Chandler, with the girls I met after my ATF, I never paid much attention to what they said or took it seriously. So it didn't matter to me whether it was real or stripper shit. I haven't had any interest in taking any of them beyond the time at hand (no pun intended.)

But to get back to the original question, I think it depends on the girl. Some girls are into stripper shit, some aren't. And some are so good at it that it's impossible to tell, and others are so bad at it that it's obvious. My ATF was really good at it, which I always found amusing. She used to tell every customer something different just to see if she could remember who she told what, it was a game she liked to play and she's very playful. She's probably the most skillful liar whom I've ever met. She also has a fantastic memory. A most unusual person.

I was with a pretty hot girl at a strip club last night. She was basically my physical ideal, and she also had a lot of that "girlish" innocent thing in her attitudes which is so fetching. But she LACKED any stripper "skills" to such an extent that I didn't end up spending much money on her at all. She didn't really "flirt", she discussed her boyfriend or her acne for most of the night -- honestly, and in a friendly and enjoyable manner, but a manner that doesn't contribute to MY FANTASY at all. I liked her looks and demeanor so much, that I contemplated taking her to the uber-expensive (and reputedly very-low-contact) private upstairs options at a New Orleans Bourbon Street club, something I've soooo seldom done before. But when we were getting the "mandatory tour" of our room options, she was just so bad at making me want to be there, that I ended up thinking with the big head instead of the little one for a change. Not enough stripper shit. :(

FONDL: Are you saying you can tell when you're getting to know the real girl, you just haven't bothered to try in 10 years? I don't consider that a very convincing answer. It appears your hunch proved correct one time out of several. That's similar to my experience.

The question isn't whether it depends on the girl. That's a given. Nobody's saying all girls are the same. Some are obviously bullshitting. A few seem to be genuine. As long as they're working at getting our money, there's no way we can tell which of those few are for real. Even they often don't know themselves until they're forced to choose, which usually means when money is no longer a consideration.

Chandler, I'm saying that I've had little interest in getting to know any strippers who I've met since my ATF. I enjoyed their company for an hour or two and left it at that. I did have another favorite for awhile but she was so full of stripper shit that I didn't take anything she said very seriously (for example, she always said I was her favorite customer which certainly wasn't true - in fact I think she found me pretty frustrating because I ignored stuff like that, she kept trying to get me to spend more on her and nothing she tried worked.) I acually think a lot of SS is pretty funny.

FONDL, I already understood all that. I still don't see on what basis you say you can sometimes tell who's for real. That's all I've been asking about for the last several days.

Chandler, I've only ever wanted to get to know 3 strippers on a personal level. With 2 of them I succeeded, the third I feel for her stripper shit. So the 2 out of 3 times I tried I was successful in telling the truth from the SS. Interestingly one of the 3 girls never ever gave me any SS. Also interestingly, the 2 with whom I was successful were brand new dancers, the thrid was an old pro.

Sure, whatever, FONDL. By "on occasion" I took you to mean more than once. And funny how after countless threads where you've described your usual M.O. as finding one girl and spending your whole visit getting to know her really well, all of a sudden you're totally dismissive of the idea. If I thought that would be your story I wouldn't have wasted my words.

Depends on how you define "get to know" ...

There's a girl I used to get dances from on a regular basis about 8 years ago in an Edinburgh club and with whom the chat easily progressed from "stripper shit" to the "middle area" once she recognised me when I came in. She gave up dancing and became a masseuse and I later encountered her under a different name in a city parlour. We soon recognised each other again and, while I still meet up with her and pay for a different kind of service, we have some common interests as well as history and the conversation is most definitely bona fide. And I know she's clean!

The best way I saw to get rid of stripper shit is to straight up call them out on it and making it clear that your not the conventional customer. I did that with my ATF and eventually she spent more money on me buying me drinks and dinner to keep me around than I did on dances. Long story short I told her I enjoyed her company but didn't want to pay for it, she suggested hanging out outside the club and now we are dating and just I recently met her child. It does happen it just takes persistence and preserverence. Plus I refused to believed a word she says until I saw her outside the club.

WTF!!!!!!