The aftermath of "no"

Here's what I would do. I'm smoking so this answer will either be really good or really bad.

I've talked to you about this in person too, and I got the distinct impression that this girl doesn't need to and therefore won't do OTC. She's probably just dragging you along to keep the atm open.

But since she's DS hot to you, she's worth one more big shot. Maybe at lunch, I'd have a talk. Tell her she's awesome, you want to spend a bunch on her regularly, but it's getting frustrating. Because she's so hot, you can't keep coming so close to completion without crossing the line. This would drive any man insane. Say it lovingly but she has to do OTC to keep a big flow of money coming from you.

She might say no. Or yes. You won't know until you give it one last huge shot. But you shouldn't let her keep dragging you along. You've made more than enough of an investment. She needs to decide if she plays or not.

I was sort of in your situation and had a fav dancer I would visit last year. She was smoking hot and friendly, great personality etc. She loved my visits cause I'd spend hundreds on her each time. I asked her out on a date as she was not an OTC type girl but she always claimed and perhaps was too busy. Finally after visiting her 2 nights in a row I just had to stop visiting the club for a while. I did text her and thanked her for the wonderful dancing. I distracted myself by visiting another club instead which worked for a while. 3 months later I went back to her club but did not see her and met my current OTC fav who is very pretty also but has way more issues. If I ever see my old fav I would definitely get a few dances and enjoy talking to her but will let her know plainly that unless she is willing to at least go out with me there will be no more nights where I just spend hundreds of $'es for her ITC dances.

I agree with JS69s plan. You need to just put one last shot on goal. You might miss, but it's worth a try.

Okay, two thoughts. Unlike JS, I'm not smoking, but my answers might nevertheless be bad :) But, completely honestly, these are the paths I follow in this type of situation.

1. This has worked for me more than once, though might get some of you shaking your head. Tell her you'd like to see her OTC, but if she's not comfortable, you don't have to have sex. A BJ, or hell, even a HJ is sufficient. I got the most beautiful woman I've ever met in a strip club out to OTC this way, after weeks of her telling me no. She got a funny look on her face, made a joke about not having given a HJ since Jr. High school, laughed out loud and said, "huh, a handjob. Sure, I'll give you a handjob". As with all girls I got out of the club with a promise of reduced service of BJ or HJ, once we were OTC, drunk and happy and comfortable, HJ turned to a whole lot more. Yes, it's a risk, but hell -- worst case, you get the HJ. Life could be worse.

2. Sometimes, a girl is awesome in the club and it's fun to be with her even though she won't go OTC. No reason to apologize for enjoying yourself ITC, just explain to her that you'll be seeing other girls sometimes since you want to go OTC, but hang out with her if you want. I've had girls who drove me insane and I enjoyed seeing in the club, I'd have drinks with them and just one VIP, come ou tof the VIP all hot and bothered, and then go get a bodyrub/FBSM... Being all revved up first made it extra awesome.

All it takes is time and proximity, money buys you both. I'd wouldn't ask her anymore, the problem is once a chick said no, you pressuring her to get to yes makes them feel like you don't respect them. Once a chick says no, I do spend time with other girls, still get dances with the one girl, and never say a word about "I'm not going to do X because of Y". But getting dances and spending time with other and them having a good time saying great things about you while you go back and flirt occasionally

Roofies (or as I call it, The Bill Cosby System).

I've never tried Subra's approach but I can see how it could work. If you follow his system, I'd do DATY on her. Give her a great time, make her orgasm a priority, and maybe she'll do more for you.

GACA's system would be ok if you could significantly limit what you spend on this one. But I have my doubts that you could do that.

I'd give her one more try. I think subraman's suggestion has merit. If she's adverse to fucking OTC - p4p - maybe the suggestion of you getting some relief not involving fucking will ease her worries. If she still says no - then you know nothing but blue balls are in the future. If she says yes - you get a release - and a HJ - or a BJ - or more.

I look at the money spent - so far - as an investment. However, the critical time comes (in certain investments) where the money invested isn't providing the expected returns. The critical time is when you must decide whether you stop pouring funds into a failing investment. It's a difficult decision!

I use the variant of the GACA system, for the reasons he cites:

GACA --> " the problem is once a chick said no, you pressuring her to get to yes makes them feel like you don't respect them. " --> end quote GACA

I also don't like to use coercion with women.

And like JohnSmith69 clarifies, what GACA is proposing requires a lot of self control on part of the PL.

I'd see her ITC, but I wouldn't spend nearly as much. I'd spend less than $100, in my case, I'd buy maybe 2 dances ($20 at my club, $40 at other clubs). I'd enjoy the dances with her, but I'd spend more on the other dancers, the ones who will give you want you want.

Maybe DS will change her mind on her own. My take is if she wants a lot more of your $$$ again, she'll need to give it up some (sex in your case, mileage in my case).

I liken it to the positive reinforcement I use when training my dogs (no, I'm not comparing dancers to dogs. Although who doesn't like being fed and having his or her belly rubbed? :) ) I like using positive reinforcement. I reward positive behavior. So when she starts to change her behavior and changes what she'll do, I up the spending slightly (if she changes slightly) or up the spending a lot (if she changes a lot). If she wants to change, she'll change her behavior accordingly.

The problem is, with what I'm proposing, for the foreseeable future she's just going to be "the fluffer chick," --> "the one scraping out $20 or $40 from you when you go to finish with the other dancers." And spending $$ (hundreds) on the other dancers, is showing to her and others that you reward positive behavior. Here the dancer always chooses.

I only stop spending completely when she turns ROB: miscounts dances, inflates dance prices, asks for a tip, etc. But once she's cross off to me, she's done, and I never buy from her again. Otherwise she can count on a little money from me from time to time.

When I go to the club, I really don't want to play games. I just want to spend money and have a good time with the ladies. If you read SCJ forum, it is more of less a variant (IMO) of the Chili Palmer method.

clarification: I'm not saying through omission that other advice from the other PLs are suggesting coercion or forcing yourself on the woman. No. JohnSmith's advice clearly works on the right woman and I respect that.

Float your intent, but then quickly change the subject or convo. I don't like putting women on the spot, to wait for a yes or no out of them. I let her respond when she's ready. You're more likely to get a yes response.

Here r my suggestions:

1. Get Lypo for your flabby gut or actually try working out
2. Get penis enlargement surgery to turn ur 2 incher into something respectable
3. Offer her more money, u cheap sob
4. Try bathing
5. Expensive jewelry works for me
6. Offer to fly her to Paris and fuck her there

Good luck!

-->"I've never tried Subra's approach but I can see how it could work."

I can't even count how many times I've used it... it's worked so well for me, that if I sense the slightest bit of hesitation when I first ask about OTC, I now just offer it up automatically. Girls who would have said no, or who would have made me put in weeks more work, say yes because of it, IMO. The "risk" that all I'll get is the BJ (first world problems!) is more than made up for by the fact that I don't have to keep working on her for weeks-- or, alternatively, give up and drop her completely.

And more than a few times, it turned out there was a surprise upside: if all we're agreeing to is HJ or BJ, I gently point out that I shouldn't be paying a FS price. And, I find, once it's set, "the price is the price"... I don't think I've ever had girl say, "well, you're only paying me $X because we negotiated for a HJ, but now that I"m fucking you, I want more." So, we agree to a HJ price, and in short order we're doing FS, and the price hasn't changed.

carolynne, it's nice to see you posting again. I'll try to follow your suggestions.

@Lone_Wolf: You don't mention if you're getting anything *in* the club? Are you?

Been in that situation a few times. I wouldn't put up with an ultimatum *from* a dancer, so in the interests of not being a hypocrite, JS's "put out or get out" plan is right out.

I've done *almost* that though. Basically, after a period of pursuit, "look, I'd really rather spend time with you *outside* the club, but if you really don't want to, let me know and I'll stop bugging you about it."

If the answer is no, I know to move on. Sometimes that elicits acquiescence, and other times "sayonara." Ya throws yer dice, and ya takes yer chances. Something like that worked with my ATF. That worked out pretty well. :)

I think what Subraman suggests would work, if you've really developed a rapport.

Weird thread.

I'm having trouble imagining a high % of girls falling into this weird category where they cannot wrap their heads around OTC fucking, but are otherwise perfectly ok with being with being alone with the guy, in a private setting, and making contact with his exposed penis in other ways in order to get him off. Are these girls recent high school graduates? I'm also struggling with this notion that you are going to talk her down to a "handjob price" to start when she is already reluctant to go OTC, unless of course the discounted HJ payment is generous in its own right.

But, with all of that said, it is a big wide world out there. Maybe you guys are meeting different types of girls or your approaches bring you to different crossing points. *shrug*

Lone_Wolf, if I was in your shoes I would cut bait and stop throwing good money after bad. By now, after all of your spending and even platonic OTC meets, she's made it pretty clear that right now she wants nothing to do with your penis, whether tugging it or sticking it in her pussy. This sounds like a combo stringalong game/romance hustle.

IMHO the problem is that you have over-chased her and now you need to shift the power dynamic back, if that is even possible. The only way to do that is to withhold your money and stay away. If she doesn't try to reach out, then she doesn't need your cash and you were never going to score. If she does reach out, be slow to respond and still stay out of the club for a couple of weeks. If she needs the money bad enough, she will start to chase you - don't give in. Then, when you finally return to the club, let her know that, as much as you like her, your serious spending and limited time need to go to "friends" who help meet your needs. You can tell her that you would love it if she wanted to be that type of friend, but if not then you would understand. This puts the ball in her court while leaving a strong lever in your hands, but only if you stay disciplined and don't give her any more serious money until she makes the right choice.

I have broken open some of my best OTC gigs this way, though I was not spending huge on them in the first place. I was spending just enough that they valued the contribution and missed the money when I stopped, yet they also knew that acceding to my wishes would get them not only old money back, but also more behind it.

In any event, good luck!

Only if someone could write a system

:)

I can only imagine any women reading this & how they are rolling their eyes - LOL

^^^ Then they would be as ignorant as that comment was Señor Chulo. ;)

I don't know much w.r.t. scoring OTC w/ hard-targets or w.r.t. women in general - my game is the equivalent of a 3rd-string QB in the Canadian Football League - but in my simple PL-mind IMO often times the more one pushes someone the more the person often will dig in their heels & if often becomes counterproductive.

In my limited game I've often noticed that acting disinterested instead of pushy/demanding works out better.

-->"I'm having trouble imagining a high % of girls falling into this weird category where they cannot wrap their heads around OTC fucking, but are otherwise perfectly ok with being with being alone with the guy, in a private setting, and making contact with his exposed penis in other ways in order to get him off."

I'm surprised anyone has trouble imagining it! Is it really not common knowledge that for many people, there's a giant chasm between HJ (which, to some people, barely even counts as sex) and BJ and FS, which is why the sex industry is segmented between HJ-only bodyrub girls and FS escorts... And the exact same thing is true of customers, who pick their provider based on their comfort level with particular acts. There's an enormous bodyrub provider segment because all those bodyrub girls have set their personal limits there -- bodyrub girls are bodyrub girls because they exactly are comfortable with being alone with a guy and giving a HJ, but not being alone with a guy and giving FS (and there's "bodyrub+" girls who are also comfortable with BJ but not FS)... It was not remotely a shock to me that girls in non-extras clubs, if they are teetering on the fence, could be persuaded OTC with a lower service level that was within their comfort range -- limited touching and no extras ITC to FS OTC is a giant leap. I would have been surprised if an offer of a lower service level DIDN'T help nudge a girl to saying yes.

good suggestions JS69, Gaca, Subra, GMD, Rickdugan.

In the world of serious mongering there are two primary types.
First type want a warm hole and stress relief. Chinese call it Happy Ending. This is 80% of the mongers.
Second type (~20%) want the journey to be equally enjoyable as the happy ending. Call it GFE, romance or whatever - these mongers are looking for a multi hour fun experience - and take the time/effort to make sure their partner has a good time as well. The Type 1's have no time or patience for this type of shit. Wam Bam Thank You Mam.

This thread is about the minority mongers. The Second type.
When they get fixated on a potential lover - the little head takes over. It's kinda bad news in terms of spending lots of money and time - but the suggestions presented here are good ones.

rickdugan does not understand subramans approach but a number of non-extra dancers are open to that. A line is crossed, in a woman's mind, when she decides to become a topless or a nude dancer. Then another line is crossed when the dancer decides to fuck and suck for money. Other forms of contact are between these two lines (minus DFK).

Different $$$ rates for HJ, BJ, FS were created by Type 1s. A Type 2 probably pays FS prices even for a HJ because he is paying for the girls time.

^^^ good suggestion also from dominic77

I guess my inability to wrap my arms around arranging OTC for a HJ stems from the fact that I've never tried. If it works for some of you then cool beans, but I don't see myself ever going that route. Just too much of a pain in the ass for me to first finally get a girl out and then to try to convince her to take it further, nevermind all the ways in which that could go wrong.

@papi, I agree. That is why I am suggesting that he pull his cash and, if she misses it badly enough, make her chase him. It is easy to convey the words that one could/should use on here, but either you understand how to deliver them or you don't. IMHO a guy who comes off as needy, angry or just plain butt hurt is going to struggle with getting all but the most high volume strippers OTC, regardless of what he does or says.

This sounds a bit like dating. Disappear for awhile. Don't return calls or texts. Then come back at the end of a month and pay attention to others, but reserve the $$$ for her IF she comes around. If it's meant to be she will. If it's not, there's surely another DS around the corner.

@JS69 I dunno man. That's too soft. If your "easygoing" with her, she's just gonna pull at your heartstrings more. There comes a point in time (and money) where you gotta put your foot down, pull up your pants to your chest and point blank ask, "are we gonna fuck or what". At that point either she destroys your illusion or she completes the pursuit ritual. Sometimes women will cut the bullshit string pulling when you leave no more room for fantasy maybes. Could save you a wee bit of cash and tells her to dip fast because you're not paying for that last meal she just ate.

I appreciate all the thoughtful input. Good stuff.

Yea, the amazing honey that spurred this topic is now firmly in the "OTC not going to happen" bucket. Sadly, no change in parameters, increased offers or ultimatum is going to change that (probably). As dugan stated, I may have over pursued this one.

Even being a non-extras dancer, the honey is easily in the top 5 percent of earners in the sc. That's just how fine she is.

When pursuing the finer talent for OTC, it is just reality that a good percentage (majority) will not be open to OTC. It is always a challenge knowing when to disengage from the pursuit.