Marriage and Family, Would You Do It Again?
san_jose_guy
money was invented for handing to women, but buying dances is a chump's game
Not everyone, but are large portion of our regular posters here are middle aged men who had married and had children. Now they are either divorced or their marriages have turned to pure shit. And so many of us are extremely down on marriage and would never do it again. I know this does not apply to everyone, but it does apply to many.
So if you are male and you are completely down on marriage, and if you had your life to live over again, what would you do about having children?
1. Have no children.
2. Give your sperm to a donor bank.
3. As a single parent adopt a child.
4. Befriend a single mother and become a kind of non-residential non-married surrogate father to her children.
5. Marry a single mother but have no children of your own with her.
6. Volunteer with Big Brothers of America.
7. Practice the system for well off European men, the Wife-Mistress system. So you have the wife with the children and the mistress for sex.
8. Join a celibate religious order.
9. Have children on purpose with a woman you have no intention of marrying.
10. Just let the above happen, but don't specifically set it up that way. I remember Jack Nicholson and the country singer Clint Black had situations like this.
11. Join a non-celibate but non-marital commune, and have children with one or more of their women, but there is no marriage or other familial separation.
12. Just don't even think about anything, just do as JS69 said, "Grab all the pussy I can", and never think further ahead than the next one.
How many of you would have a vasectomy at an early age, without having any children or doing any sperm banking, and understanding that as of today vasectomies need to be considered irreversible?
The anti-child abuse crusader Andrew Vachss did something like that, in his early 20's.
Consider also that if you are going to intentionally have children without being married, then you are directly challenging the premises of the middle-class. And then for you to do this, do you feel that you need to be of such a high income that the ordinary rules do not apply to you? Or have you really thought about the premises of middle-class life and learned to reject them?
Of course anyone is welcome to reply and comment on this subject. Just, if you are not a man who is down on marriage, please give us some idea of who you are and where you are coming from so that we can better understand your position.
SJG
https://sites.google.com/site/sjgportal/
Andrew Vachss
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMYZr4AM…
Quicksilver Messenger Service
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dn1Bdhuy…
So if you are male and you are completely down on marriage, and if you had your life to live over again, what would you do about having children?
1. Have no children.
2. Give your sperm to a donor bank.
3. As a single parent adopt a child.
4. Befriend a single mother and become a kind of non-residential non-married surrogate father to her children.
5. Marry a single mother but have no children of your own with her.
6. Volunteer with Big Brothers of America.
7. Practice the system for well off European men, the Wife-Mistress system. So you have the wife with the children and the mistress for sex.
8. Join a celibate religious order.
9. Have children on purpose with a woman you have no intention of marrying.
10. Just let the above happen, but don't specifically set it up that way. I remember Jack Nicholson and the country singer Clint Black had situations like this.
11. Join a non-celibate but non-marital commune, and have children with one or more of their women, but there is no marriage or other familial separation.
12. Just don't even think about anything, just do as JS69 said, "Grab all the pussy I can", and never think further ahead than the next one.
How many of you would have a vasectomy at an early age, without having any children or doing any sperm banking, and understanding that as of today vasectomies need to be considered irreversible?
The anti-child abuse crusader Andrew Vachss did something like that, in his early 20's.
Consider also that if you are going to intentionally have children without being married, then you are directly challenging the premises of the middle-class. And then for you to do this, do you feel that you need to be of such a high income that the ordinary rules do not apply to you? Or have you really thought about the premises of middle-class life and learned to reject them?
Of course anyone is welcome to reply and comment on this subject. Just, if you are not a man who is down on marriage, please give us some idea of who you are and where you are coming from so that we can better understand your position.
SJG
https://sites.google.com/site/sjgportal/
Andrew Vachss
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMYZr4AM…
Quicksilver Messenger Service
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dn1Bdhuy…
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38 comments
If you don't mind my asking, and I know this is extremely personal and that you might not want to say anything, would you like to tell us something about why you never got married?
SJG
https://sites.google.com/site/sjgportal/
You know of course you were one of the main people I had in mind when posing the question.
So would you like the European Wife-Mistress system? Or does it need to be lots and lots of girls, and probably girls younger than mistress age? A mistress is also an intellectual companion, only somewhat younger than the wife. Sugar Babies are entirely different.
What you are suggesting though is expensive. Many could never afford to live like that, even like you do now. Any suggestions to them?
Would you want to divorce early, after the fires went out, or would you want the kids to be grown?
And don't you think the kids know that there is something seriously wrong anyway? And really, don't you think the kids are being used as a façade and that this is wrong, and that instead people should publicly stand up for what they believe in?
And even in your case, have you tried to figure out how things went bad. It can't be just the wife. And besides, you are the one who married her.
And I guess really, don't you think there should be some better solution than what you have described?
Thanks for your frankness.
SJG
https://sites.google.com/site/sjgportal/
KBC Band, Live
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebGaDgss…
About 10 years ago she really started to change. 6 years ago she was diagnosed with Alzheimer's. I told her I'd be there for her. She now is just about totally dependent on me. About the time of her diagnosis I started serious strip clubbing which I continue as much as my wallet allows.
I now need to hire a care giver when I go out ( or get one of our kids or someone else) to supervise my wife. If I were the one with Alzheimer's, I know she'd do the same for me.
My kids are now in their 40's and are professionally very successful and both have young children. My grandkids are a constant source of joy and I wouldn't trade the experience of grand parenting for anything.
My extramarital fucking around has been crazy, fun, sexually gratifying and at the risk of sounding corny, it's kept me feeling young. My ATF is still my ideal at the advanced age of 30 but since she started taking me for granted and increasing her lies and broken promises, I've moved on to greener pastures.
What would I do differently? Not a lot. I spent time at age 40 with a college frat brother who was a divorce attorney. He convinced me that if we divorced I'd have been living in a studio apartment or a trailer and working weekends in a package store in order to pay alimony and child support. While I think he exaggerated, in retrospect I'm glad I stayed with it. Caregiving is a bitch (unless you enjoy scooping shit off the floor) and I frequently get depressed about my day to day life, but a couple of hours in VIP provide salve for the wounds.
But I would still pose a few things. First of all, if getting divorced would be that bad, then doesn't that suggest that there is also something wrong with marriage?
And then finally, do you think there could be some other types of social arrangements which are better. I mean we all get old. For all of us our faculties will eventually fail. Some of us just don't live long enough for that to happen. But for some it happens prematurely and then people also get disabled or develop chronic conditions. So care must be given, but also it is important that people make the most of what they are still able to do.
So consider all the parties, you, your wife, your children, and then also your ATF and some of you main regulars. Do you think there could be some sort of alternative social arrangements which would be better for all parties?
As I look at it, and I have though about you and your affairs before, it seems that some sort of communalism could be better. Yes, probably the young women would be in high demand for sex. That would be most of what they do. But I still think it could be better. Women would transition into other roles and they would be valued in other ways.
Thanks,
SJG
https://sites.google.com/site/sjgportal/
It's a Beautiful Day w/ Bill Graham, 1970
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOn8vl0X…
I'm not opposed to people who have monogamy and it works. And of course I would never want anyone to be coerced.
I think some variety of communalism would be better. But of course this attacks the ideology of the middle class family straight on.
For myself I was willing to live up to my marriage vows, and specifically to refrain from doing things which violated them or otherwise were a source of contention.
But the limit was when in other ways my ex-wife was just not a partner. She was using the marriage itself as a weapon. And of course no one could ever gain from this in anyway.
I could well have lost 20 years of my life from that. Have to see. It was a nightmare, living hell.
My wife was someone who would never have been sexually unfaithful. She wouldn't do that because she always wanted to be right. Her unfaithfulness came in the idolatrous relationship she developed with money, and with the people she associated with who promoted this.
Anyway, I don't really want to go into this. I'd rather let others post their views first.
But again, FullPress, I really like your attitude. And I am sure that the TJ girls must really enjoy all the silicone lubricated GFE and bubble baths, and overtime napping with the both of you.
Even though I am just one male, I hope to be doing the same sorts of things with their girls, and I hope it is not too much further out.
SJG
https://sites.google.com/site/sjgportal/
It's a Beautiful Day w/ Bill Graham, 1970
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOn8vl0X…
SJG - If I had to do it again, I wouldn't change a thing. I wouldn't trade my kids for anything and while my ex-wife and I had some issues in the early stages of the divorce, we are friends again and work together to raise our children. Would I get married again ill never say never, but it would be about a 10% chance. I enjoy my ability to do what I want when I want (for the most part when I don't have the kids). My mindset might change when the kids are out of the house, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
And then if that could be, should there be some sort of a communal structure which could be a support to all of the parties?
I mean you got married and then you found it necessary to terminate it. So wouldn't zero marriage from the outset have been better?
SJG
https://sites.google.com/site/sjgportal/
Santana 2000
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48z01HxV…
I like security. Others could give a damn. I have an older brother who married at age 42 and divorced at age 42 1/2. Now in his mid 70's he's alone and wouldn't have it any other way. His choice.
There is no answer, per se, to many of your queries because of the unique qualities we all have.
You ask if divorce is that bad isn't there something wrong with marriages? If my wife had not given me license to wander I'm sure our marriage would have ended. There's plenty wrong with marriage for some. There's plenty good about marriage for others. You're trying to put humans in boxes and categorize. It doesn't work in America. Maybe in North Korea...
I know I would not survive the wife/mistress scenario in France for five minutes, no matter what biology says about how men and women's sex drives differ in the long run. There is no way I'm going to be put out to pasture doing the dishes while said husband is off doing the deed with a younger hotter version of me. I'm not by nature jealous, but if he gets to have an adventure. I get to have an adventure. he will always get more out of the threesomes than I will, and that's fine. I just want to be there for the fun of it, not hear about it later.
do you think your mail order bride walked out on you because of cultural incompatibilities or was it the universal gender based repugnancy all females have toward you?
if cultural, will you buy a girl from a different country next time or,
if gender based repugnancy, does that explain your plan to live in a Ford van under the radar in a Denny’s parking lot with a roll of Duct Tape and a pocket full of GHB?
of course you needn’t answer if it is too personal or if your shyster lawyer told you not to incriminate yourself again
But I am also concerned as TUSCL seems to be dominated by a particular type of well off and politically conservative white male. And I am also coming to think that maybe having lots of money, so much so that one can go through a divorce without anyone having to live a socially marginalized life, tends to discourage self examination. I'm starting to feel that the income level needed to be able to go thru a divorce and enjoy strip club dancers is so high that it alone imposes the requirement of social conformity, and could be seen as a different version of North Korea. Not sure yet. Lets see.
But gawker, for those who selected it, don't you think some sort of communal structure could be helpful, providing economic and social security, along with more and better sex, and more support for cases of disability and illness?
@FullPress, thank you for explaining that. The life that you and your husband live is interesting, especially in light of all you have said about doings in Mexico.
The Wife-Mistress system is certainly practiced in Mexico. In David Stuart's Guyamas Chronicles he is eating Sunday afternoon lunch with the core group of night club hookers, and they are incredulous that the same system is not used in the US. One of them asks, "And the Mayor of your town, he does not have a woman he keeps in a house somewhere?" Stuart replies, "Especially not someone like that; the voters would not approve." Then he goes on to explain that we have women doctors, attorneys, airline pilots, and corporate CEO's. The leader of the hooker group was really taken back and said, "Just imagine, a life which does not depend on sex appeal."
She and most of the others of that core group with their heads screwed on straight did have guys who were keeping them. They would fly off on Monday mornings, away from the small fishing port, to be with these guys in the centers of finance and industry. Then they would return a few days later for the busier part of the week, to service the locals.
But I agree that it is based on hypocrisy, saying one thing in public and then doing something else, and then raising children in such a duplicitous environment.
But I also feel that many divorces among the American middle class are another version of the same thing. The wife is being, as you say, put out to pasture. Maybe it is not just because of age, but it is because the marriage was not, and maybe most marriages were never, workable in the first place.
As far as what sorts of things middle-aged and older women do with their time, that has been a subject of interest for me as well. Probably it will be related to what they learned and practiced when they were younger. Marriage may not be the best preparation for middle and later years.
I certainly never would have divorced my own wife unless things had just become completely unworkable and I was convinced that further attempts at resolution were futile and that she was just becoming more harmful each day. I always knew that I would have to live the rest of my life with what I did. This is also why I was not engaging in any extra marital affairs or P4P at the time. I wanted to keep my side of the street clean, and not allow myself to be influenced by any outside parties, or be causing any outside parties to feel what was going on.
I think you are in part responding to what I related about my mother disapproving of Swingers. There are large numbers of such persons in the US. Most of them are registered Republicans and hold politically conservative views. Of the people who write about it, they are convinced that it is the women who want it more than the men.
What you are describing in Mexico, the threesomes, would qualify as a kind of Swinging, even though the third person is a hired escort. Many Swingers only do it this way, threesomes with an outside woman.
But as I can see, the defining characteristic of Swingers seems to be elitism. Any time I have read any of what they say this comes right out. The defining characteristic of their organizations is how they exclude people, really exclude people who are not sufficiently conformist.
@rh48hr
"but I believe in the commitment of marriage"
I know that all of us will initiate things with the best of intentions, only to have failure. Do you think marriage is a high risk undertaking?
I'm getting the feeling here that you are someone who as always had a large income, and that this has been the key to smoothing the process of divorce, so that no one has had to suffer any public shame or humiliation. Of course you don't have to reply to this, and I'm not meaning any negative judgment here. If I am wrong about this, so be it.
For many people a failed marriage and divorce are so disruptive to their lives that they will be socially marginalized forever.
I am suspecting that a smooth divorce and rapid rebuilding of a new life may be only something enjoyed by the well off.
As you have said that you have children, would you want a son or daughter of yours to marry, knowing that it could fail? Do you think better social arrangements could be developed, lower risk, and just overall better for all parties?
@impala
So then you are the one down on marriage? All these other guys really aren't. I remember it was you who posted about bedding a hotel desk clerk. That sounds like tremendous fun!
But what about having kids? That was my original reason for starting this thread. Of course you don't have to say anything you don't want to. If you are down on marriage so that if you had your life to live over again and did not marry, then what would you do about the prospect of having children?
SJG
https://sites.google.com/site/sjgportal/…
Traffic '94
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0tf8FIP…
Also, are you someone who is down on marriage, so much so that if you could live your life over again that you would not do it? And then if so, what would you do about having children?
SJG
https://sites.google.com/site/sjgportal/…
Traffic '94
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0tf8FIP…
Depending on what you consider high risk, I don't think marriage is high risk. But others who married a crazy person might feel differently.
The smooth divorce is more a fact that my ex and I really just came to the realization we couldn't live together anymore, not that we hated each other. We are still friends. The issue we had after the divorce had to do with her not liking the women I was dating and not wanting them around the kids.
I would never tell my children to not get married. If they find the right person and are happy, I'll be happy for them. Failure is a part of life, anything you do in life there is a chance for failure and you can't avoid doing something just because you might fail.
So it sounds then like you are not down on marriage, and if you had your life to live over again that you probably would marry and have children with your wife.
And I hear you about your income. But also understand that for many even being able to support a wife and children, with the ways our economic system has changed, would be very hard. Each one of @Dougster's boom and bust cycles drives more people into the underclass.
Also some of us have been married to crazy people. And for some, even if the spouse was not crazy, they were determined to wage war, and the collateral effects of this have been extreme.
Thank you for being so frank. This is what I was hoping for, that people with different ideas would explain how they see it.
SJG
https://sites.google.com/site/sjgportal/…
Marriage is an outdated institution.
I can do everything I need to do in life by just living with someone. I don't need a legal piece of paper to do that.
Would never, ever, ever, get married again. Once has been one too many times for me.
What would you do about having children? In the original post I offer a range of ideas you might consider. But I really do want to know what it is that you would do.
SJG
https://sites.google.com/site/sjgportal/…
i see you have elected to follow your shyster lawyer’s advice and not say anything incriminating. good decision. you don’t need another parole violation
your ex-mail order bride must have hurt you very deeply when she dumped your ass to have evoked such hostility. you REALLY should take your meds
Much of what I like about people is our uniqueness. If we're evaluating beauty my 10 may be your 8. I read Papi Chulo's descriptions of his favorites and I shudder. Not because he's right and I'm wrong or vice versa but because our tastes differ.. Thank goodness. He might look at my ATF and shudder that anyone in their right mind could get turned on by a skinny-assed anemic little pale-skinned waif. So if you're looking for commitment and fealty in a group ( more than two) the chances are that it will be short lived
As people change times change also. Not too many years ago it was next to impossible for a single woman to be able to support herself in a decent lifestyle. Today we're getting much closer to gender equality. Despite continuing issues/problems, I look at racial equality and compare it to the 1950's and progress is being made. If our society can come close to achieving equal opportunity then the institution of marriage may become passé for those not bound by religious beliefs and alternative arrangements replacing a monagamous relationship may emerge as more mainstream occurances.
Your statement that right wing conservative men are more likely to be able to afford some of the sugar baby/sugar daddy arrangements described herein is specious. I grew up in the 1940's living in an unheated cellar until I was 12 years old in the mid 50's. I was the first member of my family to earn a Master's degree. My daughter was the first in our family with a doctorate. My highest salary was in 2002 when I earned $103,000.
I grew up with Republcan parents who thought Roosevelt was the devil incarnate. I followed their lead into the 60's when social injustice entered my consciousness and I've had a more progressive or liberal take since then. I'm registered as "unenrolled" and from some perspectives lean towards a Libertarian point of view. I come from a long line of investors who buy high and sell low.. My point is that we're all different; we all should have learned in 8th grade not to generalize, and our beliefs and motivations vary greatly.
I selected my question carefully, laying out the having children issue and challenging people who have had bad marriages to see what they would say.
I suggested all the various alternatives I could think of. I'm not actually endorsing any of them.
But no, people are not seeking alternatives or putting forth a rainbow of patterns. Instead they are, at least so far, sticking to the most conservative and normative choice, marriage with all the private property rules, and that they should have children and that these children should be raised in a middle-class family by two married parents, so that the children will have to support the institution.
So while you talk like everyone is a freethinking individual, what is being posted so far suggests exactly the opposite.
And so yes, this does look like the American version of Europe's Wife-Mistress system. Well off white males who are deeply committed to marriage and property accumulation and who spout off Horatio Alger stories on cue, but who actually use their positions of privilege to have outside pussy and to amelioriate the anti-sexual neuroticism of the very life style, middle class marriage, which they still uphold.
So of course many such persons will treat their P4P women as shit, because according to the middle-class family system, these women are without standing. But they come in handy for someone with money to use when they can't stand their marriage any longer.
And then further gawker, you are trying to impugn me for my very line of questioning, simply asking people what they would do if they had to do it all over again. I am suggesting that they might like to take a long hard look at how they have lived and what they really believe. You are suggesting that there is something controlling or sinister about that.
SJG
https://sites.google.com/site/sjgportal/…
Stones, Heartbreaker
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqUiWpGG…
I guess in one or more of those parallel universes my doppelgänger hooked up with a hot girl or two I knew in college and got married and had kids and never went to a strip club. I just hope I don't wake up and find a girl claiming to be my wife that I want nothing to do with. That would be switching to a parallel universe nightmare.
I'm holding back on saying what I think, because I don't want to inhibit others.
But thanks.
So, I know that lots of people here on TUSCL have survived very hard marriages. But most also have kids. So if you could be young again and live life over, what would you do? And especially, what would you do about having kids?
And if your marriage has been hard, would you want a son or daughter of yours to marry?
I guess I can also ask this, would you want a daughter of yours to be a stripper? Work at a brothel in Nevada or Mexico? Be the subject of a TUSCL strip club visit review?
Do you think your hard marriage was just luck of the draw, curious aspects of the specific individuals, or do you think there is something fundamentally wrong with the our society?
SJG
https://sites.google.com/site/sjgportal/…
Marriage has been the best thing that has ever happened to me.
Eventually, I met a younger woman and we dated for several years, which was also great, until that ended. The breakup was also painful and took me a long time to get over.
Now, I just found a new sugar baby. My 2nd one in two weeks. This one is absolutely beautiful. Probably the most beautiful woman I've ever been on a date with. We're both looking for a long term relationship and our first date when really well, so date #2 is this weekend. She said she feels really comfortable with me and is ready to get intimate on our 2nd date.
So, would I get married again, despite all the ups and downs? Absolutely. In retrospect, I'm glad I'm divorced now because of the blue skies ahead, but I don't regret having been married. Even with the pain it caused me, we had a lot of great years and I grew a lot as a person, by being around her for so many years.
http://w11.hai.org/stan/
On network stations he couldn't usually say what he really thought, but on independent stations he could. He always said, "The best marriages end in divorce."
By this I think he meant that in many marriages people are just so broken down that they are unable to divorce. This is what nearly happened to me in my marriage. I survived, but just barely.
Where as what Stan Dale seems to mean is that the best marriages make people grow, and so they are free to celebrate by moving on.
I know that many on TUSCL have gone through very hard marriages, and so I am surprised that they don't say things more critical about the institution as a whole,
And then as someone who realized that if I was not going to accept things as they were with my wife, that I would have to divorce and that I could not make a permanent lifestyle out of using P4P to cheat, I am surprised by those who post here on tuscl and are using P4P to cheat while posting such glowing praises for their wives. To me that is the ultimate in hypocrisy.
SJG
Acid Jazz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxeANFW2…