Newbie, going too hard for one dancer?

IMO Yes. Your are getting fucked and not in a good way. I would give her an ultimatum to put up or shut up. I'm aware you are not in a good area for extras. Road trip.

"Am I spending too much on this and going overboard?" - It is your money and your decision.

"Should I ask if she wants to do something OTC?" - Sure, feel free. What comes of it, though, might very much not be what you're after. For her, it might very well just be a way to squeeze money out of you.

"Bonus question: should I try to kiss her on the lips in the VIP or not" - Let's discuss in Study Hall. Right now I have to hurry to Algebra.

shadowcat is right on this one.

If dancers want to kiss you, they will kiss you. I would think you trying to kiss her and her backing away from it would be awkward. In my opinion you are spending too much for what you are getting. A normal civilian date is probably out of the question since you've already spent a lot of money on her already, but P4P might be available.

I'm not sure what you want from her

Do you want to date her (for free)?

Or do you want to pay her to see her OTC?

@ranukam- yeah that's what I was thinking, could be awkward, but maybe could just shrug it off..

@motorhead- good question actually, I would say date for free with the implication being to pay for all dating related activities and maybe giving occasional gifts.

Keep in mind you're talking to a bunch of grizzled veterans, many of whom:
1. Have the same ultimate goal, even if we go about it different ways: sex with a stripper
2. Have made the same set of mistakes in learning how to acquire #1

******* --Am I spending too much on this and going overboard?

Only you can say that. If you've got money to burn and this interaction is meeting your needs, then sure. But no one here is going to tell you that it's cost-effective to spend $900/trip in order to not have sex with a stripper. If you were my buddy, I would be coaching you in a completely different direction.

**** --Should I ask if she wants to do something OTC? but NOT ask about sex, JUST to do something, (And if that leads to sex alright.. but if not then not.)

If you're trying to make her your actual girlfriend, I would urge you to go read the threads here about why most of us wouldn't wish stripper girlfriends on our worst enemies. I know she's the awesome-est chick ever in the club -- that's not what she's like, it a character she's playing to attract you and get you to do something dumb, like spend $900 to not have sex with her in the VIP :) :) Not making fun of you, just some tough love. If, instead, your goal is to have sex with her for free, well, I've gotten to be friends-with-benefits with a few strippers, but things always started out the same way: me asking to see her outside the club, for sex. To answer your question, my advice: ask her if she's interested in OTC, for sex, if you're interested in having sex with her.

****** --Like for instance ask if she wants to do something like a regular date. And if she agrees treat it like a regular dating progression like doing fun stuff and trying to escalate and kiss/sex at some point in the series of OTC dates like a regular dating progression....

I have a feeling you're a regular-in-love and going to do what you want anyway. This is a horrific mistake, but maybe you have to make it yourself. The one question I have is: if you're spending $900 to not have sex with her in the club, what's your problem with spending $250 to having sex with her outside the club? Spend less, get more, win-win, right? Unless you're already too emotionally attached...

********* Bonus question: should I try to kiss her on the lips in the VIP or not

I don't usually kiss strippers on the lips, but the few times I have, she touched her lips to mine first... as a general rule, in the very few cases where a stripper wanted more from me, she pursued it, I didn't have to guess. In all honesty, though, maybe trying to kiss her would actually be doing you a favor -- if she's not trying kiss you, and you try to kiss her, she'll reject you hard, your bubble will get burst, and perhaps you won't continue down this path. That said, I don't begrudge a new guy from making his own terrible mistakes, as long as it doesn't cost you too much financially and emotionally (and believe me, these girls can tear a regular-in-love apart)

*********** Thanks for reading, sorry if this is a stupid thread.......

Not a stupid thread. Kind of refreshing to get someone in here who isn't already a battle-hardened veteran or a troll.

@Subraman- Awesome reply thank you very much, seriously your reply is detailed and insightful and gives me things to think about.
And the kiss thing is an interesting point, if she's not down then maybe it will be like a dose of reality like wtf are you doing she's not down.
(The tearing a regular-in-love apart) is also a good point and I'm wary of that as well.

One more thing you mentioned, you may be right I might be too emotionally attached, as I think paying her for her time in the club is business but would tend to think, even if it costs less, that straight up paying OTC without a relationship would be too much like she doesn't mean anything to me. So I might be emotionally attached I guess
@Subraman again, thanks for taking the time to reply!

You spending OTC money on her now. I would cut down club visits and ramp up the OTC. And yes, you should be having sex! The fact you mention an OTC with no sex is troublesome. You're spending significant money on her so get your value.

You're welcome!

****** "One more thing you mentioned, you may be right I might be too emotionally attached, as I think paying her for her time in the club is business but would tend to think, even if it costs less, that straight up paying OTC without a relationship would be too much like she doesn't mean anything to me. So I might be emotionally attached I guess "

I knew that, I was just wondering if you knew that ...lol. BTW, if she doesn't kiss you back, you have some important info; if she does, it doesn't mean much, other than, she's willing to go the extra mile to keep her $400-$900/trip regular.

One last bit of advice: I know it seems like you've heard stories like this between customers and strippers before, but somehow, with you it's DIFFERENT. It's not different, it''s the same, we've heard your story a zillion times. And, you're probably older than her, and better educated, and smarter... doesn't matter, when it comes to getting men emotionally attached and separating them from their money, she's far better at being the predator than you are at being wiley prey. It's not even like she's the cat and you're the mouse, it's more like she's the orca and you're the baby seal frolicking in the surf; you just don't realize it yet :)

Damn Subra. You are just full of truth. Love it.

The above points out one of the big differences between the seasoned and the newbs: Knowing what you want. It sounds like you're throwing money at her and Hoping it goes somewhere fun instead of Leading it somewhere fun.

Ha, thanks GACA... fun to have a newbie around tossing softballs :)

Some good advice above already. And @alldaylong said it very well. You need to lead not follow with the dancers. Good luck and have fun.

You probably should diversify your dancer portfolio.

You're paying more for the level of service you're receiving than the market rate.

If you want her to be your sugarbaby that's fine, but you need to be clear about what you want and understand that when the money dries up, suddenly she won't be around anymore.

Since everybody else covered the meat of your issue, I'll nitpick.

For future reference, nobody here minds if you spell out "dick" and "pussy." Or any other so called cuss word.

You like this stripper, but she shows no evidence of liking you. She takes a lot of money from you, and gives too little in return. A hot girl like this has a boyfriend, and you are only an ATM.

I think you should find another dancer who will at least kiss you and give you more action for the money you spend. With this new dancer, let her know the first time that you are interested in sex whether ITC or OTC. There's no need to be coy with strippers. They get asked for sex all the time.

You are not the first guy to “fall for a stripper” and won't be the last – thus the comments you seen on here.

Strip clubs are bizarro world – i.e. the opposite of the real world – in the real world men approach women and try to get the cuchie; in the SC bizarro world women approach men and try to get their wallet.

Of course “she likes you” - in dives most guys pay $200, or a bit more, and get sucked and fucked – you've paid close to $1k on some visits just to touch her pussy – a lot of guys; especially in dives; touch pussy during the course of a regular dance (not the norm; but def not that rare either).

You are a good/prosperous CUSTOMER – that is how she sees you no matter how it looks – what you see/feel when you are with her is an illusion; a mirage; it's not real even if it looks and feels real; thus why it's a mirage.

Ask yourself this – are you able to score w/ women like this in a non SC setting – if yes – then why mess w/ a stripper and the baggage that comes w/ it (and believe me; there is baggage there) – if you can't score w/ women like this outside the club; then what makes you think you can all of a sudden score w/ this one; b/c of what she does with you for $$$?

Too many guys want a stripper to feel the void of a S.O. - and that is def trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

THIS IS ABOUT $$$. No matter how it looks, smells, or feels – if it's not; then stop paying her and pursue her as a love interest and then see how well that goes – a guy should not have to pay a chick $2k/month for her to become interested in him – right?

If you want a GF; go to the library and get a nice girl that wants to go out with *you* and not your wallet – if you want to mess with strippers; the best you can hope is to get what you want sexually but I doubt you will get her to feel for you the way you apparently feel for her.

You can't be paying her and hoping she'll be into you romantically at the same time- it's either or.

You should go to StripperWeb.com and read some of the comments dancers make of custies on there – it's pretty eye-opening.

@Subraman- what do you think about this.. I don't necessarily care about forking over some money for ITC time, yes probably less would be better, but if I could get it down to less, but also have that ITC time to be accompanied by OTC hook ups for free I think I would be OK with that. If that is even a possibility I suppose. I imagine she would have to like me somewhat to consider that too.

I know it doesn't mean anything but she gave me her number.. of course I know that this could just equal (come see me at the club on a slow day!) And her FB again I know it doesn't mean much probably I would guess.

So a scenario where ITC is direct payment for SC dances and OTC is free hook ups and indirect payment by means of paying for any date/hanging out activities and fun and perhaps an occasional gift necklace, bracelet.

@Papi_Chulo. Thanks for the reply and yeah I see a lot of what your points are. Maybe I should just stop dropping a bunch of money and see if I could get her to hook up, and if not, and she's not interested then OK, whatever. Move on. And if she is interested pursue it for hook ups and mutual fun times

In the last 3 years I've probably gotten over 30 stripper ph #s and usually it's them given it to me - yet women in the real world do not this (at least volunteer their # w/o me asking for it).

In the “real world”; women often fall in-love with a guy after having sex w/ him and the guy often doesn't give a shit – in “SC bizarro world”; it's often the PL that falls in-love with a stripper after having sex w/ her and she is the one that doesn't give a shit.

@Papi_Chulo so enjoy it for what it is and if she wants to fuck then OK if not then whatever. What about a scenario like OTC free sex but not really because due to that OTC free sex I will return to the club to spend a bunch of money kind of like an indirect exchange. I am saying this in terms of an agreement of sorts.

So a scenario where ITC is direct payment for SC dances and OTC is free hook ups and indirect payment by means of paying for any date/hanging out activities and fun and perhaps an occasional gift necklace, bracelet.....

Haha...he thinks he's going to get free stuff.

You never want free stuff, it cost more than the stuff that you know what you're paying.

Do yourself the favor of hanging out with multiple strippers. Then you'll see what the stripprtbculture is really like.

BTW – you def need to be careful as a green newb if you do decide to dance with the devil.

It is part and parcel of a “stripper relationship” for them to have one financial emergency after another – it may start w/ something as small as “can you help me w/ my cell ph bill this month or else it's gonna get cutoff and I really need my cell ph b/c …” - and graduating to “I'm going to get kicked out of my place b/c I'm late on the rent and I need $900 by Wednesday”.

Some of these “emergencies” are real but still you don't want to deal with that shit – but the sad part is often times it's made up “emergencies” and they want $$$ for something else (shopping spree; tattoos for her BF; buying her BF an expensive gift; etc).

If you plan on messing with strippers – I recommend you participate on this board for a while so your virgin eyes can be opened.

The money your spending has set you up for her to expect that level of income on a regular weekly basis from you and possible a much higher priice for otc. Hard to cut back and get what you want from her now unless you have the cash. Any beautiful dance i have liked to see as a regular i always worked my way up. Buy her a couple of drinks and try to have a conversation with them between sets, if she can,t communicate she will not be a good regular for me. If she is good, tip her at the bar $10/20 ask her for her schedule, maybe a phone number, hang around for another set, another drink and a tip at bar. I never do dances first couple of times with the ones I like, I give them a little mystery. I keep most visits to a sc at $250 per night and once I get a regular she gets most between dances, tips and drinks. I never give in at a club with the ones I like, because I have been able to get free OTC from them all the time. If I need something I go to a different club and find an able body. If they ask for more money I tell them I have a life also and move on to someone else who likes my money once or twice a week when they are a regular.

For $900 you could fly any where in the country such as Michigan or Georgia and find the action that you desire for half the cost. You are spending too much. That whole through the pants action that you are getting comes standard in the 2 for 20 dances at the Harem in Ohio. If I were you, I'd take my chances and try kissing her. If she rejects you then you can start fresh with a better game plan. If she accepts then atleast you'll get your money's worth.

I would be very careful trying to think if u keep paying her ITC that you will get OTC "date" or "sex" for FREE. I have had this experience even though I wasn't paying near as much ITC as you are. I went out to dinner one time and since she has had every excuse she can come up with as to why she had to cancel OTC plans.....even though I was still going to see her ITC every week. It took me longer than I wish it had to finally stick to my ground and say no more coming to see her ITC until we get together OTC.

Papi
Excellent advice for this young man. You've said it all. I can't add a thing !

This might be the single most informative discussion I've ever seen here. I also agree it's refreshing having a newbie come asking questions.

The only thing I can add, or actually reiterate: For the love of all that is good and decent in the universe, please do NOT go to the clubs looking for love. Clubs are about fantasy, one that will break your bank account and crush your soul if you take it seriously.

Joe, welcome. I'm late to the party but I'll add my two cents. With San Jose Guy on sabbatical, the site is low on its word count and needs my help.

I spend a few thousand on strippers most months, so the cash you spend doesn't sound unreasonable to me if you have it to spend. And I used to spend that cash to get lame VIP visits like you are getting now. I did it for years. So no judgement here. But you can do a thousand times better for what you are spending, even if you don't travel to a better location.

First thing is your attitude. You are treating this girl like a non-stripper, which we call civilians. Huge mistake. She's a saleswoman at work, and like everyone in sales her obsession is to close the deal. She wants your money. You are not her boyfriend, nor her savior, her suitor, or anything romantic. You are her customer. Like any customer dealing with a salesperson, you must negotiate the best deal you can, always being ready to walk if you don't get what you need or want, and always ready to go to a competing salesperson to get a better deal if this one can't deliver. She will keep giving you the minimum that she has to so that the business relationship continues.

When this is done right, it can lead to the most amazing sexual fantasy you can possibly imagine. Read some of my stories in the past year if you want to know what I'm talking about it.
I cannot possibly overstate how good it can be. But for every guy who finds what I and others here have, a 100 other guys spend just as much or more money and end in frustration and anguish. What they want is so close but they can't ever figure out how to get it. They are victims of the best salespeople the world has ever known.

So how do you become the 1 in a 100.? Mostly, it's experience. It took me 20 years to get here, although I had a frigid wife to deal with in the mix so not everyone takes this long. There are no shortcuts really. It's trial and error cause each club, each dancer, each customer, and even each night in the same club can be a little different. You can't find one size fits all. But there are some principles that are generally available to help you. There are lots of idiotic false prophets out there, but tuscl can fundamentally improve your strip club experience if you follow the advice here. It certainly did for me.

I suggest searching through the posts on here if you haven't already. Search key terms like OTC, newbie, and DS. Also study club reviews for where you live, and can travel. Choosing the right club is absolutely critical.

As for your particular situation, it's likely that you should break ties with this dancer. You've started out the relationship as her automatic dispensing atm. That's not necessarily a bad thing IF what you are getting is worth east you spend. But you are light years away from that point. You are paying enough for full girlfriend sexual adventures, several of them. Plus you are emotionally involved. That happens to us all whether we admit it or not, but you must constantly fight the urge to be in love. It's a business. It's a fantasy. It can be awesome but it can't be a real love relationship that leads to whatever you envision as long term commitment. The 99 out of a 100 don't get this. They keep spending to get love and sex, finding neither.

But if you must stick with her, which you probably will despite our advice, then man up and get what you are paying for. If you order and pay for a Big Mac meal at McDonald's, and they give you a kids meal cheeseburger, what do you do? What if the same thing happens over and over, what do you do? I hope you nicely and respectfully insist upon what you are paying for, and at least threaten to start eating at the Burger King next door. Your situation is no different.

Put this in your own words, but here's what I would say when she asks for a VIP next time. "You are beautiful, and I have enjoyed our times together. You can tell that I've got plenty of money and I'd love to keep spending that money on you. But I'm tired of spending it in the club. The management takes a bunch of your money, and they have cameras and rules that make me feel watched and uncomfortable. What I'd like to do is take you out on a date outside the club. I'd like to take you to dinner at a very nice restaurant, my treat, and then go back to a nice hotel room to have some fun (I'd say sex, but you probably won't want to, at least at first, your call). I will be the same respectful and generous guy with you that I am in the club, and you will make a bunch of money that you don't have to share with the club. Would you be interested in letting me spoil you like that and keep spending all of this money on you."

Please please please don't be afraid to be clear and express about what you want and are paying for. This is the biggest hurdle to overcome, and took me a long time. But nobody told me this beforehand either. You cannot treat her like a civilian. You don't ask a regular girl for sex the first time you meet her, but strippers are not regular girls. Be nice, be respectful, and don't be rude, but let her know that you want to fuck her and you're willing to pay her to do it. Otherwise she needs to know that your money will go to a better salesperson. This will be hard for you to do. But it's the only thing that will work in your situation.

It is possible to get sex with a stripper without asking her for sex. I am in just such a stripper relationship right now where I sensed correctly that the above approach wasn't the way to go. But that's because she was a brand new baby stripper, just born. With your dancer, and the vast majority of strippers, you must speak up. They absolutely will not be shocked or offended. I guarantee it. She knows you want sex, but she's just taking advantage of the fact that you are too timid to ask for it. Leave timid Joe and home, and try it this way instead.

She will say one of three things when you ask. She may say yes, or something very encouraging. If so work out the details and do it. Then post the story. We want to hear about the sex.

My guess given your history is that she will try to drain you of some more money in the club. She would give you the impression that she might have a date with you soon, but not yet, let's go to the VIP. She needs to know you better first. I had one girl "agree" to OTC but say she would only give me her cell no to set it up in the VIP. She might also suggest that your mileage will get better in the VIP if you keep going, but she will be vague about it. It's all an act. If this is her reaction, run and don't look back. Seriously get out. You probably won't listen to me if this happens, but you've been warned. It can take a few visits to get a girl to agree to OTC sex, but you've already had those visits and more. If she plays, you have already made more than enough of an investment in her to get her to agree.

Or she may say no. If so thank her for her honesty, and move on. Actually no matter what she says, you need other dancers in your life. Competition is the only thing that keeps salespeople from ripping us off worse than they already do. Use competition to your advantage. There aren't a lot of guys spending the money you do, you are a valuable commodity, and the dancers need to see that you know that. Plus strip clubs and monogamy never never ever work. Never. In a strip club everybody can play with everybody if they have the cash. You can have a regular dancer, but she can never be your only dancer. And you will never be her only customer. Get used to this or don't go to strip clubs. The 1 in a 100 get this and put it into practice. The rest are stuck in monogamy and obsessed with jealousy.

This should not be your goal, but if she says no date and you walk, don't be surprised if she comes back to your side regularly to look for more money. If she does, and if you still want her, just repeat what you said and be firm. You will keep paying her but only for sex OTC. If they need money badly enough, they will sometimes give in when they learn that their usual flirting is not going to work. This just happened to me last night -- I fucked a dancer who said no to my requests for OTC for weeks. Finally she saw that there was only one way to get my money, and I was a big potential spender, so she said yes. But this may not happen. Some dancers won't fuck customers, even for the money you are spending, and if that's her then so bet it. there are lots of others that will accept your money.

As for kissing, that's the single hardest thing to get from a stripper. Seriously. I know many (including last night's) who will let me fuck them in the mouth and swallow my cum, but they won't kiss me. They see kissing as the most intimate act that they save for only romantic relationships. You can eventually get them to kiss you with practice, but you need to focus first on getting sex. I am serious, and right. Focus first on sex, and then move up to kissing. I fucked many strippers before I finally started kissing them.

Ok that's enough words to make up for SJG's absence, for tonight at least. Post again and let us know how it goes. Don't be afraid to tell us that you fucked up if you do, we aren't judgmental. Well, even if we make jokes about it, we must be humble cause we all made the same mistakes. if you end up fucking her let us old guys live vicariously through you and tell us the story. Hell you're probably young enough to fuck a dancer 2-3 times in one night. Have fun.






M

Oh yea, DICKDICKDICK PUSSYPUSSYPUSSY

Leave all politically correct speech at the door. We say it like it is.

@JohnSmith69 Wow great reply, great points, thanks for taking the time for the insightful and informative reply. I see what you mean and to that point I am probably spending more than many since this is a mid-range club byob. I am 28 single, disposable income, and willing to spend it ITC as heard. She is 20 which to me, just seems young to be doing the SC thing, but I know I may be way off base here, I know it is just my mind set, I realize that is probably not unusual at all to be a 20 yr old hot ass stripper.

Maybe I am too nice/naive maybe I am in over my head, maybe I think spending money on her like that just contributes to her lifestyle which she may regret..It sounds ridiculous perhaps, since it is her choice and (I now may be venturing in to a category of ethics or morals) but that is how I feel,

I could be completely off base here, and only saying this because I have an emotional attachment which was in and of itself created only ITC not in civilian dating and need to realize this is quite different.. I just don't know, I do know how it felt good for those dances and the possibility of more escalation

Joe, you feel like lots of nice guys feel at times with strippers, me included. You feel like this beautiful young thing has made a tragic mistake by choosing this lifestyle, but you are this white knight who is going to come riding in on your white horse, sweep her off her feet and carry her out of the club to some romantic ideal where she is forever going to be grateful to you as her savior.

That happens exactly never. She has chosen this job for reason, almost certainly because she makes far more money than she could any other way. She doesn't want to be saved, but she will be glad to take your money for as long as you want to fool yourself into believing you are that white knight.

But if the ethics of this situation continue to bother you, if you continue to feel like what you are doing is immoral, if you feel like you are taking advantage of her if you follow the advice we are giving you, then strip clubbing probably isn't for you. You'll be miserable doing something like this if that mindset remains the same. But your feelings are pretty normal, and rwe all have them sometimes, or at least we used to. And if SJG weren't on vacation, he would tell you to just romance her and never ever ask for sex. But he lives in his mom's basement and has never met a girl, so if he shows you need to know he's a nice kind of crazy.

By the way, my dancer is 19 and I'm 50 plus. So a 20 year old for you is nothing. Stripping is a profession for mostly young girls for lots of obvious reasons.

I “think” the crux of the problem; as has been mentioned in a few of the above posts; is the OP (Joe) trying to deal w/ this dancer as if she was a civvie (classic square peg in round hole dilemma).

There have been lots of posts above about how he should be getting more sex for his $$$ - but it seems as if the OP’s main motivation is not just getting sex but that he wants to date the dancer in a non P4P romantic sense – which IMHO is a bigger problem/issue than him not getting adequate sex for his $$$.

The OP (Joe) needs to realize one deals w/ strippers differently than w/ civvies (just as strippers deal differently w/ custies compared to other men in her life) – you would not hire a mechanic to fix the plumbing in your house; you don’t hire a dancer (by spending $$$ on her) to be your girlfriend – does not work.

@Papi_Chulo I see what you are talking about on this point. I myself may not even be grasping it because perhaps I want IT to BE something that it is NOT.

I am not experienced in the SC field, as you can tell,..I have had regular GF's and even had some of those GF's for a kind of long relationship, but that was regular dating and hook ups, and I guess that doesn't work in this situation. IT IS DIFFERENT and, I guess I might reluctantly be starting to get that point, but still might make mistakes even with that point in mind.

What about this, let's say I AM DOWN for OTC hook ups with some kind of agreement where I also spend $$ on her ITC and $ for various "dating" activities. I guess the point is that kind of "dating" will NOT turn in to at some point something like..Free OTC sex (like friends with benefits) or even regular bf/gf relationship.

A bf/gf relationship will probably NOT develop at any point unless I stop spending that amount.. and try to pursue her anyway, at which point obviously she might NOT be down and REJECT it.
Actually she might even reject OTC even with $ involved I suppose I don't know

JohnSmith on point!

Joe, the only thing I will add is that you will realize on your own that this is going nowhere. Advice is good, but you will come to your senses by experiencing it.

I could not fathom the thought of not seeing my CF every week. Recently, I spent $800 on her. Big mistake. She now expects this kind of spending from me. It's hard for men to say no to a beautiful woman:-) I am OK spending $200 a week, but not $800. I am kind of glad this happened though, it has made me realize that she is out to suck me dry and I'm talking about money because she doesn't do extras. Now, it does not matter if I don't see her weekly and I don't text her anymore. Sure, I'm a little sad, but at the end of the day we are nothing more than walking ATMs to them so why give a fuck.

Joe,

Listen to Papi. It does not get clearer than this:

"you don’t hire a dancer (by spending $$$ on her) to be your girlfriend – does not work"

You being a young guy near her age may give you a chance that she may want to hang w/ you OTC; but IMO that is just a “chance” with a very low probability – even then; IMO you are still trying to fit a square peg in a round hole – as most on this board will tell you; you don’t want a stripper for a GF with all the drama that comes with it.

If you are a responsible guy with a good job; then a stripper GF will probably not fit who you are – not many white-collar guys w/ good jobs have strippers for GFs – plus would you want your GF stripping (and doing more) with other guys – most guys don’t – so most guys either don’t date them in a romantic sense and a few try to “save them” out of stripping and that is usually a fiasco (you break it you own it kinda thing).

You have to be honest with yourself and figure out what you want and if you are thinking w/ your big head or your little head – do you truly care about this girl or are you just hard-up for her – most guys are usually more in-lust than in-love even if they don’t realize it – so what do you really want w.r.t this girl – a long time GF or a fling – if it’s the former; a stripper does not make a good GF; if it’s the latter then be honest w/ yourself and go about it the right way and get what you really want/looking-for.

Dealing w/ strippers is about $$$ - strippers don’t do anything for free – even if they see custies OTC they either expect to get paid; or are just doing it b/c they want to keep the custy’s business but they really rather not want to see the custy OTC – they do it b/c they have to; not b/c they want to; thus why they often flake out so much – so do you want a chick seeing you OTC out of obligation or b/c it’s business?

As others have said – most of us only learn thru our own experiences and making our own mistakes – no matter what we say here it won’t sink-in/make-sense until you have done it for yourself – kinda like learning to ride a bike; you will only learn by doing it and not reading about how to do it – you have the advantage of having learned about TUSCL early on in your SCing; which means you have a chance of learning about your mistakes a bit sooner than most of us instead of keeping on doing the same mistakes till we finally got it; but still you will not really know what we are saying until you do it for yourself – the difference is you’ll probably come to your senses a bit sooner than most of us that didn’t have TUSCL once you see what we are talking about come to fruition.

In keeping with my “SCs are bizarro world” analogy – in the “real world” one often gives folks the benefit of the doubt and take them at their word (usually) – in “SC bizarro world” one is better served not taking anything at face value until proven o/w (seems like not a nice thing to do or think but it is “bizarro world”).

I fear this will end badly cause I think he, like most of us, has to learn by experience.

^ One learns to ride a bike by getting on and falling off a few times - but hopefully the injuries are not too bad.

I fear that this guy is being taking for a ride big time with a dancer who knows how to sucker in and trick new customers. Honestly he needs to cut ties as the dancer is getting so much money from him and giving him NOTHING in return as what he gets is often give for a normal lapdance that lasts 2-3 songs for $20 or 40 depending on where you are.

For a drink at the bar your able to touch a dancer's legs but for VIP you best be getting sex, a hj or a bj cause a normal lap dance is what "her grabbing/rubbing my d*** outside of pants only. And me rubbing her p**** under her clothes, so direct hand to p**** contact. Also a lot of hand holding, squeezing her body, tits in face, kisses to her neck, back but not lips." amounts to.

When I pay the dancer $60 or 80 I best be getting something good for my cash or its a ended early dance where I will not pay her the full amount.

Having a very young dancer as you said and you paying that amount of money clears up a lot. She has not been dancing long enough to need OTC from anyone and probably will not need to kiss anyone let alone you. A good test I have used many times with a lap dance is to make sure my hands are nice and soft, and give her a nice back/shoulder rub and sneak up close to her neck and try a kiss. A good pair of hand massaging a dancer has opened many a doors for me. If your a guy who goes to a sc dressing nicely with a nice shirt, clean shaven, no body odor, and wear a nice cologne you will attract dancers. As a mentioned in my earlier post, being a mystery man and not dancing the first few times sets things up for a lot more action. That being said it works with the dancers over 27/28 who have seen every men have tried on them, and when they find a nice guy, they like to dream also about really nice sex too.

Dress nice, wear cologne, don't buy dances, soft hands, sneak a kiss. That's quite a System you've got going on there Zjz. And just think, all this time I thought dancers just wanted my money. I'm gonna go buy a new shirt, cologne, and lotion in the morning.

I dunno man, you shouldn't ask questions because by asking these questions you have taken THE BLUE PILL already.

You just placed her above you by asking these questions.

Do not ask questions and they will respect you for it.