Vs. 6-0 in Finals for Jordan!!! The big difference is that LeBron takes a lot of shoots but doesn't do nearly enough to elevate the performance of his teammates
So hard to make a comparison based solely on rings because of all the circumstance involved. I always ask people to make a list of the ten greatest players of all time.... MJ, LBJ would surely be on that list including Kareem, Wilt, Oscar, Bird?, Russell....etc. Now, on a court somewhere in basketball fantasy land if you were picking a team out of those 10 guys (in their prime) and you had the first pick........ who would you pick?
The Cavs are easily the worst team to ever make the finals. Without LeBron they don't even make the playoffs! This guy is an amazing player! If he were on 3/4 of the teams in the NBA, they'd win the championship but the Cavs aren't one of them.
That being said, if I'm making an all time team, I still pick Jordan first. Jordan was better than his stats, and his stats are better than LeBron's even though it's unfair to compare eras. I think I pick LeBron second though.
LeBron averaged 36 points, 13 rebounds, and 9 assists during this Finals. You can't blame him for this loss, he had no help, I think he should have been Finals MVP.
People are always gonna bring up the 2-4 with LeBron. Let's say his team lost his conference finals this year, and his finals record was still 2-3, would that be better? No.
That being said MJ is the best player of the time, but I think this year LeBron has entered the top 10.
To say LeBron shoots too much is ridiculous. He had to in this playoff run because he lost the teams other two stars in Erving and Love.And don't forget about Anderson Varejao who he lost early in the season. The second best player on the floor for the Cavs was Timofey Mozgov. And while he's a nice player he should be a piece not the second option.
One of the things LeBron does as well as anyone in history in his career is get his teammates involved. Jordan is still the best, but no one player no matter how good including Jordan wins this series with the pieces LeBron had around him.
Ok.... Stop giving Lebron excuses for the loss. All teams deal with injuries. All teams deal with players (other than LeBron) running into cold shooting and what not.
It is still a team sport! Give golden state some credit. Give Curry some credit.
This is why I hate the NBA.... all you hear about is Lebron.... Lebron... Lebron.
he is a great player and if you put him and mj in the prime.... I might take Lebron over MJ. But I am so sick of the hype the media puts around him. Let his game speak for itself and that is it. I mean the first article today on MSN was giving Lebron exuses for losing. What do you think that makes his teammates feel like..... SHIT is what it does. It basicly says that Lebron is the only basketball player on that team. Which is debateable but yet there was play by others that help them win the two games they did win.
Also how does it make the Warriors and their team look..... the media when the series was 2-1 infavor of the warriors started to say LeBron will take it over and the warriors are done now. Then when the series was tied 2-2 they even handed the victory to the Cavs..... WHAT BULL SHIT by the media.
Like I stated I am sick of hearing Lebron this and Lebron that and poor Lebron. FUCK THAT. He is a pro athlete along with the others on his team. don't give these fuckers excuses for not winning. Also I might have a little more empathy for Lebron.... but he left Cleveland and won a few titles on a "all star" team. It wasn't a team like Jordan had who was made through draft choices and developing players. The heat did the NY Yankees thing and went out and bought championships. Which if that is the rules....good for them. +But to say poor Lebron... FUCK THAT.
look at mikes supporting cast for all those titles and lebrons for this go around.
if lebron had all his starters i think he would have won the finals. think about it, take iggy and the othet half of the spash brothers away from curry and lets see how golden state would have done in the playoffs.
i think its complete bullshit that lebron didnt get the finals mvp but the last loser to get that honkr was jerry west.
lebron will be back in the finals next year regardless if love is still there or not, the only real threat in the east is atlanta.
btw i agree mike is better, cavs fan for life lebron or no lebron
Lebron's career stats will be amazing because he skipped college and will have had three more years in the NBA due to it. Jordan stayed in college 3 years and took off 2 years in the middle of his 6-ring run! Lebron is a beast and destined to be in the top 20 of all time. However, Lebron is hatable because he is so often focused on himself and his legacy (just like a certain current President). One shouldn't be thinking about one's legacy while one is BUILDING one's legacy.
Think about it -- lots of players have amassed amazing stats and never won anything. That doesn't make them MVP or "best of all time." In fact, consider the list of HOFs denied a ring AT ALL during the Jordan era: Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Barkley, Reggie Miller, Dominique Wilkins, Tim Hardaway and Shawn Kemp, just to name a few.
Lebron enjoys competing in a much softer league today. Just watch any one of several 30 for 30 ESPN specials from the 80's or 90's. Let's see Lebron attack the rim when any number of enforcers are waiting in the lane to take off his head (Ewing, Mason, Oakley, Malone, Laimbeer, etc.). Every night. No ejection. No flagrant 1. Just a "good hard playoff foul." Players back then were APPLAUDED on air for "protecting the rim" in this manner.
Injuries? I call bullshit. Golden State should have won in 5. Actually, if we want to talk about injuries, I think a healthy Chicago Bulls team beats the Cavs in the playoffs THIS YEAR.
Bottom line, Lebron's offensive efficiency is only above average. Too many turnovers and missed shots. His defensive prowess is at best inconsistent and, at times, suspect. Destined to be one of the greatest -- ok. Greatest of all time? Have a seat. Michael Jordan, your table is (still) ready!! 6 for 6 > 2 for 6. And Michael didn't do it by taking a pay cut and surrounding himself with all-stars/future Hall-of-Famers.
Prediction: Tiger Woods will win another Major before Lebron wins another Championship. OK -- That was going too far. LOL Seriously, neither will win again. BOOM, That just happened!
Yes injures are part of the game, everything went Golden State's way this year. They didn't have any major injuries, they didn't have to play the Clippers or Spurs in the playoffs this year, they played a Cleveland team that was missing two all stars, Memphis was banged up injury wise, so was New Orleans. Credit to the Warriors though, they had the best record in the regular season, and they finished it off with a championship.
@crsm27- I definitely would not take LeBron in his prime over MJ in his prime. MJ was a better scorer, defender, clutch player. I think they're equal as far as passing (MJ's passing ability was so underrated). LeBron is a better rebounder (he's 3 inches taller, so he should be).
When LeBron retires is when we should talk about where he ranks all time. It's incomplete right now.
Just to throw this in, I think the 3 point shot has made the game's offense more boring than it should be. It should be at least 25 ft or more from the basket.
As much as I dislike King James... losing to the GSW is not his fault. Cavs lots two role players to injury. Jordan would not have won 6 without Pippen. Both Paxson and Kerr made game winning shots along the way to get da Bulls to 6. I don't recall the Bulls dealing with any major injuries during the Jordan championship years.
My biggest beef with the whole King James thing is he just never has struck me as a warrior assassin like Jordan (or even,gasp, Kobe). Jordan had the "flu game" where he played in spite of his illness. James had the "cram game." That's not an apples-to-apples comparison, but what's the excuse for a pro-athlete with pro-trainers getting crams regardless of the AC working?
Also, let's omit this year's finals for a moment. James was 2 - 3 prior to this year. Note however, that James is only one shot away from being 1 - 4. MIA got luck one year to force a Game 7 (and then won the game 7). Jordan never needed game 7 in the finals.
Jordan was an aberration – has any other player in the lonnnnnng history of the NBA won multiple titles and *never* lost? I'm sure there have been some back in the day b/f I watched basketball – but greats of my generation such as Bird and Magic both lost finals and they both had STACKED teams with multiple hall-of-famers.
So it's unfair to compare anyone to Jordan and then say that particular anyone is not great b/c he did not accomplish what Jordan did – I don't think anyone has accomplished what Jordan did at last not in the modern era.
Also - Jordan did not win any championships w/o Pippen and probably more importantly w/o Phil Jackson whom is a hall-of-fame coach with 12 damn rings (or something like that) – LeBron has had avg coaches at best – plus the poor guy is in Cleveland for crying out loud :)
Look what happened to the Heat and Cavs w/o Lebron – they both went from the Finals to sub-500 teams not making the playoffs and being in the lottery.
Jordan was the best – but using him as a comparison for another player's greatness I think it's sorta misguided.
LJ is a great player, and smart too. But without a supporting cast of quality players it is near impossible to finish the season with a win (championship). I've never been an LJ fan and think the comparisons to earlier players are wasted time. Wait until he retires then make the comparisons.
And I cannot help but look at LJs Finals record. Six trips, only two titles and very nearly just one. A sweep in his first appearance, four trips in a row with Miami, the last one nearly a sweep. And a Finals record of what 11-21 or something like that. Not very impressive on the biggest stage the league has.
And while I know I am in the minority, for my money Larry Bird should get serious consideration as the greatest and I rarely hear his name in the discussion.
And again, I'm in the minority, but they could have just never played another season of NBA ball after what the Spurs did last year in the Finals. It just doesn't get more beautiful than that (relative to basketball).
As was pointed out, no player had won a championship or multiple championships without help. Jordan/Pippen, Magic/Kareem/Worthy, Bird/McHale/Parish, Shaq/Kobe, even Russell/Cousey. To discount the fact LeBron didn't have top shelf help and to say it's just an excuse is misleading.
Celtics went 8-0 from 59 to 66. Celtics won 10 title in 11 years from 59-69. Celtics dominated the 60's. The Jordan era Bulls dominated the 90's. The 93 and 96 Bulls would have been capable of beating the 94-95 Rockets had Jordan not been playing baseball. The 90 Bulls team took the bad boy's of Detroit to 7 games.
To be clear, this shouldn't imply that James isn't one of the best players... he is a great player, most players don't make 5 straight trips to the finals. But 2 of 6 (and very nearly 1 of 6) doesn't put you in the 60's Celtics or 90's Bulls debate.
Everyone is making the same mistake. We are not talking boxing, MMA, tennis, golf, etc. Sports were it is one person against other individuals. A team sport can't be judged the same. Yes, the Celtic TEAMS were great as were the Bulls TEAMS, and many others.
There have been great individual players that have been heroic in team sports, but without the surrounding cast, they have never won it all.
On the flip side, there are an abundance of mediocre players, at best, that have won it all on TEAMS.
Getting back to my original premise (off the subject of "teams" and "eras", supporting casts (injuries) and rule changes regarding scoring and fouls.......... line up your list of the 10 best players on a court in fantasy land; who would you pick first? Looking at who would have the biggest impact on a team I would tend towards a guy who could handle the ball (pass), shoot well, play defense and had good size for rebounding. Leads me towards Oscar Robertson, Magic or LeBron.
Lebron was still 2-2 (could've been 1-3) with the heat and his so called "help". Honestly he wouldn't have even made the finals 6 times if he ever played in the west.
Yesterday I heard Dan LeBetard suggest LeBron might want the Cavs to get Dwayne Wade.
Why the hell would they do that? LeBron was only 2-2 with Wade and that was a team that had Chris Bosh. Wade is old and has bad knees. Seems like a stupid idea
If LeBron had a coach like Phil Jackson or Greg Paupovich; he most likely would have won more titles – rarely has LeBron's teams been more talented (player or coach-wise) than his opponents in the finals.
Thank God this isn't about Barry Bonds being the best. Punk ass cheater and before that he fucked up three years in a row in the playoffs with Pittsburgh
37 comments
That being said, if I'm making an all time team, I still pick Jordan first. Jordan was better than his stats, and his stats are better than LeBron's even though it's unfair to compare eras. I think I pick LeBron second though.
People are always gonna bring up the 2-4 with LeBron. Let's say his team lost his conference finals this year, and his finals record was still 2-3, would that be better? No.
That being said MJ is the best player of the time, but I think this year LeBron has entered the top 10.
One of the things LeBron does as well as anyone in history in his career is get his teammates involved. Jordan is still the best, but no one player no matter how good including Jordan wins this series with the pieces LeBron had around him.
It is still a team sport! Give golden state some credit. Give Curry some credit.
This is why I hate the NBA.... all you hear about is Lebron.... Lebron... Lebron.
he is a great player and if you put him and mj in the prime.... I might take Lebron over MJ. But I am so sick of the hype the media puts around him. Let his game speak for itself and that is it. I mean the first article today on MSN was giving Lebron exuses for losing. What do you think that makes his teammates feel like..... SHIT is what it does. It basicly says that Lebron is the only basketball player on that team. Which is debateable but yet there was play by others that help them win the two games they did win.
Also how does it make the Warriors and their team look..... the media when the series was 2-1 infavor of the warriors started to say LeBron will take it over and the warriors are done now. Then when the series was tied 2-2 they even handed the victory to the Cavs..... WHAT BULL SHIT by the media.
Like I stated I am sick of hearing Lebron this and Lebron that and poor Lebron. FUCK THAT. He is a pro athlete along with the others on his team. don't give these fuckers excuses for not winning. Also I might have a little more empathy for Lebron.... but he left Cleveland and won a few titles on a "all star" team. It wasn't a team like Jordan had who was made through draft choices and developing players. The heat did the NY Yankees thing and went out and bought championships. Which if that is the rules....good for them. +But to say poor Lebron... FUCK THAT.
if lebron had all his starters i think he would have won the finals. think about it, take iggy and the othet half of the spash brothers away from curry and lets see how golden state would have done in the playoffs.
i think its complete bullshit that lebron didnt get the finals mvp but the last loser to get that honkr was jerry west.
lebron will be back in the finals next year regardless if love is still there or not, the only real threat in the east is atlanta.
btw i agree mike is better, cavs fan for life lebron or no lebron
Think about it -- lots of players have amassed amazing stats and never won anything. That doesn't make them MVP or "best of all time." In fact, consider the list of HOFs denied a ring AT ALL during the Jordan era: Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Barkley, Reggie Miller, Dominique Wilkins, Tim Hardaway and Shawn Kemp, just to name a few.
Lebron enjoys competing in a much softer league today. Just watch any one of several 30 for 30 ESPN specials from the 80's or 90's. Let's see Lebron attack the rim when any number of enforcers are waiting in the lane to take off his head (Ewing, Mason, Oakley, Malone, Laimbeer, etc.). Every night. No ejection. No flagrant 1. Just a "good hard playoff foul." Players back then were APPLAUDED on air for "protecting the rim" in this manner.
Injuries? I call bullshit. Golden State should have won in 5. Actually, if we want to talk about injuries, I think a healthy Chicago Bulls team beats the Cavs in the playoffs THIS YEAR.
Bottom line, Lebron's offensive efficiency is only above average. Too many turnovers and missed shots. His defensive prowess is at best inconsistent and, at times, suspect. Destined to be one of the greatest -- ok. Greatest of all time? Have a seat. Michael Jordan, your table is (still) ready!! 6 for 6 > 2 for 6. And Michael didn't do it by taking a pay cut and surrounding himself with all-stars/future Hall-of-Famers.
Prediction: Tiger Woods will win another Major before Lebron wins another Championship. OK -- That was going too far. LOL Seriously, neither will win again. BOOM, That just happened!
@crsm27- I definitely would not take LeBron in his prime over MJ in his prime. MJ was a better scorer, defender, clutch player. I think they're equal as far as passing (MJ's passing ability was so underrated). LeBron is a better rebounder (he's 3 inches taller, so he should be).
When LeBron retires is when we should talk about where he ranks all time. It's incomplete right now.
LeBron is top 10 for sure
My biggest beef with the whole King James thing is he just never has struck me as a warrior assassin like Jordan (or even,gasp, Kobe). Jordan had the "flu game" where he played in spite of his illness. James had the "cram game." That's not an apples-to-apples comparison, but what's the excuse for a pro-athlete with pro-trainers getting crams regardless of the AC working?
Also, let's omit this year's finals for a moment. James was 2 - 3 prior to this year. Note however, that James is only one shot away from being 1 - 4. MIA got luck one year to force a Game 7 (and then won the game 7). Jordan never needed game 7 in the finals.
So it's unfair to compare anyone to Jordan and then say that particular anyone is not great b/c he did not accomplish what Jordan did – I don't think anyone has accomplished what Jordan did at last not in the modern era.
Also - Jordan did not win any championships w/o Pippen and probably more importantly w/o Phil Jackson whom is a hall-of-fame coach with 12 damn rings (or something like that) – LeBron has had avg coaches at best – plus the poor guy is in Cleveland for crying out loud :)
Look what happened to the Heat and Cavs w/o Lebron – they both went from the Finals to sub-500 teams not making the playoffs and being in the lottery.
Jordan was the best – but using him as a comparison for another player's greatness I think it's sorta misguided.
And I cannot help but look at LJs Finals record. Six trips, only two titles and very nearly just one. A sweep in his first appearance, four trips in a row with Miami, the last one nearly a sweep. And a Finals record of what 11-21 or something like that. Not very impressive on the biggest stage the league has.
And while I know I am in the minority, for my money Larry Bird should get serious consideration as the greatest and I rarely hear his name in the discussion.
And again, I'm in the minority, but they could have just never played another season of NBA ball after what the Spurs did last year in the Finals. It just doesn't get more beautiful than that (relative to basketball).
To be clear, this shouldn't imply that James isn't one of the best players... he is a great player, most players don't make 5 straight trips to the finals. But 2 of 6 (and very nearly 1 of 6) doesn't put you in the 60's Celtics or 90's Bulls debate.
There have been great individual players that have been heroic in team sports, but without the surrounding cast, they have never won it all.
On the flip side, there are an abundance of mediocre players, at best, that have won it all on TEAMS.
Good point!
Sort of like starting a football team. Get a great offensive and defensive line, then plug in decent "skill" players.
Michael, Magic, Larry . . . wide distance . . . then, Kobe, Kareem, Lebron, Oscar, Bill Russell
Not even listing the top point producer of all time?
Why the hell would they do that? LeBron was only 2-2 with Wade and that was a team that had Chris Bosh. Wade is old and has bad knees. Seems like a stupid idea
This is why sports is awesome and enduring -- we get to have these discussions!!
NO SIR – we *will* have further discussion
Of course we will. :)