I just saw it on the nightly news - I was furious how those air-cops basically assaulted someone 2x+ their age - some of these fucking cops use their badges to for legal thuggery - I fucking hate abuse of power - those cops should have done to them what they did ro that passenger, or even better have it done to their loved ones (their dad being treated that way).
What the hell would you think would happen in a world where something spreads like wildfire as soon as it happens? It's as if they have zero understanding that while often simply annoying and full of empty threats, sometimes social media justice can be very damaging to a company's reputation. I've got to imagine they're in for a rude awakening.
I've got a couple personal trips coming up that I won't be considering United (it helps that they're often not the cheapest). I also have a work trip in a few months and will specifically being requesting not to be booked on United by our corporate travel agency.
Oh, I just watched the video. Perhaps the joke was inappropriate. I haven't flown in 15 years but I recall it used to be "fun" in the 80s, or at least enjoyable. Looks like the airlines have removed any sense of decency flying used to have. That absolutely sucks.
Too many cops are allowed to get away w/ too-much, and many of them have too-low an IQ for the amount of power they are given.
About 3 years ago a Miami-Dade cop was doing over 100 mph on the freeway in his cruiser off-shift heading home - a female highway patrol officer pulled him over and actually arrested his ass - the police unions were outraged at the speeding cop getting arrested , as a result the highway patrol officer started receiving death treats from other cops and to add insult to injury (IMO) the police unions were so outraged that they manageed to make it that police officers in their cruisers could not be pulled over by other cops no matter what they are doing, unlike an avg citizen - many cops think the law does not apply to them.
Reports say the flight was overbooked, but actually they needed to free up four seats for United employees to get to the plane's next destination. Not good planning on United's part and the situation spun out from there including a completely tone-deaf public relations response after the situation went viral.
This practice of kicking passengers off airplanes that have already purchased a ticket is super-douche and should not be allowed - I'm all for free-enterprise and little gov, but free-enterprise is composed of people and people can be assholes thus their has to be limits to tjmhe freedom of free-enterprise to where the powerful are not allowed to trample on the rights of the non-powerful.
They were bumping off passengers to make room for airlines employees, fuck that, they whould have bought tickets for the employees on another airline.
Despicable! Heads should roll for this kind of "customer orientation". There are a lot of ways they could have covered those 4 slots they were making room for.
Papi chulo.... I remember this incident you speak about. I think about 1.5 to 2 years ago in Colorado a cop was pulled over and arrested for drunk driving. That one stuck and was prosecuted
I never understood why stories that affect just one person get such a disproportionate amount of media time, while stories that affect millions often get ignored altogether.
@dougster: Relatability is a heavy contributor. So many of us have had a brush with overbooked flights at one point or another, directly or indirectly. Not only is it obnoxious, but its a symbol of corporate greed, which so many of us are wired to show public disdain over. To see it taken to this extent and to be able to say that it could be me next time strikes a much stronger nerve than some things that have a more legitimate, profound and broad impact.
This just shows how incompetent United Airlines is. If they overbook and need more seats, they should have a counter at the entrance and stop the last 4 passengers from boarding. They can say plane is full before being allowed to go on board. If they don't have recourses or don't want to spend money counting, a simple clicker counter that people walk through could do the job as well. Someone should know before passengers board the plane how many seats there are and how many seats they need.
Actually I would think a computer could count passengers by visually counting. Counting people could be automated and number of seats should be known. Airlines could also offer more incentives rather than get all the bad PR. $800 plus free pepperoni and hamburger pizza might get a hungry guy off the plane.
I spent 42 years working for a major air line and I can sympathize with United for the choice they had to make. First of all air lines over book flights because passengers make reservations and then never show up for the flight. They keep computations on how many no shows they average on certain flights and then set up an over sale limit to cover that. Some times they get burned and then have to buy off some passengers. If they didn't do this they would have lost revenue in a very competitive business.
I'm sure that those 4 employees had to get to their destination to cover a flight and without them that flight and maybe others would have to be cancelled. Thus stranding 100's of other passengers.
In this case they couldn't buy there way out. So they had to remove passengers involuntarily. Unfortunately the poor passenger that got randomly selected refused to give up his seat. What could United do other than call for the police to remove him?
I never had to deal with the public in my job but I did make decisions all day long that affected the poor passenger service agents. I'm glad to be retired.
What could they do? Double the incentive for someone to give up their seat. If that didn't work, do like the agents did in Greenville SC to bust a strip club, keep doubling the offer until someone bites.
@shadowcat - if they no show, don't they lose their ability to change flights with just a change fee....meaning the airline got their money regardless of whether they were there or not? Seems like there are already safeguards to make sure no shows don't matter.
I didn't hear they doubled the offer one time. I still think they could have doubled it another time or two. That's probably why I heard they didn't offer enough. I heard someone say everyone has a price. Would have been easier to stop passengers from boarding in the first place though in my opinion after reaching x number of passengers.
The way that man was treated whom had bought a ticket was barbaric, that bumping-off shit has to change - IDK the details but it seems airlines want the *extra* $$$ to be maid from a no-show at the expense of passengers.
lol, I thought of a solution airlines might like but many people would not. I deleted the comment. Airline CEO's aren't paying me any money to help them.
a21985 - ticketing, reservations, passenger service were never my part of the business but my understanding was that businessmen will make reservations on more than one flight or air line in case there is a cancellation or a change in their business plans. They are the guilty ones.
shark - I am sure that United did not become aware of the last minute need to get the crew members on that flight until after the flight was boarded.
Ahh, someone would probably think of this without me, airlines could add an overbook fee to ensure you don't get kicked off the plane if overbooked. Restrict some seats from being sold with the extra fee.
People buy hotel tickets, event tickets, connected flight tickets, all under the premise that the airline will keep their end of the purchase agreement to deliver the passengers to their destination on time. I understand the need to maximize profits, but maybe airline just need to accept the empty seats instead of overbooking flights. If some people don't show up for their flight, the airline could keep some or all of the ticket price (don't they already?), and I never see a shortage of standby customers. This practice of overbooking and then bumping paying passengers should not be accepted.
United's CEO said he "apologized for having to re-accommodate these customers." "Re-accommodate"? This is new speak for bloodying and dragging off a plane a customer who had done nothing wrong. The CEO supports what was done.
As always, there's probably more to the story that shows that passenger in a less flattering light. Judging by the way he was screaming like an animal, I doubt he was a physician as he claimed. It's also likely he antagonized the cop to no end prior to what we saw in the video.
Some food for thought CNN reports that 45,000 passengers were bumped involuntarily in 2015. That tells me that the airlines need to get their shit together. Also CNN reports that Jet Blue does not subscribe to this practice. Seems to me like United's apology is only because they are getting bad publicity, this appears to be standard practice throughout the airline industry'.
If I remember correctly DOT does have some regulations on how quickly the airline has to get bumped passengers to their ultimate destination.
Companies should have a minimum amount they have to offer and a requirement that they give it in cash or prepaid card, not a voucher for future flights. I generally don't take these offers to stay but I might if my hotel were covered up to some reasonable amount for the area and I got $800 or $1K on top.
A number of years ago I did get stuck with my ex in the DCA because of a flight delay and the noise ordinance. She actually managed to talk the ticket agent into covering a night at a Crystal City hotel and getting us on a flight the next day. I can't even remember how she managed that.
On the other hand, I got stuck in Charlotte once and basically got nothing. Unfortunately I was tired and got the first room I could. It sucked.
I don't know why some people on here are so willing to forgive cops. No disrespect gammanu95, but I believe many cops are good guys but if the government violates your rights there is a 90%-plus chance that the government agent doing that will be an overzealous cop.
And believe me, M.D.'s or D.O.'s can be every bit as childish as anybody else. Maybe the guy was an asshole to the cop. I actually think he might be more willing to be an asshole if he was a physician. After all, many physicians probably think they are better than cops (or the airline personnel).
Under these circumstances it is the cops job to remove somebody without assaulting them even if they were an asshole to the cop. After all, the guy was TSA screened (so he had no weapons) and if I remember correctly he was pushing 70. The chance an unarmed 70 year old could inflict any harm to a cop is essentially zero. It was the cops job to get the guy off as seamlessly as possible. The cop ultimately didn't do his job.
I agree that the cop could have used better de-escalation tactics and conflict management skills than he did. I don't believe that passenger was a doctor. Through my wife's career, I know many, many, physicians. Every single one would have been too proud to scream like a bitch and be dragged down an aisle like that guy was. Furthermore, the cops have him a lawful order, and he physically resisted. When you physically resist a cop giving you a lawful order, you are giving him carte blanche to bust your lip. The smarter practice is to comply, get his name, rank, and badge number, and the work through the system to get satisfaction and justice. Again, any decent MD would know this. So what if he was 70? At that age, he should have known better.
The conflict between the cop and the passenger is incidental to the root cause: Bullshit profiteering practices by the airlines which regularly screw paying customers. That's why I hate flying.
They could have left it up to the other passengers and said hey we offered this customer xxx and we arent leaving until he takes xxx or someelse does. Problem solved because he will be shamed until leaving or someone else will.
I used to fly a lot, and my dad (an attorney) said once you're in your seat, they can't tell you to leave provided you're not interfering with the flight crew. And if they try and force you, it's an assault. Apparently he was wrong as far as the 'they can't do anything'; but the result of the lawsuit from this would buy a hell of a lot of OTC. When airlines use Gestapo tactics, something is amiss.
Mixed feelings about this. Don't think they should have drug the guy off the plane but I think it's pretty pathetic that he felt he should cause such a scene.
I've long felt the airlines in this country get away with a lot of bullshit, too much in fact.
Southwest tweeted: "We beat our competition, not you."
LOL
United has announced a new seating option on all flights: First class, Business, Economy, and Hunger Games
I notice that three other people understood and got off without a commotion, but the douchebag "doctor", so fucking self-important than others caused a scene. Too bad he didn't get a few limbs broken. The passengers should have been able to each throw punch to his face before he was removed. Lets hope the stock falls a lot and then all y'all millionaire's here can buy in on the cheap, because this will blow over by Friday.
Apparently, he really is a doctor, MD pulmonologist. He also had his medical license revoked for drug addiction and ethics violations, including sleeping with his patients. Based on his behavior, United should demand a drug test. And look, fucking progressives are already saying he was targeted for being Asian.
On a serious note, since many of us PLs are frequent fliers, has anyone ever voluntary accepted one of the offers? Can you negotiate/bid for the buyout amount/hotel stay?
Never understood why an airline would overbook a flight.
If I pay for a seat, and it's non-refundable, I better damn well have a seat on the plane. They have my money in exchange for a seat on their plane. There is no reason for an airline to oversell their seats if it is a sold out flight.
If someone wants to get off and get a voucher for a flight to Hawaii or somewhere else that is worth more than the flight they are currently on, then let them do it. But the airlines should not have the right to kick you off a flight that you paid for and have a seat on it. It's complete bullshit in my opinion. United Airlines deserves the bad publicity they are getting.
@gammanu, I've volunteered to be bumped. If they ask for them I'll usually see if there's a later flight that makes sense and then go see what they're offering. Different airlines have different rules but you can usually negotiate to some degree. If they kick somebody off they have to give them 2 or 4 times the face value of the ticket, depending on when they'll get them to their destination. So that gives you some ballpark idea of what you can ask for.
Instead of offering a voucher for a future flight, they need to walk the aisle waiving $100 bills! Corporate pukes are flying on the company dime. They don't give a shit about a voucher. Give a road warrior a night of freedom from the wife and a pocketful of undocumented cash on the other hand ...
Cash is king! Surely some greedy fuck would pocket the cash and get home a day late after having dinner and hitting the local SCs on the airline's dime. I would have. Pay for my hotel, buy me dinner, rebook me first thing in morning and $500 cash for tasty pussy. I'm in!!
This is going to be my final comment on this subject. The trouble all started when the public demanded that the government give up regulating the air lines. Before deregulation the authority to fly from point A to point B had to be given by the Civil Aeronautics Board and the price for tickets was set by the government. There was no over booking or frequent flyer programs and the air lines only competed by providing better service.
The public got their way and the air lines were free to fly where ever they wanted and set their own fares. This prompted new air lines to pop all over the place offering cheaper fares. They had lower operating costs because all of the planes were brand new and all of their personnel were right off the street at willing to work for cheap wages. The majors of course had much higher operating costs and had to meet the competition. That's when service went down the drain.
Now I hear people crying to get the government to do more regulating. Glad I'm retired.
I agree with Shadowcat, deregulating the airlines was a huge mistake. They used to compete on service, because they could not drop below set minimum prices.
But this has gone far enough. As of now I am boycotting commercial air travel.
I will get around by ground transportation, rubber tired, steel wheels, bicycles, or general aviation.
I used to try and get bumped all the time, I got great amounts of free flights by holding out as the counter agent kept raising the voucher values. Once I got 3 roundtrips for free. Once a little old lady beat me out for the last voucher. Don't let a little old lady beat you. LMAO
Fun this was the #1 news story last night. Followed closely by Spicer's little screw regarding poison gas in WWII. Meanwhile Trump is sailing "an armada" over to Korea and no coverage at all. Ain't the media great?
@vinceygirl: did you work at all during your life or were collecting disability for your war injuries? Seems you always had nothing but free time. Including to hang around the airport and reschedule flights.
Shadowcat tells only half the story on deregulation. The US was the only country with privately owned airlines. You had Air France, BOAC, Lufthansa etc. that were all run by European governments. The US airlines were all going broke, so they petitioned the government to deregulate so they could compete. Competition meant lower fares, along with lower service. I used to fly on half empty planes before deregulation; now there's rarely an empty seat on any flight.
As in most issues, there is a happy medium and being a capitalist, I leave it up to the airlines to clean up their act. We currently have several business models: you fly cheap but have to pay for every little thing, or you can pay one price. Seat room is way too little, but some airlines address that too either with added fees or just a higher ticket price.
Spirit Airlines is always rated the worst...yet they fill every plane because it's the cheapest way to fly. That's how free markets work.
Not true, I am staying very close to home now, so it does not matter. But I do plan to be traveling greatly. For a number of reasons, but especially the ways which passengers on commercial flights are treated like prisoners now, I will not be using commercial air travel.
Even a small sail boat and a folding bicycle would be enough for me to move throughout the California coast with pleasure and ease. Any strip clubs right at the marinas?
More people like to sail south than north, as that is how the wind blows. So there are less people for the big boat races than for the trailer size races.
To go north, if not on the highway. Then either you sneak along going windward in the mornings, often on aux power, or you make big tacks, possibly getting 1/3 of the way to Hawaii. For myself, with adequate crew, this latter way looks the most attractive and the most fun.
Catalina 250 wing keel, with wheel steering and Honda 4 cycle outboard. Not sure if they are offering a trailer with it. It can trailer, not bad. But water ballast sits lower and is lighter and so it trailers easier. But I want fixed ballast.
Great way to get around costal California!
Could go to Ensenada. :)
Could go to Cabo San Lucas. :)
Lots of professional sailing bums in Cabo San Lucas. Out in the water everyday, but going for months without running aux power for either propulsion or battery charging.
for serious off shore use, always want the propane kitchen, not that diesel generator stuff.
Going north along California coast, say to San Francisco, usually means going windward. Doing it with just two tacks can mean getting as much as 800 miles from land. Lots of fun, but only if you are well prepared.
The US yacht building industry cratered with the 2008 crash. Catalina used to make many more models. Big boat dealer at Jack London Square in Oakland. But could just accept delivery in SoCal. And of course there are used ones all around.
Catalina has always seemed like a very capable by still sensibly priced make.
But distance sailing is an around the clock undertaking. Best to have trained up a crew on shorter outings.
Always need both storm sails, and a whole host of other backup and safety gear.
Oyster, made in the UK, very big. To go much bigger, need custom builder.
Marlow-Hunter, Florida, another builder which has always seemed sensibly priced, and has also gone through many upheavils. 50 Center Cockpit. Some people like Center Cockpit, some do not.
http://www.marlow-hunter.com/large-keelb…
I know there are two sides to every story. And I've known people who work in airport security. Some airline passengers are jerks. But I still say that United Airlines, once a highly regarded company, has at a minimum got a serious PR problem.
Well, they just kicked off 2 newlyweds down in Houston for sitting in the wrong seats, some guy was crashed out across their assigned seats so they sat elsewhere. Rather than waking up the guy, United kicked the newlyweds off the plane. Way to go, United.
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I've got a couple personal trips coming up that I won't be considering United (it helps that they're often not the cheapest). I also have a work trip in a few months and will specifically being requesting not to be booked on United by our corporate travel agency.
About 3 years ago a Miami-Dade cop was doing over 100 mph on the freeway in his cruiser off-shift heading home - a female highway patrol officer pulled him over and actually arrested his ass - the police unions were outraged at the speeding cop getting arrested , as a result the highway patrol officer started receiving death treats from other cops and to add insult to injury (IMO) the police unions were so outraged that they manageed to make it that police officers in their cruisers could not be pulled over by other cops no matter what they are doing, unlike an avg citizen - many cops think the law does not apply to them.
They were bumping off passengers to make room for airlines employees, fuck that, they whould have bought tickets for the employees on another airline.
I never understood why stories that affect just one person get such a disproportionate amount of media time, while stories that affect millions often get ignored altogether.
In other words #firstworldproblems.
I'm sure that those 4 employees had to get to their destination to cover a flight and without them that flight and maybe others would have to be cancelled. Thus stranding 100's of other passengers.
In this case they couldn't buy there way out. So they had to remove passengers involuntarily. Unfortunately the poor passenger that got randomly selected refused to give up his seat. What could United do other than call for the police to remove him?
I never had to deal with the public in my job but I did make decisions all day long that affected the poor passenger service agents. I'm glad to be retired.
shark - I am sure that United did not become aware of the last minute need to get the crew members on that flight until after the flight was boarded.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-…
Companies should have a minimum amount they have to offer and a requirement that they give it in cash or prepaid card, not a voucher for future flights. I generally don't take these offers to stay but I might if my hotel were covered up to some reasonable amount for the area and I got $800 or $1K on top.
A number of years ago I did get stuck with my ex in the DCA because of a flight delay and the noise ordinance. She actually managed to talk the ticket agent into covering a night at a Crystal City hotel and getting us on a flight the next day. I can't even remember how she managed that.
On the other hand, I got stuck in Charlotte once and basically got nothing. Unfortunately I was tired and got the first room I could. It sucked.
And believe me, M.D.'s or D.O.'s can be every bit as childish as anybody else. Maybe the guy was an asshole to the cop. I actually think he might be more willing to be an asshole if he was a physician. After all, many physicians probably think they are better than cops (or the airline personnel).
Under these circumstances it is the cops job to remove somebody without assaulting them even if they were an asshole to the cop. After all, the guy was TSA screened (so he had no weapons) and if I remember correctly he was pushing 70. The chance an unarmed 70 year old could inflict any harm to a cop is essentially zero. It was the cops job to get the guy off as seamlessly as possible. The cop ultimately didn't do his job.
The conflict between the cop and the passenger is incidental to the root cause: Bullshit profiteering practices by the airlines which regularly screw paying customers. That's why I hate flying.
I've long felt the airlines in this country get away with a lot of bullshit, too much in fact.
LOL
United has announced a new seating option on all flights: First class, Business, Economy, and Hunger Games
;)
If I pay for a seat, and it's non-refundable, I better damn well have a seat on the plane. They have my money in exchange for a seat on their plane. There is no reason for an airline to oversell their seats if it is a sold out flight.
If someone wants to get off and get a voucher for a flight to Hawaii or somewhere else that is worth more than the flight they are currently on, then let them do it. But the airlines should not have the right to kick you off a flight that you paid for and have a seat on it. It's complete bullshit in my opinion. United Airlines deserves the bad publicity they are getting.
Cash is king! Surely some greedy fuck would pocket the cash and get home a day late after having dinner and hitting the local SCs on the airline's dime. I would have. Pay for my hotel, buy me dinner, rebook me first thing in morning and $500 cash for tasty pussy. I'm in!!
The public got their way and the air lines were free to fly where ever they wanted and set their own fares. This prompted new air lines to pop all over the place offering cheaper fares. They had lower operating costs because all of the planes were brand new and all of their personnel were right off the street at willing to work for cheap wages. The majors of course had much higher operating costs and had to meet the competition. That's when service went down the drain.
Now I hear people crying to get the government to do more regulating. Glad I'm retired.
But this has gone far enough. As of now I am boycotting commercial air travel.
I will get around by ground transportation, rubber tired, steel wheels, bicycles, or general aviation.
SJG
As in most issues, there is a happy medium and being a capitalist, I leave it up to the airlines to clean up their act. We currently have several business models: you fly cheap but have to pay for every little thing, or you can pay one price. Seat room is way too little, but some airlines address that too either with added fees or just a higher ticket price.
Spirit Airlines is always rated the worst...yet they fill every plane because it's the cheapest way to fly. That's how free markets work.
Airline regulation had always meant that they had extremely high quality people are procedures at every level. So there were less problems.
It was not price competitive, but it was not intended to be either.
SJG
Not true, I am staying very close to home now, so it does not matter. But I do plan to be traveling greatly. For a number of reasons, but especially the ways which passengers on commercial flights are treated like prisoners now, I will not be using commercial air travel.
Even a small sail boat and a folding bicycle would be enough for me to move throughout the California coast with pleasure and ease. Any strip clubs right at the marinas?
Catalina 250, fixed ballast
http://www.bing.com/images/search?view=d…
SJG
https://www.amazon.com/Cruising-guide-Fr…
More people like to sail south than north, as that is how the wind blows. So there are less people for the big boat races than for the trailer size races.
To go north, if not on the highway. Then either you sneak along going windward in the mornings, often on aux power, or you make big tacks, possibly getting 1/3 of the way to Hawaii. For myself, with adequate crew, this latter way looks the most attractive and the most fun.
SJG
http://www.bing.com/images/search?view=d…
SJG
Catalina 250 wing keel, with wheel steering and Honda 4 cycle outboard. Not sure if they are offering a trailer with it. It can trailer, not bad. But water ballast sits lower and is lighter and so it trailers easier. But I want fixed ballast.
Great way to get around costal California!
Could go to Ensenada. :)
Could go to Cabo San Lucas. :)
Lots of professional sailing bums in Cabo San Lucas. Out in the water everyday, but going for months without running aux power for either propulsion or battery charging.
SJG
model 445
http://catalinayachts.com/yachts.cfm?act…
http://catalinayachts.com/yachts.cfm?act…
13' 7" beam
for serious off shore use, always want the propane kitchen, not that diesel generator stuff.
Going north along California coast, say to San Francisco, usually means going windward. Doing it with just two tacks can mean getting as much as 800 miles from land. Lots of fun, but only if you are well prepared.
http://catalinayachts.com/ViewPic.cfm?pi…
Double wheels ( for heel ), fancy cockpit navigation gear, center table with fold up wings. All really neat!
Has it all, even gimbaled oven.
The US yacht building industry cratered with the 2008 crash. Catalina used to make many more models. Big boat dealer at Jack London Square in Oakland. But could just accept delivery in SoCal. And of course there are used ones all around.
Catalina has always seemed like a very capable by still sensibly priced make.
But distance sailing is an around the clock undertaking. Best to have trained up a crew on shorter outings.
Always need both storm sails, and a whole host of other backup and safety gear.
Oyster, made in the UK, very big. To go much bigger, need custom builder.
Marlow-Hunter, Florida, another builder which has always seemed sensibly priced, and has also gone through many upheavils. 50 Center Cockpit. Some people like Center Cockpit, some do not.
http://www.marlow-hunter.com/large-keelb…
Lagoon, 70, part of the French Benetau Group, catamarans
http://www.cata-lagoon.com/lagoon_sevent…
62'
http://www.cata-lagoon.com/lagoon_620_uk…
Benetau makes some stuff in South Carolina.
Jeanneau, 64', part of Benetau Group, warning, they list prices!
http://www.jeanneauamerica.com/en/boats/…
Benetau working boats:
http://www.cnbpro.com/index_fr.php
Their main place is Bordeaux.
SJG
Sammy Hagar - Standing Hampton [Full Album] (Remastered)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIuDt0di…
Magical Battle of Britain: Past and Present Perspectives, a curious episode in the later life of Dion Fortune.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAM-lc8H…
I know there are two sides to every story. And I've known people who work in airport security. Some airline passengers are jerks. But I still say that United Airlines, once a highly regarded company, has at a minimum got a serious PR problem.
SJG
To Perfect This Feast - The Gnostic Mass
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhUpJubH…
Mexico City
http://doxyspotting.com/?p=136307
Georges Delerue: Platoon - Finale
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of_SZH1s…