OT: I guess Pocahontas wants to be known as Robin Hood instead
Papi_Chulo
Miami, FL (or the nearest big-booty club)
Elizabeth Warren will introduce legislation to cancel student loan debt for most borrowers
Democratic presidential candidate Elizabeth Warren isn’t waiting for the election to push forward her proposal to erase the majority of the country’s outstanding student debt.
The Massachusetts senator and Rep. James E. Clyburn (D-S.C.) announced on Wednesday their plan to introduce legislation in the Senate and House to eliminate up to $50,000 in student loan debt for 42 million Americans.
“It’s time to decide: Are we going to be a country that only helps the rich and powerful get richer and more powerful, or are we going to be a country that invests in its future?” Warren said, in a statement.
Outstanding education debt in the U.S. is projected to swell to $2 trillion by 2022, surpassing credit card or auto debt levels. Today, the average college graduate leaves school $30,000 in the red, up from $10,000 in the 1990s. Nearly one-quarter of borrowers are in delinquency or default.
Borrowers with household incomes under $100,000 would be eligible to have $50,000 of their student debt scrubbed.
People who earn between $100,000 and $250,000 would be eligible for less forgiveness. For example, Warren writes, “a person with household income of $130,000 gets $40,000 in cancellation, while a person with household income of $160,000 gets $30,000 in cancellation.”
And those who earn more than $250,000 would not be eligible for any debt forgiveness.
In all, more than 95% of student loan borrowers would see at least some of their debt cancelled.
The plan would be funded with a 2% annual tax Warren proposes to levy on accumulations of wealth exceeding $50 million, with an additional 1% on wealth exceeding $1 billion.
In a recent Politico/Morning Consult poll, 56% of registered voters said they support the Massachusetts senator’s proposal to wipe out $640 billion in outstanding education loans by raising taxes on the wealthiest Americans.
Just 27% of voters said they opposed the plan.
In an interview on CNN on Sunday, Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders suggested he, too, would soon be putting forth a plan to forgive student loan debt.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/13/bill-wou…
Democratic presidential candidate Elizabeth Warren isn’t waiting for the election to push forward her proposal to erase the majority of the country’s outstanding student debt.
The Massachusetts senator and Rep. James E. Clyburn (D-S.C.) announced on Wednesday their plan to introduce legislation in the Senate and House to eliminate up to $50,000 in student loan debt for 42 million Americans.
“It’s time to decide: Are we going to be a country that only helps the rich and powerful get richer and more powerful, or are we going to be a country that invests in its future?” Warren said, in a statement.
Outstanding education debt in the U.S. is projected to swell to $2 trillion by 2022, surpassing credit card or auto debt levels. Today, the average college graduate leaves school $30,000 in the red, up from $10,000 in the 1990s. Nearly one-quarter of borrowers are in delinquency or default.
Borrowers with household incomes under $100,000 would be eligible to have $50,000 of their student debt scrubbed.
People who earn between $100,000 and $250,000 would be eligible for less forgiveness. For example, Warren writes, “a person with household income of $130,000 gets $40,000 in cancellation, while a person with household income of $160,000 gets $30,000 in cancellation.”
And those who earn more than $250,000 would not be eligible for any debt forgiveness.
In all, more than 95% of student loan borrowers would see at least some of their debt cancelled.
The plan would be funded with a 2% annual tax Warren proposes to levy on accumulations of wealth exceeding $50 million, with an additional 1% on wealth exceeding $1 billion.
In a recent Politico/Morning Consult poll, 56% of registered voters said they support the Massachusetts senator’s proposal to wipe out $640 billion in outstanding education loans by raising taxes on the wealthiest Americans.
Just 27% of voters said they opposed the plan.
In an interview on CNN on Sunday, Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders suggested he, too, would soon be putting forth a plan to forgive student loan debt.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/13/bill-wou…
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SJG
Any proposed restitution for those people?
I don’t feel a kid from a poor family that chose a degree based on its earning potential (because he understood the importance of a a lucrative career due to not having the luxury of family with money) who’s now earning $200,000 a year should get less forgiveness than the kid that came from a middle class home and majored in something absolutely useless (I chose not to pick a major so I didn’t offended anyone) and with no job market, and is now living at home, with parents that can afford to support them while they make $20,000 at Starbucks.
There should be some merit to the student that had their shit together to have a career and we should not reward the kids that think college is a time to find themselves and learn about things they “like” that don’t get them jobs in the real world. And now are $50,000 in debt with a dumb ass degree with no job market.
What do they want, boy scout medals? They did what they did.
But it is a horrible tragedy that we are loading young people down with debts.
And college is a time to find yourself. This is extremely important. We don't want people making decisions about college based income expectations.
SJG
SJG
IDK enough of the inner-workings but I've heard in the past that the government itself, with all its well-intentioned financial-aid and Pell-grants; is a big contributor to sky-rocketing college-costs - I just don't know the exact correlation - but looks like a similar argument to those that say private-insurance is a big contributor to sky-rocketing healthcare.
I don't know how the Bernie Sanders free college plan is to work. He has written a book. But there have to be cost controls, and one of the reasons the costs are so high are the various type of financial aid.
I think in France all the colleges have been made public, and then the costs are controlled. Might have to so something like that.
Medicare, originally was to have cost controls, board established fees. LBJ scraped that to bring the AMA on board.
Today, the proposals for Universal Medicare, these do have such cost controls.
SJG
If kids want to go off to school and major in something so useless that there’s essentially no job market because they don’t have to worry because they can just move back in with mommy and daddy, that’s fine. I agree they should do that if it works for them. But they don’t get to walk away from debt from their poor choices, while those that made good choices don’t get as much relief.
I have to respectively disagree that income expectation is exactly what college decisions are made on, and that the only purpose of college is obtaining a degree to earn money.
Do children growing up in middle class homes think of college as something more besides that? I’m honestly asking, as this was not my experience.
It is a public responsibility, and for a public benefit. But no, we don't have any individual authority over it.
I'm glad college worked out for you. But you have no business denigrating what others studied in college.
We want people as broadly educated as possible. Job training is a poor substitute for that.
As I have seen, to answer your question, most people are already far too narrow in their views about what they should study in college.
Really, a life long education, with work experience, learning the most liberally, and then also learning more focused things of one's own choice, would seem to be best.
ongoing discussion:
https://www.tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=…
old book now, but gets to what you are asking about, Stanford:
https://www.amazon.com/Careerism-Intelle…
SJG
SJG
SJG remains an ass fucked loser, so at least some things don't change.
It's all in how they ask the question. When people say they support it, they think only people like Warren Buffet and Jeff Bezos will have to pay more. The reality is their definition of wealthy is anybody with a job. $640 Billion is a lot of dough.
He chose this major because it was something he really enjoyed. Well that’s dandy but last I heard, at almost 40 years old this man is still living with his mom, and is not working, but now wants to write fiction books. And not using his narrow, expensive degree. He should not get s penny of that forgiven. The money paid for college should be an investment in ones future and these kids need to treat is as such. If they don't, fine. But I don’t believe we send a good message forgiving debt incurred with irresponsible decisions. Against just my opinion.
I think being well rounded is extremely valuable. I am not trying to degrade ones degree choice and I apologize it came off that way.
What I am saying is there does exist the job market. And as I’ve experienced the world this far, the purpose of college is to acquire an education to get a better job because either you want to earn more money or because you have a passion for something and that is what you want to do with your life.
However, I enjoy artistic hobbies but did not major in them, because I understood that while it’s nice to like ones career, that it’s also nice to pay ones bills, and live comfortably. I imagine many many people in the work force would rather be doing something else, but stay at their current job because of the pay.
My point is, when I spoke harshly, there was some personal annoyance there as I imagined my former friend getting his loans forgiven because he thought it would be fun to learn about stuff with next to zero job market. I think that’s sends the wrong message and is a slap in the face to those that chose their major wisely. We should reward for good planning among young people.
If you need to "find yourself" do two years of community college and then transfer. Helluva a lot cheaper.
In 2005 Fortune 500 companies spent about 6% of gross revenues on R & D. That sane year K to 12 education spent .04% on R & D. So a strong U S Department of Education is needed to learn and disseminate what we know of best practices of teaching and control costs at the post-secondary level.
Gender Studies is good, if that is what resonates for you.
I think it was a mistake to ever start on the system of Student Loans. If someone said to me that they were going to start taking them out, I don't think I would encourage it.
Should have stayed with the old grant system, kept that until we were ready for a Bernie Sanders Free College, or a Hillary Clinton Debt Free College system. Thank you Ronald Reagan.
For today, I hope the feds could find some way to make the banks eat much of it, before paying it off. Its totally fucked. Play hardball with the banks.
My organization will have college for our people, totally free. If we offer it to outsiders, the costs will still be low. People can work 1/2 time and pay for everything as they go. As far as federal money, if we could get that it could help. But I would never want anyone incurring debt.
Any kind of a class, or just reading a book, it should leave you blown away by the sense of how little you actually know, and how much more there is to learn.
Education should be life long, and best when mixed with work experience.
On going discussions:
Americans are under-educated
https://www.tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=…
OT: Are Traditional Colleges and Universities Bad Environments?
https://www.tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=…
Alternative Educations
https://www.tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=…
SJG
Secret Doctrine, Joy Mills, 1988, Ojai Krotona, one of many parts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l1AJM4Q…
Rock Standards
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWWT_EUv…
Camus and The French Resistance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7dHEm-z…
It’s still affordable if the left wing liberals haven’t convinced you the only education that matters is going to Cal berkeley, Stanford, or USC.
Cost of college has gone up eight times faster than wages since 1989 and GenEx-ers really do have a harder time getting a degree. It's not left-wing propaganda and something should be done.
Some of the complaints above about fairness are valid.
Warren is proposing paying for this, and other programs, with a radical new wealth tax (2% per year) on fortunes above and beyond $50M. It's not her idea; it's based on exhaustive research by two superstar economists at Berkeley. The idea is that incentives don't change very much on earning the next million after $50M and society as whole is better off without extreme income and wealth inequality. Taxing wealth may be impossible in a practical sense or unconstitutional, but it's worth talking about.
Warren's surging in the polls and she's less dreamlike than Bernie Sanders. I doubt she can win -- but I said the same thing about Trump.
If you insist on talking about Robin Hood, the Trump tax cut robs from the poor and gives to the rich. As predicted it's increasing the debt and deficit dramatically. The tax cut helps stock holders somewhat and helps those who get paid primarily in stocks enormously. The 2/3 of society that doesn't hold stocks did not benefit and they'll get screwed further if and when entitlements are cut to pay for the deficit. Inverse Robin Hood.
I like what I believe Columbia, has done picking up Med school tuition to allow graduates to go into fields of medicine where there’s a shortage rather find the most lucrative specialties, but that’s localized for those that had a goal, subsidizing all those with a purpose makes sense, but not just for the sake of avoiding adulthood.
_____
Good point. Maybe there's a more intelligent and targeted way to help students who have their head on straight.
At the 1860 Democratic National Convention, Southerners demanded "A Slave Code For The West", they had been insisting that slavery be able to expand into the West. When they did not get this, they followed the lead of the Senator from Mississippi, and walked out of the convention. This convention had been the last clear chance to avoid war, but walking out split the party and guaranteed that the new Republican Party and Abraham Lincoln would win. Lincoln said he was not going to let slavery spread into the Western States, but that he would not interfere with it where it was now practiced.
No matter though, in December South Carolina and Mississippi announced their intents to secede. This would then be followed by a total of 7 states announcing secession, and proceeding to take over all post offices and court houses, until there was nothing left but Fort Sumter. And this was all before Lincoln's March Inauguration.
So Lincoln did respond, even though that meant 4 more states announcing secession and turmoil in Kentucky and Missouri, simply to try and restore the Union. Original intents were simply to restore the Union as it had been. Lincoln moved at once to occupy Baltimore and DC. He drew upon Benjamin Butler of Massachusetts as occupation general.
Originally Butler was to be returning escaped slaves to their owners, following the 1850 fugitive slave act. And originally Butler saw his job as that of preventing a slave revolt, like the one which founded the nation of Haiti.
Quickly though Butler saw that returning slaves made no sense, and so he reclassified escaped slaves as "war contraband".
Though some in the newly founded Republican Party were Radical Abolitionists, not so with Abraham Lincoln. He was never like this.
What forced his hand were England and France. England had stationed a 2 million man army in Canada, "for possible intervention in the American Civil War". France was being run by that idiot Emperor Louis Napoleon the 3rd. He was claiming colonies across the globe and he had stationed his puppet Maximilian in Mexico.
England and France were saying that they were going to give diplomatic recognition to the Confederacy. They they would be able to use their sea power to break the Union blockade, as well as advancing across US borders. This would have expanded the scope of the Civil War to the point where it was unwinable.
So seeing no other options, Lincoln broke his campaign pledge and issued the Emancipation Proclamation. But this did not free slaves in Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland, and some other federally occupied areas like the mid-atlantic coast and around New Orleans.
What finally made it such that slavery had to be completely abandoned by Constitutional Amendment was simply the fact that 180,000 black men trained with rifled muskets and bayonets and served in federal uniform. It was thus untenable to back track.
extremely good:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXXp1bHd…
Mitch McConnell is full of shit!
SJG
Gimme Shelter, my favorite, Amsterdam 1995, Lisa Fischer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_a6YqWj…
Rolling Stones - Band Introductions w/ Lisa Fischer & Honky Tonk Women - 1995
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im0wxTmL…
Lisa Fischer, Oakland 1994, but they hadn't learned to keep the camera on her.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5MfBAwm…
This seems to be Lisa, the video is good, more widely viewed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvSgUH0W…
"
I paid for my own way through school by working while going to school. I don’t see anything wrong with doing it that way now, even if it means you go to junior college for the first two years before hitting a state school with in state tuition."
This is indeed a rare occasion, because in large measure I agree with him, that is but for a few caveats.
1. It is better if a student can pay for college as they go. And for many a junior college is the best route. But often this is not possible. College costs have sky rocketed. The peak for purchasing power for a basic wage earner was in the 1969 to 1972 era. Many people are just barely able to pay housing expenses. Newspapers write about people living on sofas while working 2 or 3 jobs. County Supervisor Dave Cortese talks about San Jose City College Students living in their cars. Now the colleges try to track this and the number is high. Local teacher talks about most of the students indicating that the purchase of a $90 text book will create hardship. Local Community College lets you donate 10 cans of food, and then you can check out a text book from the library for an entire semester. So the hardship is there, and it is real. And then there are single parents and those with chronic health conditions, who face even greater hardship.
Someone who wants to do the school work is trying to do something good. We should do whatever it takes to support them.
2. For many Community College is the best way. No one wants to make life unnecessarily
harder on themselves. But Community Colleges don't handle everything. 3 of our UC Campuses no longer accept transfers. Some people have the high school scholarship which has prepared them for top tier schools, but the limit is just money. Some are ready for such schools, but they are also escaping from abusive families, and the parents won't pay anything.
I guess USC does have a reputation for having rich kids. But these will be people whose parents will be paying as they go.
Stanford and UC Berkeley are hard to get into. The costs should be brought down. Don't know how the Bernie Sanders plan would deal with private schools.
But if someone is able to get in, we should support them to continue.
3rd Caveat, IceyLoco posted,
"
It would be nice if there were jobs out there that would pay enough for someone to live off of and go to school....
"
And this is a really important point. No matter how long we can keep people in school, and no matter what they are learning when they are in there, that does not mean that there will be jobs for them. Other than by expanding our colleges, more people in school does not mean more jobs. Getting them to stay in school is good, but not because that means that there will be jobs.
Our's is still largely a consumer demand driven economy. Upper income taxes and spending do create more jobs. UBI and public housing will create more jobs. But we also have to just accept that our labor market is not able to come up with jobs for everyone who might want one, and that this will be becoming more so each decade as industrial and information technology advance.
4. Final Caveat, in Meat72's posts on this thread there is a theme, saying, "I have lived my life properly and responsibly, so everyone else should be made to do the same."
Well this has become the standard mantra on the Republican-Libertarian Right, and for many of the regulars on this board. But it has no foundation. People do the best they can with what they have. None of us can say that if we had to live in their skin that we could do any better.
If someone is actually trying to go to college that is one of the best things which they could do, and we should support them.
As far as schools being used for people to "find themselves", which is what Ataboy posted and why I came in. People do need to find themselves, our highly conflicted world requires this.
Book that I like, based on Parceval story and work of Joseph Campbell
Path of the Everyday Hero
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Path-Everyday-H…
And then there is the Ira Progoff Intensive Journaling work.
And then there are the Ignatian Exercises and other religious approaches to discernment.
I would not make any of these into college courses, but a few weeks in a non-academic summer program, plus being able to return to it at later times in life, that would really help.
And then many young people benefit much from being able to live and work in a counter cultural environment.
Does Bill Clinton's AmeriCorps still run?
I feel that young people are being snookered by our society when they end up with these loans. That was a mistake from the start. Should have stayed with the grants, until we were ready to go to a Bernie Sanders free with cost controls system.
And now getting beyond this, I feel that our society needs to have people far more educated, and in different ways, and accustomed to life long learning. People need as liberal and as broad an education as possible. The only real limitation is what should they be learning about and what should they be reading:
Alternative Educations
https://www.tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=…
Americans are under-educated
https://www.tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=…
OT: Are Traditional Colleges and Universities Bad Environments?
https://www.tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=…
SJG
Alternative Educations
https://www.tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=…
Neil Young Down by the River live at Hard Rock Calling 2009
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufsHa4X9…
But you do not have the right to unilaterally secede from the tax code. Your individual approval is not a requirement.
The benefit to our society of educating people is huge. We need to do more of this. But my own view is that it could be done at a small fraction of the cost which is currently being paid.
Of course in my organization we will do this for our own people. And there will be no extra charge for this. Were we ever to offer this to outsiders, there would be some charge, but it would be modest and we would have a program by which you can pay all costs by part time work.
As far as ever taking government money, that could help us build the organization. But I would not ever want anyone to be incurring debt just because of our school.
I first learned of Elizabeth Warren as a Harvard Law School Professor, via her book:
https://www.amazon.com/Two-Income-Trap-M…
She is saying that our current system is crazy, dual income sized mortgage payments double the risk of financial collapse. She is looking at bankruptcy and saying that the parties are largely blameless, contrary to how the Republicans have been portraying it.
But then I was thrilled when I saw that Massachusetts had elected her to the Senate.
So probably, being concerned with personal bankruptcies and some of the financial inanities which drive this, it makes sense that she would also be concerned about college loan debts. The things which make that kind of debt different, is that it cannot be discharged by bankruptcy.
I say that setting this up was a huge mistake. Bankruptcy is a remedy of last resort, going back to the middle ages. It is a tough remedy, the ceremonial breaking of the craftsman's bench.
Well people have posted here about paying for college as they go. And people have posted about paying back the loans. Great!
But understand that for many nothing like that has worked, or ever really was possible. And lots of people get into huge financial trouble without any thing like college loans being in the mix.
This is all caused by the lending industry, by the lack of good and stable jobs, by our health care system, and by the insane real estate industry where people are bidding to get access to good schools. These are the primary focus of Warren's book.
So when you add a college loan system which cannot be discharged by bankruptcy, of course that makes it worse.
Hey, if the feds don't take over these college loans, then some young people will end up living their lives underground, dodging debt collectors. That cannot be good.
Going to college loans and making it so they were unlike other loans was a mistake.
I would hope that the feds can play hardball with the lenders and make some of them eat it.
And in saying this, I mean no disrespect to those who have paid for their own college or have paid off the loans. Its just that that is not always going to work for all people.
And then as far as more and more useful and cost effective education than job training:
https://www.tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=…
https://www.tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=…
SJG
the arete project
https://areteproject.org/
So do they read from the same list of Dead White Males, or do they have other selections?
"academics, labor, and self-governance"
Some programs co-ed, some women only.
As I know "arete" comes from Plato's Symposium, at least it is talked about there. Might not be the original use.
https://scholarcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewc…
Says it comes from Homeric times
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arete
Though specifics of content could be debated, I think this kind of school has much more to offer than conventional colleges. Though no matter what kind of education you have, you will still need more beyond that, so it has to be life long.
founder Laura Marcus
https://areteproject.org/leadership/
Deep Springs College, near Bishop CA, actually in Dyer NV
https://www.deepsprings.edu/
Only 15 students per year, and they all get a full scholarship.
From this, its still in CA
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Deep+S…
In the center here is their building, on Deep Springs Ranch Road.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Deep+S…
These schools generally want students to be isolated, collecting up cell phones, little outside Internet.
Different things possible.
These kinds of programs tend to be 2 years or less.
Alternative Educations
https://www.tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=…
SJG
Joy Mills: The Secret Doctrine---100 Years Later
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pqg0ibM…
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/ar…
Democratic presidential hopefuls are full of ideas about what to do with the nation’s $1.6 trillion of student debt. Today, Senator Bernie Sanders announced the most expansive proposal of those the candidates have suggested thus far. Sanders, along with Representatives Ilhan Omar of Minnesota and Pramila Jayapal of Washington, introduced new legislation to cancel all student debt—yes, all student debt—and make public colleges debt-free.
SJG
College is, or at least had been, considered a good thing.
Like Van Jones said, College and Home Ownership had been the ladder to the middle-class. But lately with the college loans and the subprime mortgages, they have become the trap doors to destitution.
We need to fix this.
SJG