What is your idea of a “fair” relationship?

I think your on the money. If your going to make demands/act a specific way, but have different standard for your partner then it won’t last for long. Gotta almost assume that you are approving your partner to act similar to your actions. Just my opinion.

Sure. There are instances. Here is a hypothetical.

The couple consists of a high earning doctor and a secretary. It doesn't matter which is male or female or if they are the same sex.

Now say they have a young child and it is important to the couple that one of them be a stay at home parent because they see benefit in providing that to the child.

I can understand the doctor demanding to be the one that continues his/her career.

But, yes, both members have to perceive one another as equals. It also doesn't work well when one puts the other on a pedestal.

Fair is whatever the two in the relationship mutually agree as fair.

But for me I think it is hypocritical and "unfair" to expect something of your SO that you wouldn't expect of yourself. For example I can't and won't say shit to my wife if she wanted to go see a male stripper at a club and have him rub his dick all over her. That's what I do with a female stripper so I have no standing to expect anything different from her. If I can't expect or allow my wife to to the same, then I won't do it either.

“Is there any justification for making demands on another person that you yourself wouldn’t be willing to do?”

No.

"Is there any justification for making demands on another person that you yourself wouldn’t be willing to do?"

To elaborate on georgemicrodong's response; no justification is required.

@nicespicerack - a "fair" relationship is one where she meets all my demands, period, end of story. It's my way or the highway, bay-bay. Not a misogynist just being real motherfuckers. You feel me, Sporty spice?

1. oftentimes we engage in locker-room type humor around-here when we call each other names (could be you're misinterpreting some statements as being legit vs a joke)

2. give a specific example about what you mean (you seem to be tip-toeing around what you really wanna say)

I hold myself to the same-standard that I expect from a partner - thus why I choose to not be in a relationship since I currently don't wanna live to that standard/responsibility

Relationships are not and cannot be fair. Expecting them to be fair will destroy a marriage

@nicespice I believe in fair play on both sides, but we each bring something different to the table. There is really not so much equality as there might be if feelings weren’t involved. Sorry you don’t like blunt language, but if you try to sugar coat it, it’s leaving gaps large enough to drive a semi truck. The women that I am dating is quite content with the relationship that we are developing, as an I, the minute she tells me that I’m being unfair, at that point I’ll gladly discuss it with her, saying that there are some things for me that are non- negotiable. First and foremost among these items are that I don’t care what she did in the past, the future is mine as long as it lasts and I’ll never tolerate her grinding away on another guy. I made my stand based on hist, not because I care what you or anyone else thinks, and it’s right upfront, so she is free to reject that, but if you want what I have to offer than, you’ll accept, what I want, if that’s not fair I don’t know what is. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but I never participate in the pile in’s that occur here nor do I ever call specific posters vile names, nor iimpugn their character, I don’t care if you agree with my opinion, but I absolutely have a sense of fair play and am very aware, of the fact that you have every right to earn your living as you see fit, I don’t look down on you for it, but I just won’t accept it from my partner.

^ I posted to quickly, I forgot to add I have been in more than a few relationships in my 64 years on this earth, have been married a few times, and am far from perfect, but I do look down on stripper SOs for the reasons mentioned in the other thread, I’ll bet you I’m not the only one either.

Are you asking what makes a fair relationship or a successful one?? Because they're not the same thing. A fair relationship is where each partner has equal stakes and equal influence, whereas a successful one requires so much more.

@nicespice - Thanks for the post. I got to read your other thread.

It's a great relationship you've got. Not easy - with long distance and all. But great - as both are putting effort into it. In the end what matters is two consenting adults. Nothing else.

One can respect view of a man (or woman) who could not stand the thought of their partner being a stripper or prostitute. But to expect everyone to have that same view - or worse, make attempts to impose that kind of view is wrong. Just plain wrong. I suspect some people go that extra distance (attempt to impose) as part of justifying why they are what they are.

World is full of different people. Some men like dominating partners while some women like dominating men. And yet - many like equality.

"Two consenting adults (i.e., 18+)" - is where societies norms and morals should stop. Yet in today's world there are endless dialogues around "what two consenting adults are doing is wrong and I would never do it" ... could never understand that !??!

... always reminds me of this funny joke:

Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church... everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down inside they want some too.

My idea of a fair relationship is whatever is mutually agreeable between the partners, so long as it’s not abusive. What’s agreeable will vary from couple to couple.

Well said, Rogertex.

From reading your reply it sounds like you're speaking about twentyfive's response. While I do agree with him that I wouldn't be able to handle having a stripper girlfriend, I won't go the step he took to call those SO's of those strippers losers. It almost resembles SJG and his front room sessions. And how he calls anyone that doesn't use his approach to connecting with dancers via front room make out sessions and instead buys dances, chumps. People have different viewpoints about all kinds of stuff in life. Calling someone derogatory names because their views aren't in line with yours doesn't accomplish anything.

^^ ditto. Thanks TFP. And Huntsman stated nicely in one sentence.

Mean while I still see dancers letting abusive behaviors by other dancers slide, no denunciation here from the dancers, maybe you don't agree with me or just don't like the way I said it but you can't refute it, with any real logic.

BTW stripfighters your remark here was perfect and I wholeheartedly agree

Are you asking what makes a fair relationship or a successful one?? Because they're not the same thing. A fair relationship is where each partner has equal stakes and equal influence, whereas a successful one requires so much more.<

This post was specifically in response to 25, Gaca, and Warrenboy75 who made specific insults about the character of a person who would date a dancer in the other threads. So I’m throwing character questioning right back at them.

I know something like 4-8 others said “I personally couldn’t date a dancer.” But they left the insults out so I’m not concerned about them.

25 said twice that’s it’s not a diss on me. But I’d rather be insulted personally than hear a dig at my boyfriend, who would be included in that category of “losers.”

I don’t know what Warren’s background is, but both 25 and Gaca said they have someone special in their life. And yet they have no problems having fun with other women. Are those women losers as well? Especially if they stay at home knitting or whatever good girls do while letting them go play?

If the answer is “oh well, it’s impossible to be equal because people bring different qualities to the relationship”, then I want to hear what qualities equalize one way only polyamory.

And please give a better answer than “money.” The average “loser” of a female would find way more financial stability in being provided for from multiple men than a single man who can cut her off at any time.

The exception to what I said is maybe Dadillac, but that’s because that allowance was far beyond average. And she was given a choice to take it or leave it.

(Off topic, when I researched into qualities of the most successful sugar babies, they seem to be girls who call a guy a “boyfriend” and pretend to be monogamous when they’re not. Granted I say a lot of nonsense in my job, but at least customers know that my affection comes at $20 or $25 a song. It’s why I decided not to pursue the sugar baby route once I read about it.)

Good comments from other people on here, thanks.

Also, two bits might be the new troll who will have my affection after Nicole leaves me for San Jose Guy for good.

^ Difference being you want to have your cake and eat it too, you and I are coming at this from the exact opposite directions, you know your SO isn’t happy about you dancing, but unlike me he ain’t stepping up, just paying lip service is fine. I won’t settle and that might be a problem in the future, but my friend will not lose out, by humoring my wishes, and if she didn’t think what I have to offer is better than what she has, she’d tell me and we’d separate, like you said I must be a pretty good guy to attract a quality lady like she is.

@babyspice - Sure I date dancers (FWB only, no P4P), but keep in mind, I date model quality civvie girls as well, easily, and meet very sharp, good looking women daily, so unlike losers like Gaca and Warrenboy75, I’m fairly particular, and very picky about who I see, and have sexual relations with.

(Not sure who this 25¢ you're referring to is, is that some kind of dig on me?)

You gave descriptions before and I based the nice comments off of that. But by your logic if my boyfriend a loser no matter what then she is too.

I had one ex boyfriend who blatantly pulled the “I’m going to do what I want but you can’t” thing on it too. I went along with it because I was suffering through personal depression during that time. I ended up cheating on him behind his back. And then coming to my senses and ending it. A complete waste of time on both of our ends.

Besides, our situations aren’t exactly alike anyways. The reasons my boyfriend is okay with it temporarily is because, as he sees it, without the degree my opportunity cost is too high to quit. But that I can easily get myself in an environment with more money and suitable work conditions due to my intelligence. It might just be flattery on his end, lol, but I owe it to him to at least give it a good try. Plus I keep my dances to only dances.

And outside of crossing certain lines, I in turn allow him some flexibility as well. He can go to strip clubs himself. Or even flirt with others as long as it’s done in a friendly manner. In his overseas travel, he hung out with an (in his words) “adorable” bartender one time because they were both heading in the same direction. But the most he did was buy her food and have friendly chit chat.

So I at least give him the basic respect that he deserves. You on the other hand are just trying to make demands just cause in your life.

You are not the first male and certainly not the last to be like this. That’s why I had no problem starting to dance in the first place, because I had been in controlling relationships in the past. I figured the “cost” of becoming a dancer wasn’t that high.

I suspect that her going along with it is simple burnout, especially because are in the summer season. Maybe you can come out ahead in keeping things as you wish but just don’t count on it.

I suspect that if she does go with it then at first you will be happy with it as a conquest but in fact your views of her her will be lowered.

I think that it is impossible to label what is fair in a relationship.... because fair is different to each of us. I promise most if not all of the guys on here that have read my story would pass some sort of judgement on me for allowing it all to happen and they would be right, they would also pass some sort of judgement on the cunt of a TJ street walking whore that took advantage of me and they would be right in that also. The trick here is that it is not our place to judge.... what nice and her boyfriend have is acceptable to both of them then who cares what it is (I may have my opinions about it and my opinions are based on my experience) but it really does not matter. 25 and I have some similar beliefs and some differing beliefs.

At the end of the day what is fair is what you can live with

^ Thank you for that Dadilac it would be different, if these girls weren’t intentionally manipulative, and you are right some of what happened to you and me was our own fault, but that doesn’t excuse the actions of these scheming abusive women, best I can say is that those girls will get what’s coming to them eventually, and we’ll be able to live with the choices we make, as we aren’t out to harm others, can’t say the same about them.

@nice I won’t think about her as a conquest, you really are reading me wrong, if it works out it’s because we want it to(both of us). This topic touched on a very sore spot for me, sorry if you were offended, but I won’t apologize for being a normal man, with my own sense of where I stand in life. That’s all I really care to say at this point.

Nicespice’s original question was pretty simple: “Is there any justification for making demands on another person that you yourself wouldn’t be willing to do?” I don’t see how any rational person can say yes, but don’t think the answer to that question is susceptible to rational analysis. I thing it’s just a self evident truth that it is wrong to demand of others what you wouldn’t be willing do yourself. They key here is “demand.” If two consenting adults enter into a relationship that outsiders might view as asymmetric, no problem. But if you use coercion, whether physical, financial, or emotional, what possible justification can there be there for that?

My wife is bothered when I talk to a woman who is attracted to me. She doesn't care if I am attracted to them.

I am bothered if my wife talks to another guy who she is attracted to. But I don't care if the guy is attracted to my wife.

@nicespice - Is that fairly reciprocal or asymetrical?

paul. i had the same type of wife.

doctorevil - Are you really a doctor? This topic touched on a very sore spot for me (and I've been meaning to get it looked at). That’s all I really care to say publicly at this point.

^But they occasionally accompany you to seedy porn theaters. That’s reciprocal.

And when they do go to the porn theaters with you so they give you a reciprocal reach around while they paint your bowels

So 25 and I messaged each other and cleared up misunderstandings. I apologize for being harsh and jumping to conclusions.

@PaulDrake yeah I guess reciprocity is more of what happens action wise instead of feelings.

(Though the entitlement I was ranting about, from men or women, is very real and I would have no problems being savage in the future on that subject, lol.)

I want to answer the question that was directed to me.

I'm at the person I am seeing now at a strip club where she was a dancer. After some initial drama involving her kid and the guy she was seeing things have been going pretty well.

So let me qualify and answer your question.

"What is my idea of a “fair” romantic relationship?"

Like a relationship we're both people walk away feeling that it is a win-win mutually beneficial relationship. That doesn't mean that things are equal. It means that either party finds their desired value and benefits from the relationship.

When I go to the club I give a girl money she dances on my lap. That's not equal the dance is not the same as a $20 bill. And I'm not dancing on her lap for $20 in return. But we both received a value from our (albeit temporary) relationship.

so what's fair is that I get my emotional and physical needs met. And she might require something else maybe more financial security and emotional support (or whatever it is a Girl Wants from a guy). Guarantee you it's not going to ever be equal or the same but it will be an exchange where both parties receive something they value. That's the social exchange theory

so it's fair is I need a girl who loves me to be myself without being jealous and I allow her to be herself. And this is where screening and chemistry and shared values come in. Division of labor and gender roles and what not. what is fair is that I meet a girl who wants what I have to offer who has no problems with my way of being and and her way of being matching something I can tolerate and accept as well.

That being said any guy you can tolerate his woman being groped on at $20 or $30 at a time doesn't value his woman or his personal space and thus himself too much.

^^^And that's more of an observation than an insult. A multitude of reasons why people don't respect themselves as much as they should I don't judge I just report.

What is “being herself?” I’m just trying to figure out what value there could possibly be for a female to tolerate a one way open relationship. Most of the ones who pretend to, end up cheating themselves anyways. (Like I said somewhere earlier on here, that happened with me.)

So it’s high volume lapdancers you wouldn’t like? What about other kinds of dancers?

There’s this one club that has a core group of dancers who sit around a large table area (usually empty cause the customers have to pay ~$350 to sit there) and watch the entrance like hawks. They wait around for the high roller to come in so that they can score a cabana with him. I think these girls are the ones who charge like $700-1,000 for their time too whereas most others are okay with $500. And the club itself has minimal extras too.

And I’d come at you more, but I’m in a good mood today. Maybe I can ask my baby Nicole to fight you.

We're not fighting, just passionately debating our position :)

Nice.... If I were your boyfriend, I would not be visiting clubs, I would be supporting you to the extent that you did not have to grind on strange cocks to pay your school bills, I don't care if it is low extras or no extras, the only one I want to see you naked is me and your doctor.... That is just me, I'm old school like that. I cannot imagine being in love with someone knowing that for 20 bucks any one of the guys on here can look at and grope the woman I love, maybe that makes me insecure but I dont give ashit that is how I am.....

So when I look at a man that is ok (not that he likes it but he tolerates it) with the love of his life being groped for 20 bucks, I don't have a high opinion of him. Maybe he does not make enough to support the two of them or maybe he does not love them enough to keep them out of that situation, I really don't know and my job is not to judge him or her. But I am responsible for my actions and I could not tolerate my girlfriend stripping.... If I offered to help and she choose to keep dancing then I would have no choice but to move on

^^^ Unlike Daddy-lacks Game (sorry it was too easy to make that joke at your expense)

I'm not trying to save these hoes. You're correct when you said I'd could possibly tolerate more at lower volume, classier and more respectful clientele, and properly compensated for her time. Then I'd more than encourage her to be fleecing them fools. But $20 a pop and grinding on grimy motherfucker who don't know where to keep their hands... Hell nah. Absolutely not.

this should not be a boyfriend/ girlfriend issue. and not even a possibly of any thing like that. it is a stripclub fantasy. for the moment.

"So 25 and I messaged each other and cleared up misunderstandings.'

Did you massage his sore spot?

My take on the original "fairness" question is when both people show each other basic respect and look out for each other's interests to a certain extent. Having hostage negotiators for each side hammer out an agreement that each side signs off on as being fair sounds like a total buzzkill. Better to collaboratively move things to a place where both sides are more fulfilled than before they met, imo.

For instance, if san_jose_guy ever finds The One, he'll probably know because he'll finally be inspired to start calling around to lawyers in the yellow pages to work out the legal formalities of having a group of guys pump loads into her down at the clubhouse. Then there's GACA and Dadillac who would offer the Roxanne deal.

For my part, I have had better results inspiring women to drop other guys by my personal warmth and knowledge of South Park rather than making demands. I think it's fair for her to feel out the actual deal being offered and whether she wants to accept.

I pull back if she isn't offering what I'm looking for, though. I don't find it fair to persist in a relationship only to harbor resentment because the other person is incapable or unwilling to meet your expectations.

^Just like Daddillac I look down on guys that can't take care of their bidness, that includes any guy who says he cares about a women that is ok with his lady being with other guys, at the point she became my GF, she needs to find a different way to make a living, even if I need to support her, and I am fine, with the same standard being applied to me.

"I pull back if she isn't offering what I'm looking for, though. I don't find it fair to persist in a relationship only to harbor resentment because the other person is incapable or unwilling to meet your expectations."

So it's your way or the highway?

" I’m just trying to figure out what value there could possibly be for a female to tolerate a one way open relationship." --nicespice

As long as the guy is upfront about it, and she accepts it I see no issues with this arrangement. Now the open relationship has to be agreed upon what that means. For me, that means seeing other women, flirting, talking, kissing, sleeping with etc., however, doesn't mean doing whatever the hell I want and not taking her emotions/needs into consideration. It means at this point I'm not monogamous.

Now it's up to her to choose to accept those terms; to treat her well, to have fun, to wine and dine her knowing that I'm not doing that solely with her. If so great, if not I wish her good luck and we don't play the game of wasting either of our times. It's better to know what you want early, than pretend to be something and find out later, or worse find out behind your back.

Like you said, you're cheating both yourself and your partner.

As far as dating a stripper, I'm not vehemently against it as some guys here. It wouldn't be easy, but if she checks out every other thing I'm looking for, then I'll be willing to look over my own insecurities to date her. The most important being trust. Can I trust her she's not doing extras? Can I trust her she's SSing all these other guys but is being honest with me?? Can I trust I am the only guy supporting her the way a BF should??

I find it short-sighted to find somebody who's beautiful, smart, kind, funny, etc everything I look for in a partner to throw it away because she chooses to strip. Now, will I find someone like that in the strip club?? Who knows.

So it's your way or the highway?

More like Baby won't you come my way

youtube.com

GACA... that was my game.... not any more, I still go to clubs but now just to find some one to fuck maybe once or twice.... if they want to talk to much then I am moving on.

Reminds me of the story.... the guy asks the woman if she will have sex with him for 1 million dollars, the woman replies yes.... so the guy says how about 10 dollars, the woman responds 10 dollars? what kind of woman do you think I am? The guy says we established what kind of woman you are now we are just haggling over the price

The fat lying fucking cunt waitress at Flashers told me two true things in the entire 2 years I visited that club, otherwise she was completely useless. First she asked what I expected to find in a strip club, a good woman? Second she said that if I let it get to me I would become a bitter old man.... I am bitter as hell, I assume every stripper is lying before I see her and I am at the club for one purpose.... to get laid by a whore that I wont feel guilty about fucking and do it for the least amount of money. I would feel guilty fucking and walking away from a civilian woman that is expecting a call the next day so I don't bother with them for sex.

@Daddillac and@ GACA. I’m not as angry as you guys, not that I fault you for your anger, I just can’t allow myself to be that bitter, for the sake of my sanity and my children, even though my life hasn’t been what I envisioned, it’s been pretty remarkable and I have been lucky for the most part. I am not nor will I ever be Cap’n-Sav-A-Ho I don’t care what anyone else thinks, I will always strive to do the right thing, because so many have been good to me over the years, the few bad things that have happened are just short instances, and I have mostly learned from them. I’m a firm believer in that old definition of insanity, doing the same thing will yield the same results no matter what you think, so when I find something not working for me I change it up.

I'm past my anger.... I have a fairly productive life, great relationship with kids, a lot of friends, and I date some civvies..... I am just bitter when it comes to strippers and other sex workers.... however I get along well with them as long as we have boundaries. I had a stripper I had 1 VIP with stop me in the club recently and ask for help on her rent.... she did not offer anything in return so I passed.

a 'fair' relationship? as an old fart without the charm of gawker... ain't no 'fair' relationship.

Whenever people argue about what is right or wrong it almost always boils down to preference and decorum. In the real world, questions about what is fair in a relationship or what someone will tolerate in a relationship are answered by the heart and not the mind. I've already seen plenty of guys who say they will never let a woman walk over them, but then they start dating a particular girl and they end up doing the very things they used to make fun of other guys for doing.

Would I ever date a stripper or prostitute? If I was infatuated with her, than probably. Would I be OK with her continuing her job? My mind might say yes, but if I saw her in person grinding naked on another man's body than I may suddenly change my mind.