Not wanting to be like all the other guys...
PaulDrake
Off again on again PL
PHILOSOPHICAL DISCUSSION WARNING
So recently NiceSpice posted a Jacq the stripper comic:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DcTvPXjU8AAt…
I have definitely was one of those guys who wanted to believe that: "I'm not like all the other guys in here".
Initially as a 'baby PL' I wanted to just stick to LDKs and I didn't want to accept the fact that I needed the companionship and conversation. And I really didn't want to let myself even enjoy the affectionate non-sexual touch (cuddling) which has now become one of my favorite parts. But if I am totally honest I am just like the other regulars and trying to fill a hole in my life with the SC.
I can also see the mindset of the comic in another way. Sometimes it makes me feel uncomfortable to watch a stripper and PL interacting. For a while I thought it was maybe jealousy but it isn't. What makes me truly uncomfortable is that watching another PL can be like a twisted mirror in which I see a true reflection of myself.
I think the best PLs and strippers are sometimes really good at being self deceptive. I obviously am not. It would be interesting to hear from some of tuscls most battle hardened PLs like papi or rickdugan as to how the see themselves but they may be the least likely to enjoy or be as capable of honest deep introspection.
So recently NiceSpice posted a Jacq the stripper comic:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DcTvPXjU8AAt…
I have definitely was one of those guys who wanted to believe that: "I'm not like all the other guys in here".
Initially as a 'baby PL' I wanted to just stick to LDKs and I didn't want to accept the fact that I needed the companionship and conversation. And I really didn't want to let myself even enjoy the affectionate non-sexual touch (cuddling) which has now become one of my favorite parts. But if I am totally honest I am just like the other regulars and trying to fill a hole in my life with the SC.
I can also see the mindset of the comic in another way. Sometimes it makes me feel uncomfortable to watch a stripper and PL interacting. For a while I thought it was maybe jealousy but it isn't. What makes me truly uncomfortable is that watching another PL can be like a twisted mirror in which I see a true reflection of myself.
I think the best PLs and strippers are sometimes really good at being self deceptive. I obviously am not. It would be interesting to hear from some of tuscls most battle hardened PLs like papi or rickdugan as to how the see themselves but they may be the least likely to enjoy or be as capable of honest deep introspection.
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Once you get to the point where you're pretty focused on getting the experience you want -- and that experience is highly sexual -- I think it becomes a bit harder to convince yourself that you're not like all the other guys. I think an everyday PL doesn't compare himself to others at all -- I really give no fucks whether I am or am not like any other guys, as long as I'm getting the experience I'm after. I really don't think the question of whether I'm like the other guys or not is important; I'm not defined by whether I'm different from them.
I haven't lost "me" in the process. I still am not looking to get over on a stripper. I don't treat her badly, I seek consent rather than to take advantage of her letting her guard down. I genuinely like my ATFs. I like socializing with strippers -- not just because it gets me hornier for the sex, but because I like it in and of itself.
This does open me up to manipulation. While I have never paid for car repairs, I have paid strippers' cable bills and grocery bills and club tip outs. My ATF once called from the Flight Club, crying, and told me she had not made any money and needed $350 to pay the club for several days' tip outs. She told me they would not let her work any more until she had paid. I drove to an ATM and then picked her up at the FC, gave her the money and took her home. I realize now than she needed the money for drugs. Oh well, it's only money.
I like the socializing and I like the sex. I've certainly been played but all in all I'm happy with my stripper relationships.
Yes, some of them try to take advantage of my niceness. It doesn’t last very long past my first “no thank you” in response to some outrageous offer or request.
I agree with 25. The key is balance. I went through a period when strippers were 100% of my sex life and while it was a fantastic time in many ways, it was ultimately the most pathetic time of my strip club life because I had no balance. You should take the time to find a civilian woman (or women) to satisfy much of your sexual needs. Then go to strip clubs for the rest of whatever you don’t get from her (or them). Just don’t look for all, or even most, of your sexual and romantic needs from strippers.
Strippers mostly don’t want more than than I have to offer, and in fact actively discourage it.
Then why do so many people show up on TUSCL, have their little run at gazing into the abyss, then leave when it stares back?
Ya. I think the fact that you think "am I like the other guys" is an important question, is actually the telling point
I've had very long conversations with my CF over whether or not it really matters if the girl is a complete bitch and unlikable in real life. Our conclusion, if she shows the customer a good time without allowing her true self to come out, then it really shouldn't matter.
My CF is super sweet. And to her I'm special. Or are we?
You’ve got it well under control, and you know very well how to play in the big leagues.
The hole in my life that I tried to fill when first going to strip clubs is that I wasn't constantly surrounded by as many naked women as I wanted to be surrounded by. Period. It wasn't about social interaction. I have a regular social life and didn't need the companionship. It was purely sexual. Over time I've come to enjoy talking to hot girls who pretend that everything I say is completely awesome and worth listening to, and now I'm accustomed to that. So I don't think I've been filling a hole at the strip clubs, I think I've been creating one.
What are your thoughts on that PaulDrake?
@Subraman I don't really care that we are all alike per the point I made, I'm just making a point to PaulDrake as OP of this thread that no PL is fundamentally any different than another. The guy that pays a stripper just to watch her on stage is no different than the guy that takes her to VIP for FS. Both are paying a stripper to satisfy a "need".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLrpBLDW…
^ no fail in that point that you left out.
Valid statement but that’s exactly why many PLs go to a club in the first place. It’s a fantasy from their daily life. Yeah they know it’s fake but for the 2 hours they’re in there they forget about that and all the problems in their real life and enjoy the show. It’s no different than a teen diving into a video game.
@ei8ht_Ball - I would say from your self description that you found in your positive social interactions with strippers that there is definitely something missing in your life. It could be as simple as you aren't getting enough emotional support from your significant other. Or you could be one of those guys who's wife is always nagging or otherwise negative.
@SirLapdancealot - Yes I would agree a guy that comes in for a beer once a year and tips the stage is fulfilling a need. But that guy doesn't have something deeply "wrong" with him.
Almost everyone starts there. I spent plenty of years in the "I'm different from the other guys" zone, and the girls played me like a fiddle. If you've got some self-awareness, and also allow yourself to more single-mindedly pursue your desires without feeling guilty about it, that tends to go away
The fact that I can get a stripper to suck my dick at the SC is 100% real, 0% fantasy. She actually sucks my dick, I actually climax. You're delusional if you think this real-life experience is difficult to attain. It's 100% real.
The fantasy part is that she's not disgusted by the whole thing.
Still, that leaves a LOT of pretty awesome reality. I come for the reality but I am glad for the fantasy LOL
**And Twenty quickly responded with this more or less perfect response: "Find some balance in your life then you don’t need to be like all of the other guys."**
I can't speak for Papi, but from my perspective (and as much as I dislike giving him credit for anything) twenty hit it dead on. Now I don't really know "the other guys" enough to know if I am like them or not. But if the demographic ITCs is similar to this board, then maybe I'm not like them simply because my circumstances are different. Maybe in another 15 years from now I'll need more of the familiarity, human contact, approval, etc., that some guys seek, but as a man with a full house my cup overfloweth right now on that front. Again, IDK.
The belief that some guys aren't capable of introspection, simply because they don't enjoy clubs the same way that you do, is fallacious. When I lay it out like I see it, I'm really doing just that. I'm sorry if that reality is less palatable than the notion that I'm experiencing some form of self-denial, but it is what it is. ;)
Yes - it's a rotating group of interchangeable women that go out of their way to make me feel like royalty. One could say that this is missing from just about every man's life, though I wouldn't really call it a need, and I never would have realized how much I appreciate it if I hadn't started going to clubs for a different reason.
"It could be as simple as you aren't getting enough emotional support from your significant other. Or you could be one of those guys who's wife is always nagging or otherwise negative."
Actually, my wife is better than any woman I've ever met at a strip club, it's just that through clubbing I've learned things about variety that no man will ever get from one woman. But I still love my wife above all else.
I'm glad you mentioned this though, it sparked an idea for what I hope becomes an interesting discussion.
So ... warning, more philosophical thoughts. Feel free to PM me here, or just read this below and what-not. To the rest of the guys in the thread, hey, don't tell me "TLDR" I knew that already. :)
Well, to the original post-er -- I hear ya. I personally spent a lot of my life using strip-clubbing as a "crutch," a way to get some kind of female interaction which (so I rationalized) otherwise I was "unable" to receive. And it's true, the experience is, in some ways, the ONLY way that I would get people who are female, with those super-hot bodies, to crawl all over me with relative impunity and in such quick short time-frames, as I would experience in the strip-club. But it's also true that something MORE enjoyable, though different, can be had via other venues and other experiences, and it's furthermore also true that something JUST AS enjoyable can sometimes be had for less money and experienced outside of strip-clubs.
Nevertheless, I spent some large part of my life thinking about these same issues. I would hem and haw over them, knowing I was deceiving myself, knowing I was unable to deceive myself. I would "write my journal" to myself in the form of posts on TUSCL (or a host of other internet bulletin boards). In fact, I initially was given my internet nick-name for use on adult-oriented websites because of this propensity of mine. Can't recall where, was it TUSCL? Club Hombre? Ignatz-Micers? Big Doggie? TER? On one or another of the many adult-oriented bulletin-boards such as this one, someone else said something like "Dude all you ever do is write long books that nobody reads! We should call you the book guy!" So I took it up.
So, if you do a TUSCL search WAY back, if you can figure out how, you'll find some old old posts by me that discuss similar topics. And come to similar non-conclusions. And then repeat themselves. It was a heart-wrenching time for me, in some ways. I will concede that I was likely "addicted" to the act of going to strip clubs -- though that involved, in one way or another, the thrill of spending money for a service (the mere act of having a fistful of $20 bills in my hand could be almost an erotic turn-on, because I knew what it portended); and the addiction to alcohol that inevitably went with the clubbing (I still very seldom ENJOY myself in a club the way that I did when I allowed myself to get totally plat-flastered wasted in them).
One of my solutions was to move on from attending strip clubs. I chose to go on a no-clubs drought, which I succeeded in observing for a full five years. I had been attending clubs since, roughly, 1992 or so; straight through to 2012 or so; so, it adds up to two decades, give or take. Then I simply quit going. I had tried to do this several times previously and failed (by which I started to realize, I was "addicted" in the classic sense).
Then I managed to "succeed" by means of some new tactics. Beating the "addiction" to strip clubs required, among other supports, an internet site for defeating internet-porn-addiction (I found it difficult to deal with the assumptions behind it; too much was based on pseudo-science of the evolutionary-psychology and therefore never-verified-by-experiment kind; and there was too high a quotient of fundamentalist preaching going on, of Christian Protestant sort or not). I also had a new lifestyle going on in which I was creating better social outlets for myself. I also was growing older and no longer believed I "deserved" sexual contact with hot-enough women. I had simply grown out of my early-adulthood DEMAND that women be hot enough for me (a task which North America fails at regularly; viz., the fact that I didn't have much of an addiction whenever I worked abroad -- generally Northern Europe -- because the people I was meeting were less obese, consequently the women I felt "free" to chase were also physically ADEQUATE for me, whether or not I actually succeeded in the chase). I had also begun to grow out of my addictiveness-prone period of life. Most counselors, social workers, and other aid-givers will tell you that a young male's addictive behavior PROBABLY has a "shelf life" and that he PROBABLY will simply age out of it. Well, that happened with me. And, finally, I began to take (for other, though related, reasons) an SSRI. The selective serotonin-reuptake inhibitor (initially Luvox, IIRC; now the generic version of Prozac called fluoxetine) simply "ate up" my cravings. I no longer "had to" do anything that previously I felt I "had to" do, including (but not limited to) attending strip clubs, binge drinking to excess, complaining about how women manipulated me and treated me badly, etc. etc..
I came back to strip clubs after that five-year hiatus, having adequately convinced myself that the "addiction" part was under control (if indeed ever there had been such a thing going on, it can't really be proven). I now "use" strip-clubbing attendance for fun, and enjoy it, and only go when I want to. I don't really feel "compelled" as much as I used to. And the alcohol certainly doesn't control me, although (as mentioned above) it does to some extent control whether or not I'm enjoying my strip-clubbing experience as much as I used to.
I don't denigrate other guys who go to clubs. I defend like hell their right to their own sexual and adult-entertainment-oriented choices. I think prostitution, strip-clubbing, whacking off, and all the other related stuff, are all victimless crimes (as long as trafficking, and unwillingly forced participants, are eliminated from the equation). Therefore, I think the government has NO business regulating or precluding it (and, in fact, the surest way to increase the ONE associated problem, of trafficking of unwillingly forced participants, is for the government to drive the businesses underground by trying to regulate or preclude it). I'm a staunch supporter of strip-clubbing's right to exist.
Frankly, I believe a good HALF of the guys who participate regularly in TUSCL, whether discussions or reviews, are people who are conflicted in some way or other with the whole concept of strip-clubbing. They probably agree with me in that whole previous Libertarian paragraph, but still think to themselves (as I often did), "shit man if ONLY I could get me JUST ONE chick who is AS FURKIN' HOT as the chick on the pole right now, then I would NOT NEED TO BE HERE IN A STRIP CLUB" and furthermore "I'd probably put up with her girlie shit, just to create a mutually supportive, decent relationship with her and SHE probably would like it JUST AS MUCH AS ME." For me, then, it came down to how I perceived myself as "lacking pick-up skills," not lacking RELATIONSHIP skills. I always felt I could be a just-fine boyfriend, if only the girls I was getting together with were hot-enough and stopped the whole obese-North-American thing. I also felt that, although I could probably be a just-fine boyfriend IF the relationship WERE STARTED UP by some instigating factor, nevertheless I could probably NOT figure out HOW to start up the relationship (and here I would blame women for picking "the wrong guys," how hot chicks "only go out with assholes" whereas I believed of myself I was "too nice to get laid" and so on and so forth).
My self-perceptions were about not being able to get what I needed and wanted, nothing was sufficient, and it was the fault of "the system" and the "other people" in it. My solution, however, was NOT to learn to work the system better. I didn't develop pick-up skills, or become someone who could control the feelings of hot-enough chicks, that I could "cause" them to wish to date me. I did indeed try try try to develop thse skills, in all the sensible and not-so-sensible manners. Eventually, though, I simply grew out of the need for the women. It was fluoxetine pills, it was age, it was kicking the addiction. It was not becoming a pick-up guru. My solution was not, to get what I wanted. It was, to no longer want what I thought I couldn't have.
So, that's my story. It is only tangentially related to yours. But it might give you some perspective.
He also clearly didn't read those historical posts carefully. Buzzed is not the same as falling down drunk and being real is not the same as being difficult. But I guess sometimes nuance can be lost in the noise.
But back to the topic, I'll never criticize how another grown man spends his entertainment $$. I just think that club regulars are a bit more diverse than what was being suggested in the opening.
other guys are not able to consistently shower 10k on the bad hoes every week
I agree with somebody above that it’s a two way street, and dancers do the same “not like the others” thing as well. Or even the civie girl who comes into the strip club (or this discussion board) and declares being different/better as well.
But I suspect that over time, the judgement doesn’t completely fade. Rather, it just gets reduced. Even from seasoned PLs on this board.
Recently, there was some flaming going on here about the TJ GFE FS vs LDKs in the hometown.
Also, the whole point of the two_bits troll* was to make fun of 25 for his preference in sugar style relationships (except 25 wasn’t as condescending about it :p)
Before I got active on the discussion board, I didn’t consider stigma as a two way street. I viewed clubs as being the place strippers got the brunt of the slut shaming and customers got out of it scotch free. Now I’m not too confident about that anymore.
*Come back two_bits! I miss you. :(
My 2.5 cents (and possibly worth twice that!)
Could strip clubs still exist if that were true?
These 2 takes (posted by the TrapBaby troll) are are posted as being joint components of the same “truth.” But they’re separate and not both true, at least I think not as applied to me. The first isn’t true for me. I fucking love the club and (most visits) and if I didn’t enjoy it I wouldn’t go. The second is full truth or pretty damn close to it.
My first phase as a monger was amazement. I was stunned by the eyefulls of naked hotness of beautiful girls and bodies that paraded for 2 songs every 5 minutes on stage. I was a rail sitter (sometimes with pals, sometimes solo), partially to be close to the action and partially to use rail as a shield to not have to deal with girls I didn’t want to get dances from. I enjoyed the hell out of this phase but I moved on from this phase.
Second phase was abandoning the rail for a table (again, sometimes with pals, sometimes solo) and becoming a non-bitch. I summarize this as my she likes me, she really likes me, phase (delusional) where I caught feelings for a few despite the no-duh knowledge it’s a fantasy. Still fun. Being with hot girls, especially the fun and funny ones, is fun, delusional or not.
I’m now in my third phase, which is go for and get the experience I want, having fun doing it, while being almost entirely non-delusional (that last one is sometimes elusive). Getting the experience I want involves test driving a fair amount to determine whether she’s a girl I want to spend more money on (which was also the case in phase two). This is my favorite phase so far and I enjoy it, though it lacks the stunned amazement of phase one, which was great.
So back to the troll’s purported truisms. Is it enjoyable - hell yes, or I wouldn’t go, though there is an addiction component to it. Is it fantasy? - hell yes, which is no doubt why it’s enjoyable. Is it delusion? - it sure can be, and it was in phase two, and hopefully it never is again.
Speak for yourself Paul. ;)
If you or anyone else on here feels shame for messing around in strip clubs, that's a YOU thing. Don't project your own self loathing and insecurities on others.
Would some people disapprove if they knew about my club trips? No doubt, but at the same time, I might not approve of everything they do to get off either. Familiarity breeds contempt, especially when it involves sexual matters.. Some things are just meant to be private.
I’m far from unique in my strip club interests, and I don’t have an issue with being another horny guy looking to fuck hot dancers. The services I enjoy aren’t unique.
I’m sure there is something I’m running from - in my trips to clubs (and my calls to escorts/whores). I stopped seeing a therapist and psychiatrist years ago, as I was primarily seeing them to placate my ex-wife’s concerns regarding my self destructive behavior. As a result, I doubt that I will discover my reasons for continually looking for filthy women.
I’m oddly ok with being part of the horny crowd. As a youth, I thought it was vitally important to be unique and special. However, I’m fine with being an average dude now.
Extending my troll examples: some of the most reaction inducing trolls on this board are the ones who shame PLs for doing their thing.
1. SJG stating that buying dances is for chumps. I don’t think I need to mention his controversy.
2. Nicole1994 and her rants about stuff like “I’m not going to dance because I contribute to misogyny”
3. Phatboy/Trapbaby ranting against “Tricks”
There’s nowhere near the same backlash from other trolls, like Trish wanting donkey dick. Or DaddyTricks/Lilballer pimping (before phatboy), or Mamisan offering cat fried rice. Or txtittyfag going out of his way to insult others directly.
I’ll have to check up on old posts, but I don’t think even Toychaser received the *same amount* of backlash for his violence/rape loving persona.
The most attention getting trolls are the ones who can most effectively play on an existing insecurity.
That’s also the reason that this board despises SW as much as it does. There is a certain shaming tone on there as well that continues to bother board members here, even when users such as Chili Palmer explain why to not take it seriously.
Although in this forum, being "entirely non-delusional" puts you higher on the food chain, I don't think there's any problem with the Subgenius philosophy of "we pull the wool over our own eyes". It's one thing to think "I got her number, she really loves me". It's another to let yourself enjoy the BJ without obsessing over how disgusting she is despite her awesome acting job. I don't think the ideal of stone-cold detached sperm dispenser is what leads to the most fun interactions in the club, either
Meant to say, without obsessing over how DISGUSTED she is. I assume she is not disgusting :)
I agree with you. I should clarify. I may be talking about taking shame to heart. But I *don’t* think that said shame is warrented.
I went because I always wanted to go since like puberty. I first went with a group of guys about a week after we all turned 18, so still in high school, I dragged them all there. I recall seeing a man in there visibly doing what looking like masturbation with his hand in his baggy jeans. so I figured, eh, I guess there's all kinds in here and never let it affect me nor project onto me. The visits have mostly been positive and a positive effect on me.
It's just a titty bar, guys.
I never really got any negative blow-back from it. And a lot of us guys would share TRs (trip reports) or club descriptions with one another in Home Room or First Period class. It sort of functioned like the Tuscl "locker room jock talk" on here, just in real life.
Not really insecurity! Just having fun and boys being boys!
With that said, I'm older and more established now, so a sort of keep-it-to-yourself approach (about sex) that @rickdugan and @twentyfive both recommend I do agree makes more sense these days for me. Esp. as I may and will likely do dicier, edgier behaviors in the future as my wealth or disposable income increases. Some things as just better kept private. It's respecting the feelings of others, esp. women in your life. I get that now. :)
Yeah, I’m with Rick on this one. Don’t project your feelings of shame on me.
I don't mean this cynically. Really, it's a straightforward statement of fact, but it certainly makes me look rather cynical. It goes like this -- sometimes, in my emotionally weaker moments, I allow myself to feel pathetic and loser-ish, because I start to believe that I "can't get a hot chick" into a relationship; and I start to believe that I "have to" go to strip clubs because that's the "only" way I can get "hot enough" women. That feeling of self-immolation, or of low self-esteem, DISAPPEARS when the sex-service is good. Whether or not the sex-service has been PAID FOR exorbitantly, or at a reasonable price, or at a great low price, or not at all, something just happens. The chick whom I was "utterly in luvvvvv" with a few moments ago becomes "wow she blows good head hope to pay her for this more often" and I lose the "luvvvv" need.
Just a thought. An important one, but ya know, it's elusive.
Don't fall in love with the girls. Fall in love with the experience they provide. And don't consume it in higher quantities than you should rightfully afford. That's all you have to do.