Divorce questions
JohnSmith69
layin low but staying high
For those of you who have been divorced and don't mind answering a few questions:
How long have you been divorced?
2. Have you remarried or considered getting married again? Why or why not?
3. Are you glad you divorced?
4. Do you ever regret it at least to some extent, and if so why?
5. What advice would you give a guy contemplating divorce?
It will come as no surprise given some of my posts that I am contemplating a potential divorce from Mrs. Smith. But no I'm not gonna marry my dream stripper. This is not about her. It's been brewing since long before I met her.
Thanks to anyone willing to share their experience.
How long have you been divorced?
2. Have you remarried or considered getting married again? Why or why not?
3. Are you glad you divorced?
4. Do you ever regret it at least to some extent, and if so why?
5. What advice would you give a guy contemplating divorce?
It will come as no surprise given some of my posts that I am contemplating a potential divorce from Mrs. Smith. But no I'm not gonna marry my dream stripper. This is not about her. It's been brewing since long before I met her.
Thanks to anyone willing to share their experience.
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19 comments
2. Fuck no!
3. Fuck yes!
4. Fuck no!
5. Usually its 'cheaper to keep her', but sometimes its the only way.
I wouldn't let that hold you back. Neither if you are served by the present arrangement. One thing that your lawyer will tell you will be extraordinarily painful for you. He, or she, will tell you that you need to avoid any "romantic" entanglements until the process is complete. This will even mean the Dream Stripper. You can bet your wife will have PIs out scouting for anything that can be used against you in negotiations - and to turn your kids against you.
Man, I know this is hard to hear, but I'm also betting that you have already at least fleetingly thought of this. You are not a stupid person and you are not that clueless either. I'm not sure the DS will understand; just make sure she knows that it isn't her and that it's not permanent, at least from your standpoint.
I have personally had more to do with lawyers in the last five years to last me the rest of my life. (Thank God it's estate matters and not divorce!)
Good luck. I don't envy you the process, but I think it's essential for both of you.
I am glad that I divorced and I never regret it for even a second. It was an absolute necessity. The marriage had become a death trap. The longer it continued, the more harm which was being done to both parties.
No I will never marry again, not even at gun point. What marriage amounts to is signing yourself into a system of slavery. You no longer have sovereign citizenship. Marriage should be abolished in accordance with the 13th and 14th Amendments.
Now sure, when I am with the Vietnamese massage girls, it is impossible not to feel that I want to marry them. And the emotional dynamics with some are starting to resemble what I had long long ago shared with my wife, before marriage. What I am getting from them is a kind of psychosexual healing. And I have explained this to them. I am finding of course that my own ejaculation is completely unimportant. Of course they really emphasize this. It is their standard offering. So they go the extra distance to make sure it happens. Likewise tab A in slot B is not that important at this time. What is important is just cuddling together and kissing, even light kissing, and talking. That is what is doing it for me now. It is the engaging with their emotions and feelings too.
Even though I am still not being completely open with them ... yet, they can still tell that I am being genuine and sincere and that I really do like them and that I really do mean well. So they see the money more as a donation than as actual payment for anything. So they've made much less of an issue of it than I've ever seen before.
I talk about lots of stuff about myself and other things. I tend to talk about my own life in ways that women are going to more easily relate to. And I talk about my visions and plans for the future.
If I can maintain contact with this group for a while more, they are each going to be taking turns keeping me warm at night and making my breakfast. Women like that. Upgrading from GFE to GF is very simple. It is the way the water naturally flows. The reason it doesn't happen more is that most guys are not open with them. Most guys treat them like vending machines, and you can read the posts here on TUSCL from people who think like this. But I am doing my best now to be open with them and eventually I will be completely open.
I talked to one, HA, on the phone yesterday. She is now unsuspended and I'll be seeing her very soon. She was being nice on the phone, but also talking like a real girl friend, a bit naggy and bitchy. Of a paper I wrote and gave her at our last session, she said that she read it but does not understand it. I told her that then I'll just have to sit her down on my lap and explain it to her line by line.
These interactions are very helpful for me. But still I am not going to marry again. Instead, I have thought long and hard, during my years of marriage and after. I am working to build an alliance between men and women, and it will work differently. These massage girls will be some of the first inductees. They each have had this explained to them in detail, though I'm sure that they don't fully understand ... yet.
I do respect the basic facts, like for example that women are largely judged by age and beauty, and so they want to get hitched early. Likewise that the commercial, financial, and industrial realms are predominantly the realms of men. So few women are serious about developing real careers. They see a job as being the same as a career, and so they don't go very far. As such, they expect to be supported. I accept this. It goes on in marriage, and it can be done in other ways too. P4P and Marriage are not the only options.
And besides, what else is money for, except for handing to women. This is probably why it was originally invented.
At these massage sessions, usually now the money is handed to her at the end, and it feels good to do this.
Guys pay escorts with the money in an envelop and placed on the mantle. How silly. If just giving her money is that difficult, what exactly is it they do plan to be doing with her?
I place the money in the girl's hands just like I am giving her some of my own life blood, and I love doing it.
But I also let them know that with what I am building, they will be taken care of much much better. It is just that the situation will be completely different.
With my wife I held out the olive branch of partnership for so many years. But she didn't want partnership. She wanted manipulation and control. She wanted the external form of the marriage, but she did not want there to be an actual relationship.
Beyond a point I drew a line and refused to cooperate at all with manipulation and control. Some of this had to do with two failed courses of marriage counseling. I held the line for a very long time. But I kept holding out that olive branch, if only she would let us communicate to the point that we can become actual partners. She never accepted.
Today I am still holding out the olive branch to her. That is, though things have irreparably changed and they will never be like before, I still want us to be mutually supportive. I want to help her in career development and open doors for her and I want us to be able to each show the world that we have grown beyond what we once were, and even that we each have grown beyond the need for marriage.
So I try to communicate with her via email. Email only as the telephone would be too explosive. Email is safer.
But still, it is just like when we were married. She refuses to open up and get real. She still accuses me of never wanting her and all other nonsense. She is always accusing me like she thinks she can read my mind. She accuses me of thought crimes. It is just like it was decades ago in the offices of the marriage counselors.
I have felt guilty about dumping her by the roadside. That is an extremely difficult thing to do. This is part of why I want to mend fences now. It is also why I tried so hard and continued so long holding out the olive branch.
When you are in a difficult situation, what will you have when it is finally over?
What you will have is the integrity and character that you showed in handling it while it was going on.
I always knew that I would have to live the rest of my life with how I handled the situation. I knew that the kind of life I would be able to build after would depend on how I had conducted myself.
As for my wife, do you remember Armistad Maupin's "Tales of the City"? PBS made it into a mini-series. It was originally newspaper fiction about the 1970's in San Francisco and the emergence of gay culture. There are actually several books and I have read them all or listened to them on audio tape. There a lots of gender bending characters in it. One memorable one is this gay man, Michael Toliver. He goes on and on and on about how he wants to find Mr. Right and all. He talks just like a woman. Most of the time he is talking to women.
Well in the later books he is further developed. It is actually he who sabotages every single relationship he gets into. It is all talk. He doesn't know what he wants. Mostly he seems to want to protect himself with this external act.
My wife always made like relationship, marriage, and family are everything. But it is all bullshit. It is she who makes communications impossible and who is always acting against good results. She does it so that she will not have to face her own feelings. Most of these seem to be childhood fears of abandonment. She wants manipulation and control, because this way her feelings are not exposed to herself.
I also have seen a much darker side of my own parents than I had perceived before. They live in a nightmare death trap which is going to continue until they each become fossilized. It really is not even right to say that they are alive now. They are animated dead, and marriage is the main reason for this.
Well seeing that I survived such a marriage myself and did get out, they have turned 100% against me. I am a complete threat to them and their so called survival in their own nightmare.
I spend lots of time now trying to understand what it was that allowed me to get into such a marriage, and with such a partner. What it comes down to is emotional child abuse. And so I try to understand this and to do something about it. I am trying to mobilize people to obtain legal redress. No more therapy or recovery, instead legal, legislative, and political action.
This is why I jumped at the chance to help put one guy into San Quentin, a Pentecostal man who was sexually fondling his daughters and at the same time blacksheeping the eldest daughter and saying it was all her fault, and doing this with the blessing of his church.
No case in our county's history has had so much outside contribution to the strategy and interpretation.
JS69,
Based on your recent posts I was planning to ask you something anyway, and this thread is perfect for it.
I know that you have decades of SC and OTC experience and that your sex life has been fantastic, and I respect this.
But I still get the impression that maybe with this Dream Stripper that you are going further than you ever have before. I mean not just the sex, but the frequency with which you are seeing her, the amount of time it has gone on for, and the amount of time you are spending with her. Of course even that you are paying her, she is still your mistress and the emotional involvement level can still be very high.
Am I correct in presuming that you have never gone this far before?
As far as dysfunctional marriages, I do believe that they have to be dissolved. You've seen my posts to Mr. LDK. You have to publicly stand up for what you believe in. There are marriage counselors, and then there are divorce lawyers. If one does not work, then you need the other.
And then of course the worst thing is to try and justify staying together because of a child. That is using the child in the worst possible sort of a way. How many decades and how much trauma will that child need to go through before they can really understand how they have been used and how this has effected them.
In the middle-class family it is the child who is the exploited worker. It is the child who is being used, as something for the adults to hide behind and gain legitimacy through.
The best is for the child to see that each of it's parents is continuing to grow and living a happy and healthy life. Sometimes divorce is a necessary emancipation before this can occur. Trying to hide behind a child is always an atrocity.
Excellent thread and I hope people continue to add to it.
SJG
My posts on JS69's Marriage Thread
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…
Steely Dan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OX5rlZl8…
Dawg thanks for the advice but I can't drop dream stripper even if you're right. If dropping her were the cost of divorce I'd stay married. It'll be hard for them to find her but if they do so be it.
SJG, yes I've never gone anything like this far with a dancer before.
I answer to no one now.
Finally, line up the very best lawyer you can find. It will be money well spent.
Yes, when feels "right"
Yes!
No way, marriage was over and kid would have seen fighting instead of united co-parents
Get your $ straight (alimony/CS), rebuild relationship with ex as co-parents based on trust, mutual respect, communication. If there's chance could salvage marriage give it a fair shot, you don't want any regrets.
1) A little over a year now.
2) Would NEVER consider getting remarried. Why? Because I now know how MISERABLE I was being married. I would never, ever, do it again. Just live with a girl. Don't marry her.
3) VERY glad to be divorced!! The freedom to do anything at anytime YOU want to is very liberating!
4) The only regret I have is I wish I had gotten divorced sooner. I tried to stick it out for the kids. But kids are pretty perceptive. They knew things were very bad.
5) One bit of advice is give someone is that the first year after your divorce is final can be very, very difficult. Extremely difficult adjusting to many changes in your life. BUT... It does get better. But that time after your divorce is going to probably be one of the most stressful times in your life.
However, if you can get through this time period without killing your ex... Life will get much, much better. But you have to go through that tough time and I don't know of any good way to make it easier.
Good luck.
It sounds like your marriage IS over, the only question is if it's practical to make it official.
I know you said you've been thinking long and hard on this and you probably have thought about the finances, but have you actually crunched the numbers yet? Actually taken the time to see them?
Does your wife work? If she does, will she make enough to support herself? Will she need some financial help in any sort of interim the courts might dictate? Is she the sort of woman who will sue for an allowance to "keep her in the lifestyle she's accustomed to"? Is she the sort of woman who will claim all of the community property and leave you with all of the community bills? Are there any bills, such as college student loans for your kids, that she can dump on you and you alone? What are the chances that she can knock you so far out of the $350k Club that you'll have to live in someone's basement and subsist on Ramen noodles and hot dogs for any length of time?
Putting stuff like this on paper can make it seem all the more real than just contemplating it.
I have to agree with Dawg, too: Putting your DS -- and your strip club habit -- on hiatus during the whole divorce process is probably a damn good idea. You could already be giving your wife enough ammunition; you don't want to give her any more, not when she's going to be actively looking for it. And despite her drug use, your DS sounds like she's pretty smart and resourceful; if she's serious about keeping you as a sugar daddy, she'll wait. If you're afraid of losing her... Well, that's your choice, yours and little John's. Remember which one really needs to do the thinking in what can be an adversarial divorce.
Good luck, John. I really do hope all of this works out for you.
JS69,
First of all, I don't think you can decide to do it or not to do it on the basis of money, any amount of money or any percentage of your money. Something's are just so serious and so important that money cannot effect your decision. I mean, it is your own sovereignty, your own personhood. And then, no good comes to your wife or your kids by being two faced.
Better if less money goes to lawyers though. Better if it goes to your wife and your kids. But usually for people who are financially solvent and so they have money, lawyers are necessary.
I think if reconciliation is possible, then that should be explored. But staying married because of money is nuts, and it is also dishonest.
The reason I ask about you and the Dream Stripper is I suspected that the level of Emotional Intimacy was getting so great that it was changing you.
Emotional Intimacy, @IME doesn't seem to understand it.
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…
From where I sit, it has always sounded like the reason things work so well with you and the DS is simply because she can tell that you really like her. I mean, sure you are paying her. But money doesn't buy what you have with her.
So it would seem plausible that the relationship is changing you, so that you come to see that relations between men and women don't have to be horrible, and that P4P does not have to be the only alternative, and so that you might have come to the point that continuing your marriage is no longer acceptable.
For me it happened in stages. I have always maintained that the purpose of SC's is not sexual gratification, but the learning of a sexual aesthetic.
I was in SF for a convention, a stupid convention, so I excused myself and decided to go and eat somewhere. So I was out and about getting near the noon hour. I was about to go into a Subway store when I spotted this really cute black girl. She was in high heeled pumps and pants.
So I thought, "Lets see where she is going and then maybe I can invite her to lunch." There are lots of architecture offices around there, and based on how she was dressed I figured she worked in one.
Man was I ever wrong. I laid way back and followed and she went into the New Century.
So I waited some, and then went in and got her name from the door man. I had to wait a while before her turn came. She ended her set by doing open tongue kissing with this other girl. Seeing that really effected me. She was wearing the same pumps she'd walked all the way to work in.
So soon she was sitting on my lap. I told her how much it effected me seeing her kissing that other girl. She was quick to tell me how much she was enjoying it. And soon we were kissing and kissing and kissing.
I then told her the story, about how I had spotted a girl and was going to invite her to lunch, deliberately withholding any mention of race or how she was dressed. Then I described the route, and her face started to change, and then I described how she was dressed and she really started to blush and then to try to hide her face. So then she really started to laugh and then we kept on kissing.
Like always, what I wanted was to take her home with me, and it certainly seemed like that was what she wanted too.
This was back before Terrance Hallinan and booths and back rooms. So this was as far as it went with her. But I was very deeply effected. I could see right away that this girl was very different from me, and different from my wife too. She could just start making out with a total stranger, simply because it was what he seemed to want. She was offering a kind of sexual healing, a kind of an aesthetic. She showed me that things did not have to be how they were.
If they'd of had booths or back rooms, we would have done more, but it also would have been very expensive. As it was, the total cost was insignificant, but the effect on me was huge.
Then there was my first exposure to the Latina Escorts. I just didn't know it at the time. This was not at one of the table dancing places. It was at the Hanky Panky in Redwood City. That had actually been part of the table dancing covert circuit. But I knew nothing about that. It actually had been a place where they were doing FS in the front room. But I knew nothing about this. And the girl I took a liking to, was one of the front runners in front room FS, and she was one of the ones arrested, and she was one of the ones the cops did FS with as part of the investigation. But I knew nothing about any of this either.
At that time the Hanky Panky had become an advertised and law compliant strip club. Or I should say, it tried to be. I would notice that dancers would dance for a guy and then shortly after they would leave. And I would notice that the girls would tell you where they lived. At first I thought it was just because this girl had had a bit too much and she didn't understand how she sounded.
So anyway, I was there, the other girls were not of that much interest to me. Then she came out of the dressing room. This was the first time I had ever seen the full height platform sandal stripper shoes. And she was in thigh highs too.
I felt an unbelievable attraction to her. So I sat down next to her at the bar, very unaccustomed to approaching girls in many many years. I asked her to dance for me. So I never even saw her stage set.
This was to be a bikini air dance. It cost $5. ( I would later understand that when the cost is that low, the reason the girls work there is to set up OTC's, and that this is common in dives. )
Now usually I had always been extremely well behaved in such places. This time for some reason I just felt the urge to be insolent and to try and express my attraction to her, and so I started blowing right into her face at close range, and into her crack when she was turned around. She let me do all of this and she concluded by giving me a little kiss on the cheek.
A year later at one of the table dancing shows in San Jose I would be open tongue kissing with one of her sisters as she was trying to line me up for immediate OTC.
But just that first night, that she would let me blow into her face as she kept looking directly into my eyes, and just the warmth in her face, it really changed me. I got a sexual aesthetic, not sexual gratification, and certainly nothing like an LDK.
I was completely blown away by how physically and spiritually open this Latina could be with a total stranger. She was not like me, and she was not like my wife. She showed me that things between men and women could be different.
It would be many months later in extensive conversations with a black dancer, in any group black women are usually the smartest and the best communicators, that I learned about there being a whole group of related Latinas, about the table dancing shows, about front room FS at the Hanky Panky, about who got arrested, and about how dirty the cops are. I would start going to these table dancing shows at a number of San Jose's Mexican Bars. I went there to learn from people who were different from me and different from my wife. In that environment most of the dances are openly advertising for OTC, and the onsite dances can get quite mutually interactive. And always for $1 at a time too.
And then of course there was my previous AMP experience. I sessioned with RA's in three counties, sometimes pushing it to my financial limit. But as I never started before I was seeing the woman I would marry, there were lines I never crossed. I never did try to civilianize any of them. I never saw any of them outside. I never accepted any of the exquisite escort session auditions that some of them made.
But what I did get was learning. I learned that life can potentially be different.
And then with verbal flirting with very interesting strippers in our local no touching clubs, and then some other San Francisco experiences, I again learned.
That is why I say, P4P is not the answer, it is just a way of learning and exploring.
So again, I suspect that you are being changed by your love affair with your DS, and that that actually is very positive.
Divorce is extremely stressful, and even if you did not intend to cut her off, the stress and the live change it ensues, could destroy your relationship with your DS.
Here were I live their is the Self-Help Family Court Clinic. You are best to get there before 6am and sit down in line outside the building. Once in, a lawyer can help you fill out the first round of papers. This starts the divorce. You can ask for a Property Control Order, to prevent liquidation. You can also ask for any Child Custody Arrangement you want.
Then you turn this into the court and then come back and get it in a couple of days. Then you will have the papers for your ex to be served with. Anyone over 18yo and not party to the case can do this service in person, and then you turn in the proof of service. You will have from this a first court date, just a Case Management Conference. At that time the parties can make their requests pertaining to the Property Control Order and any temporary Spousal Support.
Now the poorest of people just divorce by abandonment. They call this, "Poor Man's Divorce".
But I would say that someone who is financially solvent and owns property would still be well served by obtaining a lawyer.
Once you have had your spouse served, I would say that you are Separated and that you can screw all the women you want. But it may not work that way. The stress and intensity is beyond belief. Also, women will be able to see that you are going thru hell, and usually they will shun you. They chase after married men because they know they are not available. But they shun the newly divorced.
My .02.
SJG
Rolling Stones, Hot Rocks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8XV1mqa…
1. Black, San Francisco lap sitting and DFKing, and then getting the best info from a black
2. Latina, table dancing circuit, beloved escorts who are all maximum GFE
3. Asian, massage parlors, and backing them up against walls and kissing them since long before GFE was ever invented
Actually with flirting with local strippers and SF stripper experiences, there are lots of white bohemian girls in there too. But with the more kicker or white trash type, I usually don't get along with them. I think there is something to the fact that so many of the key experiences which were life changing were with women who were beyond a racial divide.
SJG