Paying Too Much?

If you're comfortable with paying those amounts, then don't worry what others think.

Vegas is tricky, I live all the way on the east coast and manage to make it there several times a year. I've had OTC sessions there ranging from $1,000 to free, so I don't think there's a "bar" you can set in that town as easily as it is to do in others. There are several issues there as well, this girl has seen you gamble I'm assuming "several" times so she knows you have money to blow, why not blow it on her is probably her initial thought. I'm guessing the 9.5 in the Vegas girl so she can easily claim top dollar. What a lot of people don't realize is Vegas is one of the few places where girls can make stupid money inside the club so they don't even have to mess with OTC certain times of the year. I've personally seen girls make $5K with 3 nights of work, and $20K in 20 days of work. If you still want to see her, but want to trim the cost of the OTC, it's going to be hard to do. I would recommend cutting down what she sees if you want to have a chance to renegotiate. Stay in a hotel a step down from where you usually stay, don't gamble in front of her.

If you want a good "bar" my average for OTC is around $200 but that's mostly in midwestern industrial towns where strippers may not make in a month what a Vegas girl can make in a weekend. Depending on where the 2nd girl lives that should be more of an easy negotiation, for one she's an 8 which isn't too hard to replace, and she may not have as many "customers" as the Vegas girl. Remember, no matter how smart a girl is, she's still a girl and a lot of women don't negotiate very well, even when one of their options may be no more money from you at all.

^^^^ I agree. Whatever you feel comfortable with and can afford. And I agree that now that the price has been set, it will be difficult, if not impossible to trim that price down with these girls.

You'll know when it's time to stop paying that amount when you start to feel either regret or resentful, or both.

If the price is worth it to you, then by all means continue. It's your money. Spend it however you like.

Why don't you guys tell me that mybspending isbok ???

^^^because you are a lost cause Juice.

You spend too much on bus tickets and KFC value meals to afford a Vegas hooker.

I can afford a bus ticket to Vegas...I can also adorable a Vegas hoe....I just will have a hard timevmanaging this $3,000

$3k burning a hole in your pocket?

No..shut up lol

I know a guy in Nigeria who needs that $3k to pay the fees to get his $100k he'll share it with you.

Honest.

shalynn -->"If you're comfortable with paying those amounts, then don't worry what others think."

^^^ excellent advice.

#1. you're in vegas so the price of everything is higher that elsewhere for the same thing, just the way it is. Notice hardly any of the regular guys besides shailynn will admit to clubbing there (for OTC or not).

shailynn --> "Remember, no matter how smart a girl is, she's still a girl and a lot of women don't negotiate very well, even when one of their options may be no more money from you at all."

^^^ It might not be PC for me to point this out, but this is also good advice. Girl's don't do it as well on average.

I noticed a similar thing with my fave, when I was seeing her ITC in the club. I just paid her less, without really bringing it up, just did it, and she still kept up the effort any even tried harder. Though there are a small percentage of girls who aren't shy to ask for more, I just don't think I've seen one to that except for years ago, prior to 2007-9 and prior to 9/11. These days with the economy, with some girls, their options might just be you or leave with hardly anything.

I do think a big part of repeat clubbing, to quote the girls on Sundays (around here), is that you feel like you got value for your money, and don't feel like you were ripped off, so you'll want to return. :)

People pick on rickdugan from time to time for being predatory (I do), but I've found myself use some of his phrases when I compare notes. Eye contact, smile, lean in, and tell her "but I think this is more than enough for around these parts." Smile again. Stick to it. Since more girls suck at negotiation, most will cave or eventually cave. Just be firm.

Also remember don't worry about what other guys think, too. You are mostly on track. Just make sure you stay in control and don't secede control to the teenager in lingerie. I know its tempting when you have an 8 or a 9.5. Just act like you've done it before then after 1-2 tries it will become second nature. I find even the most confident women or the most staunchest feminist will want a guy who's cool and in control, and will yield to you. That's how you make the negotiation and payment go your way. Just pay her less without drawing attention to it. Don't worry about "losing" her. If she smells that on you, it's game over. That's why you are having trouble, IMO.

$1000 is a lot of money, and I think you feel you pay too much. However, I think you can re-negotiate. Give the strippers some sob story about how you have had some unexpected expenses (your car broke down, your mom needed an operation). Say you would really love to see her, but you can only afford $500 (or $800 or whatever). Then you can see how she reacts. My guess is that they both will be glad to take a smaller amount if the alternative is zero.

I agree that $1000 is high for 2-3 hours, but if you have the money and can spend it on these two young lovelies with no regrets, then the price is OK. There is no "right" price -- it's whatever you and she can agree upon.

My only real basis of comparison is what I spend for overnight dates with my ATF. Many times since August I have picked her up at 8pm or so, taken her to dinner, and then retired to her apartment for bedtime fun, a full night's sleep, and morning fun, culminating in a nice brunch at about noon. Total for about 16 hours of her time plus two rounds of adult fun and complete GFE: $350-450. I should mention that I was paying her rent for a while last fall in lieu of payment per date, which raised the average price per date. This is in a large Midwestern city.

Another favorite extras girl in another large Midwestern city will blow me in the VIP room for about $200 but wanted $500 for an afternoon date or $1000 for overnight -- with no GFE whatsoever. I politely declined and we have kept our activity ITC.

Solid advice by Dominic

I don't get why the 8 and the 9.5 should command the same $1,000

I would just stick with the 9.5 and drop the 8

I pay $1K for dates with my dream strippers, But my dates are considerably longer and more involved than yours. $1K is kind of a magic threshold that is enough to get the non-regular extras girls to take a walk on the wild side. If a girl won't take $1K it's very unlikely that she will fuck for any amount of money that a average guy could ever pay.

I know that most guys spend considerably less than $1K for otc dates. But they don't get the service or girls that are the quality of mine, at least not in most circumstances. And I can afford it, even though I admit that it's a shit load of money. I saw my girls 1-3 times per week.

I do not believe that it is possible to negotiate a new price with these girls. If I were you, I would keep seeing these two girls. But at the same time I would be shopping for cheaper alternatives. Once you find a replacement girl then you can replace the $1K girls. Also try to look at shopping for a new stripper as a fun adventure , not as a burdensome chore. Lots of guys would like to know how to do it but they never will.

I know several Vegas strippers VERY well. They charge $1000 to hang out outside the club. The problem here isn't your poor negotiating skills, necessarily ... it's that you're doing it in Vegas.

If you were anywhere but Vegas, I'd be telling you what a dope you are for agreeing to $1000. But Vegas is Vegas, the girls can make $1000 a night at the club easy (at least weekend nights), and sometimes come home with $2000+, so they charge a lot for their external time. So instead of telling you what dope you are, I'll agree with my compadres above: if you can afford it, you enjoy it, and you can get past the "I've been ripped off" feeling, then I'd say this is par for the course... sorta. The girls always quote $1000, and there is wiggle room to negotiate, price or time. Even for Vegas, $1000 is high for just a few hours. If I could afford the $1000, I'd be insisting on her staying the night (if you're into that), or moving on to a girl who will. $1000 should buy you a couple of hours at a daybar pool party, dinner, all night of bar hopping and partying with the hottest chick in the place on your arm, amazing sex back at your hotel room, spooning all night (you'll have to pay extra if you want to be the little spoon, though). If it's not buying you that, you can negotiate for sure.

Personally, my experience is that once a girl feels entitled to $X, negotiating her price down can generate some resentment (which is why I ALWAYS negotiate very hard for the best price from the start); if I were you, I'd keep the $1000 constant (if you can afford it) and negotiate for much more time, assuming you WANT more time.

-->"I do not believe that it is possible to negotiate a new price with these girls. If I were you, I would keep seeing these two girls. But at the same time I would be shopping for cheaper alternatives. Once you find a replacement girl then you can replace the $1K girls. Also try to look at shopping for a new stripper as a fun adventure , not as a burdensome chore. Lots of guys would like to know how to do it but they never will."

JS was posting the same time I was ... in all honesty, while I do think re-negotiation is possible, it always raises at least the possibility of resentment and a service drop, in which case, what's the point. So I really think JS69's advice above is probably better than mine: you can probably find replacements who are just as hot, and will readily agree to less $ for 2-5 hours, or much more time (including overnights) for $1000, and they won't have the baggage of resentment that you re-negotiated (remember, strippers find a way to get insulted about anything and everything, so "he's saying I'm not hot enough" is a real possibility).

JohnSmith69 --> "Also try to look at shopping for a new stripper as a fun adventure , not as a burdensome chore. Lots of guys would like to know how to do it but they never will."

^^^ This. Shipping for new girls is supposed to be mind-blowing fun. And it is! It's half the fun of clubbing, really.

^^^ Agree, too. If you go to most SC boards, it's shocking to me how many guys don't even realize OTC is going on! Even the kind of seasoned PLs who seek out SC boards. Finding that girl who turns you on, and getting her to agree to OTC at the price you want with the activities you want is definitely part of the fun.

These issues are why you need a few different girls, and it might teach you a thing or two about negotiating. You should always start lower and settle on less than your top price,because anything less because you need to cut back for whatever reason, will most like lead to resentment and poor quality of service, but if you were at a price that was more comfortable to you the feelings that you are having wouldn't be coming up. Remember if you are at a lower price point any time that is extra special, you can make up for with a nice gift, but do not fall into the trap of tipping because that will become part of the expected price. Something that works well for me is to always have a few $50-100 gift cards from stores like Victoria's Secret or Forever 21, or even a department store , you can give them out if you like but they are separate in their mind from cash given as a tip.

I'm overwhelmed by the responses, gents. Thanks. I'll try to touch a few of the points:

@Shyailynn - you are very astute and were correct in all your assumptions. The 9.5 is the Vegas girl. I'm flabbergasted that you (and others) are able to pay $200-$450 (@MrDeuce) for an evening or apparently even overnight of GFE. I'm often into one of these girls or others $450 just for 30 minutes of VIP room, before even leaving the club. I still do some time with them in the club (not everytime) because, well, I actually love the club ambiance and it's fun to be there with the hottest stripper(s) in the club hanging around you... but when they hang with you for a couple hours I feel obligated to at least go do some time in VIP.

The general sentiment seems to be "if it's worth it to you and you enjoy, no problem". I do agree, overall. Free market, and all that. I can pay it, technically, but it doesn't mean I don't consider it to be a lot of money. I have been offered on two different occasions to hang out twice for $1,500 ($750 each) by the non-Vegas girl. For whatever reason that felt just right. It's as if my barometer is set so that $450 would just be stupid cheap, can't even fathom it, $1,000 is doable, but just barely into the uncomfortable zone, and $750 is just right. Feels fair to me, for both parties.

@Bavarian (fellow BMW fan) brings up a good point. Why not ditch the 8 if the 9.5 is the same price. A couple reasons I guess. One is location. 9.5 is in Vegas, and the 8 is where she is. But even beyond location, although 9.5 is awesome, great personality (or I wouldn't do it, that's a dealbreaker, it's not all about looks) the 8 is just so, so much fun. I truly have a great time with her. It probably borders on a level it shouldn't sometimes, because I can have so much fun that there are moments I tend to forget what's going on. Feels like I'm with an actual girlfriend. I've told myself many times I'd like to find her... but in the real world. We're close enough in age. I have to work hard to keep my head on straight with this one.

@JohnSmith69 and @Subraman - Thanks to both of you. I agree, I don't think renegotiating is possible. I have and will continue to see if I can slowly squeeze a bit more out of my visits and thus make it a little more worth it each time.

Negotiation is the key, I don't fault you one bit, dude, but it's amazing how well negotiation can work in your favor.

Might be helpful to know how you negotiated the original $1000. That sounds suspiciously like the standard stripper first offer, as in:

You: How much do you want for OTC? Her: Like, $1000? You: Okay

If that's how it went, and you want negotiating tips, well, you're in luck: TUSCL is the Land of The Systems (plural!!!). Each of us seem to have our own techniques, you might pick one that fits your temperment.

Yes @Subraman, that's exactly how it went. It's funny because I've always considered myself a good negotiator when it comes to my businesses, but I think when it comes to this I've had a different attitude.

I've kind of felt like if you negotiate with a dancer, you might not get her best performance. $1,000 is a lot, no doubt, I really wouldn't mind finding a few on the roster that don't command such an amount. But I guess I probably worried that if someone asked for $1,000 and I talked it down to $700, I'd get a 70% performance so to speak, and I want her to bring her A-Game. Maybe the key will be to find some who's A-Game simply happens to be just a bit cheaper. Thanks.

You can always try to renegotiate, but you have to realize that since these girls (particularly the Vegas one) have a) other options and b) have become accustomed to the price they'll likely either walk or not be as enthusiastic. Once you've become accustomed to making a certain amount of money it becomes thoroughly unenticing to accept less. And depending on where you live it's pretty easy to find guys that will actually just pay you for your time.

If YOU think it's worth it, keep paying, but you'd have a lot better luck just extending the time spent with them than trying to reduce the price at this point.

It's absolutely not true that if you negotiate, you don't get her A-game. She's a person, she negotiates like anyone else -- she starts high, to give herself headroom to get talked down. As a general rule you might get better service for more money, but I've gotten A-Game service from girls I've talked down a whole lot -- and I can't imagine what else they'd give to a guy they paid more, since I left no hole unturned, as it were...

Anyway, I think there's a zillion ways to negotiate her down gracefully, and you just have to find one that fits your personality -- some of these guys say things to the girls that I just couldn't pull off, but hey, if they get what they want, with great service, then it worked. I think the main universal rule is: don't be creepy. Other than that, find what works for you. For me, it's:

1. See her a few times before asking OTC. I feel like it will make her more trusting of and comfortable with you, and I like her to think about the fact that her opportunity cost for saying "no" is not just what she'd earn from the OTC, but all the business I would bring her as a regular. But I also offer OTC before I'm crushing on her -- at a point where it's still easy for me to walk away.

2. Be respectful. Without saying it explicitly, I like the understood vibe to be, "hey, you're awesome and you'd be worth 3x as much, if I had the money ... but I don't, so I'm offering $X". I smile, I keep in close body contact, just a discussion between friends. I don't neg the girls, try to make them feel like commodities, or try to give the impression that I"ll be bringing them more money than I really well. All fine strategies, just not me.

3. I always give my offer first. Just temperment-wise, I like to be calm and in control, and for me personally (maybe it's a business weakness), I like being on offense, as it were. So I NEVER ask her her price first, I never let what she thinks she's worth influence what I'll say. I offer slightly less than I'm willing to pay, so if she must, she can talk me up a bit for her ego.

4. The entire negotiation is about seeing me OTC. No details (other than that we'll have sex, of course -- and usually I don't say this ... YET). Once she's agreed to a price, I describe what I"m thinking: "We'll go hit up Drai's beach club, then hit up SW Steakhouse, then get a table at Hakkasan, then head back to my room". I just say it casually and assumptively -- yes, of course we just negotiated for all fucking day and potentially night. What I just described is over-the-top, but you get the idea... the whole advantage of OTCing with strippers instead of going with escorts is that strippers expect to hang out socially without charging you for every dime.

^ that's in interesting point about how negotiations would work in a SC economy where somebody's income is dependent on regulars. In OPs post he said he saw them once/twice a month with time in between...so his ability to talk them down would largely depend on whether or not they care about the additional income.

Tim - thanks for the compliment.

"I'm flabbergasted that you (and others) are able to pay $200-$450"

• Don't be shocked by that at all, I club all over the country and each area is different. You have to put it in perspective. Let me give you an example. I walk into a club in Detroit and hang out with a girl that's a "7" (on a good day). It's dead inside the club and it's a Friday night, prior to me walking in, she had only made $10. I hang with her for close to 3 hours, feed her drinks and take her back to VIP where she does anything I want and I give her $200. She's a nice girl and I know she's not making much money so I tip her another $100. She's probably done for the night on customers and she has to give some of that $300 she just made off me back to the club, her house fees are ??? I'm not sure...

The next day is a Saturday and she's not scheduled to work although she wishes she was. I have nothing to do so at the end of that Friday night before I leave the club I offer for her to go out for dinner with me and come back to my room which she readily accepts. We never discussed price which often happens (I always find this is a tell sign that a girl doesn't do OTC that much). We meet, go out to eat (she picked the restaurant) and go back to my hotel room. I slipped $200 in her purse, she knew I did that but didn't know how much. When she left I told her I left her the same amount I paid for VIP the previous night and she seemed fine with that. From here on out, our sessions usually consisted of dinner (she would almost always pick the place) and $200. Once she asked for an extra $100 which I gave. Sometimes I'd stay on the opposite side of town than where she lived which meant she'd have to drive 45 min to me so I'd give her an extra $50 for gas money.

She was not a pro at this, as many other girls I've met are not either. Your Vegas girl is likely a pro seeing many guys and can probably easily replace you. Now, your 8 girl, if she's out in the middle of Arizona or Texas in a small town, she can't easily replace someone like you so she'll take what she can get, even if it's a reduced rate.

@Subraman - I like your tactic quite a bit. I think I'm pretty reserved in mine, but I was a rookie and mostly it seems I made the mistake of just accepting first offer. Quite frankly, I didn't know going rates, but it sounds like with one of them being in Vegas, it might not be that unreasonable. As for the other, I can't be certain that if I could only keep just one, it wouldn't be the '8'. She's pretty fun.

Slightly off topic, I know some of you guys do these get-togethers around the country from time to time... I might just have to join one sometime. Probably a fun group and I could stand to learn a thing or two. I traveled in 2016 to four different states, for the sole purpose of simply checking out some of the more popular clubs I'd heard of, ie. I traveled to Phoenix to check out HiLiter and to Dallas to check out Baby Dolls, as well as a couple other places. I think this year I'm going to head to Detroit, Atlanta, maybe Miami... and who knows where else. I figure while I'm single there's no one to explain to, so it might as well be now.

I think you're paying too much in both states. I only have one experience in Vegas and we didn't even have sex, but I got her to go shopping with me (I didn't buy her anything although that's how she thought the shopping would go). Then we headed back to my hotel for her performing fellatio. This was $400 - $600 if I recall correctly.

So with Vegas I think you could maybe get by cheaper for the fact it's Vegas. I'd recommend taking her to do something she likes or y'all gamble a set amount with your money. I do believe it'll be difficult to re and keep her. So maybe next one you come upon in Vegas you'll be ready to establish a reasonable cost for you.

Not sure of this other state, but in comparison to where I'm at that's $800 more than what I pay for and most of the time it ends up being a couple of hours or overnight. If you can afford these prices as regularly as you'd like then keep up with it until you feel otherwise. I'll look for this one high roller PL who posted on here and how he was out of like $400k after spending on just one girl and post again.

I haven't been fortunate enough to travel extensively to pull one elsewhere, but if I had to give an average all around price, I think $400 - $500 would be the acceptable.

I think on here you guys tend to overthink what is going on with these girls like shailynn just pointed out the area you are in has a lot more to do with what these girls need which is how they tend to negotiate, most of these girls are at most semi-pros with Vegas, NYC, LA and a few other places being the outliers. Generally strippers as a group tend to not be professional and usually just live in the moment. Just my take on this.

I agree with Subraman's negotiation points: see her a few times ITC first, be respectful, make the first offer, and don't pin down too many details, such as the exact nature of the services rendered, but propose a date that sounds as fun as possible to a hot young woman in her 20s or 30s.

When I started seeing my ATF last August, we had already done half a dozen UHM sessions in the VIP room since April and had already casually discussed meeting OTC, but she had to cut a boyfriend loose first. As soon as she was free of him, she called me to say that she was available and the short negotiation went like this:

Knowing that a half hour in the VIP room cost $150 plus a $50 tip to her, of which she kept about $150, I proposed $350 for an overnight date including a fine Japanese steakhouse for dinner and an upscale brunch spot the next day. She agreed and I ended up giving her $400 -- which, as twentyfive pointed out, became the new baseline. Other such dates last fall were compensated at a higher level because of an unfortunate decision on my part to offer to pay her rent in exchange for a certain number of dates. The problem was that I was stuck paying rent for a while but the dates didn't always materialize :) I learned a big lesson there.

This year we've spent three nights together, for which I've paid $350, $450, and $450. They always start at 8 or 9pm and last until somewhere between noon and 3pm the next day and always include an expensive dinner (i.e. $65-110 for two -- this is the Midwest, after all) and an expensive brunch ($30-40), except for the time that she fixed bacon, eggs, and hash browns for us. After the first date, which was in a $60 hotel room (again, Midwest!), we have always stayed in her apartment.

She will be moving in with a boyfriend at the end of this month, so our OTC fun is almost over, but we are currently negotiating for two more overnights and an "afternooner" for a total of about $1200-1300. Even after she moves in with him, I suspect she'll be agreeable to some evening "dinner" dates or morning "brunch" dates for about $250 for three-four hours, including adult playtime in my hotel room.

Yes, you can absolutely negotiate with these girls, especially outside of Las Vegas, but you probably can't negotiate down from what the first date cost. Quite possibly you can get more time for the same price.

Okay if you can afford $1k and those travel expenses twice a month I think the 2016 Pathetic Loser of the Year thread by Daddilac would be a good read for you.

-->" ^ that's in interesting point about how negotiations would work in a SC economy where somebody's income is dependent on regulars."

There's definitely disagreement on the group about this. There are a few guys here who tell me I"m just imagining this, "strippers don't think that far ahead, all they see is whether or not they're getting their price for the OTC". I definitely don't agree, at least not for all of them -- in fact, I've had girls tell me outright that they know saying no to OTC could doom the income from that regular overall, and even on our arch-nemesis forum SW, the girls say "if you say no to OTC he'll drop you, so if you're not going to go, try to lead him on for a few more visits" ... in other words, they are solidly aware than a "no" here dooms future income (of course, that won't make a girl who is disinclined to do OTC to change her mind, but it MIGHT make a girl who'd prefer $500, agree to $300 if she thinks I'm firm)

I have never been to Vegas nor do I OTC much; but that doesn't keep me from having an opinion :)

It is kinda accepted knowledge that most strippers, most salespeople really, will quote sky-high since there will always be newbie/not-in-the-know PLs that will pay what the stripper says - sorta like buying a car; the salesperson will often start sky-high b/c there are often those that will bite and/or don't know any better - thus going w/ what the dancer-says/her-first-offer more often means one will be over-paying.

As I mentioned, never been to Vegas and don't OTC much - but $1k seems too much IMO for the following reasons:

• I'm not clear on how long these "dates" are - if many are just an hour then IMO you are getting hustled big time - 4 hours "maybe" it being Vegas

• I know you didn't mention it b/c some on here will give you flack for it - but I read that you are not getting sex w/ these "dates" and you are more interested in the companionship aspect of it which personally I think it's fine if that is what you genuinely seek - thus the fact that she does not have to "put out" and just be arm-candy I think $1k just for that is to f'ing much especially for just an hour or two

• I assume you are treating them to a good time and spending $$$ on them beyond their fee - i.e. they probably get to eat some good meals; have drinks, hang-out in nice casinos; etc, all on your dime just for hanging out w/ you - I'm not saying that nice-meals, drinks, and hanging out in nice casinos, should be enough "compensation"; just that it is value-added per se

IMO you are paying a premium price - if you feel you are getting a premium experience then the price might be worth it; but I think you could have negotiated lower b/c:

• you jumped at her first offer which again it often means you are over-paying

• I "assume" she is not missing one of her normal shifts to spend time w/ you - i.e. I "assume" you don't ask her to not work her normal shift and instead spend that time w/ you - if this is the case then her time w/ you is extra $$$ and IMO should not be seen as a substitute for what she would make on a regular shift she would o/w not be working - and the fact you are a regular that not only probably spends well on her on the date (dinner, drinks, casinos, etc) but also spends on her ITC and you do so on a regular basis; IMO means you should not have to pay such a premium every damn time you see her - if it was a one-off kinda thing then "maybe"; IMO you should be entitled to a volume-discount per se as a regular

IMO if she spends just an hour w/ you; I would not pay more than $300 and that is b/c it is Vegas - and I would not pay more than $500 on a "date" and for $500 I'd expected a min of 2-hours more along the line of 3-hours maybe 4 (and if she spent 4 hours then maybe I'd throw in a $100 tip).

I know it's Vegas; but does the "Vegas standard" apply to every dancer in every club in Vegas? Are we to assume almost every Vegas dancer can easily make $1k per shift irrespective of who she is and what club she works at; or are the $1k+/shift dancers more of the exception w.r.t. certain dancers and at certain clubs - i.e. can a Palomino dancer pull $1k+/shift as easily as a Rhino girl? - i.e. how easy it for your particular faves to make $1k+/shift - are they constantly busy in their clubs selling dances and more-importantly VIPs - and I don't necessarily think that one needs to equal what she could potentially make in a shift b/c:

• no guarantee she makes $1k+/shift on most of her shifts - i.e. do your faves make $1k+/shift more often than not?

• even if they do "routinely" make $1k+/shift; OTC w/ you means they don't have to hustle multiple custies; they don't have to pay a likely high house-fee and other tip-outs; and again it's extra/side $$$

I agree w/ others in that no-one (stripper or not) likes to take a pay-cut - but one person will be in control; either you, or her, and too many PLs seem to let the dancer control the situation and dictate the terms and I don't think that is the best way to go - too many PLs want to please the dancer as if she was a S.O. and thus often don't get good-value for their $$$ - when one is paying a dancer it is for her to please you not for the PL to be pleasing her - I believe that is how many dancers sooner than later start taking their regulars for granted and slacking off b/c too many PLs put these chicks on pedestals as if the dancer is doing them a grand favor for taking their $$$ and spending time w/ them - IMO many PLs need to change their thinking - and IMO over-paying a dancer can often result in inferior treatment since many dancers feel if he's dumb/pathetic-enough to over-pay then he's dumb/pathetic enough to accept what ever she says.

IMO - you are either the boss, or she is - and I think you'd get a lot better results by knowing your worth as a well-paying custy and not feel like you are at their mercy.

If the feeling of your time w/ them over-rides the feeling that you may be getting gypped; then enjoy it for what it is - if it's gnawing at you then I would rectify the situation and just tell them you can't keep paying $1k and if that is not good enough for them then you gotta decide what's more important to you (not over-paying or being w/ them and over-paying) - I would think they will put up a fight at first but often times strippers come-around once a PL calls their bluff - and if they don't come around these 2-chicks cannot be the only 2 that fit the bill in Vegas - personally I prefer to let a stripper walk than feel like I'm over-paying; but that's just me.

Again - I personally feel you are over-paying for what you are getting - if this doesn't sit well w/ you then you need to rectify the situation and let the chips fall where they may and look for other dancers willing to work w/ you - too many PLs are afraid to "offend" a dancer by not paying top-dollar; but the dancers don't have any qualms about taking the $$$ even if it's over-payment - i.e. they are looking out for their best-interest and IMO a PL that is overly concerned about what the dancer(s) think needs to know and accept that feeling 99% of the time is not reciprocated - a PL needs to wear the pants else he's just a pussy-whipped ATM that 99% of dancers will drop in a Vegas minute the minute the PL can no-longer pay - the dancers are getting theirs and they are out to get theirs; the PL should be thinking the same way; it's business - hopefully the two can meet in the middle where it's fair to both parties.

Thanks again to the last few commenters. To Ch3ll's point, I have read that 2016 Pathetic Loser post and it rings home too true! No, I'm not that bad, but readily admit to being a PL. In 2016 (my first year in this game) I spent $XX,XXX doing this (think mid range of that number) but my goal for 2017 is NOT to cut it out, it's way too fun. I'm overall having a blast. I intend to cut the spend roughly in half, while increasing the value I get for every dollar. Call it my New Year's resolution ;). That number represents ITC and OTC.

The thing about this number between $200-$600 that still surprises me is that in my favorite Las Vegas club, 30 minutes in the VIP is going to cost in the $400+ range. I know these girls mostly do 15 minute sessions at around $150, but still, they add up.

I had a conversation with a stripper a couple months ago in my favorite Vegas club. She in fact is probably my favorite stripper in my favorite club. I've never OTC'd with a girl from this club, sort of a "don't shit where you eat" rule that I established, although I'm laxing on the idea, and wouldn't oppose it in the future. We will call her Unicorn. Unicorn is a so-called feature dancer and tells me she's never done OTC. I believe her. Having no intentions of ever proposing it with her, her and I shoot the shit a lot when I visit. She's the closest thing I could consider a "friend" in one of these places, although yes I use the term very loosely.

I told Unicorn that I have OTC'd but never with one of her colleagues. She's liberal, doesn't care, thinks it's interesting, and get's propositioned every night anyway, so she knows it happens. But her question to me was the same I pose above. "Why would I go OTC when I can rack up 30 minute sessions at $450 each, and not take on the risk, or do things that I simply don't need to do, plus travel time, all for what, the cost of two 30 minute VIP's?"

Legitimate question. My only response was that although she can rack up 30 minute VIP's, not all of her colleagues do so readily, and heck, even Unicorn has some rough patches. But if we're talking $1,000, any guy out there would rather spend that on OTC rather than two separate 30 minute VIP's (not an extras club at all) for almost the same price. So a girl that will OTC can build a bit of a clientele that will OTC, or at least has a whole new pool of guys that will spend money on OTC, but don't necessarily love dropping $450 for a measly 30 minutes of VIP, with no real action. Those are my assumptions at least.

A couple of snippets:

-->"+ I "assume" she is not missing one of her normal shifts to spend time w/ you - i.e. I "assume" you don't ask her to not work her normal shift and instead spend that time w/ you"

My suggestion is to ignore entirely the topic of whether she's missing a normal shift or not. That's because, for every Vegas stripper I know, " Oh no! I'd love to hang out with you but I have to work that night" is a standard negotiating tactic that they trot out early, if the guy tries to negotiate at all. Most of the times it's a lie. So: you never have any idea whether she's missing a normal shift or not, and you should especially NEVER believe her if she says she IS missing a shift. Just change the day/time to when she's not working, or whatever... but this is not your problem, and not a subject that should effect your mentality in the negotiations.

-->"but does the "Vegas standard" apply to every dancer in every club in Vegas? Are we to assume almost every Vegas dancer can easily make $1k per shift irrespective of who she is and what club she works at; or are the $1k+/shift dancers more of the exception w.r.t. certain dancers and at certain clubs"

Paps, even the Rhino girls don't always make $1k per shift. They can usually do it on weekends and when there's big conventions in town, but often during the week and even on the occasional weekend, they come home disappointed. The girls I know I very hot, top tier even by Rhino & Saphire standards, and that's the general rule (at least to the extent they're not lying to me, because strippers).

"... 30 minutes in the VIP is going to cost in the $400+ range ..."

Is this gross or net? - i.e. does the PL pay the club or pay her the $400+ directly" and pay the club the room-fee separately (is the $400+ all for her)?

In the end; it comes down to whether one feels they are getting good/fair value - this is probably one of the main-reasons many hardcore SCers choose not to SC in Vegas (big $$$ often avg ROI) - for me I rather not play at all than have to overpay - there seem to be several variable aT play including it being Vegas but I rather go w/o than have to play the GPS game (assuming that $1k is the standard which I'm not totally convinced it is or has to be even in Vegas but then again I have not done Vegas).

Outside of Las Vegas, any stripper who tells you that she makes $1000+ every time she works is almost certainly lying. In my part of the world, a lot of dancers are content to clear $300 and often go home with $150 (or less!). My ATF tells me quite openly that she usually makes $400-700 for a six-hour day shift in a club where extras (HJs and BJs) are fairly common in the VIP room. She is willing to accept $400-450 to spend the night with me because she doesn't have to hustle for my business and she knows that I'm clean, fun, and attentive to her needs compared to her usual ITC customers. Besides, a night with me takes no time away from her day shift work, and for the vast majority of a 16-hour date with me, she is either eating fine food, sleeping, or cumming :)

MrDeuce-->" In my part of the world, a lot of dancers are content to clear $300 and often go home with $150 (or less!)."

Definitely the case on dayshift

timjayfittyfi-->" "Why would I go OTC when I can rack up 30 minute sessions at $450 each, and not take on the risk, or do things that I simply don't need to do, plus travel time, all for what, the cost of two 30 minute VIP's?"

So there's two ways to think of this:

1. Don't try to guess why a stripper is motivated to do things she does. Just know in your heart and in your genitals that strippers most assuredly OTC on the reg, even hot ones, even ones that make loads of $$$, for sometimes surprisingly low remuneration.
2. Ignoring the advice above, let's puzzle out why some strippers, even at high $ clubs, might choose to OTC instead:

• Better customer. It is very easy to underestimate what douchebags strip club customers are -- they are in many ways the worst customers in the sex business. They say unspeakably obnoxious and disrespectful things. They grab her ass when they walk by, and try to put their fingers in her pussy for a $20 lapdance. They sit there silent and make her drive the entire conversation. They get drunk and mean. You, by contrast, are fun, respectful, and while you may push the limits whenever you can, you seek consent along the way.
• No coworkers. Everything I said above about how horrible strip club customers are, goes triple for her coworkers: management, bouncers, DJs, the other girls -- they can add a lot of stress and unpleasantry,
• Better hours. A night girl gets to work at 11pm, works until 5am, and in many cases, gets crazy drunk and stoned the whole way through. This is hard on the bodies of even people in their 20s, and on top of that, there's the emotional stress of living life during opposite hours of your friends and family, sleeping when they're awake, awake when they're sleeping. This is one of the very top complaints I hear from night girls. You are going to take her out, in most cases get her back to the room at a decent hour, have sex, then she either stays or goes home, but wakes up in the morning like a normal person.
• Guaranteed money. Yes, all the girls pose and lie about how they make $1000 a night, but they don't. Your $350 is guaranteed.

Put it all together: She's with a customer she enjoys far more (or dislikes far less), for less time, for not a fortune but at least a decent payday. And she's getting out of what is often a pretty toxic environment for her, to one that's a lot less stressful overall. It is VERY CLEARLY worth it to many, many strippers. In my case, I go almost strictly to no-extras clubs, and I am pulling attractive no-extras strippers out of the club to OTC, where they know sex is expected, for $300-$350 (although food/alcohol/etc costs can add a lot to that)

Find girls you actually want to know. The cost may be high, but what you get is better.

SJG

Just like not all PLs are the same (i.e. not everyone can throw around $1k/encounter); not every dancer is the same (i.e. not all are making great $$$ consistently to where they need to not bother w/ OTC regulars, I'm sure some dancers fall in this category of not-needing OTC $$$ but it's not a given perhaps even in Vegas; not to mention some/many dancers spend a lot (shopping, etc) so even if they make a lot many often seem to be in the red).

And to Subra's last post; it is not uncommon for certain dancers to actually prefer the OTC $$$/setup vs having to go into the club and all that it entails - i.e. not uncommon for dancers to cut down their shifts significantly if not all-together if they have a good OTC regular(s) taking care of them at a reasonable level - may not necessarily apply to Vegas but perhaps.

The OP should be commended on sharing his experiences. I personally can only stand a woman for 15-30 minutes max, so if she can't satisfy me within that time frame then she isn't getting my $40-$60. Sorry, not sorry but that's how I roll!

Completely off topic, but I find that the highlight of this thread for me is that duomaxwell is still around.

Nice to see you posting again. Hope it becomes a habit.

Papi said- "+ I know you didn't mention it b/c some on here will give you flack for it - but I read that you are not getting sex w/ these "dates" and you are more interested in the companionship aspect of it which personally I think it's fine if that is what you genuinely seek - thus the fact that she does not have to "put out" and just be arm-candy I think $1k just for that is to f'ing much especially for just an hour or two"

Well, that was true in the very, very beginning, and it was my choice, and that is the case with just the one I met first. I don't like getting into specifics... but suffice it to say I'm getting exactly what I look for at this point. Yes, that would make the $1,000 even less of a worthwhile proposition.

I can relate to what Meat72 said about tolerating a woman for only 15-30 minutes -- with rare exceptions, I can tolerate any given stripper for only, say, a couple of hours at a time -- but one reason my ATF is, well, my all-time favorite stripper is that I can be with her for 16 hours, only half of which are sleeping hours, and still not be sick of her. She was touched the other night when I told her that she was one of the few people in the world that I can stand to be with for more than a few hours at a time.

To me, a $1000 = a day of work to me. If she only has to put in a couple hours or more to earn a full day's pay, well that is for you to decide if it is worth it to you. For me, $40-$60 for a dancer to not have to deal with some old smelly bald guy who is overweight, as oppose to me who is a rich stud, yeah I think I know my worth.

To Papi's other question, I probably know Vegas clubs as well as 99%+ at this point. I bet I entered one or another some 20-30 times last year, and I don't even live there. That does include multiple visits in each trip though; I'm not flying in THAT much. Not even in Vegas is everyone making $1,000+ every night. I know my favorite there does most nights, but she really is top tier.

And thanks Papi for the "tough love" response. I've recently been giving some thought to the idea that I might have given too much of the control, or power, or whatever, to the dancer, especially the non-Vegas one, and have basically decided to pull back a bit to see what happens. I'm on my longest streak of not seeing her since we met last summer (which isn't all that long, I admit), but I can already see a bit of groveling in text messages. Even if pricing doesn't change, I think the dynamic changes and it will help put me back in the driver's seat a bit more; a place where I definitively was at the start, but have sort of given up as the months have gone by.

Years ago when I met my ATF the minimum time in VIP at her club was 1 hour ($170 to the house & $200 for the dancer). She wanted ( and got) another $100 for BBBJ so with a tip to the waitress I was spending $500 for an hour which eventually included FS. I talked her into meeting me at a hotel for an hour for the $100. Because I travelled a lot at the time, I had Hitler's & flight points for free rooms. I paid more for more time - $750 for 2 hours, up to $1500 for overnight with two bouts of sex. After 6 years, money got tighter and I negotiated down to $400 an hour, then $300. I was a known quantity and we hung out a lot ( I never paid for our time hanging out or going to dinner or a play or whatever. I only paid for bedroom time. I recently took a young dancer to VIP for a 1/2 hour ($70 + $100) and before going upstairs she asked what I wanted. I told her oral and she said" I'll need an extra tip for that. I stupidly said $100? And she said yes so fast I realized I blew any chance of getting it for less. Still, she was very well skilled in her craft and we began talking about OTC and she's amenable but we haven't talked Price and I no longer pay for hotels with points, so I'll see her in the club next week and see if I can get her to agree for $200 or $250, but I expect it'll be a minimum $300. My ATF is currently "sober & in a relationship" so she's unavailable but I told her of the new prospect who she knows and approves of. She thinks I may talk her into $250. I'm in the greater Boston area and the cost of living is high so even Backpage & Craigslist hookers are getting $200 an hour. I wish there were some decent amps in tithe area.