Strip Club Systems
san_jose_guy
money was invented for handing to women, but buying dances is a chump's game
Recently we've been treated to an Article from Shailynn, purporting to be a Logical System, but it seems more to be tongue in cheek as it is a counter to Rick Dugan's System. Even his System was not considered a system per say, until other people named it as such. Lots of people seem to want to make fun of it too.
Shailynn's Logical System
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…
Shailynn's related thread:
www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=33855
Rick Dugan's System
www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=28041
Rockstar's Method
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…
Rechthaberei's Method
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…
I for one don't see any cause for making fun of anyone. I think strip clubs are dicey places to walk into, and I think you do need to learn some about how to handle yourself. Dugan's System does give you this. His System is based on the idea of declining most all of the things most people go to strip clubs for, and instead setting up OTC's. Shailynn's Logical System does not address any of this.
So I think the first issue is just what do you do about the dance offers. If you walk in, then right away dancers are going to start offering you dances. They will do it before your eyes have even adjusted to the indoor dark.
Sometimes they will do it verbally. Other times they will do it by package grabs. I read here that in Detroit that is standard. I read about how on Bourbon St. in NOLA, they are coming out beyond the front door to make package grabs.
On blackstripclubs.net I read about many places where they will just help themselves to sitting on your lap, and then start licking your neck and nibbling on your ear. TUSCL members have affirmed this.
So what do you do?
I've read posts where people are angered by all of this. Certainly I think it is wrong to get angry. The women make their money that way, and they are there to make money, so if you go there you just have to accept it. I am never angered or offended by their dance offers.
But do you accept? My own view is that it is better not to accept, but to politely decline and try to defer. On the one hand you don't want to appear cheap or disrespectful. But on the other hand, you don't want to come across as a chump either. My view has long been that accepting such an offer from a dancer who you do not have any rapport established with is a chump's game and it also makes you look like a chump.
If what you want is just to pass out money, then just go ahead and do that. People at the Sunnyvale Brass rail will give girl's tips even though they didn't sit at the stage. One girl explained that it was "Because they think I'm cute." You can just hand them money, and if they ask what it is for, tell them something like that.
The one I think is actually displaying the most common sense in this is Jestrite50. He has posted about just handing dancers a benny, and for no reason except to make her feel good. I've not done this, but I do like the idea of it.
But if a dancer offers me a dance, as they always do, then accepting that tells her two things, first that it is very easy for a pretty girl to get money out of me and that suggests that I lack self confidence. Second, it tells her that I am happy to spend time in a booth with a girl performing some rather inane sorts of services upon me. This second view is definitely false, and I would hope that the first one is too. So I'm going to decline and try to defer. If I'm to give her any money, it will just be a feel good tip, or because I'm hoping she will sit and talk with me.
Now I've read so many posts on TUSCL and so many review narratives on Yelp, and I see that my view is a minority one. But I still feel supported in that Rick Dugan also does not accept dance offers, saying, "That's not really my gig" and that the one I feel really knows how to work it, Jestrite50, gets physical with the girls right there where he is seated. To me, this approach is obviously the very best of all possibilities.
But as I read most people's accounts of strip club visits, it is always this issue, what to do with the dance offers, which comes up and always seems to cause problems. Most of the negative accounts are of situations which started when someone accepted a dance offer from a dancer they had never established any rapport with.
Now beyond this, I like to pick the dancer myself, instead of letting her pick me. They can be as forward as they want, and I always like that. But I'm still going to orchestrate it so that she can see that I am picking her. For as long as I know her, she will be playing back in her mind the narrative of our first meeting. And if I pick her, she could turn me down. That I am willing to take that risk shows her that I am not lacking in self confidence. And besides, different girls strike me different ways. It is not all looks.
I am happy to approach them when they are off stage. But if the girl's turn comes up, usually I will come up to the stage and start tipping and engaging with her. It is so easy for both of us that way. No big deal if it never goes any further too.
Shailynn does not address any of these issues. Dugan addresses all of them, but what he wants to come out of it, OTC with a minimum of ITC interaction and cost, is unusual.
I'm hoping that all the dynamics of strip club interactions can be explored, as I think these places could work much better than they often do.
SJG
Led Zeppelin, Royal Albert Hall 1970
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edPEBB6V…
Shailynn's Logical System
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…
Shailynn's related thread:
www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=33855
Rick Dugan's System
www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=28041
Rockstar's Method
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…
Rechthaberei's Method
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…
I for one don't see any cause for making fun of anyone. I think strip clubs are dicey places to walk into, and I think you do need to learn some about how to handle yourself. Dugan's System does give you this. His System is based on the idea of declining most all of the things most people go to strip clubs for, and instead setting up OTC's. Shailynn's Logical System does not address any of this.
So I think the first issue is just what do you do about the dance offers. If you walk in, then right away dancers are going to start offering you dances. They will do it before your eyes have even adjusted to the indoor dark.
Sometimes they will do it verbally. Other times they will do it by package grabs. I read here that in Detroit that is standard. I read about how on Bourbon St. in NOLA, they are coming out beyond the front door to make package grabs.
On blackstripclubs.net I read about many places where they will just help themselves to sitting on your lap, and then start licking your neck and nibbling on your ear. TUSCL members have affirmed this.
So what do you do?
I've read posts where people are angered by all of this. Certainly I think it is wrong to get angry. The women make their money that way, and they are there to make money, so if you go there you just have to accept it. I am never angered or offended by their dance offers.
But do you accept? My own view is that it is better not to accept, but to politely decline and try to defer. On the one hand you don't want to appear cheap or disrespectful. But on the other hand, you don't want to come across as a chump either. My view has long been that accepting such an offer from a dancer who you do not have any rapport established with is a chump's game and it also makes you look like a chump.
If what you want is just to pass out money, then just go ahead and do that. People at the Sunnyvale Brass rail will give girl's tips even though they didn't sit at the stage. One girl explained that it was "Because they think I'm cute." You can just hand them money, and if they ask what it is for, tell them something like that.
The one I think is actually displaying the most common sense in this is Jestrite50. He has posted about just handing dancers a benny, and for no reason except to make her feel good. I've not done this, but I do like the idea of it.
But if a dancer offers me a dance, as they always do, then accepting that tells her two things, first that it is very easy for a pretty girl to get money out of me and that suggests that I lack self confidence. Second, it tells her that I am happy to spend time in a booth with a girl performing some rather inane sorts of services upon me. This second view is definitely false, and I would hope that the first one is too. So I'm going to decline and try to defer. If I'm to give her any money, it will just be a feel good tip, or because I'm hoping she will sit and talk with me.
Now I've read so many posts on TUSCL and so many review narratives on Yelp, and I see that my view is a minority one. But I still feel supported in that Rick Dugan also does not accept dance offers, saying, "That's not really my gig" and that the one I feel really knows how to work it, Jestrite50, gets physical with the girls right there where he is seated. To me, this approach is obviously the very best of all possibilities.
But as I read most people's accounts of strip club visits, it is always this issue, what to do with the dance offers, which comes up and always seems to cause problems. Most of the negative accounts are of situations which started when someone accepted a dance offer from a dancer they had never established any rapport with.
Now beyond this, I like to pick the dancer myself, instead of letting her pick me. They can be as forward as they want, and I always like that. But I'm still going to orchestrate it so that she can see that I am picking her. For as long as I know her, she will be playing back in her mind the narrative of our first meeting. And if I pick her, she could turn me down. That I am willing to take that risk shows her that I am not lacking in self confidence. And besides, different girls strike me different ways. It is not all looks.
I am happy to approach them when they are off stage. But if the girl's turn comes up, usually I will come up to the stage and start tipping and engaging with her. It is so easy for both of us that way. No big deal if it never goes any further too.
Shailynn does not address any of these issues. Dugan addresses all of them, but what he wants to come out of it, OTC with a minimum of ITC interaction and cost, is unusual.
I'm hoping that all the dynamics of strip club interactions can be explored, as I think these places could work much better than they often do.
SJG
Led Zeppelin, Royal Albert Hall 1970
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edPEBB6V…
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28 comments
Boy meets girl
Boy likes girl
Boy wants to fuck girl
Boy makes advances
Boy caresses girl
Boy embraces girl
Boy dfk's girl
Boy gets girl excited (turned on)
Boy fucks girl
End of Story
There you have it in 10 easy steps. It works for me and I practice it almost daily !
Why do I get the feeling these "systems" will soon be offered (to the first 10 callers) on TV at 4am.... lol.
My system was to bring lots and lots of money.
Seemed to work pretty darn good.
And it saved me a ton on dry cleaning my white polyester suits... lol.
When you originally posted your System, you weren't calling it a System. It was people who wanted to mock you that named it that. In particular it was someone who says that all it amounts to is "paying a hooker for sex." I might also point out that this same individual is deeply committed to the establishment of a two tier society and to the destruction of our democracy. If he and his sort win, then the entire Second World War and its 50 million plus casualties will have been for naught.
Originally your "System" was just a description of the approach you typically use.
Now I've never seen you post about what your OTC sessions are like, and about how GFE they are. And likewise, do you do follow up sessions with the girls, without going back again to the strip club?
What is interesting about your System is not what you do, but what you don't do. Is there some reason you don't want to do dances, "Not really my gig." Is it just to contain costs? Is it because you are a more private person and don't really want to get into intimate acts with the girl in the SC environment?
Or maybe you see it the way I do, that the entire 'extras' paradigm is a chump's game. It is a way of running up the costs, of letting the house take a very deep cut and turning the girl into their money maker, while what you get is still very little? Doing it their way, the girl never really opens up to you.
Just having a girl cause me to ejaculate is not a big deal. It really isn't the way I want to interact with her. And then since now that they are also offering an 'extras' style of FS, I don't see that as being much better.
So while it isn't wrong for the girl to try and sell you dances, if you actually go along with it, then you are letting yourself be made into a chump. And of course this trashes you in the girl's eyes.
Now back when I first joined last Summer, I tried to explain this, and people just exploded. I came to see that many of this board's most vocal people are committed to 'extras' and that they never really have questioned it.
Lap dancing didn't start with booths, back rooms, and extras. It didn't start high cost either. It started with girls sitting on your lap, and usually for $1 per minute. Beyond that, it was just between you and she.
So for me, it has always been obvious that you want to get the girl off script as quickly as possible. Break out of the structure of dances and songs, of booths and backrooms, of house cuts, and of extras. Instead treat her like a civilian, while still being respectful of the fact that she is there because she expects to make money.
If she will open up to you, emotionally and physically, then sure, take her into the VIP Room, or to wherever. But that is completely different from the typical strip club encounter.
In this underground table dancing circuit which ran in some of San Jose's Mexican Bars, it was something like this. And at the most extreme FS strip clubs which I read about on blackstripclubs.net, it was definitely done this way. And then TUSCL members have affirmed that it is like this in lots of mixed race dives. And then Jestrite50 is someone who has mastered it.
Have you thought about getting physically friendly with dancers in the front room?
Or is your main concern just avoiding being made into a chump with the typical SC routine of letting her sell you dances?
I think this is important because our strip clubs could be much better than they are. Some types of laws are by their very nature impractical to enforce. And so we could have places like the TJ Hong Kong Bar, as opposed to the typical dry humping and extras shops, and that extras style of FS.
SJG
Gabriela Gun?íková & MERYLAND - Barracuda
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tlzrSkJ…
Gabriela Gun?íková - (Wo)Man In The Box (Alice In Chains)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88QvGIBM…
Burn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY4rBNfw…
Transposed up one whole step. Usually rock covers are not transposed.
Still of the Night
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAQfkLAK…
Highway to Hell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQibNBra…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEYHYfup…
Love Hurts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhv4f6Fj…
SJG
Thanks for the laughs man.
I always turn down the "wanna dance?"girls. They clearly don't want to provide a complete experience.
I personally prefer to have the girls come to me and "sell" themselves. There's a downside to the passive system on a busy night. But I want a girl walking up to me thinking "this guy is a maybe, and I need to win him over" rather than "easy sale, easy money". Especially since I'm not into hot girls who have zero personality.
www.tuscl.net/u.php?UID=207075
Discussion of Dugan's system on Shailynn's Logical System Article:
www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=33872
SJG
This was clearly tongue in cheek but also some common sense. Mine is not such a "system" as some common sense that I cannot believe people don't use. I can't tell you how many times I have heard the mistakes from guys in their reviews and complaints from strippers.
1. Take a shower - obviously a given but I can't tell you how many strippers complain of guys coming in all sweaty maybe after work or golfing, and aren't clean. It's like strippers are thought of as sex slaves and guys think their hygiene doesn't matter - well it does!
2. If I read 10 reviews, there's always at least one where some guy is whining about paying a ridiculous ATM fee. DUH!!!! bring the cash with you before you go to the club, no brainer but for some guys it is.
3. Have you ever seen a guy in awe in a strip club that has the look on his face that he's never seen a hot nude or semi-nude girl before? Don't be that guy, you're be taken advantage of by a savvy stripper quicker than you can adjust your underwear because of your boner.
4. Some strippers I enjoy talking to, like really enjoy, others that bore me with stories of their kids... well sometimes you have to act engaged just to be polite...do your best...
5. I know so many guys that have lost keys, wallets, phones in the club, come in with as little items as possible to minimize issues - that's just common sense. Also ever butt dial someone from a strip club? Totally not cool, I haven't done it but have had friends that have.
6. not even going there.
7. This seemed to strike some nerves especially with a slob like Dolfan. What guy wears flip flops to a strip club? Gay guys and Dolfan, that's who. Neither have any business in a strip club to begin with. Go to the gay bar instead, and Dolfan will pay your cover for you if you're gay.
8. I don't know about where the clubs you go to, but for me if I leave my car on the street outside the club (Dallas, Detroit, San Antonio to name a few) there's a damn good chance the car will be gone or a window will be bashed out when you return. I really don't have any choice but to valet and in some big cities, if the valet sees you park on the street, they're going to give you shit one way of another when you leave anyway. I always have a rental car thats insured to the max so I have my ass covered to begin with. If you're in Detroit you go ahead and park your shit on 8Mile Road and see what happens. Park behind Baby Dolls in Dallas and see if your shit is there when you get back. Park on the street at Christies in the Flats of Cleveland and see what happens. Hell your car will probably even got stolen inside the club parking lot that has security there.
9. If I have to explain this one then you certainly are retarded i.e. like Dolfan since he can't understand the irony on this.
I agree as I had said before that everything you say here is good common sense practice. Anyone going out to a club to be with beautiful women will want to do these things. At first I didn't realize you were just being facetious but when you told me last week then I understood you were just poking at the Rick Dugan System. I maybe take some of this too seriously but I believe there is a right way and a wrong way to treat women if your end game is to get them in bed with you. I have told everyone here what works for me and my friends that have tried it find it works for them too. I agree with you totally on the "wanna dance" offers. I don't accept any of those either. In fact I don't get dances from a girl until we have had ample time "making out" in the front room. I want to know how she responds to my moves before I waste money in the back on her. I want to caress her; rub her back; dfk her; play with her pussy; etc before we ever go to the back. If she doesn't join in the fun out front we ain't going to the back. I do this with every girl that I meet in the club and 99% love it and love it even more in the back. I think the guys here could have a lot more fun at the clubs if they slowed down a little and spent some time with these girls. That's pretty much all I'm trying to say.
I agree completely! To me this is just common sense, much more so than Shailynn's list. The one who knows how to club is Jestrite50, and it is because he knows how to treat women, and because he doesn't suspend that in P4P environments.
Now of course this would never work in the no touching clubs of Santa Clara County. But knowing how to talk with them does work. In San Francisco it should work, but most of those places are clip joints, rackets to suck money out of you. They impose arbitrary restrictions to force the action into the back rooms, which means that you have to let the girl lead it. So it would be the exception, not the rule, that one could play it the way Jestrite50 does.
But basically the same ideas do work in AMPs, everywhere I've ever been. I started shopping for pretty Asian RA's and getting them of script and making out with instead of negotiating with them, long before anyone was talking about GFE. And when we are done, I can always tell that our session was the most fun she's had in months. And yes, that aspect of it is important to me. The encounter is not unilateral, it has to be reciprocal.
Shailynn,
I does sound like you are going into much rougher places than I have ever been to. Where I live, the biggest risk you have in driving back from a strip club is that if a cop even suspects that you might be coming from a strip club, he is likely to pull you over just so he can hassle you. A guy alone in a car out there on the El Camino late at night, and with Sunnyvale's cops who act like the streets are private property, expect problems. So no, it is not like these places you are describing. If the crime rate is as high as you say it is in these places, then I think I'll be skipping them. No, it is generally not a problem to park on the street where I am. But, I do try to park in residential neighborhoods, if I can. There, no one knows who's car it is, or who is watching it. Very few problems.
Okay, but about your list of common sense items, I also have read lots and lots of reviews. And I've read innumerable discussion threads. As I see it, the common element which underlies all the bad experiences is that they went with the default program. They let the girl come up to them and "sell dances" to them. They accepted the offer. They were blown away by the girl's looks and skimpy attire, and so they stopped thinking. They didn't consider that there might be other ways to play it.
So sometimes this ended up in seriously crossed wires and a dispute over money. Other times it meant a girl acting upon a guy's anatomy to make him ejaculate, but without in any way opening up to him emotionally.
And then you have some TUSCLer's who insist, "The job of a stripper is to bust a nut." When challenged about this, they stand on the issue that it is you who are paying and that this is what you are paying for. They refuse to listen to ideas about other ways to play it.
So then what we end up with are these 'extras' clubs where what is being offered is both expensive and unsatisfying. And then this has further developed into an 'extras' form of FS.
Now you want to make fun of Rick Dugan. At least he knows that 'extras' is not the way to go. He knows not to accept dance offers. He knows that you have to steer it in some other direction.
Now I for one would not steer it the way he does. I like the idea of being able to score with the girl right where you first saw her. I think that is the primary purpose of strip clubs. No other environment offers this, casual and non-committal fraternizing, followed by the possibility of some real action right on site. To me that is the ultimate power trip, being able to walk in unexpected and to come on to a girl and have her go for it.
But you lose this if you accept the dance offers, or if you otherwise get involved in 'extras' mode interactions with a dancer. If you let it go that way, she has never let down her emotional barriers. You have no rapport with her, no common communications ground has been established.
What is your view about this Shailynn? With your extensive SC, OTC, and Escort experience, I would think you would be in whole hearted agreement. American strip clubs will improve, if we steer them that way.
And then as far as talking to them. My experience is that most of the time when a woman wants to make a good impression on a man she does more listening than talking. So telling her about myself is one of the proven ways of getting her off script. If she listens to me, as she always does, then the relationship between the two of us is being changed because she knows something about me, so then she is already off script.
If she does want to talk about the cares and concerns which make up her life, like issues pertaining to family and children, I will listen. Even though I'm probably not going to relate to such things the same way she does, I still don't consider such matters unimportant or uninteresting. I am looking at her as a whole woman, not just as some sort of a fembot. So I have to accept that she will have worldly concerns and that they will usually be expressed differently than the way a man would express them.
Part of what strip clubs are for, in my opinion, is to learn to interact with women, to learn how to bridge the major divides and to find mutually agreeable ways to communicate.
So no, I don't find myself needing to pretend to be interested in what she is saying. Within bounds and if she is willing to engage with me, I have no problem also allowing myself to be drawn into her world. She is there, available for me, and all dolled up, so I'm not also expecting her to completely leave behind her outside concerns and affairs. When I am telling her about myself, I know that she is going to be understanding such things differently because she is a woman. Again, finding mutually agreeable territory and ways of communicating is part of the experience, part of why I go to the strip club.
SJG
Stones ft Sheryl Crow, live, Honky Tonk Women
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mf4KBnSB…
How about those who have done it that way in a freer flowing environment, like say in the TJ Hong Kong Bar?
Besides in AMPs, there was for me long ago a wonderful experience with a very cute small Black girl at the SF New Century. It was more dramatic because I had spotted her out on the street and I figured she was an office worker, and since I was going for lunch I decided I would try and invite her to lunch. But then she ducked into the New Century.
So I ended up getting much more than I could have dreamed of, but this was in large measure because back then they did not have booths or back rooms. So we both just let it happen as she was sitting on my lap. No songs or agreed upon time. Sure I gave her money, as I know that that is why she works there. But there was never any verbal agreement about anything.
I was completely blown away with the fact that she was able to be that physically intimate with just whoever walks in from the street. The experience changed me completely. I think this is what strip clubs are really for, learning a sexual aesthetic, rather than for trying to get sexual gratification.
SJG
Clapton, full concert
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff8lz0z9…
So we have several approaches which have been floated:
1. JS69, bring your own girl experienced in such venues, and then enjoy stage side only.
2. Rick Dugan, decline all dance offers and stage side sitting, and use charm and dressing well to set up OTC
3. Jestrite50, enjoy with the girl in the front room, often in dark corners, and get to know her and proceed to a front room make out session. No booths or back rooms until after this. Either that, or move quickly to OTC encounters. This is what I like best. To me this is obvious.
And then there are others who seem to get outside relationships going with dancers quite quickly. Sometimes they call these girls CF's, but to me they sound more like GF's.
And then I suspect that Shadowcat is so well known in his clubs, and he picks his clubs so carefully, that when they get him into the VIP Room they really treat him well. It is not 'extras' or 'extras' styled FS.
Many different approaches, or Systems. They address the thing which Shailynn's System does not, how to decline and deflect dance offers.
To me, this is the most important thing, don't let her sell you 'extras", don't let her sell you 'extras' styled FS, don't let her sell you dances, don't let her sell you anything.
Instead you take the initiative and steer it in the direction of greater intimacy. Lots of different ways of doing this.
I think we should be discussing this. Of course where I live, there is no physical intimacy. And then in San Francisco, it is mostly clip joints for chumps.
So everybody who wants intimacy needs to have some sort of a system. You can't take it at face value or you just get your wallet sucked dry.
And you guys who let the girls sell you dances, 'extras', and 'extras' styled FS, you are degrading the environment for the rest of us.
I want these dives in other states where you can spot a girl you like and likely engage in real intimacy to last, so that I'm able to make it out there. I don't want the extras hounds to destroy them.
So I think talking about how to deflect and retarget the dance offers is the most important thing. What do you do when a super hottie comes up to you and asks, "Wanna dance?"
SJG
But we all need now to figure out how to turn down the 'extras' model and instead get to real intimacy. JS69 showed a way of rejecting 'extras'. Rick Dugan rejects 'extras'. And Jestrite50 rejects 'extras'.
The most important thing to learn is how to deflect the "wanna dance?" offers.
The extras hounds have been ruining these strip clubs, because they don't know any better.
SJG